The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8

[Epistemology]

Dear Epistemology,

Going over the story again,

The rich man-miser later became poor and humble but if he would have discovered the gold then he would become proud again and be damned in his eternal life.

Did I do good teacher?

Bro. Jim

yes

but that's not the overall lesson of the story

[Thinker]

Possible lessons from Epistemology's parable...

1) Trust in God not men, for "God seeth not as man seeth, God looketh on the heart." God doesn't care if you are in a societal idol in a suit and tie sitting in a Pharisee seat or a humble farmer in poverty - God looks on your heart.

2) Trust in God above the flesh because God sees what we do not. People are imperfect - never trust in them before God - not even those who society pressures you to worship.

3) Those who are humble will be exhalted and those who lift themselves up will be made humble. Those who steal from the poor and pride themselves on their wealth, power and religious influence will be made poor, and those who have been deprived of tithes intended for them (Deut 14:28-29) and suffer thereby, will be exhalted.

The last one I take issue with because it teaches the evil of Heaven's Reward Fallacy. We are God's hands - so even if those who are neglected of fataly needed care will be exhalted, through many parables like the Good Samaritan, Jesus taught to love those within our sphere of influence, especially care for those in need. "One these two commandments hang all if the law and the prophets."

[Jim Kelley]

The Mormon Bubble.

Mormons purposely live inside of a bubble separating themselves from the rest of the world. This can be good when it comes to matters of The Word Of Wisdom but when it becomes pride, mocking and rude activities to those outside of the bubble that can interfere with missionary work and missionary success.

There are examples right on LDS Freedom Forum where Mormons have mocked others in a rude, I know everything and you don’t, way so no one can deny this.

The subject of stagnate convert baptism numbers have been a legitimate topic of concern. There is no doubt the convert baptism numbers are tweaked as much as Church leaders dare to in an effort to make the convert baptisms look as good as possible. One example is if a child of record is close to being nine years old the local Church leaders may express their willingness to wait until that child becomes nine so it will count as a convert baptism. I have heard this with my own ears and there is no telling how the numbers are tweaked elsewhere we could never find out about.

When I lived in the Independence, Mo. Stake it was discussed we were not baptizing as many people that were out there that really wanted to accept The Restored Gospel and our Stake leaders suggested, if we are not 100% in our home & visiting teaching, reading the scriptures every day, having prayers every day, have our food storage, genealogy prepared, etc., then why would The Lord bless us with more missionary experiences and baptisms?

Obviously if we as a people have become so “polluted” as a Church that we cannot be faithful in these basic Gospel Principles then why would we experience more baptisms which would lead to more people to home & visit teach when we don’t visit the ones we have now?

I think the key to more baptisms, that is taking The Restored Gospel to all the world, rests in our own worthiness as a Church to do those things The Lord has already asked us to do first. Then He will add more missionary experiences and convert baptisms to us as a Church.

Would you as a parent, having a young child who has not learned to make their own bed, pile more responsibilities on that child? No you keep teaching the child to make their bed until they get it right and then you teach them more things and give them more responsibilities. So it is with our relationship with The Lord. Once we get it and do that which He has already asked us to do them we will be given more and more missionary experiences. Until them the missionary experiences we do get will be a result of a non-member’s prayers and not our own prayers because our prayers would be in vain.

In case anyone wants to know I never was a full-time missionary because I joined as an adult but as a member missionary I taught and baptized five converts.

The question remains if Mormons will set aside their pride, mocking others and rudeness to enjoy more missionary experiences? We will see. The figures will tell the story.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Thinker,

With your, "Possible lessons from Epistemology's parable...," are there any parallels that you see to Mormon Chapter Eight?

Bro. Jim

[Thinker]

Dear Thinker,

With your, "Possible lessons from Epistemology's parable...," are there any parallels that you see to Mormon Chapter Eight?

Bro. Jim

Yeah, I think they're self-explanatory.

To be honest, I feel humbled because I know it's talking to me too. I know I fall short of my ideal and am hypocritical. There's much more I could be doing than talking/writing about it.

