LDS Freedom Forum

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.
There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.
There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

The ability is there if we need it. Remember, Christ is there also. Relax and enjoy life.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

I would like to add that if you take this exactly as he worded it, then he is in fact 100% correct.

What I was addressing is how you and many others are interpreting it.
The idol worship I mentioned wasn't that of GAS, but that of those who misinterpret what he said.

Let me attempt to enlighten you on this subject...

In the Church all officers are sustained by the body and retain their standing by consent of the body.
If a time ever comes that any officers in the Church err, it is the responsibility of the body to pluck them out.
There's a reason why anyone in the lay membership can find themselves in positions of Church leadership.
This is because it is generally expected for everyone in the body to cultivate themselves fully in God's Laws and ways.
God has placed this responsibility onto the members of the Church and given us a system of justice for it to play out.
The level of glory Zion is to be based upon is the Celestial and in this kingdom all are on equal grounds and standing.
In such a union as this the officers over the various appendages are for the sake of keeping order, not barking orders.

This is why Brigham Young made the following remarks:
"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually." (JD 9:150)

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves." (JD 4:368)


So, I utterly reject your interpretation of the George Albert Smith quote.

And, let me distinguish how what he actually says is 100% correct and how you are misinterpreting it.

Notice that he always make explicit reference the leader he would give deference to was a leader that is actually anointed by the Lord directly. This is a reference to the Lord's Anointed Prophet. This office and mantle of authority isn't an office in the Church. This is an office or mantle of authority that is not in the least put under the condition that it is subject to the sustaining of the body. This is the person through whom the Lord gives what we now have as written oracles. These statements through the Lord's Anointed Prophet trump anything that comes from any other office beneath it, including ALL offices of the Church because every single office in the Church is subject to the sustaining of the members of the Church.

I know there are many who claim that the Church President is also the Lord's Anointed Prophet, but if this continued to be the case in an unbroken manner, the Church President would continue to receive "thus saith the Lord" oracles as Joseph Smith Jr., Brigham Young and John Taylor did. The fact that the heavens have gone silent to this higher level of ministration tells us that we no longer have the level of assurance that George Albert Smith was alluding to. So far as we can tell, we only have leaders above us who are chosen by the body and upheld and sustained by consent of the body. The withdrawal of the Lord to speak direct first-person oracles is a substantial indication that He no longer sustains the Church President as His Lord's Anointed Prophet. Thus, it was correct for GAS to speak as if it was a possibility that the Lord would no longer sustain someone in the offices that only the Lord appoints and sustains, meaning the offices that are not subject to the sustaining of the people.

Therefore, the quote made by George Albert Smith really only applies to the written oracles that we have from when we for sure had a Lord's Anointed Prophet receiving oracles. This is also the point made in the Official Declaration 1. It also says very clearly that if a Church President goes contrary to the oracles of God, meaning the written oracles by predecessors, that they should be removed from their place. And, the manner in which they are to be removed from their place is per "the programme". And, according to the program of the Lord, the Church President is subject to the body to hold a trial and have them removed.

It is utterly unwise to ascribe infallibility to any officer who is responsible to be removed by the people if he errs.
This includes even the President of the Church, per the oracles God has given to be a law unto the Church.

I hope you will respectfully address this content I have taken the time to try and spell out as clearly as I can.

In short, GAS is saying, stick with the confirmed Lord's Anointed Prophet and the oracles received through them.
Everything else is subject to going astray and the responsibility for such if such happens is on everyone together.

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote: This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.
There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

The ability is there if we need it. Remember, Christ is there also. Relax and enjoy life.

You aren't making much sense here....
And, if you knew what I knew, you would find it difficult to relax.

I can and have found peace for myself as I have been comforted of the Lord.
But, when I consider the fate of others who are ignorant and slothful and idolatrous, my heart weeps.
Do you really want me to relax when people I love are heading straight to Perdition?

