The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

[Tony]

The Millennial Star is not scripture and not the official position of The Church at that time because The Prophet at that time did not write it, say it or personally endorse it.

What you say is interesting and can be considered but it would be hard to completely know what any article in the Millennial Star meant if we do not have the whole article to read and examine.

The whole article is there for you to read if you just click the link. I'll repost it for you.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AlgoA ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

I commend you for adding the link to the Millennial Star article you cited.

It was interesting to see exactly what you were talking about in this old Church article.

May I point out some observations of mine.

In the original 1830 edition of the BofM these words are on page 535.

In the BofM edition sited in this article these words are on page 512.

In today's BofM edition these words are on page 483.

So we can see there has been some editing and arranging of pages over the years. This may or may not have any bearing on this issue.

I know you spent a lot of time and effort to come up with this Millennial Star article and it is interesting and worthwhile to read. Thank you very much.

May I in the most respectful tone possible suggest that you, and anyone else that reads this post, consider the words of Elder L. Tom Perry in 1992 over this Millennial Star article for the following reasons:

The Millennial Star article was written almost a half of a world away from SLC where The Prophet Of The Church was so The Prophet did not authorize this article as "official" Church doctrine. If you can find an authentic article that The Prophet did do so please let me know.

The words of Elder L. Tom Perry were given in General Conference under the direct supervision and approval of The Prophet of The Church at that time and as such could be considered scripture if it does not contradict The Four Standard Works. That is the test of "official" Church doctrine; that it receives the direct approval of The Prophet of The Church and does not contradict The Four Standard Works.

This is exactly why I want and pray so hard for President Monson to give his official interpretation for "the holy church of God" in the next General Conference. Then, and only then, will it be know what the "official" interpretation of The Church is.

Until then Elder Perry's talk is the most reliable information we have.

Thanks again for your efforts and good spirit.

You are a credit to this website.

Sincerely,

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

Your "CASE CLOSED" ending begs a question:

Have you ever had any successful missionary experiences?

If you have I bet you did not tell the investigator "CASE CLOSED."

Just a thought and an honest question.

Sincerely,

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Again Dear Tony,

Your statement, "I am very familiar with the verse you cited. The Lord was explaining why "many are called, but few are chosen." The entire Church leadership is "chosen" by God, which completely destroys your argument. CASE CLOSED," is flawed.

I am not going to take the time to look it up but The Prophets of The Church has been very specific that "many are called" in The Church to be priesthood holders and leaders but few of them will be chosen on Judgment Day to be in the Celestial Kingdom.

By your analogy that all Church leaders (and may I add priesthood holders) are chosen of God would leave the question then who is called?

To be called to the priesthood a brother has to be a baptized member of The Church. To be called to a priesthood leadership position in The Church that brother would already have to have the priesthood. I think you may have misunderstood the term "calling" in The Church which means The Church leadership has extended a calling to a person and in the case of a priesthood position that is considered a "calling" in the priesthood and not a chosen.

Even to be an Apostle is a calling and not a chosen.

Like I have said in the most sincere spirit I know how to, please take a breath and study these things out. You may learn someone else may have something important to teach you.

Most sincerely,

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

I visited your website and I hit the like button.

Very well done and this seems it could be a good missionary tool.

Good job.

Sincerely,

Bro. Jim

[Thomas]

The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star was the official publication of the Church in the British Isles from 1840 to 1970.

The official position of the Church in 1868, as put forth in The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star, was that Moroni was speaking of the apostate churches when he said they have “polluted the holy church of god.” The Millennial Star article specifically cited the “Church of England.” (see link)

Parley P. Pratt, an Apostle of the Church and the first editor of the periodical, outlined its purpose in its first issue, May, 1840, "The Millennial Star will stand aloof from the common political and commercial news of the day. Its columns will be devoted to the spread of the fulness of the gospel- the restoration of the ancient principles of Christianity-the gathering of Israel- the rolling forth of the kingdom of God among the nations- the signs of the times- ... in short, whatever is shown forth indicative of the coming of the 'Son of Man,' and the ushering in of his universal reign on the earth."

The presidents of the British Mission were always listed as the editors, among whom were five future Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Grant, George Albert Smith, and David O. McKay.

No General Authority, except L. Tom Perry, ever took the position that Moroni was speaking about members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And even Elder Perry did not say Moroni was speaking of leaders of the Church. Only apostates think Moroni was speaking of leaders of the Church.

https://books.google.com/books?id=AlgoA ... 22&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Quite an interesting position you have taken. Do you believe the members of the church cannot sin? Do you think the Book of Mormon was not written for those who would read it? What a colossal waste if that is the case.

I wonder than, what is the purpose of the Book of Mormon for the modern church? Is it to prove to ourselves how we are much better than everyone else and we are the apple of God's eye? In other words, to build our pride to a point where we are the most proud of all the people on the earth?

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

Could it be our pride is so great we have fulfilled this scripture? We don't think we are capable of sin and all warnings are for others.

Does it mean that even if we engage in the behavior warned about in the book that God doesn't care because we are special? What other sins are we exempt from?

Do we engage in the behavior warned about? Have we built up our church to get gain? Maybe, I think that mall was built to get gain and so are all the other businesses the church owns. I can think of no other church that has been built to get gain as much as the LDS church. No other church is as focused on business and making a profit as the LDS are.

What about our buildings? Have we built fancy buildings? Have you seen the conference center? What about the temples? Did you know the church owns more building space than any other organization in the USA, including the government? More space than Walmart.

Do we love money, fine clothes and fine buildings more than the poor? Could that money have been spent on the poor?