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Thinker (and others),

When I first read Epistemology’s post on the story about The Rabbi at first I thought what does this have to do with Mormon Chapter Eight?

Then I studied it and studied it again and then I could see some points of similarly.

I asked you if you could see any parallels as a rhetorical question to see your prospective first before giving mine and as you suggest they are self- explanatory and I would suggest self-evident.

So thank you Epistemology.

The BofM was written to all of us no matter what chapter or verse and that is humbling to me that God would think so much of me to provide the BofM for my benefit and learning as well as all people on this earth if we would only read, ponder and listen to The Holy Ghost.

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained the BofM was the most correct book of scripture we have. I have wondered about that, since The Prophet said that, because we have also received the D&C as well as The Pearl of Great Price. So are these latter-day scriptures equally correct?

Then President Benson, when he was The Prophet, spoke and plainly stated the BofM was still the most correct book of scripture we have and a person would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.

When President Benson said that The Spirit came over me and let me know that was a correct principle.

President Benson also warned the Saints that we as a Church were under condemnation for not using the BofM enough which could be a type of a pollution too that the Lord is not pleased with in Mormon Chapter Eight.

I really miss President Benson. He was not a polished speaker but he spoke straight forward and you just knew he spoke according to what he knew the Lord wanted him to say.

I remember President Hinckley challenged the whole Church, I think it was 2005, to read the BofM together as a Church. I think most of the active Saints did just that because there was a special BofM Spirit that came over the whole Church at that time. You could feel it, you could sense it and you could almost see it, it was so powerful.

I wonder if we as a Church were to read the BofM together again if we could experience that special BofM Spirit again and maybe, just maybe, there would be a spike in convert baptisms because The Holy Ghost would be so strong among the Saints all at once the missionary experiences would just keep coming and coming as well as the baptisms too? Something to think about.

Bro. Jim

[Tony]

I have not read thru this entire thread, but the idea that Mormon 8 is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ludicrous. Moroni is talking about what things will be like when the Book of Mormon comes forth.

26 And it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

Verse 26 is obviously not the Church. We believe in miracles, even if there are members who do not believe.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

Verse 27 is obviously not the Church. It states that the blood of saints came about because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

Verse 28 is obviously about all the false churches and their leaders.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

Verses 29-30 clearly define the world situation we have been seeing for the past 100 years.

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

Verse 31 describes the world (Babylon) that we know so well.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

In Micah 3:10-11, the Lord specifically criticizes “priests” that “teach for hire.” Not having priests who “teach for hire” is a Godly precept that is clearly explained in the Book of Mormon.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

Verse 33 is talking about the false churches that interpret the Bible and preach false doctrine. God’s revelations in the Bible and in Latter-day scripture condemn the false churches and prophecy of the day when “the good will overcome the bad” (Jacob 5:66 ).

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

This, again, is Moroni’s vision of what will happen to the false churches.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

Verses 35-36 describe the false churches.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

In 2 Nephi, chapter 28, which is cited below, Nephi describes the false churches precisely as Moroni did.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Again, see 2 Nephi below, and we in the Church have taken upon us the name of Christ.

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

See 2 Nephi below regarding verses 39-41 of Mormon chapter 8.

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

As I noted, Nephi said almost the exact same thing to his people, which we can read in 2 Nephi, chapter 28, verse 9-15:

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

You are right, you have not read all that is relevant and so your understanding is incomplete.

Please read and consider my next article I wrote after a dream.

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

At 2:30 AM this morning I awoke from a dream, a dream in which The Lord showed me in vision all a person needs to have to understand Jesus Christ’s Warning is within the covers of The Book Of Mormon.

When I awoke I pondered the meaning of this dream and reflected upon references in this thread and board of the story of the Rabbi and the Book of the prophet Hosea and The Holy Ghost impressed upon me these cute and cleaver accounts serve only as a distraction, smoke and mirrors to Jesus Christ’s Warning as contained in Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine.