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

You are conflating all kinds of stuff, making a tl;dr which is just confusing>

Simply:
- Christ chooses His leaders.
- If a leader goes astray:
- Other apostles / GAs can do first validation and take steps.
- Stake Presidents / Bishops can do second validation and take steps.
- Members can do third validation and take steps.

The Spirit guides, so we are good.

jwharton wrote:

Mark wrote:If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.

This is carefully worded in such a way that of course someone should agree with it.

But, it is entirely appropriate for people to make righteous judgment in regard to not only our own individual actions but also for the actions we as a member of a covenant collective also bear responsibility for.

There is a reason we are asked to sustain or object in our general assemblies. We are asked to judge and all of us are to do so to the best of our ability. If any have sincere grievances it is not an act of self-righteousness to petition for redress of those grievances.

So, please, while I sense you mean well, we do have a responsibility to participate as a member of the body and make our voice heard and we need to sincerely listen to the voices of others of our brothers and sisters who should also be heard by us.

If we do not come together and become One then we are not of the Lord and we are not worthy of His divine protection.

This is twisted logic, just like the Adam-God doctrine.
Don't be fooled by fundamentalist views folks. We went through this same old crap months ago. Now we're back at it. Only some names have changed.
Where in scripture are we told we can find as many wrong doings of church leaders as possible and then go to them and tell them where they go wrong? This is the same thing as a child throwing a hissy fit.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:
Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.
There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

The ability is there if we need it. Remember, Christ is there also. Relax and enjoy life.

You aren't making much sense here....
And, if you knew what I knew, you would find it difficult to relax.

I can and have found peace for myself as I have been comforted of the Lord.
But, when I consider the fate of others who are ignorant and slothful and idolatrous, my heart weeps.
Do you really want me to relax when people I love are heading straight to Perdition?

Yup, this does sound mighty familiar. Another hook to get people to hear and accept doctrine other than what Christ teaches because someone on this forum knows so darn much. This same tactic has been used ad nauseam. But if we all are going to perdition for not listening to an internet preacher that has been proven to be teaching much false doctrine then I suppose we'll all, including the preacher, meet up there, huh?

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.
This is not talking about an external eye; it is one's own eye. Such twisted doctrine being used to advocate contention and the mocking of leaders is only geared to deceive people.

Don't be fooled folks.

Let's see what scripture actually tells us.
Mark 9:47
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

People can't be saved in ignorance either. It is best to read scripture in its true context, right?

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:

Mark wrote:If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.

This is carefully worded in such a way that of course someone should agree with it.

But, it is entirely appropriate for people to make righteous judgment in regard to not only our own individual actions but also for the actions we as a member of a covenant collective also bear responsibility for.

There is a reason we are asked to sustain or object in our general assemblies. We are asked to judge and all of us are to do so to the best of our ability. If any have sincere grievances it is not an act of self-righteousness to petition for redress of those grievances.

So, please, while I sense you mean well, we do have a responsibility to participate as a member of the body and make our voice heard and we need to sincerely listen to the voices of others of our brothers and sisters who should also be heard by us.

If we do not come together and become One then we are not of the Lord and we are not worthy of His divine protection.

This is twisted logic, just like the Adam-God doctrine.

Why do you render judgment with nothing more than "because I say so" to support it?

freedomforall wrote:Don't be fooled by fundamentalist views folks. We went through this same old crap months ago. Now we're back at it. Only some names have changed.

Oohhhh... the "f"-word... We wouldn't want to hold to the fundamentals of the Father's Plan, right?
That could be scary... We wouldn't want to actually demonstrate to the Father we are loyal to Him now would we?

freedomforall wrote:Where in scripture are we told we can find as many wrong doings of church leaders as possible and then go to them and tell them where they go wrong?