Do we seek the praise of the world? What was Meet the Mormons all about?

I am sorry but the shoe seems to fit. Only pride can keep you from seeing your own sins.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

[Jim Kelley]

We truly learn line upon line and precept upon precept.

While thinking about Tony and Tony’s missionary website it dawned on me why so many Mormons are fighting so hard against the possibility Jesus Christ’s Warning is truly against The Church and the G.A.s. It is because they have so much invested that they don’t want to lose it all.

Many Mormons have two years invested as a full-time mission (or 18, 12, 6 months).

Most temple carrying Mormons invest 10% of their income plus other contributions. Considering these other contributions this could amount to a year’s salary donated to The Church every seven years or so.

Then there is the time donated. Home and visiting teaching, callings, sacrament meeting talks, family home evenings, temple attendance, etc. could amount to a 10%, or more, of all your awake hours being donated to The Church.

Most Mormons have a lot invested; the same as I did and still do, to ever realize The Church, especially the G.A.s, are polluted. I get it and I get it that it hurts. It hurt me too when it hit me.

The reality is Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine is an incredible negative-positive proof the BofM and The Church are true. Who in the world, except God, could have ever predicted the “pollutions” that actually have and are still surfacing in The Church today? The dialogue for the BofM was set in stone in 1830 with the publishing of the first edition of the BofM. After that the dialogue couldn’t be changed because there were too many original copies of the 1830 BofM to compare.

No one in 1830, on their own, could have predicted how large and wealthy The Church would become let alone that there would actually be Church leader “hypocrites” that would “pollute the holy church of God.” This is absolute proof the BofM and The Church are true!


If The Church leadership were smart they would declare the BofM predicted these “pollutions” in The Church all along and then admit The Church will start taking real and meaningful actions and precautions to stop the “pollutions.” Then The First Presidency would announce the organization of a Central Church Complaint Department to help root out the “pollutions” and the “hypocrites.” This announcement could be prepared and given in the next General Conference. Then an Ensign article (June) right after the General Conference issue (May) to map out the details of the Complaint Department.

This really could be fixed that easy if the G.A.s would just get it and do their jobs.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

I am indebted to Thomas for his run down on the incredible wealth and holdings of The Church. Thank you Thomas.

What we see here is The Church has become a great nation (Modern-day Israel) but enjoys secrecy as a private corporation. Even the U.S. Federal Government doesn’t enjoy secrecy like The Church. Actually the secrecy The Church leaders enjoy is more like a dictatorship.

So we can see evidence The Church G.A.s have squandered many billions (with a “B”) dollars because they “do love money [spend it],…and the adorning of your churches, more than ye [speaking directly to the G.A.s here] love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted” (Mormon 8:37).

Does anyone remember that part of the new Leadership Policy Manuals five, or so, years ago specifically eliminated the calling of branch, ward and stake activities chairmen? Here is what happened with the stroke of a pen:

With no local activities chairmen local activities virtually ceased to exist because there was no one specifically responsibly with a calling dedicated to local activities. That responsibility was thrust upon the Relief Society President, the Primary President, Elder’s Quorum President, High Priest’s Group Leader and even perhaps the Sunday School President, etc. at the direction and discretion of the local Bishop and Stake President. So when you heap more responsibility on those who are already overloaded then the extra responsibility will probably not be done well so in reality the local social activities are not very well done anymore or at least not as well as they used to with a dedicated calling of activities chairmen. Some members really enjoyed that calling and did it quite well.

With the activities chairman callings went the activities budgets. The Church G.A.s withdrew $400.00 a year from each ward (that is what it was in my ward) and perhaps $1000.00 a year from every stake (I am estimating this). So now not only does the responsibility to plan and do a local activity fall on someone that is overtaxed already but the money to do the activity has to come out of the local Relief Society’s, etc. budget. So how many really good local activities is a ward or stake going to have with a system like that?

Here is how this all fits in with abusing “the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted:”

For many of the poor in The Church, The Church is the only social life they have. Having a good social life contributes to mental wellness and mental stability. By The Church withdrawing the activities chairman calling and activities budget The Church G.A.s have contributed to the poor’s decrease in mental wellness and mental stability. In other words The Church G.A.s have directly contributed to the mental illness of The Church’s poor with the stroke of a pen. How “inspired” can that be from “special witnesses of Jesus Christ to all the world?”

So on the one hand The Church G.A.s squanders tens of billions of dollars on the adorning of church building, etc. and on the other hand The Church G.A.s withdraw money, they have previously pledged, from local activities that have a direct and positive effect on the mental well being of the poor in The Church.

No doubt The Church G.A.s will budget more money for LDS Social Services to help cure the same problems The Church has created because as the scripture says, the G.A.s love money more than they love the poor. So obviously the G.A.s do have some love for the poor but not as much as they love to spend money on Church building many of which were not needed.

The historic SLC Tabernacle served for The Church General Conference for quite some time and could have served well until The Second Coming. The new Conference Center was a glutinous waste of money especially considering the needs of the poor of The Church.

Here is something to investigate. It seems the past few Presidents of The Church have been in a race to see who can build the most temples in their reign. Do a search for LDS Temple schedules (http://www.ldschurchtemples.com/schedules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and see for yourself just how busy and used these new temples are. Some don’t even have set endowment sessions there is so little activity. Many are open just a few days a week for a half a day at a time. Really, did we need to build all these temples so fast when they are only used part-time?

There is a real need to help the poor of The Church to receive their endowments throughout the world but to build dozens of part-time temples is not the answer or solution.

