LDS Freedom Forum

keep the faith wrote:“The very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom” (p. 318); So there was an apostasy that commenced? Interesting. Makes sense. “In all your trials, tribulations and sickness, in all your sufferings, even unto death, be careful you don’t betray God, be careful you don’t betray the priesthood” (p. 318); Don't betray God, nor the Priesthood. Are you saying "Leaders = Priesthood?" I do not conflate the two, they are not the same. Early in the church offices in the church could be filled by those who did not have the priesthood. So betraying priesthood must be something other than offices in the church. “If there are any uncharitable feelings, any lack of confidence, then pride, arrogance and envy will soon be manifested; confusion must inevitably prevail, and the authorities of the Church set at naught” (p. 319). This happened and they conspired to kill the prophet. Just like Christ.This seems straightforward.

Isn't it sad that we've ignored and apostatized from what Joseph restored?

For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

We live in a world that is continually in atrophe. Yet all is not lost, we are not cast off forever. It's too bad we discarded Lectures on Faith. I wonder what will be next?

One thing I keep noticing on this forum and in the church is what I call a blanket statement. If Joseph said it, it applies to all the prophets and apostles without question. Joseph was THE mouthpiece for our day. That hasn't changed. We've changed. Take away the revelations that Joseph gave us, and we have almost nothing. Joseph was different. He was a dispensation head.

clarkkent14 wrote:
One thing I keep noticing on this forum and in the church is what I call a blanket statement. If Joseph said it, it applies to all the prophets and apostles without question. Joseph was THE mouthpiece for our day. That hasn't changed. We've changed. Take away the revelations that Joseph gave us, and we have almost nothing. Joseph was different. He was a dispensation head.

Amen!!

Having lived through some dark mists in my days. Having been in mists so dense, that the only way through was to cry God for direction. I write these words. There are teachings in the BOM that are in contradiction to the teachings of the Church. There are teachings in the Church that are in conflict with the teachings of the BOM. Some teachings found in the BOM which are direct from Christ, are in conflict with the church. Those who have not walked the path their self, will have to make decisions based upon incomplete information. The making of those decisions will not be silenced at death. I believe that those who put off learning truth here will not have the help on the other side as we do here to make correct decisions. To find truth one has to ask uncomfortable questions at times. To grow one has to question former believes to make sure of truth. When I read about the Bro. of Jared, or 3rd Nephi. I have to ask myself, do I do what they did. When on a lower level I read about Nephi, son of Lehi, Do I do what they did. How much of the blessings of the Gospel do I display in my life? If a mustard seed of faith can move a mountain, honestly, how much faith do I have? I have heard many, many, stand and tell their knowledge of the truth of things. If they show no faith how can their be knowledge, the step after faith? Refusing to approach the mist is what Lamen was all about. He had his preconceived notions of truth and would not make the effort to learn if those preconceived notions of truth were true. The children of Israel had their own preconceived notion of the truth, and approached the problem same as Lamen. If God set it up that the children of Israel had to walk through the mist, why would not we. Many converts have waded through some mists, when they join the Church. Is that all the mist their is? I would suggest that until you have the relationship 3 Nephi, or the bro. of Jarid have, all is not done.

superdan wrote:... I learned that there was a purge of conservatives from the church (a bunch of excommunications, hundreds perhaps over a thousand) because they took Ezra Taft Benson's warnings to heart about a secret combination taking over our country and us being under condemnation for not understanding the book of Mormon and started living as they believed. Elder Jepson (a GA) issued a list of 15 signs to watch out for as "signs of apostasy" which included stuff like obsession with years supply of food, membership in the John Birch Society, home school their children, attend the American Study Group, study Isaiah more than usual, obsession with last-days prophecy etc. You know... LDSFF stuff...

keep the faith wrote:Superdan is portraying this situation in the early 90's as a witch hunt that the church embarked upon to persecute innocent people who were following Pres. Bensons advice and becoming proactive in political and spiritual preparedness. This is just not true. I am very aware of what was happening at this period of time with many disenchanted Saints who began to speak out publicly against the church and its leadership in very uncomplimentary ways. Google Jim Harmston and the TLC church. Google Sterling Allen and his blog. There were several members at this time who became wolves in sheeps clothing...

There is some truth to what "keep the faith" is saying about this situation. I only know about it based on talking with some of the people that were directly involved in the American Study Group (even some of the organizers) and while most of them fit that 'conservative' profile superdan mentioned that was issued by Elder Jepson, there seemed to be a clear difference between those who got excommunicated and those who didn't.. it wasn't just about 'conservative' principles.