D&C 107:82-84 indicates a controversy can be raised up against even the President of the Church.
And, there are provisions for a trial to be had and the President can be removed from his place.
Also, not to mention, we are asked if we oppose any church officers, for a good and sincere reason.
The whole purpose of this is to knit us together as a body of sovereigns who are all co-accountable.
The Celestial Order of things makes everyone equally responsible, not just the leaders only.
Thus, the very nature of "the programme" makes it impossible for the leaders to lead the people astray.
If things do go astray, and they have, it is just as much the people's fault, if not more, than the leader's fault.

freedomforall wrote:This is the same thing as a child throwing a hissy fit.

A great example of a child throwing a hissy fit is your post I am responding to.

freedomforall wrote:Yup, this does sound mighty familiar. Another hook to get people to hear and accept doctrine other than what Christ teaches because someone on this forum knows so darn much. This same tactic has been used ad nauseam. But if we all are going to perdition for not listening to an internet preacher that has been proven to be teaching much false doctrine then I suppose we'll all, including the preacher, meet up there, huh?

And what about the tactic you are using in this post?
No substance to support your attempt to assassinate someone's character.
The same could be said back to you as well. What makes you so special?

We know that we covenant to build up the Father's Kingdom, which can only be Celestial.
We know those who oppose the Father by fighting His Kingdom lose in the end.
We know Lucifer is a wolf in sheep's attire and that he deceives many.
We know those who follow Lucifer do end up going to Perdition, same as Cain.
We know Lucifer was subtly undermining and doing away with individual agency.

You consistently are a cheerleader for "just follow the brethren", which is a Luciferian doctrine.

So, you go right ahead and keep being the internet preacher for "just follow the brethren" and affront people's agency to your heart's content. I know where that train is heading and I got off that train of false doctrine. Once I did, and I sincerely sought the further light and knowledge the Father promised to send, He was graceful and merciful with me because I simply wanted His will with a heart as pure as I could muster.

I don't ask that anyone just take my word for anything I am saying here.
I welcome respectful rebuttal to whatever things I put forward because I want to learn.

What I don't appreciate is when people arrogantly mock and rend me as you are here.

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote: This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

Not for TBMs. We have faith in Christ. Christ leads His church, and provides revelation/inspiration for guidance. If an Apostle passes away, Christ lets His Prophet ponder who should replace the apostle, and takes that to Christ for approval.

Since Christ approves these things, we are not voting for those called, but we will sustain those called in their callings.

GAS is correct, if our own ideas/opinions conflict with Christ's leaders, then we should change our course.

Of recent years, we have seen exactly this scenario and people leaving the church. Many have said Christ told them to. Watch and wait.

This isn't what it says in the scriptures at all.
We are taught if the "eye" of the body offend, it is better to pluck it out.


Freedomforall said:
This is not talking about an external eye; it is one's own eye. Such twisted doctrine being used to advocate contention and the mocking of leaders is only geared to deceive people.

Don't be fooled folks.

Let's see what scripture actually tells us.
Mark 9:47
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

jwharton said:
There are provisions to pluck out leaders on all levels in the Church.
We have responsibility to participate in this if the need should arise.

What you are saying here is based on an assumption that abdicates away this responsibility God gave to us.
When you shun responsibilities that are rightly yours, you can expect the associated rights to also become lost.

The SPIRIT of what you are advocating for here is exactly what Lucifer needs to implement his system of tyranny.

People can't be saved in ignorance either. It is best to read scripture in its true context, right?

I don't like how you are inserting comments inside my posts.
It makes it unclear as to who said what.
Please do a better job to respect the readers so they know who is talking.

Of course people can't be saved in ignorance.
Nor can anyone be exalted by riding the coattails of anyone else, including your file leaders.
All shall be proven out in all things whether they are true and faithful regardless of circumstances.
The TEST we are facing isn't how great of a minion we are willing to be for some file leader.
Our TEST is how well have we written the FATHER'S plan in our heart's and if we hold true to IT.
This includes rejecting the philosophies of men mingled with scripture and the precepts of men.
This requires us to eventually have the Father reveal to us His true character and nature.
This happens as we endure all manner of persecution and trials from those who rage against His Plan.
We go through a phase where Cain usurps and takes over and wars against what is just and true.
We are subjected to him advancing his counterfeit plan that he thinks is superior to the Celestial.
So, whether you think I'm a fool worthy to be mocked or not, at least hold true to the Celestial Law.

