Thomas,
I agree except for one thing and that is The Church has to be a part of Zion because that is where the priesthood keys are vested for now and I believe the Priesthoods of God are still on earth and the controlling keys are with the G.A.s right now.
This gives me hope that if the G.A.s haven't become so corrupted to lose the keys then they can repent and turn around to the Lord again. If not so then Mormon Chapter Nine would have been in vain.
But I do like your post.
I love ya,
Bro. Jim
The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
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Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
-
Thomas
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 4622
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Thanks for the kind words Jim. I believe your heart is the right place.Jim Kelley wrote:Thomas,
I agree except for one thing and that is The Church has to be a part of Zion because that is where the priesthood keys are vested for now and I believe the Priesthoods of God are still on earth and the controlling keys are with the G.A.s right now.
This gives me hope that if the G.A.s haven't become so corrupted to lose the keys then they can repent and turn around to the Lord again. If not so then Mormon Chapter Nine would have been in vain.
But I do like your post.
I love ya,
Bro. Jim
I think Mormon chapter 9 is given to those who do not believe in Christ and is a warning for them to repent. I believe Mormon Chapter 8 is given to all Christian religions and parts of it are for the TCOFJCLDS, specifically and is a warning for them to repent.
I do not think they will repent and they have been warned already. I believe their time to repent has passed.
LDS leaders will never take counsel from lay members. They will only give counsel and expect to be obeyed.
In the end, there is only one person we can change. That person is our self. We either become Zion worthy or not. What others do is out of our control. We can warn and that is good but expecting others to change does nothing for our salvation.
The best way to inspire change in others is by living the true principles of the gospel of Christ. We can set the example. We can help the poor, live as equals and do all the things a Zion people will do.
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Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
The City Creek Center Mall=2 Billion (with a “B”) Dollars=”A Great and Spacious Building.”
Is there anyone who really understands how much 2 billion dollars is which is the same amount The Church poured into four city blocks building the City Creek Center Mall? How in the world The Church could even achieve such a thing is nothing short of amazing.
For comparison, during the approximate same time period of construction, there were two major tornadoes that virtually destroyed two major cities. Let’s see how much it cost to clean up the debris and totally rebuild two major cities that included hundreds of city blocks that represented several shopping centers and a major hospital in each city.
Joplin, Mo. Tornado (do a Google search). The 2011 Joplin tornado was a catastrophic EF5 multiple-vortex tornado that struck Joplin, Missouri, and the path of total destruction was a mile wide and over a dozen miles long covering hundreds of city blocks caused damages amounting to a total of $2.8 billion. Did all the naysayers see that? $2.8 billion to clean up and rebuild hundreds of city blocks including several shopping centers and a major hospital.
Moore, Ok. Tornado. The 2013 Moore tornado was an EF5 tornado that struck Moore, Oklahoma, with peak winds estimated at 210 mph (340 km/h), killing 24 people staying on the ground for 39 minutes over a 17-mile long path that was 1 mile wide. Here again a major tornado that caused total destruction over 17 square miles which included several malls, commercial buildings and a major hospital. Estimated cost to rebuild this total destruction over 17 square miles, 2 Billion Dollars.
So how in the world can The Church pour 2 billion dollars, the same amount to rebuild a major city, into four city blocks? Easy, it just takes graft, corruption, money launderings and a lot of greed on the part of Church leaders.
Those who have eyes let them see the great and spacious building, right next to The SL Temple, The Church G.A.s built “for that which will canker” (Mormon 8:37-38). In my opinion there is no way The Church G.A.s did not get a lot of cash kickbacks on this outrageous project. Who knows for sure how much cash was kicked back but if a G.A. got 100 million dollars, tax free, that would be pretty good pay for a nonpaid clergyman. Go to mormon8-38.com for a more in depth article on this.
Like Thinker has pointed out we should write letters about The Church finances.
There has been talk on this website about how letters will do no good. I know what will do some good if enough of the honest Saints will do it. Withhold your tithing money until tithing settlement in December. That would disrupt The Church’s cash flow and that is something the G.A.s could not ignore.
You would still be a full tithe payer. Make sure you put the tithing money in a savings account and don’t touch it.
The only problem with this is all the Kool-aid drinking Mormons will never be able to figure this out and get on board. The Church, with the help of Satan, has been very effective offering the Kool-aid in distorting Gospel Principles to the point most Mormons are afraid of Church leaders so this will not work but why not try.
Brother Jim
Is there anyone who really understands how much 2 billion dollars is which is the same amount The Church poured into four city blocks building the City Creek Center Mall? How in the world The Church could even achieve such a thing is nothing short of amazing.
For comparison, during the approximate same time period of construction, there were two major tornadoes that virtually destroyed two major cities. Let’s see how much it cost to clean up the debris and totally rebuild two major cities that included hundreds of city blocks that represented several shopping centers and a major hospital in each city.
Joplin, Mo. Tornado (do a Google search). The 2011 Joplin tornado was a catastrophic EF5 multiple-vortex tornado that struck Joplin, Missouri, and the path of total destruction was a mile wide and over a dozen miles long covering hundreds of city blocks caused damages amounting to a total of $2.8 billion. Did all the naysayers see that? $2.8 billion to clean up and rebuild hundreds of city blocks including several shopping centers and a major hospital.
Moore, Ok. Tornado. The 2013 Moore tornado was an EF5 tornado that struck Moore, Oklahoma, with peak winds estimated at 210 mph (340 km/h), killing 24 people staying on the ground for 39 minutes over a 17-mile long path that was 1 mile wide. Here again a major tornado that caused total destruction over 17 square miles which included several malls, commercial buildings and a major hospital. Estimated cost to rebuild this total destruction over 17 square miles, 2 Billion Dollars.
So how in the world can The Church pour 2 billion dollars, the same amount to rebuild a major city, into four city blocks? Easy, it just takes graft, corruption, money launderings and a lot of greed on the part of Church leaders.
Those who have eyes let them see the great and spacious building, right next to The SL Temple, The Church G.A.s built “for that which will canker” (Mormon 8:37-38). In my opinion there is no way The Church G.A.s did not get a lot of cash kickbacks on this outrageous project. Who knows for sure how much cash was kicked back but if a G.A. got 100 million dollars, tax free, that would be pretty good pay for a nonpaid clergyman. Go to mormon8-38.com for a more in depth article on this.
Like Thinker has pointed out we should write letters about The Church finances.
There has been talk on this website about how letters will do no good. I know what will do some good if enough of the honest Saints will do it. Withhold your tithing money until tithing settlement in December. That would disrupt The Church’s cash flow and that is something the G.A.s could not ignore.
You would still be a full tithe payer. Make sure you put the tithing money in a savings account and don’t touch it.
The only problem with this is all the Kool-aid drinking Mormons will never be able to figure this out and get on board. The Church, with the help of Satan, has been very effective offering the Kool-aid in distorting Gospel Principles to the point most Mormons are afraid of Church leaders so this will not work but why not try.