Here is what I have suggested in letter, and on my website in the past, for The Church G.A.s consider:

Anciently The Lord allowed Israel to have a movable temple. Go to The Lord and receive permission to construct movable temples that could be temporally erected throughout the world where the poor of The Church live but would have no chance to go to the temple elsewhere.

There could be called Temple Presidents and other staff assigned to each portable temple. These portable temples could be set up even in the jungles of Africa to serve the poor for a month or two and then be moved to another location to serve the poor there.

It just seems to me, yea I know I am not The Prophet, The Lord would welcome an effort like this for The Church to go directly to the poor of The Church and give them their opportunities to receive their endowments and have their families sealed.

Obviously portable temples would be much more efficient in taking the temple blessing to the poor of The Church who are scattered throughout the world and it would be a lot cheaper than building a lot of part-time temples too. Just think how special those poor would feel when they see a portable temple set up in their village. These poor have a right to feel special in this way because they too are children of our Heavenly Father just the same as anyone else in the world.

And think of the missionary possibilities and opportunities that could open up in remote parts of the world when the locals see a portable Mormon Temple set up in their village. Won’t that create a lot of good questions about The Church among the locals and opportunities to answer those good questions by local members? Absolutely yes! And perhaps baptisms without end.

Like I have said, Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine) is word perfect if you understand Proper English Grammar Rules and all the facts.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

“These new Policy Manuals are so inspired if we were still adding to the Doctrine and Covenants these new Church Policy Manuals would be put there.”

If you were in the Church leadership meetings at the time (2009 I think) the new Church Policy Manuals were distributed and introduced this is the quote you would have heard from The First Presidency through the G.A.s and the local priesthood leadership. I know, I was there and I heard this with my own ears.

Is it not interesting that the same Church Manuals that are so inspired they could be published in the D&C are so secret if anyone dares to put them on the Internet they are immediately threatened with a Church law suit.

What is wrong with this picture? :))

This is my opinion why The First Presidency made this statement and made sure the faithful, mindless, gerbil, G.A.s reported this to all the faithful, mindless, gerbil, local Church leadership.

There was no doubt in the minds of the G.A.s who wrote the secret Leadership Priesthood Manuals that many local Saints would question and ask why stupid things were in the secret manuals. This First Presidency Quote would be used by the faithful, mindless, gerbil, local Church leadership to shut up the intelligent local Saints and remind them they must be obedient to The Prophet and no questions asked. The local Church leadership could even ask; do you want to lose your temple recommend for not sustaining The Prophet?

If anyone has a better opinion or explanation I am all ears.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

There are two main camps for the Kate Kelly, Ordain Women Organization, and then a middle of the road camp of which I am in. The two main camps for the Ordain Women movement have their thread on another part of this great website. The reason I bring this subject up here is because of the “pollutions” associated with The Church leadership and their handling of the Ordain Women sisters in The Church and this is a third camp of concern.

For all practical purposes it doesn’t matter if the Ordain Women sisters are right or wrong but what does matter is how the overbearing Church Leadership has handled this public relations nightmare.

Up until Kate Kelly’s Church Court she and other Mormon sisters had done some talking, posting on the Internet, gathering in public places and most generally making themselves known and noticed. The SLC Church H.Q. was well aware of this Ordain Women movement because this movement was well covered in the SLC Tribune. Surely The Church leadership reads the local newspaper and if they don’t then they could have looked out the window.

In June of 2014, over eight months ago, was Kate Kelly’s Church Court and the first night of Court the Bishopric could NOT come to a decision and by a fluke this became National News that Sunday night obviously embarrassing The First Presidency terribly.

Information was texted to Kate Kelly, because she was not present at her Church Court, that the Bishopric would reconvene the following Tuesday or Wednesday and hold Church Court again.

Monday afternoon, apparently under the direction of the Stake President (and probably SLC), the Bishop announced a decision had been made to excommunicate Sister Kate Kelly for “apostasy.”

Obviously, someone in The Church Priesthood leadership, but not the Bishop, couldn’t wait until Tuesday or Wednesday for the verdict. But when Kate Kelly submits her appeals documents The Church Priesthood leadership all the way up to The First Presidency can’t wait long enough.

It has taken Kate Kelly’s Church Court process over eight months for The First Presidency to finally affirm the lower Church Court. Normally this whole process takes two or three months maximum and I have to commend The Church Court System for their speedy process of service in this regard. In my case the letter of affirmation from The first Presidency came in after about one month and that was after several telephone conversations, behind my back, between my Stake President and The First Presidency.

Obviously the welfare of Kate Kelly was and is still not of any concern to The First Presidency. What The First Presidency wants most is for themselves to look good even at the expense of an innocent someone else. In this case it is Kate Kelly.

My point in posting this is that it makes no difference if Kate Kelly is right or wrong but what does matter here is The First Presidency has missed a great opportunity to make and set a perfect example for the pure love of Christ, charity.

When Kate Kelly started to organize her group on Church property instead of asking them to leave why not invite the leaders of Ordain Women to come up and meet with The First Presidency for an inspired talk? Just think of the good P.R. news coverage that would have been.

Yes the naysayers will point out The First Presidency doesn’t have time to meet with every bum that shows up on Church property to demonstrate. I suppose in part that is true. However, in the case of Kate Kelly and Ordain Women, they are not an insignificant group or movement that showed up unexpectedly. They were a well-organized force of latter-day Saint sisters and The First Presidency should have been able to recognize that or at least receive revelation from God about this.

There are two old saying that obviously apply here The First Presidency has ignored:

The first is an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. The Church is in the pound of cure stage now and how much time and resources will that cost?