And, also, while we are at it....

This is the JST rendering of Mark 9
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.


This reference can be applied to the President of the Church as well as any other officer in the Church.

So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who transgresses and offends.

jwharton wrote:This is the JST rendering of Mark 9
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.


This reference can be applied to the President of the Church as well as any other officer in the Church.

So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Who do you want to pluck out?

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:This is the JST rendering of Mark 9
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.


This reference can be applied to the President of the Church as well as any other officer in the Church.

So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Who do you want to pluck out?

All members and leaders who have contempt for the Father's Celestial Laws and Principles and who refuses to repent of opposing them.
Put another way, all who are tares.

jwharton wrote:So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Yup, a quote right out of scripture sure is false, isn't it? Says a lot about clarity and understanding. For clarity and less confusion you would have provided the source.
It wasn't I that didn't provide a source, it was you. I went back and read JST Mark 9 and found the verse you referred to but failed to provide the source for, so pat yourself on the back all you want.
So now you have taken upon yourself the role of policing Church Headquarters because they're all headed for perdition. Makes sense now; it's all too clear.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:This is the JST rendering of Mark 9
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.


This reference can be applied to the President of the Church as well as any other officer in the Church.

So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Who do you want to pluck out?

All members and leaders who have contempt for the Father's Celestial Laws and Principles and who refuses to repent of opposing them.
Put another way, all who are tares.

What are you trying to persuade the saints to do?

Do you claim to know how to determine which of our leaders or individual saints are the tares? With as much info. we have now about the early history of the Church, and the fact that we perform plural marriages in the temples, we should conclude that the majority of all active saints accept the doctrine to some degree. How do we know what the prayers of our leaders are in this matter? It seems that you assume to know the will of the Lord for his entire Church - that he really wants all his flock to be crying day and night to be able to live this practice of plurality of wives. The news of it brought Joseph and Brigham to the point of preferring death, and you say there is something wrong with everyone not petitioning the Lord for allowing them to make this sacrifice?

I won't say most, because I really don't know, but I would say many saints desire to do whatever it takes to reach the Celestial Kingdom, and if that involves making the sacrifice to practice a plurality of wives, they would do it and obey. But to ask for those sacrifices - you can go ahead. The Lord knows when the best time is for each individual to be given this law, and I'm not going to counsel Him nor His servants. I can say, thy will O Lord, be done.

freedomforall wrote:

jwharton wrote:So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Yup, a quote right out of scripture sure is false, isn't it? Says a lot about clarity and understanding. For clarity and less confusion you would have provided the source.
It wasn't I that didn't provide a source, it was you. I went back and read JST Mark 9 and found the verse you referred to but failed to provide the source for, so pat yourself on the back all you want.
So now you have taken upon yourself the role of policing Church Headquarters because they're all headed for perdition. Makes sense now; it's all too clear.

Is all I am concerned about is the membership recognize the entire Church body, as a Celeatial Order, has provisions of law that makes everyone in the union co-accountable and that there are means and ways for wayward leaders to be held to account to the body if in any manner they become transgressors. If they become a transgressor and the body does nothing about it and sustains it then everyone shoulder's the blame, not just the wayward leader. It is in this manner that it is impossible for the leaders to lead the people astray because God makes all responsible and none exempt. This is why the procedure to sustain or oppose is in the Church.

This principle of the Celestial Order isn't for the members to be immature and frivolous and to use these mechanisms to manipulate, etc. leaders they want to try and coerce to do this or that. The system of due process only holds them accountable for going contrary to the oracles of God and their duties spelled out in the oracles of God. And, if by chance the Church President is found to have been a transgressor in some manner, removing him is really no big deal. Any worthy high priest can take his place and carry on.