I further pondered some of the supporting scriptures for Jesus Christ’s Warning I was aware of in the Four Standard Works and The Holy Ghost impressed up me there is a reason we have The Four Standard Works and this has been inspired of God to serve as a benchmark for everything else that is righteous and true.

Then I reflected upon some missionary experiences I observed decades ago and the revelation I received then by “the Spirit and power of God,” that all we need to know The Book Of Mormon is true is within the covers of The Book Of Mormon. Even if The Book Of Mormon were the only book in the whole earth it would still be all we would need to have to search out the truth and pray to gain our own sure testimony it is true.

Here is what I think this all means:

If we have a testimony of Jesus Christ and The Book Of Mormon then we will believe the Words of Christ in Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine.

If we believe The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints is the one and only True Church upon the face of the whole earth since the publication of The Book Of Mormon (1830) then we will know with sure knowledge The Church is “the holy church of God” as stated in Mormon 8:38.

If we believe the Words of Christ then we will know with sure knowledge “ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers” are a collective description of the General Authorities who have “polluted the holy church of God” because Jesus Christ said so.

A true believer does not need any supporting evidence like the City Creek Center Mall or anything else because we have the Words of Christ, the absolute Supreme Authority, that tells us all we need to know and it is well expressed and laid out in Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine if we also understand the Proper English Grammar Rules that apply. Jesus Christ's Warning, Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine, is word perfect if we understand Proper English Grammar Rules. The dramatic change of pronoun usage to 1st and 2nd, present tense starting with verse 33 is proof positive Moroni is speaking directly to Mormons about The Church of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints.

If a person needs more to believe than they really don’t believe in Christ, because Christ’s Words alone are not enough for them and Chapter Nine is an additional Warning from Jesus Christ to them. A-men.

Brother Jim Kelley

[samizdat]

Dear Thinker (and others),

When I first read Epistemology’s post on the story about The Rabbi at first I thought what does this have to do with Mormon Chapter Eight?

Then I studied it and studied it again and then I could see some points of similarly.

I asked you if you could see any parallels as a rhetorical question to see your prospective first before giving mine and as you suggest they are self- explanatory and I would suggest self-evident.

So thank you Epistemology.

The BofM was written to all of us no matter what chapter or verse and that is humbling to me that God would think so much of me to provide the BofM for my benefit and learning as well as all people on this earth if we would only read, ponder and listen to The Holy Ghost.

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained the BofM was the most correct book of scripture we have. I have wondered about that, since The Prophet said that, because we have also received the D&C as well as The Pearl of Great Price. So are these latter-day scriptures equally correct?

Then President Benson, when he was The Prophet, spoke and plainly stated the BofM was still the most correct book of scripture we have and a person would get closer to God by abiding by its precepts than by any other book.

When President Benson said that The Spirit came over me and let me know that was a correct principle.

President Benson also warned the Saints that we as a Church were under condemnation for not using the BofM enough which could be a type of a pollution too that the Lord is not pleased with in Mormon Chapter Eight.

I really miss President Benson. He was not a polished speaker but he spoke straight forward and you just knew he spoke according to what he knew the Lord wanted him to say.

I remember President Hinckley challenged the whole Church, I think it was 2005, to read the BofM together as a Church. I think most of the active Saints did just that because there was a special BofM Spirit that came over the whole Church at that time. You could feel it, you could sense it and you could almost see it, it was so powerful.

I wonder if we as a Church were to read the BofM together again if we could experience that special BofM Spirit again and maybe, just maybe, there would be a spike in convert baptisms because The Holy Ghost would be so strong among the Saints all at once the missionary experiences would just keep coming and coming as well as the baptisms too? Something to think about.

Bro. Jim

The Hastening the Work Challenge. FB page has invited everyone to spend these 40 days before GC to read the Book of Mormon and have it finished by GC. Not an official page I know but it is a start.

[samizdat]

I have not read thru this entire thread, but the idea that Mormon 8 is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ludicrous. Moroni is talking about what things will be like when the Book of Mormon comes forth.