The second is keep your friends close and your enemies even closer. Had The First Presidency invited the Ordain Women leadership up to their office for a friendly and inspired meeting then they would have brought their enemy in close and if they could have had an inspiring meeting then perhaps Ordain Women would have been disbanded.

Here is an idea The First Presidency could have used that inspired missionaries use often. While doing my missionary labors when the Spirit is right I ask the investigator if they will kneel with me in prayer about the BofM and ask God if it is true or not. Every time I have done this, when prompted by The Holy Ghost, the other person has gotten up with their new and sure testimony, every time.

Why couldn’t The First Presidency kneel in pray with the leaders of Ordain Women and have a prayer to know if God would want women to have all or part of the Priesthood conferred upon their heads. If President Monson is an active Prophet of God (there is no doubt the keys of the prophet are vested with him) then he could call upon God in a prayer circle to give further light and knowledge to these good Mormon sisters and these Mormon sisters could then be the mouthpiece in prayer.

But then The First presidency may be afraid of a prayer circle with Ordain Women because of the claims of the Ordain Women may be legitimate and this prayer circle could end up being a two edged sword. Ordain Women claim, and they have some vague evidence, under the direction of The Prophet Joseph Smith, Emma Smith, The Relief Society President, was ordained to the priesthood and she, along with other ordained sisters, were charged with visiting the sick and healing them by the laying on of hands.

I don’t know if women in Nauvoo were ordained to the priesthood for the calling to lay hands on the sick to heal them because, like everyone else today, I didn’t live in Nauvoo then. However, if this is true, then that gives further understanding to the Mormon story about the mother with children while starting for Utah gave her dying oxen a priesthood blessing by the laying on of hands and her oxen arose and took her family to Utah.

It is not too late for The First Presidency to insert some legitimate damage control in the case of Kate Kelly. There is still time to invite the Ordain Women leadership (and their spouses) to meet with The First Presidency for a meeting. A meeting with the Spirit of God would be wonderful for all and in this case would also be wonderful for the whole world.

I do hope The First Presidency can figure out a better way to deal with P.R. problems like Ordain Women in the future. To do hurry up Church Courts and then delay the appeals process for months and months is just a tacky way to do business and reflects poorly upon The Church of Jesus Christ.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

I am indeed indebted to Tony again for sharing with us The LDS Millennial Star article citing Mormon 8:33-41. There is a link on per post of a few days ago.

Reading through this is incredibly interesting and revealing. Even though Tony cited the names of Parley P. Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Geant, George Albert Smith and David O. Mckay in the post the actual author of the article citing Mormon 8:33-41 was a younger full-time missionary, Charles W. Penrose.

Brother Penrose was a talented person but he did not receive the status of Apostle until 1904, 36 years after this article was written by him when he was a full-time missionary.

Tony is exactly right that this article “specifically cited the ‘Church of England.’” Too bad Brother Penrose was so ignorant of the facts at the time he wrote this article.

Apparently Brother Penrose did not understand The Church of England was a branch off of The Roman Catholic Church which was already apostate at the time of the break off.

More modern, more schooled, and more enlightened Mormon missionaries now teach the correct principle that a live branch cannot come from a dead tree.

Reading Brother Penrose’s article is like reading an anti-Mormon tract published by an anti-Mormon group stationed in Utah.

Brother Penrose uses hate speech telling off The Church of England and gives his opinion why the working classes do not attend worship services in that Church all while he was stationed in England.

Brother Penrose uses a scripture out of context without understand that scripture (Mormon 8:33-41) the exact same way today’s anti-Mormons use Rev. 22:18-19 in a vain and futile attempt to disprove the BofM.

In the case of the Revelation scripture there is a specific provision (Rev. 14:6) that predicts additional scripture will be delivered to the inhabitants of the earth by an angel. In the case of Mormon 8:33-41 there is a specific identifying provision which latter-day church is involved and that church would start out as “the holy church of God” in the latter-days or in other words The Restored Church of Jesus Christ.

Just like the uninspired anti-Mormons who grab at Rev. 22:18-19 to desperately prove the BofM wrong; Brother Charles W. Penrose grabbed at Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) in a desperate and vain attempt to prove The Church of England wrong when the scripture he was using specifically condemns Mormons who polluted The True Church and had absolutely nothing to do with The Church of England.

On my website I have also named Jesus Christ’s Warning, The Exploding Boomerang Warning, for good cause. Because even if Mormons attempt to throw this Warning away, or use it on someone else, it will eventually come back like a boomerang and explode right in their faces because of the tremendous truths it contains against the Mormon people and especially the G.A.s.

It is interesting to me Brother Penrose did to The Church of England exactly what the Mormon Church excommunicates Mormons for today with one exception; Brother Penrose used flawed logic to “transfigure” scriptures in his publications, modern-day Mormons are excommunicated for telling the truth if it goes against the G.A.s.

Thank you Tony for bringing this Millennial Star article to our attention. I love you so much for your efforts.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Politically correct speech is terrorism because anyone who knows the truth can be terrorized into shutting up or face the consequences. Sometimes the consequences can be dire such as a huge law suite, losing your job, getting beat up or even death (no kidding). Considering the First Amendment Right of Freedom of Speech (USA) politically correct speech is unconstitutional and should be against the law.

When you shut down honest debate you create a vacuum and whatever the dominate power provides as information becomes automatically the @#$-u-med truth. That is dangerous no matter what the setting even in a small scale family setting.

This is exactly why The Muslim Brotherhood (Sharia Law in the U.S., The Islamic State known as ISIS, etc.) has gotten such a stronghold in America because there is no allowance for intelligent debate against this Muslim threat. If anyone thinks Sharia Law hasn’t got a foot hold in America do a Google search for “Sharia Law in the United States” and see for yourself.