You might also want to review the entire section 107 of the D&C where this is fairly clearly alluded to, in addition to saying that simply not performing ones duty is sufficient cause to deem them unworthy to stand. So, for example, if our Church President isn't being "like unto Moses" then a trial could be had over him and he could be removed.

Let's go with a potentially valid example. In the 1880 oracle receive by Wilford Woodruff that was ratified by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the 12 as valid for doctrine and guidance, etc. it is said clearly that all means should be employed to lobby the powers of the nation (Pharaoh) so that all of the tenets of the Celestial Patriarchal Order would be upheld as Constitutional and within the right of the Saints to render the offering the Father calls for them to make. And, it further gives a blanket warning to all who hinder the faithful in being able to keep this provision of the Celestial Patriarchal Order. This is an oracle from the Lord that is binding even now. So, it is actually the responsibility of our Church President to go into the courts of Pharaoh and to seek for the laws to be changed so that we can keep the fullness of the Gospel. If he is not doing this, as the oracles of the Lord charge the leaders of the Church to do, then he can indeed be deemed in transgression of what the oracles command. Thus, for being in opposition to what the oracle says he should do, he should be removed from his place. But, so long as the people are ignorant of this oracle or they believe this oracle to be false, the entire body remains under condemnation together for opposing the Lord.

This begs the question, why does the Church lobby to keep plural marriage a punishable felony in the State of Utah?

Sarah wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

jwharton wrote:This is the JST rendering of Mark 9
44 Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.
45 Seek unto my Father, and it shall be done in that very moment what ye shall ask, if ye ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive.
46 And if thine eye which seeth for thee, him that is appointed to watch over thee to show thee light, become a transgressor and offend thee, pluck him out.


This reference can be applied to the President of the Church as well as any other officer in the Church.

So, everyone reading this, please understand freedomforall was trying to fool you to believe false doctrine.
The JST clearly makes it known that Jesus was teaching the people to be willing to throw out a leader who offends.

Who do you want to pluck out?

All members and leaders who have contempt for the Father's Celestial Laws and Principles and who refuses to repent of opposing them.
Put another way, all who are tares.

What are you trying to persuade the saints to do?

To have strict fidelity to the written oracles of God and to rectify all points upon which condemnation yet hangs over us for.
To have sufficient spiritual maturity to engage in an adult conversation that has an eye single to the glory of God.
To have sufficient humility to consider the possibility we have become usurped by Lucifer in many ways and to purge it all.
To be willing to be hated by the world again if it turns out we will need to repent of concessions we have made to please it.
To cease and desist with the false doctrine that we just have to do whatever the Church Presidency tells us to do.
To wake up and recognize just how awful of a situation we truly are in and to revive our commitment to the Father's Kingdom.

Sarah wrote:Do you claim to know how to determine which of our leaders or individual saints are the tares?

I do not claim to be any kind of a sole authority people should look to, if that is what you are asking.
I believe the answers are all available to solve our current problems in the scriptures as we now have them.

I do believe some of the information the Lord has given me will be of assistance in helping people understand things better.
But, I wouldn't want anyone ever getting to the mindset that they support this or that because so-an-so says so.
We all must learn and grow together and to have strict fidelity to what the Lord's oracles command of us.
It isn't just our right, but it is our responsibility, to hold the officers above us accountable to have this fidelity.

Sarah wrote:With as much info. we have now about the early history of the Church, and the fact that we perform plural marriages in the temples, we should conclude that the majority of all active saints accept the doctrine to some degree. How do we know what the prayers of our leaders are in this matter? It seems that you assume to know the will of the Lord for his entire Church - that he really wants all his flock to be crying day and night to be able to live this practice of plurality of wives.