Brother Jim
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Robert Sinclair
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11006
- Location: Redmond Oregon
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Jim,
I see that you are troubled by the corruption of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as written in Mormon chapter 8.
But you should know that he is not the only one who has testified of this fact.
It would be good to search through the entire "One Stick" given unto Ephraim and his invited guests to come to see how is it that this House of Ephraim has gone a whoring away from the law of God given unto them.
And what the Lord has said to weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about the perversion of equity in the vineyard.
Search these things, and get yourself baptized in the living waters of Jesus Christ by feasting upon all his words given unto the children of men, without even a toe sticking out of his words you have not come to memorize and know.
Do even as the Kings of Israel were required to do and write yourself your own personal copy of the law or of all the things Jesus Christ has said to do, and all the ways Jesus Christ has said to be like, and all the things Jesus Christ has said to know. For the parables just write and give what you believe his message is to you.
Start with Matthew Mark Luke John and 3rd Nephi and the D&C. Then the balance of the Old and New Testaments.
And include that which Joseph Smith had testified that would soon be testified of even The Book of Enoch the Prophet.
Once done read this personal book report over and over and over and over again until all his commandments which he has given us are written upon the table of your heart and mind and soul. Listen to his voice by getting audio versions all day and night until they flow into you without ceasing.
Then as the sons of Mosiah remember that this is not all, for as well as having searched the Scriptures diligently to know and have a sound understanding, they had given themselves to much prayer and fasting.
I believe that then your letters and posting will have more power, even as it is written. ♡
♡
I see that you are troubled by the corruption of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as written in Mormon chapter 8.
But you should know that he is not the only one who has testified of this fact.
It would be good to search through the entire "One Stick" given unto Ephraim and his invited guests to come to see how is it that this House of Ephraim has gone a whoring away from the law of God given unto them.
And what the Lord has said to weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion about the perversion of equity in the vineyard.
Search these things, and get yourself baptized in the living waters of Jesus Christ by feasting upon all his words given unto the children of men, without even a toe sticking out of his words you have not come to memorize and know.
Do even as the Kings of Israel were required to do and write yourself your own personal copy of the law or of all the things Jesus Christ has said to do, and all the ways Jesus Christ has said to be like, and all the things Jesus Christ has said to know. For the parables just write and give what you believe his message is to you.
Start with Matthew Mark Luke John and 3rd Nephi and the D&C. Then the balance of the Old and New Testaments.
And include that which Joseph Smith had testified that would soon be testified of even The Book of Enoch the Prophet.
Once done read this personal book report over and over and over and over again until all his commandments which he has given us are written upon the table of your heart and mind and soul. Listen to his voice by getting audio versions all day and night until they flow into you without ceasing.
Then as the sons of Mosiah remember that this is not all, for as well as having searched the Scriptures diligently to know and have a sound understanding, they had given themselves to much prayer and fasting.
I believe that then your letters and posting will have more power, even as it is written. ♡
♡-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
I think my postings and my website is powerful enough as they are if only others will comprehend and understand.
I have done what you have suggested over the past six years as my previous posts have indicated.
The time to act is now.
But thanks for your advice.
I have done what you have suggested over the past six years as my previous posts have indicated.
The time to act is now.
But thanks for your advice.
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
$25,000.00 X 1000 = $25,000,000.00 of graft.
About 10 years ago the Springfield, Mo. Stake Center was due for the “routine scheduled maintenance” of switching out the HVAC air handler. For some reason none of the regular Church subcontractors who do this work wanted to or were able to come to Springfield, Mo. to do this job.
It is strict Church policy this work stays on the ridged schedule so the Springfield, Mo. Church Facilities Manager was told by the SLC FM to get a local HVAC contractor to bid and do the work. In the meantime $50,000.00 was transferred from the central SLC FM account to the local FM account to pay for the job.
The local bid came in at $25,000.00. The local FM notified the SLC FM of the bid.
The SLC FM insisted that job cannot be done for $25,000.00. The job was done, finished and inspected for the original $25,000.00 bid by a legitimate contractor. This contractor wasn’t some guy working out of his basement but had an office, warehouse, company trucks and employees.
After the job was over and passed inspection the local FM tried to give the extra $25,000.00 back to the central SLC FM and they wouldn’t take the money back. The central SLC FM told the Springfield, Mo. FM to keep the extra money and spend it on whatever he wanted to.
Translation and interpretation:
There are Church subcontractors who routinely charge The Church two prices (meaning double the fair price) to do routine maintenance on Church buildings. Obviously this routine overcharging amounts to hundreds of millions of dollars wasted each and every year because of theft through deception. Yes deception as will be demonstrated shortly.
Remember the damage control where the SLC FM transferred $50,000.00 for the job to the local FM even before the bidding? This was to make it look like, when the books are audited each year, the Springfield, Mo. HVAC job, according to the SLC FM books, actually cost $50,000.00 when in reality the cost was $25,000.00. The auditor would have no way of knowing.
If an actual cost of $25,000.00 was in the mix in the SLC FM books where every other identical HVAC job was $50,000.00 (remember there are a lot of Church stake centers that are identical) then that would raise a red flag during an audit. An auditor would expect the same job, done hundreds of times a year, to be within reason at least almost the same price each time. Obviously this 1/2 the regular bid price of an independent contractor would be impossible to explain so the SLC FM didn’t want the $25,000.00 back so their books showed the Springfield, Mo. job cost $50,000.00 just the same as all the other overpriced jobs.
The SLC FM knew exactly what they were doing and this was obvious willful and malicious deceit. The only thing that isn’t obvious is who is getting the extra money? Are the Church “favored contractors” keeping it all or do they have to give some back to Church leaders under the table?
This is an actual case that actually happened and I know about it because the FM at the time bragged to me how he got an extra $25,000.00 that year in his local account to buy some extra things for the area buildings.
Incidentally this was brought up in the Mock Trial and Stake President Thedell, the new local FM at the time (how convent was that), told everyone in the Mock Trial he could explain this but it was too complicated to explain at that time. I insisted right in that Mock Trial that he explain it to me later and President Thedell promised, right in front of everybody, that he would.
During the rush up, hurry up meeting where I got my butt chewed out for writing the letter to President Monson mentioned on this board earlier I demanded President Thedell, the conversation was hot and heavy all through this meeting, explain to me how that $25,000.00 was not important enough to the SLC FM to want it back. I reminded President Thedell he had promised me an explanation in the Mock Trial.
President Thedell, right in front of President Jarvis who was also at the Mock Trial and witnessed this promise, shrugged his shoulders and admitted he could not explain it. I then looked President Thedell right in the eye and declared that I have caught him in another bold face lie. President Thedell didn’t have a thing to say about that and shrugged his shoulders again. Then I looked over at President Jarvis and he was drinking Kool-aid.