It is a darn good thing America was not shackled with politically correct speech at the beginning of WWII or we probably would have lost. At that time there were official U.S. War Department news reels specifically asking civilians, during the fighting of WWII; “Have you killed a Jap today?” As a direct result The Allied Nations had resolve to win, marched to victory and WWII ended in unconditional surrenders with both Germany and Japan.

So it is with The Church. Politically correct Church policies are contained in the secret Leadership Policy Manuals that limit free speech and debate on matters of The Church. No doubt if the average Mormon were able to examine and read for themselves these Socialist and Communist style governing Church practices right in official Church Manuals there would be at least a weakening of The Faith and at worst a revolt of some kind like the masses withholding their tithing money.

Fortunately The Church doesn’t have the power of capital punishment or I, and many other honest Saints like me, would be dead and be eliminated from the debate right now. Incidentally any debate on Church matters has to happen outside of The Church structure for now.

What has happened in The Church is Socialist minded G.A.s have introduced Socialism into the government of The Church just exactly like Socialist minded Democrats have done the same thing with the U.S. Federal Government.

The result has been the weak kneed Mormons have decided to go along to get along so Socialism has won in The Church exactly the same way weak kneed Republicans have decided to go along to get along so Socialism has won in the U.S. Federal Government.

If anyone thinks America hasn’t become a Socialist country just remember G.M. (Government Motors) and Obama Care which is The Government’s bully attempt to nationalize the entire health care industry which now represents 1/6 of the total U.S. Economy.

Now if anyone thinks The Church hasn’t become a Socialist church just remember those secret Leadership Policy Manuals. Socialist and Communist societies work in secret. Jesus Christ works in the open without secrecy (Ether 8:19).

Obviously points of Church doctrine are dictated by revelation from God but Church policy like the building of City Creek Center Mall and the new huge Conference Center should have been considered with input and debate from the rank and file membership because the rank and file membership paid for it.


“What more can He say than to you He hath said” (How firm a Foundation Hymn #85) kind of sums this all up. Jesus Christ has given fair and complete warnings the Mormon Church would become polluted with G.A. “hypocrites” leading the way. The G.A.s have followed through with undeniable acts and examples of “pollutions” that could only be achieved by “hypocrites” in a Christian Church setting.


My dear Brothers and Sisters, please don’t @#$-u-me all is well in Zion when the prophecies and the evidence say different. Follow the direct commandment of Jesus Christ “that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation” and do something positive about it so you can report favorably to The Lord (Moroni 10:27).


Brother Jim

[BroJones]

Marc wrote 1 mar 15
post by marc » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:59 am

You're new, Tony, so I understand. This general forum is supposed to be a Denver Snufferfree, apostate free, pro LDS forum,

Really? why is it not so then?

(See examples to the contrary in this very thread!)

[ajax]

Marc wrote 1 mar 15
post by marc » Sun Mar 01, 2015 12:59 am

You're new, Tony, so I understand. This general forum is supposed to be a Denver Snufferfree, apostate free, pro LDS forum,

Really? why is it not so then?

(See examples to the contrary in this very thread!)

I thought LDS embraced truth, no matter what the source. Kinda reminds me of the idea of academic freedom, no?

[samizdat]

Could it be our pride is so great we have fulfilled this scripture? We don't think we are capable of sin and all warnings are for others.

Does it mean that even if we engage in the behavior warned about in the book that God doesn't care because we are special? What other sins are we exempt from?

Do we engage in the behavior warned about? Have we built up our church to get gain? Maybe, I think that mall was built to get gain and so are all the other businesses the church owns. I can think of no other church that has been built to get gain as much as the LDS church. No other church is as focused on business and making a profit as the LDS are.

What about our buildings? Have we built fancy buildings? Have you seen the conference center? What about the temples? Did you know the church owns more building space than any other organization in the USA, including the government? More space than Walmart.

Do we love money, fine clothes and fine buildings more than the poor? Could that money have been spent on the poor?

Do we seek the praise of the world? What was Meet the Mormons all about?

I am sorry but the shoe seems to fit. Only pride can keep you from seeing your own sins.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Every MEMBER of the Church from the person baptized yesterday to the Prophets are capable of sin.

You really live a sheltered life, Thomas. I know of SEVERAL Churches that have a lot more invested in businesses than the LDS Church does. I mentioned that the LDS Church is the only church up to now in Mexico that has released its patrimony. The Catholics have SO MUCH more than the Mormons do. Many churches here in downtown Puebla have gold domes on them and interiors also made of gold. And those are only the Churches...they have many other things too. In other LATAM countries the Catholics RECEIVE money directly from the government. Everyone pays taxes to the Catholic Church no matter what your religion is. The same is true in several European countries no matter if you are Protestant, Catholic, or Orthodox.

Have you checked out the Orthodox churches in Eastern Europe? They also have so much gold on their churches and in many cases even receive subsidiaries from the governments.

They say the Mormon Church is so big and so rich. A patrimony that is valued at 2 billion dollars in a country where there are the second most members, the third most stakes, the second most temples, and the second most wards and branches, when compared to the country at large with a GDP of 1 and a half TRILLION dollars, is really quite small, a little more than one tenth of one percent.

It goes to mind the scripture from 1 Nephi where the dominions of the Church of the Lamb would remain small due to the power of the Great and Abominable Church, when we put things into perspective.