I do not operate on assumption and I certainly don't want any kind of "because I say so" mentality.
I operate from clear simple knowledge that comes directly from oracles of the Lord.
I would only want someone to walk in the steps I have walked and look at what I have looked at.
Then, they would be able to see and determine for themselves if the oracles say what I say they say.
The authority is vested in the Word of the Lord that has been given as a law unto the Church.

Sarah wrote:The news of it brought Joseph and Brigham to the point of preferring death, and you say there is something wrong with everyone not petitioning the Lord for allowing them to make this sacrifice?

I think they just knew what the world's reaction to it would be.
I highly doubt they were resistant to the good this doctrine is intended to accomplish.
And, when it is done correctly, it is a blessing and benefit to all involved.
I have ancestors who lived it very happily and who understood it well.

Sarah wrote:I won't say most, because I really don't know, but I would say many saints desire to do whatever it takes to reach the Celestial Kingdom, and if that involves making the sacrifice to practice a plurality of wives, they would do it and obey. But to ask for those sacrifices - you can go ahead. The Lord knows when the best time is for each individual to be given this law, and I'm not going to counsel Him nor His servants. I can say, thy will O Lord, be done.

I think you are misunderstanding me in part. I only advocate that people seek for it to have a respected and lawful place in society for those very few who the Lord calls to live it. I believe only a very small percentage of people will ever be called to live it. I am wholeheartedly opposed to it ever being something that men or women aggressively seek out and try to make happen. Monogamy should remain the norm as it is a reflection of the near 50/50 ratio of men and women in the population.

Of an immediate necessity is for the sake of widows and their deceased sealed husbands, these widows should be allowed to be received as a plural wife so that they can be joined to a good, noble and worthy husband while that husband is also allowed to be married to another woman to whom he can also be sealed for time and eternity.

As it is right now, widows and their deceased husbands are getting the shaft. This is exactly the reason stated in Mormon chapter 8 that has the sword of vengeance hanging over us because we are denying them the provision of law that protects their interests. Government welfare and single parenthood or being married to a man willing to not be sealed to you and to not have his own eternal posterity is a grievous condition that could easily be rectified if the Church would just lobby for widows or divorcees to be received as a plural wife as per God's Law. And, I am talking about levirate marriage law here.

jwharton wrote:This begs the question, why does the Church lobby to keep plural marriage a punishable felony in the State of Utah?

Simple:

Doctrine and Covenants 56:4
4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord.


Are you among the rebellious wanting polygamy?

Mark wrote:

jwharton wrote:Sad to see this thread didn't keep going.
This is a subject of vital importance.

It is but not in the way many here might suppose. I would just implore anyone who wants to understand what the Lord expects of his Saints in these latter days to read and then reread John Pontius wonderful book "Following the light of Christ into His Presence".

John does such a wonderful job in explaining the principles of becoming a Saint by experiencing the rebirth process in their lives through strictly obeying the promptings we receive from the Holy Ghost. Any condemnation from the Lord rests upon those who choose to submit instead to the natural man tendencies and ignore those promptings of light and truth given us thru the light of Christ and the Holy Ghosts constant companionship.

Blaming anyone except the man or women in the mirror for any perceived levels of condemnation upon the church is so shortsighted and misses the mark completely imo. Once we become a new creature in Christ and gain the Lords total confidence of perfectly obeying his still small voice in all situations He then bestows upon us all the needed gifts of the Spirit and we remove any condemnation upon our own heads.

This is a very individual process and it happens one Saint at a time. No group think mentality or feeble excuses or outward blame games in all this. We then seek with love and charity to help our brothers and sisters around us thru kindness and long suffering to see the marvelous opportunities of forsaking babylons pull and coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart by obedience to His voice he constantly is whispersing in our hearts and minds. We then grow in light and truth until the mysteries of heaven are unfolded unto us.

If we are caught up in condemning and complaining and throwing out self righteous judgments upon the church leaders or the church in general for perceived weaknesses of the flesh we have not experienced that mighty change of heart for ourselves and need to repent and heal ourselves first. D&C 121 is our guide. Any other way comes from the powers of darkness.