26 And it shall come in a day when it shall be said that miracles are done away; and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead.

Verse 26 is obviously not the Church. We believe in miracles, even if there are members who do not believe.

27 And it shall come in a day when the blood of saints shall cry unto the Lord, because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

Verse 27 is obviously not the Church. It states that the blood of saints came about because of secret combinations and the works of darkness.

28 Yea, it shall come in a day when the power of God shall be denied, and churches become defiled and be lifted up in the pride of their hearts; yea, even in a day when leaders of churches and teachers shall rise in the pride of their hearts, even to the envying of them who belong to their churches.

Verse 28 is obviously about all the false churches and their leaders.

29 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be heard of fires, and tempests, and vapors of smoke in foreign lands;

Verses 29-30 clearly define the world situation we have been seeing for the past 100 years.

30 And there shall also be heard of wars, rumors of wars, and earthquakes in divers places.

31 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be great pollutions upon the face of the earth; there shall be murders, and robbing, and lying, and deceivings, and whoredoms, and all manner of abominations; when there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day. But wo unto such, for they are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity.

Verse 31 describes the world (Babylon) that we know so well.

32 Yea, it shall come in a day when there shall be churches built up that shall say: Come unto me, and for your money you shall be forgiven of your sins.

In Micah 3:10-11, the Lord specifically criticizes “priests” that “teach for hire.” Not having priests who “teach for hire” is a Godly precept that is clearly explained in the Book of Mormon.

33 O ye wicked and perverse and stiffnecked people, why have ye built up churches unto yourselves to get gain? Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God, that ye might bring damnation upon your souls? Behold, look ye unto the revelations of God; for behold, the time cometh at that day when all these things must be fulfilled.

Verse 33 is talking about the false churches that interpret the Bible and preach false doctrine. God’s revelations in the Bible and in Latter-day scripture condemn the false churches and prophecy of the day when “the good will overcome the bad” (Jacob 5:66 ).

34 Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

This, again, is Moroni’s vision of what will happen to the false churches.

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

Verses 35-36 describe the false churches.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

In 2 Nephi, chapter 28, which is cited below, Nephi describes the false churches precisely as Moroni did.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Again, see 2 Nephi below, and we in the Church have taken upon us the name of Christ.

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?

See 2 Nephi below regarding verses 39-41 of Mormon chapter 8.

40 Yea, why do ye build up your secret abominations to get gain, and cause that widows should mourn before the Lord, and also orphans to mourn before the Lord, and also the blood of their fathers and their husbands to cry unto the Lord from the ground, for vengeance upon your heads?

41 Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you; and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you, for he will not suffer their cries any longer.

As I noted, Nephi said almost the exact same thing to his people, which we can read in 2 Nephi, chapter 28, verse 9-15:

9 Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

10 And the blood of the saints shall cry from the ground against them.

11 Yea, they have all gone out of the way; they have become corrupted.

12 Because of pride, and because of false teachers, and false doctrine, their churches have become corrupted, and their churches are lifted up; because of pride they are puffed up.

13 They rob the poor because of their fine sanctuaries; they rob the poor because of their fine clothing; and they persecute the meek and the poor in heart, because in their pride they are puffed up.

14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

15 O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

Pretty nice commentary, Tony. No, the Church INSTITUTION is not mentioned in Mormon chapter 8. Even in D&C we have a quote where the Lord calls the LDS Church the one true Church, speaking COLLECTIVELY and not INDIVIDUALLY.

Can there be Mormons that fall on this warning in Mormon 8? Yes. Moroni is speaking to ALL of us. Read the warnings of Alma 5 also. This is how INDIVIDUALS can cut themselves off from salvation. It has nothing to do with the leaders. It has EVERYTHING to do with how we respond when the leaders being inspired of God invite us to lengthen our stride.

[Tony]

Mr. Kelley,

The church that Jesus Christ set up on the earth some 2000 years ago became polluted with false doctrine, false teachers, and false precepts. They "polluted the holy church of God" and brought about the apostasy. Only an apostate would think otherwise. Jesus Christ has restored his church and his doctrine.