Church membership approx. 15.5 million.
World population approx. 7100 million (7.1 billion)
Percentage members of the Church: Approx 0.21 (slightly higher than one fifth of ONE PERCENT)

Declared Patrimony that the Church has in Mexico: approx 2 billion dollars.
Total GDP in Mexico: approx 1.5 trillion dollars.
Percentage of GDP of Mexico: Approx 0.13 (around a seventh of ONE PERCENT).

Estimated Patrimony of the worldwide Church: 25 billion dollars.
Total World GDP: 75 trillion dollars.
Percentage of worldwide GDP: Approx 0.033 (around a thirtieth of ONE PERCENT).

The estimates above are based on Mexico having around a tenth of the entire Church population, which has been true for quite some time. And though Mexico is generally poorer than the United States, they have been self sufficient in missionary forces since 2006.

So when we look at these numbers we do see that the Church appears to be quite rich but is in fact quite weak compared to the rest of the world. They are stable financial wise which is good. They are still completing the scripture in 1 Nephi where it said that its dominions would be small in comparison with the world. And even 10 percent would be considered quite small, imagine a tenth of one percent, which is 100x less than 10 percent, and you start to see how small the Church is compared with the rest of the world.

[jwharton]

So when we look at these numbers we do see that the Church appears to be quite rich but is in fact quite weak compared to the rest of the world. They are stable financial wise which is good. They are still completing the scripture in 1 Nephi where it said that its dominions would be small in comparison with the world. And even 10 percent would be considered quite small, imagine a tenth of one percent, which is 100x less than 10 percent, and you start to see how small the Church is compared with the rest of the world.

It will remain quite weak so long as it continues to tithe on consumption instead of tithing on abundance (surplus/increase). It will also remain quite weak so long as it does not administer the common fund of the collective tithed surpluses in such a way that its members can avoid the monetary system of Babylon, such as paying mortgage interest and rents instead of increasing their own net worth and inheritance.

If the church is collecting tithes that are unworthy, because people aren't producing surplus, it will financially poison the church. It will get it addicted to the far greater amount of income it is tapping into that yet leaves its members impoverished and without an inheritance. It is also abdicating one of its most critical functions to exalt the poor by abasing the rich, but in a way that doesn't steal from the rich and dole out to the poor. I would much rather not be allowed to pay any tithes until I was actually living in such a way that I was producing positive net worth and surplussing to my inheritance that the church administered. Those who are poor don't get handouts they can do with as they please, which encourages irresponsibility, but rather they can get a usury-free loan from the collective inheritances of the members administered by the bishop whose operations are funded with the tithe portion.

What we would end up with then is a completely new shift in mindset of the membership of the church. The goal would be just as much to lay up in store our treasures in our eternal inheritance as it would be to have our family relationships sealed up into our eternal inheritance. What good does it do to have an eternal family with no eternal inheritance to provide for them?

Tithing should NOT be on income and the saints should not be expected to administer their own inheritances. It shafts the POOR.

[ajax]

I can think of no other church that has been built to get gain as much as the LDS church. No other church is as focused on business and making a profit as the LDS are.

The RCC. samizdat is right. Just a cursory review of RCC history is mind boggling. They've had an 1800 yr head start however. We are infants compared to them. However, being on the same path is disheartening. Such a path gets you into bed with a lot of unsavory bed fellows.

[Robert Sinclair]

Plain and simple as it has been written:

"The heads up Jacob and princes of the house of Israel pervert all equity."

Therefore "Zion shall be plowed as a field".

They have been commanded from the beginning to be equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly.

They refuse and rebel, and they who so do, are going to hell.

They shall not pass by the sentinels that guard the celestial gates and enter into the celestial kingdom of God, but be sent to bake in the lake, until well done like a cake.

Till they make another pass, or even a few more passes, through the fires of refinement of hell, awakening saying, "What have I to do anymore with idols?" , and they are well. ♡

They shall learn when they burn, flung just like dung, for this you should know, dung can help things grow. ♡ ♡

[Obrien]

You are correct, Ajax. And, as it is pertinent to this thread, notice that the BoM shines a light on the RCC in 1Nephi. The foundation, progress, goals, desires and eventual downfall of it and the GAC is lined out in perfect detail. One thing that is missing, however, is the direct appeal from the prophet (Nephi in this case) to the GAC to repent. It's as if Nephi is seeing the GAC in vision, and reporting the events he saw without a call to repent, because calling the GAC to repentance in the BoM doesn't make any sense since they don't regard the BoM as scripture.

In Mormon chapter 8, we have a direct prophetic vision of the church in the last days, and a specific warning to us, that it is corrupted and transfigured and polluted. We are the only people for whom such a warning makes sense, since we are the only people that read the BoM. Jesus is pretty smart, to include the warning for the people who need it most.

[deep water]

Church and thoughts on Zion

The law of Moses was perfect in its creation. It fulfilled the purpose for which Christ created it, perfectly.
The earthly church was perfect in its creation. It is fulfilling the purpose for which Christ created it, perfectly.
In the time of Moses the Lord ask Moses to ask the people to repent and prepare to come upon the mountain to meet God. For three days they prepared, then approached the mountain. When the Lord descended they were so afraid they fled back down and told Moses to address the Lord in their behalf. For this act the Lord cursed them with the Law of Moses, because they refused the higher sanacifiation offered to them.
One Law of heaven is that there has to be opposition in all things. Lucifer's plan was in opposition to Christ's plan.
The BOM and PoGP and the other revelations, and teachings given to JS brought so much true Gospel Doctrine into the world in such a plain and simple manner that there had to be something created for opposition. JS, same as Moses, offered the teachings to bring people up on the Mountain to meet Christ, so to speak. (The BOM and Lectures of Faith and most of D&C) Then the earthly church was created in opposition to all this Gospel evidence. So as I see it, one path is to search, seek, hunger, thirst, fast, pray, work out your salvation with fear and trembling before the Lord, or you can simply sit upon the front row, following your leaders, and Know you are saved.
The crowning act of the Law of Moses was Christ's scourging and crucifixion.
The crowning act of the earthly church, will be the destruction of its members. Those who refused to climb the hill for whatever reason. There is no safety found in the earthly Churches or there ordinances. Types and Shadows
Reread 2 Ne 33:14-15