Like I have said I have a thousand pages of documentation and information like this which probably makes me, as far as The Church is concerned, the most dangerous man in the world.
Brother Jim
About 10 years ago the Springfield, Mo. Stake Center was due for the “routine scheduled maintenance” of switching out the HVAC air handler. For some reason none of the regular Church subcontractors who do this work wanted to or were able to come to Springfield, Mo. to do this job.
It is strict Church policy this work stays on the ridged schedule so the Springfield, Mo. Church Facilities Manager was told by the SLC FM to get a local HVAC contractor to bid and do the work. In the meantime $50,000.00 was transferred from the central SLC FM account to the local FM account to pay for the job.
The local bid came in at $25,000.00. The local FM notified the SLC FM of the bid.
The SLC FM insisted that job cannot be done for $25,000.00. The job was done, finished and inspected for the original $25,000.00 bid by a legitimate contractor. This contractor wasn’t some guy working out of his basement but had an office, warehouse, company trucks and employees.
After the job was over and passed inspection the local FM tried to give the extra $25,000.00 back to the central SLC FM and they wouldn’t take the money back. The central SLC FM told the Springfield, Mo. FM to keep the extra money and spend it on whatever he wanted to.
Translation and interpretation:
There are Church subcontractors who routinely charge The Church two prices (meaning double the fair price) to do routine maintenance on Church buildings. Obviously this routine overcharging amounts to hundreds of millions of dollars wasted each and every year because of theft through deception. Yes deception as will be demonstrated shortly.
Remember the damage control where the SLC FM transferred $50,000.00 for the job to the local FM even before the bidding? This was to make it look like, when the books are audited each year, the Springfield, Mo. HVAC job, according to the SLC FM books, actually cost $50,000.00 when in reality the cost was $25,000.00. The auditor would have no way of knowing.
If an actual cost of $25,000.00 was in the mix in the SLC FM books where every other identical HVAC job was $50,000.00 (remember there are a lot of Church stake centers that are identical) then that would raise a red flag during an audit. An auditor would expect the same job, done hundreds of times a year, to be within reason at least almost the same price each time. Obviously this 1/2 the regular bid price of an independent contractor would be impossible to explain so the SLC FM didn’t want the $25,000.00 back so their books showed the Springfield, Mo. job cost $50,000.00 just the same as all the other overpriced jobs.
The SLC FM knew exactly what they were doing and this was obvious willful and malicious deceit. The only thing that isn’t obvious is who is getting the extra money? Are the Church “favored contractors” keeping it all or do they have to give some back to Church leaders under the table?
This is an actual case that actually happened and I know about it because the FM at the time bragged to me how he got an extra $25,000.00 that year in his local account to buy some extra things for the area buildings.
Incidentally this was brought up in the Mock Trial and Stake President Thedell, the new local FM at the time (how convent was that), told everyone in the Mock Trial he could explain this but it was too complicated to explain at that time. I insisted right in that Mock Trial that he explain it to me later and President Thedell promised, right in front of everybody, that he would.
During the rush up, hurry up meeting where I got my butt chewed out for writing the letter to President Monson mentioned on this board earlier I demanded President Thedell, the conversation was hot and heavy all through this meeting, explain to me how that $25,000.00 was not important enough to the SLC FM to want it back. I reminded President Thedell he had promised me an explanation in the Mock Trial.
President Thedell, right in front of President Jarvis who was also at the Mock Trial and witnessed this promise, shrugged his shoulders and admitted he could not explain it. I then looked President Thedell right in the eye and declared that I have caught him in another bold face lie. President Thedell didn’t have a thing to say about that and shrugged his shoulders again. Then I looked over at President Jarvis and he was drinking Kool-aid.
Like I have said I have a thousand pages of documentation and information like this which probably makes me, as far as The Church is concerned, the most dangerous man in the world.
Brother Jim
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Robert Sinclair
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11006
- Location: Redmond Oregon
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Wherefore you are left to your own understanding as has been manifested by your posts.
For it is not the words of Jesus Christ that you post over and over again exclusively, but your own personal understanding of what you have come to know.
The Beast of ignorance has yet power over you, if you understand this not you will be overcome by him.
Break his chains.
Come to know.
Become valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ and "all" his words, and not just a sprinkle. ♡ ♡
Sparks of light are what they are, sparks, but the fullness of his celestial law given is like unto the light of the sun.
Pull away from just a sprinkle of sparks, and come forth with the light of the sun, even the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and your valiant testimony of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You will be everlastingly glad you did. ♡ ♡
For it is not the words of Jesus Christ that you post over and over again exclusively, but your own personal understanding of what you have come to know.
The Beast of ignorance has yet power over you, if you understand this not you will be overcome by him.
Break his chains.
Come to know.
Become valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ and "all" his words, and not just a sprinkle. ♡
♡Sparks of light are what they are, sparks, but the fullness of his celestial law given is like unto the light of the sun.
Pull away from just a sprinkle of sparks, and come forth with the light of the sun, even the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and your valiant testimony of the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
You will be everlastingly glad you did. ♡
♡-
Obrien
- Up, up and away.
- Posts: 4951
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Jim - I did go to your website. It looked like lots of words. It seems to me that the main points could be distilled into a much less wordy presentation. I, for one, would appreciate it if you went back and streamlined the whole site. That would take awhile.
You do whatever you think is best - it's a semi free country. I agree 100% with Thomas above - the only person we can lastingly change is our very own self. You can continue to beat the mock trial drum, but you're message is not as loveable as Robert's.
One question I do have for you, and it is a serious question - you stated here and on your website that the stake president called you into a mid-week meeting after your "court of love" and berated you and / or tried to beguile you into saying that YOU brought the letter from "the Church" that was introduced at your court. Then you said something about when "he allowed you to leave" +/- ... My question is this - why did / do you allow these men to have such control over you? You're a free man, accountable to God and your family for your actions. Do you think a group of men (either the court or the SP or T Monson) can deprive you of your connection with Heaven or the Priesthood? I don't get it. Please explain.
You do whatever you think is best - it's a semi free country. I agree 100% with Thomas above - the only person we can lastingly change is our very own self. You can continue to beat the mock trial drum, but you're message is not as loveable as Robert's.
One question I do have for you, and it is a serious question - you stated here and on your website that the stake president called you into a mid-week meeting after your "court of love" and berated you and / or tried to beguile you into saying that YOU brought the letter from "the Church" that was introduced at your court. Then you said something about when "he allowed you to leave" +/- ... My question is this - why did / do you allow these men to have such control over you? You're a free man, accountable to God and your family for your actions. Do you think a group of men (either the court or the SP or T Monson) can deprive you of your connection with Heaven or the Priesthood? I don't get it. Please explain.
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Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Robert Sinclair,
At times you seem to be talking in riddles which makes your message confusing.