[jwharton]

The church that Jesus Christ set up on the earth some 2000 years ago became polluted with false doctrine, false teachers, and false precepts. They "polluted the holy church of God" and brought about the apostasy. Only an apostate would think otherwise. Jesus Christ has restored his church and his doctrine.

So based on your logic what we have here is a person who lived in 400 AD in America who would be talking to people in the old world who lived a hundred or so years prior but they wouldn't ever have access to what he said until about 1500 years later after they were already long since dead?

Also, even if we were just getting the privilege of eavesdropping on Moroni's conversation with people that have been dead for over 1700 years now, shouldn't we also consider "if the shoe fits then wear it"?

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

What you say could be correct it you were to amend it after verse 33.

After verse 33 the pronoun usage drastically changes to 1st and 2nd, present tense showing Moroni is now talking to the reader if the reader is a member of "the holy church of God."

Bro. Jim

[Jim Kelley]

When good Brother Mitt Romney was running for President there were a lot of liars attempting to slander him every step of the way. Even our “Good Brother,” temple recommend holding, Harry Reid on the Senate Floor told that he knew with absolute certainty Mitt Romney had not filed or paid Federal income taxes for the past 10 years. Our “Good Brother” was proven a liar.

These slanderous statements were making the news much like the saying, “A lie can travel half way around the world before the truth even gets its shoes on.”

Many conservative radio talk show hosts were pointing this out that how such a good man like Mitt Romney could draw so much fire in the way of such outlandish lies being reported on the news and people were gullible enough to believed it.

There was a local talk show host in Springfield, Mo. that was pointing out how the lies against Mitt Romney were being reported in the news as truth and he was sticking up for Mitt Romney. Then a string of calls from Mormons came and chewed out this talk show host for lying about Mormons. It was hard to be able to discern exactly what these Mormons (at least they identified themselves as Mormons) were talking about because they seemed only interested in attacking the talk show host and when the host tried to explain he was defending Mitt Romney they hung up after saying some unkind things.

I guess it is possible these Mormons were defending Brother Harry Reid who is actually a known liar but if this is the case these Mormons were defending the wrong guy and attacking the wrong guy for sticking up for Mitt Romney.

This chain of Mormon phone calls were so offensive and so obviously rude that day was remembered and talked about well after the elections.

My point here is it is easy, when defending your Church and your religion, to get carried away and make a fool out of yourself.

Mormons can be a force for good if steered in the right direction. For example KSL (Church owned TV station in SLC) in about 1988, decided to attack Sunrider with a series of newsLESS evening reports one week. These newsLESS reports were so outrageous Mormons (who used Sunrider and knew personally their good qualities) started calling into the TV station complaining. The calls were so solid going into the TV station is was impossible for anyone inside the station to make a telephone call out (on a land line). This telephone demonstration resulted in the TV station allowing a representative of Sunrider, Dr. Black, to speak for Sunrider in the last segment (Friday night) and when he was allowed to speak he cleaned the clocks of all the naysayers.

Maybe what Thinker suggested is a good suggestion. If enough people called Church H.Q. that could make a difference. May I suggest you nicely requested President Monson give his official Church interpretation for “the holy church of God” then a lot of good can come out of the next General Conference if he were to report his interpretation then? Please go to Thinker’s previous post (page 7) for The Church’s 800 phone number.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

Taking Action to Unlock the Economic Contributions of “Americans-in-Waiting.” This is an official White House statement as reported by many news agencies (Do a Google search).

What is amazing is the “transfiguring” of the status of illegal-aliens who by definition are law breakers and who often suck off the welfare system, to the more sanitized term “Americans-in-Waiting.” Obviously some more hyphenating of names going on there.

This is such an outrageous demonstration of “transfiguring” that even Democrats are scratching their heads.