Zion; How to win How to lose
Post by deep water » Wed May 07, 2014 9:37 am
Zion is a unique people, A strange and peculiar people. I have seen Zion in vision. I was given this list of Zion attributes. I was a member of Zion for 19 years. I am not tooting my horn, rather I am offering up my qualifications of my learning. And the learning if you will have it. First what does a Zion person look like, and how do I become one? Look at the list below and burn them into your soul, this is what your desire's are. THIS is Christs Church, The Church of the First Born. A Church or Kingdom not of this world. Peopled by a strange and peculiar people. All earthly Churches are masquerading as Gods Church, but are what Lehi, and Nephi, and Mornoi say they are. Here is the list Moroni gives so we can recognize Christs Church from the masqueraders.
1. they are built on Christ's Gospel
2. Have had their garments washed in his blood.
3. have all things in common.
4. heal the sick.
5. raise the dead.
6. cause the lame to walk.
7. cause the blind to see.
8. cause the deaf to hear.
9. have all manner of miracles.
10. never a happier people.
11. drink poison and it doesn't harm them.
12. received the holy ghost
13. cast out devils.
14. pick up serpents and receive no harm.
15. speak in tongues.
16. lay hands on the sick and they will recover.
17. No contentions or disputations.
18. all free (They are free in prison, persecution, wherever they are, they are free.) Free of the chains of hell.
19.no pour or rich.
20. no lying or murdering.
21. no envy or strife.
22. no sick or lame among them.-------
(these are the gifts Zion enjoys, not the things that those who are repenting and searching for, enjoy.)
So how can I a sinner start upon the path to Zion. First repent of all your sins. Make restitution where and if you can. If you have stolen, replace more than you took. After you have repented and made restitution, look at your life. Look honestly at your needs, wants, and desires. Rid yourself of any desires, wants, or needs that are not righteous. Do not live above your righteous needs. Makeup, nice cloths, a closet full of handbags and shoes, toys, entertainment. Save as much excess in heaven as possible. Allow God to work miracles in your life instead of taking care of your needs, wants and desires in Babylon. Now after you have overcome the need to be of the world, God will have respect for you. He will start to work with you. Test you. Pass your tests. To pass your test you will need a deep understanding of the scriptures so you will know the best response to any and all situations. To not have all of Gods commandments placed firmly in your soul, is to fail somewhere along the way. These will I do at all costs, these will I not do at all costs. God tells us to prepare and to be ready if you choose to pursue this high stakes life. High reward= high risk.
Now once you have achieved these personal goals you are ready to yoke yourself to like minded travelers. You cannot yoke yourself with the non believers. In does not work that way. Those who have chosen to stay in Babylon live by the rules of Babylon. You cannot take their burdens on. You live in the faith of your God, they live in the faith of their Babylon. Does God say that you can share your oil. No the oil is for the believers. JS spoke to this; He said that if you have the faith to heal then heal, If you do not, and are going to the DR.s go to them early rather than after you have made an attempt at faith. If you choose faith then if they die, it is because God wanted it that way. You accept and move on. Not questioning or wondering, what if. You cannot take 2 million dollars and try to save a 5 month term premature baby. Even babylon has proved that it cannot do that and stay solvent. Yet babylon would put in laws to force us to try. Some will say I am hard hearted.They will say, what if that person grew up to find the cure for cancer. I say God already knows the cure for cancer, and so do we; FAITH.

[Robert Sinclair]

In order to do all that healing of the blind and crippled and deaf, they must first heal themselves of spiritual blindness and deafness and crippling actions of inequality among us.

They must do as the invitation from Jesus Christ beckons, to bring forth fruits equal and delightful unto the Lord, by preparing for the poor and needy among us, a feast of fat things required, well refined, and bring his bride, the church, out of the closet, clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness and purity of heart of all things common among them, giving stewardships of inheritances of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints sufficient for the support of their families, that they may have oil in their lamps to shine brightly in the darkness of the teachings of men, as a light and an ensign for all the world to see, as to how to treat the poor among us, confounded no more, on how to treat the poor.

♡ ♡

Then wait with patient hope, for the bridegroom to come forth and bless and baptize you with cloven tongues of fire and power from on high to go forth and physically open up the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the deaf and healing all manner of crippling afflictions among us. ♡ ♡

[Jim Kelley]

Brother Obrien,

A-men to what you said, "In Mormon chapter 8, we have a direct prophetic vision of the church in the last days, and a specific warning to us, that it is corrupted and transfigured and polluted. We are the only people for whom such a warning makes sense, since we are the only people that read the BoM. Jesus is pretty smart, to include the warning for the people who need it most."

May I also add that Mormons also have the only church in the latter-days that even comes close to qualifying as "the holy church of God."

Actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints qualifies perfectly for "the holy church of God" in the latter-days.

Where much is given much is expected and where much blessings are bestowed much responsibility is required.

We have the one and only True Church on the face of the whole earth. It is all of our responsibilities to keep The Church holy.

Denial that anything is wrong will not help but awakening (Ether 8:24) to the obvious corruptions, "pollutions" and "hypocrites" can help.