Spot on. I'm presently reading John Pontius' book "Journey to the Veil' and appreciated his emphasis on strict obedience to the promptings of the holy ghost, this has helped me think more about my own life.

You've made some Excellent points. Thank you.

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

And your comment is evidence that you want to follow your own way and an excuse to not heed the counsel of the Lord's appointed Prophet.

AI2.0 wrote:I'm presently reading John Pontius' book "Journey to the Veil' and appreciated his emphasis on strict obedience to the promptings of the holy ghost...

There are many spirits out there who prompt us that may or may not be the Holy Ghost.
So, I would add as a precursor to "strict obedience to spiritual promptings" that you also put in the effort to make sure you are in tune with the Holy Ghost rather than just any spirit.
The manner in which people become spiritually born and receive the Holy Ghost is they receive the words of truth.
First and foremost, this is the written oracles of God.
So, in order to have strict obedience to the promptings of the Holy Ghost, we must have our spiritual birth from legitimate parentage.

The Lord warns a time will come when many will speak of all of their great works and miracles performed in the Lord's name, but he will tell them to depart from Him because they were workers of iniquity. Surely they believed they were also having strict obedience to the Holy Ghost in these works they believed were so marvelous. But, what did the Lord say? He said "I knew ye not", meaning He considered them of different spiritual parentage than Himself.

There are many today who are being born again unto the spirit of Lucifer and who are putting aside the oracles of the Lord and who are more attuned to the precepts of men and the traditions of their fathers that the adversary plants as tares among us. Are we truly rooted in good soil and is our spiritual birth truly of the Lord that is firmly atop the foundation of strict obedience and fidelity to the written oracles of God?

If this can be assured as your foundation and spiritual parentage, then I do believe strict obedience to the promptings of the Holy Ghost will be the promptings you are receiving.

AI2.0 wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:

There is only one pathway of safety for me in this day and that is to follow those whom the Lord has appointed to lead. I may have my own ideas and opinions, I may set up my own judgment with reference to things, but I know that when my judgment conflicts with the teachings of those that the Lord has given to us to point the way, I should change my course. If I desire salvation I will follow the leaders that our Heavenly Father has given to us, as long as he sustains them.11
George Albert Smith

This is an example of how idol worship enters in.

And your comment is evidence that you want to follow your own way and an excuse to not heed the counsel of the Lord's appointed Prophet.

No, I want all of us, including myself, to give strict heed to the written oracles of the Lord, to which any successors are bound.
If our Church President goes contrary to the oracles of God and his duty, the Lord holds us responsible to raise up a controversy and have him tried.

I have no idea how you derive me just wanting to be a law unto myself out of that.

What you don't recognize is you are wanting all of us to cooperate so that our leaders could be a law unto themselves.
But, the oracles and the laws of the Church found therein, expressly establish that our leaders cannot be a law unto themselves.
The only way they could be is if members yield up to them their agency and deem them beyond reproach and not to be questioned.
Time and time again I get flack for simply pointing out just principles of the Celestial Order that makes all responsible and none exempt.

Why is this such a difficult principle for people to see?

Can't you see you are resisting sound principles here?

Edit: Please be sure to read my other post where I clarify how GAS is 100% correct, but that people are going to be prone to misinterpret it.

jwharton wrote:

Sarah wrote:

jwharton wrote:

rewcox wrote:
Who do you want to pluck out?

All members and leaders who have contempt for the Father's Celestial Laws and Principles and who refuses to repent of opposing them.
Put another way, all who are tares.

What are you trying to persuade the saints to do?

To have strict fidelity to the written oracles of God and to rectify all points upon which condemnation yet hangs over us for.
To have sufficient spiritual maturity to engage in an adult conversation that has an eye single to the glory of God.
To have sufficient humility to consider the possibility we have become usurped by Lucifer in many ways and to purge it all.
To be willing to be hated by the world again if it turns out we will need to repent of concessions we have made to please it.
To cease and desist with the false doctrine that we just have to do whatever the Church Presidency tells us to do.
To wake up and recognize just how awful of a situation we truly are in and to revive our commitment to the Father's Kingdom.