Mormons have right between the covers of their LDS edition of the scriptures just as much of a “transfiguring” of the scriptures. Two cases in point for Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) are:

In verse 33 it states, “Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?” Even though “ye” is a 2nd person, present tense pronoun meaning the current reader of the BofM the official foot note (33 c) makes a reference to “TG Apostassy of the Early Christian Church.” There couldn’t be anything more unscholarly or dishonest since Moroni is clearly talking to a latter-day people reading the BofM and not the Christians in the Meridian of Times (well over a thousand years ago).

In verse 41 it states, “Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you.” Even though “you” (just like “ye”) is a 2nd person, present tense pronoun the official Church reference in the BofM Index under the entry sword is “Morm. 8:41 s. [meaning sword] of vengeance hangs over the Nephites.”

How can Moroni be talking to other Nephites in 1st and 2nd person, present tense when all the other Nephites were killed or defected and became Lamanites. Why would Moroni speak of the Nephites when he earlier stated, “And now, behold, I say no more concerning them [meaning the Nephites], for there are none save it be the Lamanites” (Mormon 8:9). Don’t the G.A.s believe Moroni or maybe they missed verse 9 as well as the 1st and 2nd person, present tense usage of the pronouns starting with verse 33 right up to verse 41?

No matter what the reasons are it makes no difference. What we have has been preserved in between the covers of LDS scripture as two bold face, textbook examples, of G.A.s “transfiguring” verse 33 and verse 41 in a vein and unrighteous attempt to transfer blame to the early Christians and the Nephites from themselves The Church leadership. Is this not an example of being a “hypocrite” (verse 38)?

And who is ultimately responsible for the content between the covers of LDS edition scriptures? Yes, The First Presidency. If this is an honest mistake (doubtful) then they have a chance to correct it. I have written them several letters over the past three years about this and it hasn’t been corrected yet.

For those who have eyes, let them see for themselves.

Brother Jim

[Thomas]

Tony wrote: I have not read thru this entire thread, but the idea that Mormon 8 is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ludicrous. Moroni is talking about what things will be like when the Book of Mormon comes forth.

It seems L, Tom Perry doesn't agree with you.

He [Moroni] realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us. (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992)

[Robert Sinclair]

It is easy enough to judge:

Are they equal in their temporal things and this not grudgingly as Jesus Christ has commanded?

Hath not the very Eternal Father in Heaven said, that there is no one that is exempt from this law who belong to the church of the living God?

If you are not equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly you, as a church, are polluted and corrupt, and not right in his sight.

Well Enoch wrote of the latter day Twelve and Seventy Shepherds that destroy all the blind sheep, and they both, are going to be judged, found guilty, and thrust into the fiery abyss.

Good to awaken "if" possible as a slim chance seems to be given and commanded of the very Eternal Father in Heaven to Jesus Christ to say unto us, that "if" after rejecting the fullness of the gospel, you shall return, you shall be numbered among his people and not have to burn.

Shake yourselves and weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in church, and Zion, about the perversion of equity, that with enough faith and hope the old men and administers of the law of God might just give ear and awaken and acknowledge their offence against God.

And with broken hearts and contrite spirits atoning for going against the will of God, bring the bride out of the closet, that the bridegroom may come forth. ♡ ♡

[samizdat]

Tony wrote: I have not read thru this entire thread, but the idea that Mormon 8 is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ludicrous. Moroni is talking about what things will be like when the Book of Mormon comes forth.

It seems L, Tom Perry doesn't agree with you.

He [Moroni] realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us. (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992)

To the MEMBERS of the Church. Not the Church itself. Consistent with what I've been arguing here.

[Jim Kelley]

Dear Samizdat,

May I respectfully point out The Church is a corporation and has no free agency of and my itself. It would be as impossible for The Church to corrupt itself as a rock or a tree to corrupt itself but people can corrupt them and then the rock, the tree and The Church are then corrupted if people chose to do so.

Jesus Christ has made it perfectly clear by His Words, “And your churches [meaning every branch, ward and stake as has been explained earlier], yea, even every one, have become polluted” (verse 33).