At times you seem to be talking in riddles which makes your message confusing.
Last edited by Jim Kelley on February 24th, 2015, 6:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Obrien,
The principle I was following and you may not understand is obedience.
Even though these Church leaders are "hypocrites" since they do have priesthood keys a sane person gives them some respect and is obedient to their reasonable requests.
As for you wanting me to remodel my website, why don't you put up a website of your own exactly like you would want it.
My things are copyrighted however consider this post my permission to use anything on my website you would want to use.
Fair enough?
Love ya,
Brother Jim
The principle I was following and you may not understand is obedience.
Even though these Church leaders are "hypocrites" since they do have priesthood keys a sane person gives them some respect and is obedient to their reasonable requests.
As for you wanting me to remodel my website, why don't you put up a website of your own exactly like you would want it.
My things are copyrighted however consider this post my permission to use anything on my website you would want to use.
Fair enough?
Love ya,
Brother Jim
-
Robert Sinclair
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 11006
- Location: Redmond Oregon
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Jim,
Come to understand what meaneth the words written:
"Ephraim feedeth on wind".
This will help you understand what I have tried to tell you.
It is found in the Book of the prophet Hosea. ♡ ♡
Come to understand what meaneth the words written:
"Ephraim feedeth on wind".
This will help you understand what I have tried to tell you.
It is found in the Book of the prophet Hosea. ♡
♡-
Obrien
- Up, up and away.
- Posts: 4951
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Jim Kelley wrote:Dear Obrien,
The principle I was following and you may not understand is obedience. I understand the principle, at least in its rudiments.
Even though these Church leaders are "hypocrites" since they do have priesthood keys a sane person gives them some respect and is obedient to their reasonable requests. If they use dominion or compulsion to force you to do or say something, they are acting outside the scope of their authority. Amen to their priesthood, at that point. I'm not encouraging rudeness or disrespect, I'm simply suggesting it is not necessary to submit to unrighteous dominion.
As for you wanting me to remodel my website, why don't you put up a website of your own exactly like you would want it. I don't have the time, patience or inclination to do so. It just seems very redundant. I know you're making a point in repeating the phrases "The Stupid Letter With No Name", "First “Stomp On Jesus,” Mock Trial Church Court" etc, but it makes reading your material very cumbersome and frustrating. It makes important things seem trite.
My things are copyrighted however consider this post my permission to use anything on my website you would want to use. Thanks, I'll save this post in case I need it.
Fair enough?
Yep.
Love ya,
Back at 'cha
Brother Jim
Brother Obrien
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear All,
As for anything on my website as long as someone doesn't try to hurt The Church without warrant you can use whatever you see fit.
As for not letting the Church leaders run over me go to mormon8-38.com, Mock Trial Page (button right underneath the picture of Moroni) and on Article #3, read my letter for the second Mock Trial, Brother Jim Kelley’s Response For Church Court, and see for yourself I was not going to be mocked a second time by attending another kangaroo court.
This is what The Holy Ghsot told me to do and He told me what to write.
Actually the butt chewing meeting I reported on this board earlier was good in the fact I caught two Stake Presidents in bold face lies.
Priceless! ;)
As for anything on my website as long as someone doesn't try to hurt The Church without warrant you can use whatever you see fit.
As for not letting the Church leaders run over me go to mormon8-38.com, Mock Trial Page (button right underneath the picture of Moroni) and on Article #3, read my letter for the second Mock Trial, Brother Jim Kelley’s Response For Church Court, and see for yourself I was not going to be mocked a second time by attending another kangaroo court.
This is what The Holy Ghsot told me to do and He told me what to write.
Actually the butt chewing meeting I reported on this board earlier was good in the fact I caught two Stake Presidents in bold face lies.
Priceless! ;)
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Brother Obrien,
I am used to the spelling O'Brien.
But then going back far enough my name used to be O'Kelly.
I don't think there ever was an O'Kelley or at least I never found one.
From what I can gather way in the past the Kellys were Catholic and the Kelleys were the protesters that later became Protestant.
So perhaps protesting is in my blood.
Apparently from what I have gathered, and that is mostly oral history, Kelly was the original spelling and Kelley was a purposeful designation to distinguish the Protestants from the Catholics.
They sure wore their religion on their sleeve or with their name back then.
Some genealogy trivia on a Polluted Holy Church board. Amazing.
I am used to the spelling O'Brien.
But then going back far enough my name used to be O'Kelly.
I don't think there ever was an O'Kelley or at least I never found one.
From what I can gather way in the past the Kellys were Catholic and the Kelleys were the protesters that later became Protestant.
So perhaps protesting is in my blood.
Apparently from what I have gathered, and that is mostly oral history, Kelly was the original spelling and Kelley was a purposeful designation to distinguish the Protestants from the Catholics.
They sure wore their religion on their sleeve or with their name back then.
Some genealogy trivia on a Polluted Holy Church board. Amazing.
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Just a quick note:
This website makes me smile a lot.
Thank you everyone. ;)
This website makes me smile a lot.
Thank you everyone. ;)
-
samizdat
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 3511
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Brother Jim,
Just so you could see that I am not closed minded, I took a gander at your website.
You mention in your interpretation, your commentary of Mormon 8:33-41 that one of the points you mention is the proper English grammar used there. Such grammar is also present in the other translations there, so what you really should say is the proper grammar used from the translated document. Just a suggesstion.
You point to the teachers being the GAs. I respectfully disagree. There is more than one type of teacher, and there are corrupt individuals that DO enter leadership positions in the Church.
I do know that here in Mexico, at least where I am at in Mexico, as recently as 12 years ago, the stake where I am a member was one of the best stakes if not the best stake in the entire area with all of the key indicators. And by Area, I mean, the Mexico Area. The stake grew so fast that in 7 years from its formation from being a district, it was divided and at division it had 15 units. The members described the stake leadership as inspirational, and that wasn't lost on the General Authorities as the stake president was made an Area Seventy and later served in a mission presidency.
But when the stake president was replaced, things went downhill fast. The new stake president started doing things on his whim, appointing his own brothers and sisters to positions within the Church. He appointed his own son as the financial secretary of the stake, which in the Manuals which you cite is a big no-no, and recommended his other son to be bishop, which was approved by the FP and Q12A before they started to recognize what was going on. In other words, nepotism. The church stopped growing.
On the callings, he had "frozen" every person who had had a good relationship with the old SP turned A70 out of any callings in the Church, out of the name of jealousy (because the A70 seeing what he was doing, reported his dealings to the Area who clamped down on him multiple times). He put in a bunch of yes men to replace those who the old SP had called. Even so, he served in the position for eight years, and there was only one ward division in his eight years as SP (the other SP had created nine wards during his seven and a half years in the SP).
We get a new SP who is a member of the same family as the previous two SPs. He's been in now for four years. While not as overt as the last SP, he still is doing many things relating to nepotism. Four of our "wards" are now branches when it comes to attendance. Reason: Many people have left the church over the injustices done by him as well as the previous SP.