BrianM wrote:

superdan wrote:... I learned that there was a purge of conservatives from the church (a bunch of excommunications, hundreds perhaps over a thousand) because they took Ezra Taft Benson's warnings to heart about a secret combination taking over our country and us being under condemnation for not understanding the book of Mormon and started living as they believed. Elder Jepson (a GA) issued a list of 15 signs to watch out for as "signs of apostasy" which included stuff like obsession with years supply of food, membership in the John Birch Society, home school their children, attend the American Study Group, study Isaiah more than usual, obsession with last-days prophecy etc. You know... LDSFF stuff...

keep the faith wrote:Superdan is portraying this situation in the early 90's as a witch hunt that the church embarked upon to persecute innocent people who were following Pres. Bensons advice and becoming proactive in political and spiritual preparedness. This is just not true. I am very aware of what was happening at this period of time with many disenchanted Saints who began to speak out publicly against the church and its leadership in very uncomplimentary ways. Google Jim Harmston and the TLC church. Google Sterling Allen and his blog. There were several members at this time who became wolves in sheeps clothing...

There is some truth to what "keep the faith" is saying about this situation. I only know about it based on talking with some of the people that were directly involved in the American Study Group (even some of the organizers) and while most of them fit that 'conservative' profile superdan mentioned that was issued by Elder Jepson, there seemed to be a clear difference between those who got excommunicated and those who didn't.. it wasn't just about 'conservative' principles.

Thank you Brian. You are very correct about this clear difference. Stake Presidents and Bishops in areas like Sanpete County were facing situations where their ward members were leaving their families because "the Spirit" was telling them to take on additional spiritual partners and many were gathering for apocalyptic events that were being prophesied of by the likes of Harmston and some of his followers that would be occurring shortly. They were telling people that the church was fracturing and the divisions were happening and the church was going through the cleansing period prophesied of. Of course the current leadership were going to be cleansed because of their supposed wickedness. The One mighty and strong was on his way to clean up the place. It was a mess. These poor church leaders were being deluged with all kinds of bizzare things. Alters and prayer circles were being set up in homes and bedrooms. And on and on. Those who did not speak out against the church but were heeding the Prophets counsel to be physically and spiritually prepared did not have issues with their church leaders or the church.

Sorry about derailing this thread even further. We all know how bad things turned out for Harmston and those who splintered off with him but that doesn't mean you have to liken, everyone unto him. We know there will be false prophets arise, before the last days, but we must also remember that will be true prophets sent as well. Isaiah has foretold this. The test is truly difficult. A false spirit can come upon a person. That is why we must become familiar with the real spirit of God and also with the scriptures.

One thing Isaiah tells us is that God will send his servant, to save those who call upon his name. If the church leaders, who are in place now, were slated for the job, then God would not need to send this servant. I am afraid that those who are not familiar with scripture will reject the servant, when he comes.

Thomas wrote:Sorry about derailing this thread even further. We all know how bad things turned out for Harmston and those who splintered off with him but that doesn't mean you have to liken, everyone unto him. We know there will be false prophets arise, before the last days, but we must also remember that will be true prophets sent as well. Isaiah has foretold this. The test is truly difficult. A false spirit can come upon a person. That is why we must become familiar with the real spirit of God and also with the scriptures.

One thing Isaiah tells us is that God will send his servant, to save those who call upon his name. If the church leaders, who are in place now, were slated for the job, then God would not need to send this servant. I am afraid that those who are not familiar with scripture will reject the servant, when he comes.

This was more or less the claim of the Harmston bunch as well. God was going to be sending his servant outside of the established order of the church to put things in order. People were being convinced that the LDS milk drinkers and their corporate Prophets had gone astray and were vomiting all over the tables. They no longer were functioning in a righteous capacity or teaching the pure doctrines of Zion taught by Joseph. Isaiahs types and shadows were becoming a reality. The scriptural warnings of Prophets of old were in motion. Persecution of the humble followers was being facilitated by the evil church leaders like Elder Jepsen and many Stake Presidents and Bishops. Their coming after your temple recommends. Don't fear. You are a martyr for the cause of Zion. The Lords strange act was about to happen. BLAH BLAH BLAH. Excuse me while I go puke. I know a false spirit when I see it. These guys were full of them. D&C 42:11 will save someone a lot of grief.

So your message is that Isaiah is wrong? Why does Christ command us to read Isaiah. Why doesn't he command us to follow the living prophet? Wouldn't that be so much more simple?

As for D&C 42, it is talking about missionary work.

Read this scripture and cross reference with Isaiah and the Book of Mormon.