Bro. Jim

[jwharton]

This is material from a talk given in 1969 by Ezra Taft Benson.

The Lord distinguishes between the Church and its members. He said he was well pleased with the restored Church, speaking collectively, but not individually. (D&C 1:30.) During his ministry on earth, the Lord spoke of the gospel net drawing in fish. The good fish, he said, were gathered into vessels, while the bad were cast away.

It is important to realize that while the Church is made up of mortals, no mortal is the Church. Judas, for a period of time, was a member of the Church—in fact, one of its apostles—but the Church was not Judas.

Disharmony of some members

Sometimes we hear someone refer to a division in the Church. In reality, the Church is not divided. It simply means that there are some who, for the time being at least, are members of the Church but not in harmony with it. These people have a temporary membership and influence in the Church; but unless they repent, they will be missing when the final membership records are recorded.

It is well that our people understand this principle, so they will not be misled by those apostates within the Church who have not yet repented or been cut off. But there is a cleansing coming. The Lord says that his vengeance shall be poured out "upon the inhabitants of the earth. . . . And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord; First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me. . . ." (D&C 112:24-26.) I look forward to that cleansing; its need within the Church is becoming increasingly apparent.

The Lord strengthened the faith of the early apostles by pointing out Judas as a traitor, even before this apostle had completed his iniquitous work. So also in our day the Lord has told us of the tares within the wheat that will eventually be hewn down when they are fully ripe. But until they are hewn down, they will be with us, amongst us. The hymn entitled "Though in the Outward Church Below" contains this thought:

"Though in the outward Church below

Both wheat and tares together grow,

Ere long will Jesus weed the crop

And pluck the tares in anger up. . . .

We seem alike when here we meet;

Strangers may think we are all wheat;

But to the Lord's all-searching eyes,

Each heart appears without disguise.

The tares are spared for various ends,

Some for the sake of praying friends,

Others the Lord against their will,

Employs, his counsels to fulfill.

But though they grow so tall and strong,

His plan will not require them long;

In harvest, when he saves his own,

The tares shall into hell be thrown."

(Hymns, No. 102.)

Tares among the wheat

Yes, within the Church today there are tares among the wheat and wolves within the flock. As President Clark stated, "The ravening wolves are amongst us, from our own membership, and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing because they wear the habiliments of the priesthood. . . . We should be careful of them. . . ." (Era, May 1949, p. 268. See also, Conference Report, April 1949, p. 163.)

The wolves amongst our flock are more numerous and devious today than when President Clark made this statement.

President McKay has said that "the Church is little, if at all, injured by persecution and calumnies from ignorant, misinformed or malicious enemies. A greater hindrance to its progress comes from faultfinders, shirkers, commandment-breakers, and apostate cliques within its own ecclesiastical and quorum groups." (Era, December 1967, p. 35. See also, Conference Report, October 1967, p. 9.)

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: ". . . they have all gone astray save it a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." (2 Ne. 28:14.)

The precepts of men

Let us consider some of the precepts of men that may and do cause some of the humble followers of Christ to err.

Christ taught that we should be in the world but not of it. Yet there are some in our midst who are not so much concerned about taking the gospel into the world as the are about bringing worldliness into the gospel. They want us to be in the world and of it. They want us to be popular with the worldly even though a prophet has said that this is impossible, for all hell would then want to join us.

Through their own reasoning and a few misapplied scriptures, they try to sell us the precepts and philosophies of men. They do not feel the Church is progressive enough—they say that it should embrace the social and socialist gospel of apostate Christendom.

They are bothered that President McKay believes that "the social side of the Restored Gospel is only an incident of it; it is not the end thereof." (Letter of the First Presidency to Dr. Lowry Nelson, July 17, 1947.)

They attack the Church for not being in the forefront of the so-called "civil rights movement." They are embarrassed over some Church doctrine, and as Lehi foretold, the scoffing of the world over this and other matters will cause some of them to be ashamed and they shall fall away. (See 1 Ne. 8:28.)

[Jim Kelley]

Dear jwharton,

Thank you soooo much for sharing Elder Benson's talk.

What a great man of God and as I have said before a man who speaks straightforward for the Lord.

I see this talk as complimenting Jesus Christ's Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine).

As I have said before The Church organization is incapable of polluting itself. It will take members and G.A.s to do the polluting.

In Jesus Christ's Warning we see that "your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts" (verse 36).

So obviously the pollutions spoken by the Lord will infect every branch, ward and stake.

This has been done with the secret Leadership Policy Manuals that require local Church leaders to punish local Saints who raise legitimate concerns about the direction of Church policy or the lack of policy in some instances.

Obviously Church doctrine is dictated by direct revelation from God but Church policy is something members should have some say in because members are paying the bill with their tithes and offerings.

For The Church to spend tithing money on projects like the City Creek Center Mall is just wrong and should have never happened.

It is important to note the term "churches" means "another branch of the Church; not another denomination" (footnote for D&C 51:10).

Again thank you for this insight.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

May I also add to my explanations that to speak "ill" of the Lord's anointed is another pollution in those secret Leadership Policy Handbooks.

In the temple the wording is to not speak "evil" of the Lord's anointed. There is a difference.

In the secret manuals The First Presidency has "transfigured" the temple endowment ordinance to mean a member of The Church "shall" not speak ill of a Church leader or that member "shall" be reprimanded even unto excommunication "even if what is said is true."

The temple endowment ordinance to not speak evil only means to not lie about the Lord's anointed.

To speak the truth is a basic Gospel Principle and in the U.S.A. a First Amendment Right.