Even though, there have been a group of people who have remained humble and who have remained noble, willing to suffer everything, even as the Savior suffered, during these trying times. We have had to endure traitors within our midst trying to get us to exit the Church over something that the SP had done that was common knowledge among all the members of the Church.
It was then when we realized, this isn't the Stake President's Church, this isn't the Bishop's Church, this isn't even Thomas S. Monson's Church. It is the Lord's Church. And the Lord will put people in their places and callings in the Church, to test them and to try them. And those who He puts, that do their job badly, are, sooner or later, removed from their posts, and judged by He whose right it is to judge.
Mormon is attacking those kinds of leaders. He is not attacking the Church as a whole but those that would use the Church to funnel resources in a way that would be unbecoming the mission of Jesus Christ. The boomerang will fall on those who use their positions of power to cause the humble to fall. I don't see evidence that the Apostles have done that, on the contrary, I see Apostles who have gone out into the world, blessing the people right and left.
Just so you could see that I am not closed minded, I took a gander at your website.
You mention in your interpretation, your commentary of Mormon 8:33-41 that one of the points you mention is the proper English grammar used there. Such grammar is also present in the other translations there, so what you really should say is the proper grammar used from the translated document. Just a suggesstion.
You point to the teachers being the GAs. I respectfully disagree. There is more than one type of teacher, and there are corrupt individuals that DO enter leadership positions in the Church.
I do know that here in Mexico, at least where I am at in Mexico, as recently as 12 years ago, the stake where I am a member was one of the best stakes if not the best stake in the entire area with all of the key indicators. And by Area, I mean, the Mexico Area. The stake grew so fast that in 7 years from its formation from being a district, it was divided and at division it had 15 units. The members described the stake leadership as inspirational, and that wasn't lost on the General Authorities as the stake president was made an Area Seventy and later served in a mission presidency.
But when the stake president was replaced, things went downhill fast. The new stake president started doing things on his whim, appointing his own brothers and sisters to positions within the Church. He appointed his own son as the financial secretary of the stake, which in the Manuals which you cite is a big no-no, and recommended his other son to be bishop, which was approved by the FP and Q12A before they started to recognize what was going on. In other words, nepotism. The church stopped growing.
On the callings, he had "frozen" every person who had had a good relationship with the old SP turned A70 out of any callings in the Church, out of the name of jealousy (because the A70 seeing what he was doing, reported his dealings to the Area who clamped down on him multiple times). He put in a bunch of yes men to replace those who the old SP had called. Even so, he served in the position for eight years, and there was only one ward division in his eight years as SP (the other SP had created nine wards during his seven and a half years in the SP).
We get a new SP who is a member of the same family as the previous two SPs. He's been in now for four years. While not as overt as the last SP, he still is doing many things relating to nepotism. Four of our "wards" are now branches when it comes to attendance. Reason: Many people have left the church over the injustices done by him as well as the previous SP.
Even though, there have been a group of people who have remained humble and who have remained noble, willing to suffer everything, even as the Savior suffered, during these trying times. We have had to endure traitors within our midst trying to get us to exit the Church over something that the SP had done that was common knowledge among all the members of the Church.
It was then when we realized, this isn't the Stake President's Church, this isn't the Bishop's Church, this isn't even Thomas S. Monson's Church. It is the Lord's Church. And the Lord will put people in their places and callings in the Church, to test them and to try them. And those who He puts, that do their job badly, are, sooner or later, removed from their posts, and judged by He whose right it is to judge.
Mormon is attacking those kinds of leaders. He is not attacking the Church as a whole but those that would use the Church to funnel resources in a way that would be unbecoming the mission of Jesus Christ. The boomerang will fall on those who use their positions of power to cause the humble to fall. I don't see evidence that the Apostles have done that, on the contrary, I see Apostles who have gone out into the world, blessing the people right and left.
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Samizdat,
First of all I wish to commend you for taking the time to write such a detailed and informative post.
Thank you so very much.
One comment you made was about "proper English grammar" that I was referring to. May I respectfully point out I was referring to Proper English Grammar Rules as they apply to verses in Jesus Christ's Warning, Mormon 8:33-41.
When what is in the verses are analyzed according to Proper English Grammar Rules verses 33-41 stand out as being independent as compared to all the previous verses because of the 1st and 2nd, present tense pronouns that are lacking else where.
This may seem strange but it is as if what is in verses 33-41 were intended to be an embedded message of warning because until the 1st and 2nd, present tense pronouns are realized verses 26-41 would seem, on the surface anyway, to be all connected as one message all inclusive talking about the same group of people. The reality is verses 26-32 are a prophecy describing the conditions of the world and apostate churches leading up to the publication of The Book Of Mormon. Verses 33-41 are directed and intended for the Mormons, after the publication of the BofM, who are obviously members of "the holy church of God."
The phrase, "it shall come in a day when" is used exactly the same way in verses 26-32 indicating an existing set of conditions before 1830 when The BofM would be first published.
Then starting in verse 33, the phrase, "the time cometh at that day" is used and in verse 34, "at that day when these things shall come forth among you." So we see these phrases change at the same time the pronoun usage changes too.
These changes are the key, according to Proper English Grammar Rules, Moroni is talking to two separate and distinct groups. The first are the apostate churches and the second the members of "the holy church of God," as is specifically pointed out in Mormon 8:38 and can only mean Mormons.
I didn't pick up on this until The Holy Ghost showed me and I took the time and effort to study this out for the past six years. Before that when I read the BofM through, as I did from time to time, I did not pick up on these principles because they are embedded.
Why are they embedded I do not know but there are other scriptures that are embedded too.
Scriptures in The Bible referring to baptisms for the dead, the falling away, teaching the gospel in spirit prison, the restitution of the Gospel, the stick of Joseph, etc. are all embedded until they are pointed out and The Holy Ghost teaches you what they mean.
An example of understanding scriptures that seem embedded can be found in The Prophet Joseph Smith's own words. After he and Oliver Cowdery received the Aaronic Priesthood The Prophet states, "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding, and the true meaning and intent of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us..." (JS History 1:74).
You make a reference to my interpretation that "teachers" in verse 38 does not necessarily mean General Authorities.If you were to go to the BofM Index you can discover for yourself every time the word teacher is used in the BofM it is referring to a very high up leader of the church. There is one instance of a very high up leader of an untrue church but none the less in the BofM term teacher is always used to designate a high up leader in a church. There is no reason for Moroni to change tradition about the meaning of teachers in his writings. G.A.s are obviously very high up leaders in The Church today and qualify in the BofM sense to be teachers.
You give in some detail the great successes and then the down fall of your Stake. What you have outlined is a convincing testimony why there needs to be a Central General Church Complaint Department.