Doctrine and Covenants 85:7

7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by lot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

Keep in mind, Joseph Smith did not restore all things. The sealed portion of the plates are still withheld from us. The great and marvelous work will resume.

3 Nephi 21:

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

I think we should pay heed when three volumes of scripture tell us about a coming event.

Isaiah 52:

12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the Lord will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your rearward.

13 ¶Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.

14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:

Much of Isaiah revolves around this end time servant.

So......Isaiah prophesies events that will occur before the Second Coming. Christ Himself has commanded us to study Isaiah. Some misguided men have taken the prophesies and led people astray. Therefore, we should disregard the prophesies found in Isaiah, or else we might be led astray.
Makes no sense to me.
I also believe that His Servant will be sent, and will come with power and authority, and many will not recognize him because they won't even ask God if this man is His Servant, because they think they already know the truth.

Scroll down on the wikipedia link for an incomplete list of people who have claimed to be One Mighty and Strong

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Mighty_and_Strong

I have no idea what One Mighty and Strong means.

Not surprising that there are so many counterfeits. It is a great way to throw people off the trail. Just like putting crazy conspiracy stories out there so that when a real one comes along, no one believes it. It is counted to be among the crazies.

The real one will walk the walk and not just talk. The test will be in the doing.

keep the faith wrote:

BrianM wrote:

superdan wrote:... I learned that there was a purge of conservatives from the church (a bunch of excommunications, hundreds perhaps over a thousand) because they took Ezra Taft Benson's warnings to heart about a secret combination taking over our country and us being under condemnation for not understanding the book of Mormon and started living as they believed. Elder Jepson (a GA) issued a list of 15 signs to watch out for as "signs of apostasy" which included stuff like obsession with years supply of food, membership in the John Birch Society, home school their children, attend the American Study Group, study Isaiah more than usual, obsession with last-days prophecy etc. You know... LDSFF stuff...

keep the faith wrote:Superdan is portraying this situation in the early 90's as a witch hunt that the church embarked upon to persecute innocent people who were following Pres. Bensons advice and becoming proactive in political and spiritual preparedness. This is just not true. I am very aware of what was happening at this period of time with many disenchanted Saints who began to speak out publicly against the church and its leadership in very uncomplimentary ways. Google Jim Harmston and the TLC church. Google Sterling Allen and his blog. There were several members at this time who became wolves in sheeps clothing...

There is some truth to what "keep the faith" is saying about this situation. I only know about it based on talking with some of the people that were directly involved in the American Study Group (even some of the organizers) and while most of them fit that 'conservative' profile superdan mentioned that was issued by Elder Jepson, there seemed to be a clear difference between those who got excommunicated and those who didn't.. it wasn't just about 'conservative' principles.

Thank you Brian. You are very correct about this clear difference. Stake Presidents and Bishops in areas like Sanpete County were facing situations where their ward members were leaving their families because "the Spirit" was telling them to take on additional spiritual partners and many were gathering for apocalyptic events that were being prophesied of by the likes of Harmston and some of his followers that would be occurring shortly. They were telling people that the church was fracturing and the divisions were happening and the church was going through the cleansing period prophesied of. Of course the current leadership were going to be cleansed because of their supposed wickedness. The One mighty and strong was on his way to clean up the place. It was a mess. These poor church leaders were being deluged with all kinds of bizzare things. Alters and prayer circles were being set up in homes and bedrooms. And on and on. Those who did not speak out against the church but were heeding the Prophets counsel to be physically and spiritually prepared did not have issues with their church leaders or the church.

OK so explain to me again why Avraham Gileadi was ex'd? This isn't black and white like that. I'm sure there were some in the sample of 100s perhaps over a thousand who fit the profile you describe. I'm sure others didn't. Honestly I'm not trying to get people up in arms over what happened in the 90s. Only to see what is coming here. That's why we should turn this discussion back to Isaiah and a discussion of his prophecy FOR IT HAS BEEN AND IT SHALL BE OR PERHAPS MORE APPROPRIATELY PUT IS HAPPENING NOW.

One of the main things Isaiah explains is that the true followers of Christ will get persecuted by those of their own house who say and do not. They will be told they are wicked when they are in fact the righteous. It is a double shame. We've transfigured the holy word and just this September ex'd probably the most strong and clear teacher of the true doctrine of Christ since Joseph Smith. Who is next? Anyone who won't submit or conform?