Yea, The Church is incapable of “polluting” or corrupting itself however, when the G.A.s distribute secret Leadership Policy Manuals with corrupted policies contrary to true Gospel Principles and the G.A.s allow “transfiguring” to go on between the covers of The Four Standard Works then The Church has been corrupted for all the world to see. These are not “pollutions” of individuals but of The Church at large and are directly associated with The Church at large and not with any individual.

I hope and pray you give up your “arguing” because arguing is not the Lord’s way of doing His business.

Most respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Brother Jim

[Tony]

So based on your logic what we have here is a person who lived in 400 AD in America who would be talking to people in the old world who lived a hundred or so years prior but they wouldn't ever have access to what he said until about 1500 years later after they were already long since dead?

Moroni’s message was to all the apostate churches that existed on the earth when Jesus Christ restored his Church through the Prophet Joseph Smith. Those apostate churches still exist, and Moroni’s message is directed at them. Apostate churches continue to adhere to the teachings that first “polluted the holy church of God” about 1700 years ago.

Moroni’s message is in the same vein as Mormon’s message to the gentiles in 3 Nephi, Chapter 30:

“Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:

“Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.”

But if you want to apostatize from the Church because you think you know better than God's chosen and anointed servants, and you believe that the leaders of God's one true Church have “polluted” it, then go ahead and apostatize. Life is about making choices.

[Tony]

The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star was the official publication of the Church in the British Isles from 1840 to 1970.

The official position of the Church in 1868, as put forth in The Latter-day Saints' Millennial Star, was that Moroni was speaking of the apostate churches when he said they have “polluted the holy church of god.” The Millennial Star article specifically cited the “Church of England.” (see link)

Parley P. Pratt, an Apostle of the Church and the first editor of the periodical, outlined its purpose in its first issue, May, 1840, "The Millennial Star will stand aloof from the common political and commercial news of the day. Its columns will be devoted to the spread of the fulness of the gospel- the restoration of the ancient principles of Christianity-the gathering of Israel- the rolling forth of the kingdom of God among the nations- the signs of the times- ... in short, whatever is shown forth indicative of the coming of the 'Son of Man,' and the ushering in of his universal reign on the earth."

The presidents of the British Mission were always listed as the editors, among whom were five future Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, Joseph F. Smith, Heber J. Grant, George Albert Smith, and David O. McKay.

No General Authority, except L. Tom Perry, ever took the position that Moroni was speaking about members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And even Elder Perry did not say Moroni was speaking of leaders of the Church. Only apostates think Moroni was speaking of leaders of the Church.

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[Jim Kelley]

Dear Tony,

May I respectfully point out you make a good argument that all of Mormon 8:26-41 is directed to all the apostate churches that were and are apostate when the BofM was first published until even now, February 27, 2015.

At first glance, first study and even first prayers this would seem to be the case and so a lot of Mormons fervently believe this even to the point of defending their religion, their faith and even the G.A.s whom they only know by extension and not personally.

O.K. There is a lot of blaming the Lord is doing here in 17 verses, perhaps the most concentrated blaming found in the scriptures. The Lord God is obviously not happy with whoever He is refereeing to and remember these are the Words of Christ (Moroni 10:27) and this was explained on my earlier post.

Let’s pretend for a moment we do not have Mormon 8:26-41. Could we still come to the same conclusion the Mormon Church is corrupted? I think so for the following reasons:

First to understand Satan is to understand he will try to stop the Gospel of Jesus Christ at all costs and will try anything to achieve his goal to stop the holy work. So we can see by this illustration that since The Church is The True Church then The Church would be Satan’s #1 target and goal.

Second there are other LDS scriptures that warn us that, “It is the nature and disposition of almost all me [no exclusion for Mormon men here] as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose [this seems to me this is a direct reference to priesthood holders who do not understand the principles of the priesthood because government leaders do have absolute authority as they suppose], they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion” (D&C 121: 39). So we have a warning right in LDS scripture to watch out for “almost all men” in The Church that have priesthood authority. What percentage would be almost all? 50%. No. 75%. No. I don’t even think 90% would cover the “almost all.”