You refer to "Mormon" as the Prophet writing these warnings. I am sure this is just a typo on your part and you meant to say Moroni.
Actually Moroni is not attacking anyone but it is Jesus Christ Who told Moroni exactly what to write.
Lastly you state you "don't see evidence that the Apostles have" done things wrong that could qualify as pollutoins. Part of this is what the Apostles do is in secret. Some things have surfaced in the past few years like the City Creek Center Mall which would be an abomination for any church to be involved in using tithing money and this has been explained in detail before in this thread.
Two glaring examples of "pollutions" all the G.A.s are involved in are the secret Church Leadership Manuals and the secrecy of The Church finances. Both could be stopped if the G.A.s wanted them to be stopped. A lower G.A. could at least talk about or publish their concern and protest but then they would probably be released immediately. For G.A.s to go along just to get along with known pollutions is a pollution in itself. I think I set the example that I would rather give up my recommend and even be excommunicate rather than deny Jesus Christ's Warning which is the same as denying Jesus Christ and the BofM.
Again may I commend you for your post to me and thank you from my heart.
My prayer is may we all, according to our own spiritual talents and understandings, strive to make and keep Jesus Christ's Church pure and unpolluted. A-men Brothers and Sisters?
Brother Jim
First of all I wish to commend you for taking the time to write such a detailed and informative post.
Thank you so very much.
One comment you made was about "proper English grammar" that I was referring to. May I respectfully point out I was referring to Proper English Grammar Rules as they apply to verses in Jesus Christ's Warning, Mormon 8:33-41.
When what is in the verses are analyzed according to Proper English Grammar Rules verses 33-41 stand out as being independent as compared to all the previous verses because of the 1st and 2nd, present tense pronouns that are lacking else where.
This may seem strange but it is as if what is in verses 33-41 were intended to be an embedded message of warning because until the 1st and 2nd, present tense pronouns are realized verses 26-41 would seem, on the surface anyway, to be all connected as one message all inclusive talking about the same group of people. The reality is verses 26-32 are a prophecy describing the conditions of the world and apostate churches leading up to the publication of The Book Of Mormon. Verses 33-41 are directed and intended for the Mormons, after the publication of the BofM, who are obviously members of "the holy church of God."
The phrase, "it shall come in a day when" is used exactly the same way in verses 26-32 indicating an existing set of conditions before 1830 when The BofM would be first published.
Then starting in verse 33, the phrase, "the time cometh at that day" is used and in verse 34, "at that day when these things shall come forth among you." So we see these phrases change at the same time the pronoun usage changes too.
These changes are the key, according to Proper English Grammar Rules, Moroni is talking to two separate and distinct groups. The first are the apostate churches and the second the members of "the holy church of God," as is specifically pointed out in Mormon 8:38 and can only mean Mormons.
I didn't pick up on this until The Holy Ghost showed me and I took the time and effort to study this out for the past six years. Before that when I read the BofM through, as I did from time to time, I did not pick up on these principles because they are embedded.
Why are they embedded I do not know but there are other scriptures that are embedded too.
Scriptures in The Bible referring to baptisms for the dead, the falling away, teaching the gospel in spirit prison, the restitution of the Gospel, the stick of Joseph, etc. are all embedded until they are pointed out and The Holy Ghost teaches you what they mean.
An example of understanding scriptures that seem embedded can be found in The Prophet Joseph Smith's own words. After he and Oliver Cowdery received the Aaronic Priesthood The Prophet states, "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understanding, and the true meaning and intent of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us..." (JS History 1:74).
You make a reference to my interpretation that "teachers" in verse 38 does not necessarily mean General Authorities.If you were to go to the BofM Index you can discover for yourself every time the word teacher is used in the BofM it is referring to a very high up leader of the church. There is one instance of a very high up leader of an untrue church but none the less in the BofM term teacher is always used to designate a high up leader in a church. There is no reason for Moroni to change tradition about the meaning of teachers in his writings. G.A.s are obviously very high up leaders in The Church today and qualify in the BofM sense to be teachers.
You give in some detail the great successes and then the down fall of your Stake. What you have outlined is a convincing testimony why there needs to be a Central General Church Complaint Department.
You refer to "Mormon" as the Prophet writing these warnings. I am sure this is just a typo on your part and you meant to say Moroni.
Actually Moroni is not attacking anyone but it is Jesus Christ Who told Moroni exactly what to write.
Lastly you state you "don't see evidence that the Apostles have" done things wrong that could qualify as pollutoins. Part of this is what the Apostles do is in secret. Some things have surfaced in the past few years like the City Creek Center Mall which would be an abomination for any church to be involved in using tithing money and this has been explained in detail before in this thread.
Two glaring examples of "pollutions" all the G.A.s are involved in are the secret Church Leadership Manuals and the secrecy of The Church finances. Both could be stopped if the G.A.s wanted them to be stopped. A lower G.A. could at least talk about or publish their concern and protest but then they would probably be released immediately. For G.A.s to go along just to get along with known pollutions is a pollution in itself. I think I set the example that I would rather give up my recommend and even be excommunicate rather than deny Jesus Christ's Warning which is the same as denying Jesus Christ and the BofM.
Again may I commend you for your post to me and thank you from my heart.
My prayer is may we all, according to our own spiritual talents and understandings, strive to make and keep Jesus Christ's Church pure and unpolluted. A-men Brothers and Sisters?
Brother Jim
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
- Contact:
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Laws help us function and stay out of trouble. Three categories of laws I wish to address here are (1) laws of the land, (2) physical laws and (3) spiritual laws. These laws are listed 1-3 in importance for this illustration.
One example of a law of the land is a stop sign may be placed where a secondary road enters a highway. The stop sign reminds us to stop and look both ways because if we don’t and pull in front of an oncoming car then the higher law (physical laws), which is “two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time,” will hurt us.
In Jesus Christ’s Warning, Mormon 8:33-41, there is an embedded “stop sign” right at the beginning in verse 33. That stop sign reads, “Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?” This is incredible Jesus Christ placed this stop sign (yield sign, caution sign or whatever) right at the beginning of His Warning to us.
The scriptures are plain that a Christian needs to drink milk first before being able to digest the meat of the scriptures. I think it is obvious Jesus wants us to drink the milk in His Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) before we worry or try to understand and may possibly “transfigure” the meat of His Warning. But what is the milk here?
May I suggest two items of milk that should be easily understood?
The first is in verse 35 where Moroni states, “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye are present, and yet ye are not.” The milk here is Moroni is talking directly to the reader of the BofM. Obviously if you are reading Mormon 8:33-41 Moroni is speaking directly to you. So drink the milk of this understanding first.
The second is in verse 38 where Moroni identifies that there is “the holy church of God” in His Warning. If the reader can understand the milk that this church is a holy church in the sight of God in the latter-days, because in the latter-days was when the BofM was to be read, then they can understand this can only be The True Church today.