Read Bro. Gileadi's testimony very closely here superdan. He did not do as so many others who faced church disciplinary action in the 90's did in trying to embarrass or discredit the church publicly for taking such action. Are church leaders perfect in every instance? No. But mistakes are rectified in Priesthood order as was the case with Bro. Gileadi. As he states in his testimony He does not appreciate being used by others to try and bring condemnation or discredit to the church that he is still in full fellowship with. I'm sure he would tell you that himself were he here.

http://avrahamgileaditestimony.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

by marks logic, Christianity cannot be true because of all the sects. Christ cannot be Christ because of all the false Christs.

KTF wrote:Read Bro. Gileadi's testimony very closely here superdan.

KTF - Thank you thank you for posting that. I hope everyone on here reads the link you posted. In my opinion it proves exactly what I was saying. It completely jives with everything I learned when I spoke to him. (BTW he says "several thousand excoms." Unlikely they were all or even half sordid polygamists starting new churches. Probably a broad spectrum. I find that very alarming.)

Summary: He plainly stated what he thought the scriptures are saying and got ex'd because of it. QUOTE: "Because to certain defenders of religious orthodoxy Isaiah’s message has seemed controversial, therefore by them I have been deemed controversial."

Here are two more links to articles that probably support KTF's perspectives which Brian sent me.
"LDS Church Disciplines Ultra-Conservative Survivalists" ( page 5 of https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-con ... -63-73.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) and this: "Radicalized Prophets of the Far, Far Right" ( page 6 of https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/129-34-45.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) (that whole paper is interesting "The Making of Immanuel, Brian David Mitchell and the Mormon Fringe"

As you read the above articles remember it's easy to lump "several thousand" people into the same fringe box, label them and cast them off. That would be folly. I encourage everyone to do as much research as possible on this whole thing and pay attention to what is happening in our church right now relative to Isaiah's message.

KTF - You need to wake up and shake off the blindness. You're the one on the attack. No one here is trying to "to embarrass or discredit the church publicly". I am engaged in an honest discourse about the meaning of the scriptures particularly the book of Isaiah which is relevant to our day. If you do not understand where you are located on the map you will not make your destination.

A call to repentance is never well accepted. This is proven by how many are in denial about Isaiah and Moroni's warnings.

Now - I agree to disagree. I'll give you the last word and try to not touch the subject of the conservative purge again on this thread. And hopefully we can get back to the substance of Isaiah.

How about we figure out who this is talking about?

Isaiah 3 wrote:1 For, behold, the Lord, the Lord of hosts, doth take away from Jerusalem and from Judah (the modern parallel is the ordinance keeping temple people) the stay and the staff, the whole stay of bread, and the whole stay of water,

2 The mighty man, and the man of war, the judge, and the prophet, and the prudent, and the ancient,

3 The captain of fifty, and the honourable man, and the counsellor, and the cunning artificer, and the eloquent orator.

4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.

5 And the people shall be oppressed, every one by another, and every one by his neighbour: the child shall behave himself proudly against the ancient, and the base against the honourable.

Today is a repeat of 20 years ago. And the difference is... ?

BrianM wrote:Today is a repeat of 20 years ago. And the difference is... ?

Very little difference in my book Brian. One post after another besmirching the church and the current leadership by making accusatory, unflattering and condescending references and innuendo's aimed at the COJCOLDS and its Prophet leaders. Painting them as fallen and babylonian. Exactly what was being done by the disgruntled apostates of the 90's. They loved attaching Isaiah's words to their barrage of negativism as well. Nothing really changes when the spirit of charity is lost.

Thanks KTF. I sincerely hope that is your last word on the subject.

Now ... Let's discuss some more Isaiah. Who is this describing? Any takers? What is the modern parallel? Is he saying the actual Zion where the Lord is? Or is he saying that sarcastically because we call ourselves Zion? What does this really mean? Obvious disclaimer: Understand what you are getting into if you comment. People don't like it when you point this stuff out.

Isaiah 3 wrote:16 ¶Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: (Are they walking and mincing in Zion literally or just into Zions Bank?)

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

superdan wrote:Thanks KTF. I sincerely hope that is your last word on the subject.

Now ... Let's discuss some more Isaiah. Who is this describing? Any takers? What is the modern parallel? Is he saying the actual Zion where the Lord is? Or is he saying that sarcastically because we call ourselves Zion? What does this really mean? Obvious disclaimer: Understand what you are getting into if you comment. People don't like it when you point this stuff out.

Isaiah 3 wrote:16 ¶Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet: (Are they walking and mincing in Zion literally or just into Zions Bank?)

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.

18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,

19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,

21 The rings, and nose jewels,

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

25 Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

26 And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground.

One has to ask, why is this passage also included in the Book of Mormon? It can only mean that Nephi knew who this prophecy was directed at and wanted to make sure they had a second chance to read it.