If someone took all of your money and then promised to give you back “almost all” of your money how much would you be expecting to get back? This illustration might give you some idea of how much “almost all” really is.

There are dozens of other examples in scripture that should warn us of corruptions or “pollutions” in The Church but in consideration of space I will stop with these two. For more examples go to my website.

So as you can see even if we did not have Jesus Christ’s Words as recorded in Mormon 8:33-41 we still should be suspicious and on high alert for “pollutions” in The Church because The Church is the #1 target of Satan and “almost all” of the men in The Church leadership are subject and suspect to “exercis[ing] unrighteous dominion.”

With these two principles in mind it may be easier to understand The Church could be corrupted and it may then be easier to see the dramatic pronoun change starting in verse 33 that tells us Moroni has switched subjects in his discourse. Yes in verses 26-32 Moroni is referring to the apostate churches that would exist at the time of the first printing of the BofM and obviously would continue until now. However, because of the pronoun change starting in verse 33 this illustrates Moroni has switched from talking [about] the apostate Christians and apostate churches to now talking to the Latter-day Saints and the one and only True Church in the latter-days that could even qualify as “the holy church of God.”

Please take a breath and look around and investigate this out in your own mind using correct principles and correct information just like the full-time missionaries advise an investigator who doesn’t yet know “the BofM is true and The Church is true.”

Everything is learned line upon line and precept upon precept and as long as what we are using is true and correct we will come to the truth in the end even if we stumble along the way.

Brother Jim

[Jim Kelley]

The Millennial Star is not scripture and not the official position of The Church at that time because The Prophet at that time did not write it, say it or personally endorse it.

What you say is interesting and can be considered but it would be hard to completely know what any article in the Millennial Star meant if we do not have the whole article to read and examine.

I want to commend you for your efforts in bring this to all of our attentions.

Remember my dream this morning? All we need to know about what Jesus Christ meant in Mormon Chapter Eight and Nine is in the BofM. Even if we had no other written material at all if we still had the BofM we would still be able to figure it out.

I would still like to read the whole Millennial Star article you are referring to. Do you have a link you can share?

Respectfully,

Bro. Jim

[Tony]

Dear Tony,

May I respectfully point out you make a good argument that all of Mormon 8:26-41 is directed to all the apostate churches that were and are apostate when the BofM was first published until even now, February 27, 2015.

At first glance, first study and even first prayers this would seem to be the case and so a lot of Mormons fervently believe this even to the point of defending their religion, their faith and even the G.A.s whom they only know by extension and not personally.

O.K. There is a lot of blaming the Lord is doing here in 17 verses, perhaps the most concentrated blaming found in the scriptures. The Lord God is obviously not happy with whoever He is refereeing to and remember these are the Words of Christ (Moroni 10:27) and this was explained on my earlier post.

Let’s pretend for a moment we do not have Mormon 8:26-41. Could we still come to the same conclusion the Mormon Church is corrupted? I think so for the following reasons:

First to understand Satan is to understand he will try to stop the Gospel of Jesus Christ at all costs and will try anything to achieve his goal to stop the holy work. So we can see by this illustration that since The Church is The True Church then The Church would be Satan’s #1 target and goal.

Second there are other LDS scriptures that warn us that, “It is the nature and disposition of almost all men [no exclusion for Mormon men here] as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose [this seems to me this is a direct reference to priesthood holders who do not understand the principles of the priesthood because government leaders do have absolute authority as they suppose], they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion” (D&C 121: 39). So we have a warning right in LDS scripture to watch out for “almost all men” in The Church that have priesthood authority. What percentage would be almost all? 50%. No. 75%. No. I don’t even think 90% would cover the “almost all.”

I am very familiar with the verse you cited. The Lord was explaining why "many are called, but few are chosen." The entire Church leadership is "chosen" by God, which completely destroys your argument. CASE CLOSED