May I promise anyone who honestly and prayerfully drinks of this milk The Holy Ghost will prepare them for the meat of the other parts of Jesus Christ’s Warning? Don’t even think about or worry about anything else in these scriptures until The Holy Ghost directs you to think about them.
The meat of this is not going to come to everyone at the same pace, the exact same way and at the same time. The Holy Ghost knows you even better than you know yourself and He will guide and direct your thoughts and study so you can digest the meat of this matter in due time if you will follow His promptings (Moroni 10:3-5).
Remember, what The Holy Ghost teaches you supersedes anything the arm of flesh may teach but He will never contradict established scripture.
May I suggest those interested drink the two portions of milk I have outlined and follow the promptings of The Holy Ghost and report back on this thread? Is that fair enough?
May I thank Brother Obrien for his suggestion today that I go “back and streamline the whole [web]site .”
While pondering his suggestion I decided to streamline my presentation on this thread and that is what you see in this post. Thank you Brother Obrien for your timely suggestion today.
Brother Jim
One example of a law of the land is a stop sign may be placed where a secondary road enters a highway. The stop sign reminds us to stop and look both ways because if we don’t and pull in front of an oncoming car then the higher law (physical laws), which is “two objects cannot occupy the same space at the same time,” will hurt us.
In Jesus Christ’s Warning, Mormon 8:33-41, there is an embedded “stop sign” right at the beginning in verse 33. That stop sign reads, “Why have ye transfigured the holy word of God?” This is incredible Jesus Christ placed this stop sign (yield sign, caution sign or whatever) right at the beginning of His Warning to us.
The scriptures are plain that a Christian needs to drink milk first before being able to digest the meat of the scriptures. I think it is obvious Jesus wants us to drink the milk in His Warning (Mormon 8:33-41) before we worry or try to understand and may possibly “transfigure” the meat of His Warning. But what is the milk here?
May I suggest two items of milk that should be easily understood?
The first is in verse 35 where Moroni states, “Behold, I speak unto you as if ye are present, and yet ye are not.” The milk here is Moroni is talking directly to the reader of the BofM. Obviously if you are reading Mormon 8:33-41 Moroni is speaking directly to you. So drink the milk of this understanding first.
The second is in verse 38 where Moroni identifies that there is “the holy church of God” in His Warning. If the reader can understand the milk that this church is a holy church in the sight of God in the latter-days, because in the latter-days was when the BofM was to be read, then they can understand this can only be The True Church today.
May I promise anyone who honestly and prayerfully drinks of this milk The Holy Ghost will prepare them for the meat of the other parts of Jesus Christ’s Warning? Don’t even think about or worry about anything else in these scriptures until The Holy Ghost directs you to think about them.
The meat of this is not going to come to everyone at the same pace, the exact same way and at the same time. The Holy Ghost knows you even better than you know yourself and He will guide and direct your thoughts and study so you can digest the meat of this matter in due time if you will follow His promptings (Moroni 10:3-5).
Remember, what The Holy Ghost teaches you supersedes anything the arm of flesh may teach but He will never contradict established scripture.
May I suggest those interested drink the two portions of milk I have outlined and follow the promptings of The Holy Ghost and report back on this thread? Is that fair enough?
May I thank Brother Obrien for his suggestion today that I go “back and streamline the whole [web]site .”
While pondering his suggestion I decided to streamline my presentation on this thread and that is what you see in this post. Thank you Brother Obrien for your timely suggestion today.
Brother Jim
-
Epistemology
- captain of 100
- Posts: 701
Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
There was a rabbi, a very good and pious man, who wanted to see justice in the world.
The rabbi fasted and prayed to God that he might be permitted to gaze on the prophet Elijah who had ascended into heaven. God granted his prayer, and Elijah appeared before him.
“Let me journey with you in your travels through the world,” the Rabbi entreated Elijah; “let me observe your doings so that I may gain in wisdom and understanding.”
“No,” answered Elijah; “you would not understand my actions; my doings would trouble you. They are beyond your comprehension.”
But still the Rabbi implored: “I will neither trouble nor question you; only let me accompany you on your way.”
“Come, then,” said Elijah; “but let your tongue be mute. With your first question, your first expression of astonishment, we must part company.”
And so it came to pass. They left the next morning, and in the evening they came to a very poor hovel, hardly worthy of human occupation. They knocked and found that a poor farmer and his wife lived there together with a cow, their only possession, which provided their meager livelihood: they sold milk in the next village, and drank what was left. It kept them from starving.
The farmer couple was poor but very friendly, and ushered the two “beggars” in. They let them sleep on their best straw (they had no beds), and they shared a slice of hard bread and a cracked bowl of milk from their cow with them. They entertained the guests with friendly conversation, till they all said the nighttime prayers and went to sleep.
In middle of the night the rabbi noticed that Elijah had slipped away to the stable. He wondered what the prophet might be doing there, but remembering his promise, he said nothing.
The next morning they woke up to a terrible scream. The farmer’s wife had gone to milk the cow, had found the animal stretched out on the floor, stiff and dead. “How will we live?” she wailed. “Now we will die, too!” The rabbi expressed his concern, and tried to console her. He told her to trust in God, but they had to leave her sobbing
.
“No questions, remember!” whispered Elijah. He blessed the poor couple, and they walked again for a whole day.
That evening they came into a village, and heard happy music. They found a nice house made of brick: servants were bustling about, and they were told that the wealthy owner of this nice house was preparing a party for the engagement of his daughter. “It’s better not to disturb him now,” warned a butler. “He doesn’t like beggars in normal circumstances, and he will be very irritated if you talk to him before his feast. Better go somewhere else!”
“No,” said Elijah, “we want to share in his joyous occasion, and we will ask for lodging and food from him.”
“At your own risk. Don’t say I didn’t warn you!” said the butler. The owner of the house treated the beggars harshly, and threatened to have them removed by his servants. But they pleaded so desperately that finally he gave in and let them sleep in his barn, just to get rid of them. He warned them not to show themselves at the party; he would certainly not give them any food.
And so, the rabbi and Elijah went to sleep with an empty stomach, and it was drafty and chilly in the stable.
The next morning they woke up and Elijah pointed to a large opening in the wall of the crumbling barn. “That’s why it was so cold in here!” he exclaimed, and told the rabbi that they would repair that crack with some old tools that were in the barn.
As they headed back to the rabbi’s village, Elijah said to him, “Í know that you did not find it fair that the cow of the good couple died, and that the wall of the miser was fixed for free. But in God’s world, there is more to things than what meets the eye . . .”
“When we were sleeping in the poor couple’s hut, I heard the rustling of big wings from outside. It was the angel of death, who had come to take the life of the farmer’s wife. I pleaded with him to leave this couple alone. Finally I was able to convince him to take the cow. And I gave a blessing to the couple when we left. They did not know it, but at that very moment a new cow, wandering and lost, was making its way to their hut. They will find it and take care of it. And not only that: God will bless them this year with a child, which is their deepest wish.”