Sarah wrote:Do you claim to know how to determine which of our leaders or individual saints are the tares?

I do not claim to be any kind of a sole authority people should look to, if that is what you are asking.
I believe the answers are all available to solve our current problems in the scriptures as we now have them.

I do believe some of the information the Lord has given me will be of assistance in helping people understand things better.
But, I wouldn't want anyone ever getting to the mindset that they support this or that because so-an-so says so.
We all must learn and grow together and to have strict fidelity to what the Lord's oracles command of us.
It isn't just our right, but it is our responsibility, to hold the officers above us accountable to have this fidelity.

Sarah wrote:With as much info. we have now about the early history of the Church, and the fact that we perform plural marriages in the temples, we should conclude that the majority of all active saints accept the doctrine to some degree. How do we know what the prayers of our leaders are in this matter? It seems that you assume to know the will of the Lord for his entire Church - that he really wants all his flock to be crying day and night to be able to live this practice of plurality of wives.

I do not operate on assumption and I certainly don't want any kind of "because I say so" mentality.
I operate from clear simple knowledge that comes directly from oracles of the Lord.
I would only want someone to walk in the steps I have walked and look at what I have looked at.
Then, they would be able to see and determine for themselves if the oracles say what I say they say.
The authority is vested in the Word of the Lord that has been given as a law unto the Church.

Sarah wrote:The news of it brought Joseph and Brigham to the point of preferring death, and you say there is something wrong with everyone not petitioning the Lord for allowing them to make this sacrifice?

I think they just knew what the world's reaction to it would be.
I highly doubt they were resistant to the good this doctrine is intended to accomplish.
And, when it is done correctly, it is a blessing and benefit to all involved.
I have ancestors who lived it very happily and who understood it well.

Sarah wrote:I won't say most, because I really don't know, but I would say many saints desire to do whatever it takes to reach the Celestial Kingdom, and if that involves making the sacrifice to practice a plurality of wives, they would do it and obey. But to ask for those sacrifices - you can go ahead. The Lord knows when the best time is for each individual to be given this law, and I'm not going to counsel Him nor His servants. I can say, thy will O Lord, be done.

I think you are misunderstanding me in part. I only advocate that people seek for it to have a respected and lawful place in society for those very few who the Lord calls to live it. I believe only a very small percentage of people will ever be called to live it. I am wholeheartedly opposed to it ever being something that men or women aggressively seek out and try to make happen. Monogamy should remain the norm as it is a reflection of the near 50/50 ratio of men and women in the population.

Of an immediate necessity is for the sake of widows and their deceased sealed husbands, these widows should be allowed to be received as a plural wife so that they can be joined to a good, noble and worthy husband while that husband is also allowed to be married to another woman to whom he can also be sealed for time and eternity.

As it is right now, widows and their deceased husbands are getting the shaft. This is exactly the reason stated in Mormon chapter 8 that has the sword of vengeance hanging over us because we are denying them the provision of law that protects their interests. Government welfare and single parenthood or being married to a man willing to not be sealed to you and to not have his own eternal posterity is a grievous condition that could easily be rectified if the Church would just lobby for widows or divorcees to be received as a plural wife as per God's Law. And, I am talking about levirate marriage law here.

Why are widows and their deceased husbands getting the shaft ?
How do you propose to fix this problem?

Let me guess...you want men to polygamously marry 'widows' and have children with them, correct?

So, is this the big pollution in the church? The problem is that the church forbids polygamy? Is that your complaint? Is that why you condemn our church leaders? Is that why you know more than everyone else, because you believe the LDS church, should be practicing polygamy?

Have you received some sort of spiritual witness that the LDS church is condemned because it is not practicing polygamy?