“I see,” said the rabbi. “And what about the miser?”
“Ah, him,” sighed Elijah. “Well, in the wall of his barn someone had hidden a chest with gold coins. That person died before he could tell anybody, and the gold stayed in the wall. Now, if the miser would repair that wall by himself—he would do it himself, because he is too stingy to hire a man to fix his barn—he would find the chest. This man will soon be poor and humbled. If he were to find this gold it would lead to his destruction.
"Do you have any more questions?”
“No,” said the rabbi. “Now I understand that this world is not what it seems to be to us, and we can only trust God to do justice in His world. Thank you for taking me on your trip . . .”
The rabbi fasted and prayed to God that he might be permitted to gaze on the prophet Elijah who had ascended into heaven. God granted his prayer, and Elijah appeared before him.
“Let me journey with you in your travels through the world,” the Rabbi entreated Elijah; “let me observe your doings so that I may gain in wisdom and understanding.”
“No,” answered Elijah; “you would not understand my actions; my doings would trouble you. They are beyond your comprehension.”
But still the Rabbi implored: “I will neither trouble nor question you; only let me accompany you on your way.”
“Come, then,” said Elijah; “but let your tongue be mute. With your first question, your first expression of astonishment, we must part company.”
And so it came to pass. They left the next morning, and in the evening they came to a very poor hovel, hardly worthy of human occupation. They knocked and found that a poor farmer and his wife lived there together with a cow, their only possession, which provided their meager livelihood: they sold milk in the next village, and drank what was left. It kept them from starving.
The farmer couple was poor but very friendly, and ushered the two “beggars” in. They let them sleep on their best straw (they had no beds), and they shared a slice of hard bread and a cracked bowl of milk from their cow with them. They entertained the guests with friendly conversation, till they all said the nighttime prayers and went to sleep.
In middle of the night the rabbi noticed that Elijah had slipped away to the stable. He wondered what the prophet might be doing there, but remembering his promise, he said nothing.
The next morning they woke up to a terrible scream. The farmer’s wife had gone to milk the cow, had found the animal stretched out on the floor, stiff and dead. “How will we live?” she wailed. “Now we will die, too!” The rabbi expressed his concern, and tried to console her. He told her to trust in God, but they had to leave her sobbing
.
“No questions, remember!” whispered Elijah. He blessed the poor couple, and they walked again for a whole day.
That evening they came into a village, and heard happy music. They found a nice house made of brick: servants were bustling about, and they were told that the wealthy owner of this nice house was preparing a party for the engagement of his daughter. “It’s better not to disturb him now,” warned a butler. “He doesn’t like beggars in normal circumstances, and he will be very irritated if you talk to him before his feast. Better go somewhere else!”
“No,” said Elijah, “we want to share in his joyous occasion, and we will ask for lodging and food from him.”
“At your own risk. Don’t say I didn’t warn you!” said the butler. The owner of the house treated the beggars harshly, and threatened to have them removed by his servants. But they pleaded so desperately that finally he gave in and let them sleep in his barn, just to get rid of them. He warned them not to show themselves at the party; he would certainly not give them any food.
And so, the rabbi and Elijah went to sleep with an empty stomach, and it was drafty and chilly in the stable.
The next morning they woke up and Elijah pointed to a large opening in the wall of the crumbling barn. “That’s why it was so cold in here!” he exclaimed, and told the rabbi that they would repair that crack with some old tools that were in the barn.
As they headed back to the rabbi’s village, Elijah said to him, “Í know that you did not find it fair that the cow of the good couple died, and that the wall of the miser was fixed for free. But in God’s world, there is more to things than what meets the eye . . .”
“When we were sleeping in the poor couple’s hut, I heard the rustling of big wings from outside. It was the angel of death, who had come to take the life of the farmer’s wife. I pleaded with him to leave this couple alone. Finally I was able to convince him to take the cow. And I gave a blessing to the couple when we left. They did not know it, but at that very moment a new cow, wandering and lost, was making its way to their hut. They will find it and take care of it. And not only that: God will bless them this year with a child, which is their deepest wish.”
“I see,” said the rabbi. “And what about the miser?”
“Ah, him,” sighed Elijah. “Well, in the wall of his barn someone had hidden a chest with gold coins. That person died before he could tell anybody, and the gold stayed in the wall. Now, if the miser would repair that wall by himself—he would do it himself, because he is too stingy to hire a man to fix his barn—he would find the chest. This man will soon be poor and humbled. If he were to find this gold it would lead to his destruction.
"Do you have any more questions?”
“No,” said the rabbi. “Now I understand that this world is not what it seems to be to us, and we can only trust God to do justice in His world. Thank you for taking me on your trip . . .”
-
Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
For me the story of the Rabbi and Elijah is hard to understand especially the conclusion. Who did or did not get the gold and why? And what are the meanings of the words “mank” and “ind?”
Even if this is a typo, and the words intended are man and kind, that is still an illusive illustration and point for me anyway.
Even if this is a typo, and the words intended are man and kind, that is still an illusive illustration and point for me anyway.
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Jim Kelley
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
I just noticed Brother Obrien's notation on his side board, 2 + 2 = 5.
That is pretty good and makes a good point.
That is pretty good and makes a good point.
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brrgilbert
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
In all your wisdom, Rabbi, get understanding. God does that which is best for mank ind.
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Epistemology
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
lol that's too funnyJim Kelley wrote:For me the story of the Rabbi and Elijah is hard to understand especially the conclusion. Who did or did not get the gold and why? And what are the meanings of the words “mank” and “ind?”
Even if this is a typo, and the words intended are man and kind, that is still an illusive illustration and point for me anyway.
the last thing about mankind is the signature tagline that appears on all my posts lol has nothing to do with the story
I do not doubt that you don't understand the parable...
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Jim Kelley
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Epistemology,
Can you tell me in plain English who did or did not get the gold and why? It is not clear in the story.
And was the “mank” and “ind” on purpose?
Perhaps we can talk sometime and you can be my teacher?
Sincerely,
Brother Jim
Can you tell me in plain English who did or did not get the gold and why? It is not clear in the story.
And was the “mank” and “ind” on purpose?
Perhaps we can talk sometime and you can be my teacher?
Sincerely,
Brother Jim
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Jim Kelley
- captain of 100
- Posts: 361
- Location: Missouri
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Re: The Polluted Holy Church Mormon Chapter 8
Dear Epistemology,
Going over the story again,
The rich man-miser later became poor and humble but if he would have discovered the gold then he would become proud again and be damned in his eternal life.
Did I do good teacher?
Bro. Jim
Going over the story again,
The rich man-miser later became poor and humble but if he would have discovered the gold then he would become proud again and be damned in his eternal life.
Did I do good teacher?
Bro. Jim
