LDS Freedom Forum

AGStacker wrote:samizdat, I haven't paid tithing to the Church since 2012. (the same time I became the finance clerk) Have I polluted the Church?

My bishop has to know it too. I went into MLS and he put my tithing declaration as non-tithe which he should have but why hasn't he said anything to me yet? His 5 years will be up this summer I think. He must think I am a lying bastard or perhaps he thinks I pay to the Corp. Idk? The handbook states that no one should handle tithing funds who is not a full-tithe payer. Would I ever steal tithes? Never.

I want to interview a thousand people and ask them to read the law of tithing out of the Doctrine and Covenants and I want to see what their responses would be when I ask them what does it mean. I am sure that it wont sound anything like our current law of tithing.

Do I believe in the law? Yes. Do I believe in paying it to the Church who will use it for a high powered law firm, mall, and or movie? No!

AGStacker wrote:

AGStacker wrote:samizdat, I haven't paid tithing to the Church since 2012. (the same time I became the finance clerk) Have I polluted the Church?

My bishop has to know it too. I went into MLS and he put my tithing declaration as non-tithe which he should have but why hasn't he said anything to me yet? His 5 years will be up this summer I think. He must think I am a lying cupcake or perhaps he thinks I pay to the Corp. Idk? The handbook states that no one should handle tithing funds who is not a full-tithe payer. Would I ever steal tithes? Never.

I want to interview a thousand people and ask them to read the law of tithing out of the Doctrine and Covenants and I want to see what their responses would be when I ask them what does it mean. I am sure that it wont sound anything like our current law of tithing.

Do I believe in the law? Yes. Do I believe in paying it to the Church who will use it for a high powered law firm, mall, and or movie? No!

IF the bishop kept you there despite not paying your tithing, that is between the bishop and God eventually. Also to a certain degree the Stake President given that he also has access to MLS.

If you haven't paid tithing and said that you did in order to enter the temple. then you are also sinning against God.

And how do you know that the Church uses tithing to pay for malls, law firms, or movies? The authorities have come out and stated that that is indeed NOT the case.

In Mexico, the Church released its patrimony (details of assets and finances that it has in the country). JUST IN MEXICO, the Church has a fortune near 2 billion dollars. But you have to consider that there are 13 temples in the country and 2,000 plus wards and branches. There are also 34 missions, 230 stakes, and around 40 districts, plus a little bit of real estate.

It is up to this point the ONLY Church that has released its patrimony in the country.

It is quite speculative and quite bad to say the Church invests in this or that, when all the facts are not in front of you, or even worse, those that take care of said funds, say that the funds AREN'T used to support the things you allege the Church to support. Though I like speculation, I would be cautious to say that one thing is true or isn't true when all the facts aren't in front of you.

Back in JS day the "Church" Christ was referring to was His Church. The earthly Church was pronounced to be under Condemnation. Did Christ EVER proclaim His Church to be under Condemnation? What udder foolishness. Wake up people, time is short. If someone ever becomes a member of Christs Church, he will simply cease to be a member, if his sin is great enough. They will simply fall. No excommunication.

The Heads of Jacob and princes of the house of Israel and Ephraim are who they are, spoken of by the "One Stick" given unto Ephraim and his invited guests.

And the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds spoken of by Enoch are who they are.

Notwithstanding all the words written on this or any other forums those Scriptures written remain.

Ephraim shall come to say,

"What have I to do anymore with idols?"

And finally return to keep the commandments of God given to his beloved son Jesus Christ to give to us and bring forth fruits equal and delightful unto the Lord of the vineyard, I just hope and pray it is in my days upon this earth and sooner rather than later. ♡ ♡

That they join with Judah both forsaking idols and detestable things and their sins, and manifest faith in the Scriptures written of the words of God, together as one nation under God, with liberty and justice, and righteousness and goodness, and purity of heart, with inheritances for all, in these lands of promise, as was promised unto the fathers of old, even of Zion.

Yes that Hosea 14:8 finally gets fullfilled as well as Ezekiel 37:15-23.

Both these I hope to be able to see happen in my lifetime if we all weep and howl and sound the alarm and blow the trumpet in Zion that the old men and administers of the law of God in both Houses of Ephraim and Judah finally awaken to the full meaning of Tzedakah and the fullness of the gospel of God given to us through the Scriptures, and especially through this prophet all must hearken unto or be destroyed, even Jesus Christ. ♡ ♡

It's Ephraim's turn, both the House of Judah with Peter and his fellow apostles, had all things common among them, and the House of Manasseh, with the Nephites and Lamanites of 4th Nephi, chapter one in the first 24 verses, until the 201st year had passed away, so now, stay no longer in the place of the breaking forth of children, any longer, and be in pain O leaders of the House of Ephraim, and bring forth to the birth, the daughter of Zion, and bring his bride out of the closet clothed with equity and justice and goodness and purity of heart, humbled to the dust with broken hearts and contrite spirits for going far away from being equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly.

Give stewardships of inheritances of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken into the hands of the poor Saints among you, as God has commanded. ♡ ♡

Do these things and be glad and rejoice for the Lord will do great things then, coming forth saying "Here I am" as has been written and foretold and promised. ♡ ♡

Elder Oaks recently stated that tithes are put in a rainy-day fund where they earn interest, which is what is used for the malls, law buildings, etc. I believe that interest earned on tithes is still the Lord's money, so they had better be very sure that He wants it spent on buildings rather than on feeding malnourished LDS families.

sorry

Bro Jones wrote;
But Jesus invites our repentance, not our withdrawal from his restored church

Said Jesus,
"unto you, the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time..." DC 112

OTOH, Snuffer claims that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014. I have made this a matter of prayer, and testify that the priesthood remains with "the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed... to be your counselors and your leaders"

I trust Jesus, not Snuffer, in this matter.

Who is preaching christ's gospel? DS or The Brethren? I hear the teachings of Christ and JS when I listen to DS. I hear men speaking of themselves, when I listen to the earthly Church leaders. I hear "Christ has ask me to tell you this" when I listen to DS. I hear men speaking their own thoughts when I listen to earthly Church leaders. Again JS taught correct principles and let you govern yourself.

From the very beginning of Tithes and Offerings consecrated of the children of Israel starting with Exodus chapter 22-23 the poor and needy and even the stranger among them was to be cared for first and foremost before in chapter 25 of Exodus offerings for the Tabernacle was asked.

Even unto the last of the revelations of God of the law to the church were the poor and needy Saints among us to be cared for with stewardships of inheritances of covenants and deeds sufficient for the support of their families from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings before one penny of residue is used for purchasing lands and to build buildings for worshipping God or the public benefit of the Saints.

No one who has looked deeply into the Scriptures to see the will of God can deny these things before the judgment bar of Christ.

Let not the Beast of ignorance spoken of in the book of Revelation overcome you as power was given to him to do, to the Saints, taking captive all those without the knowledge of God.

Read and see and hear and come to know all of his words given by submersion into these living waters of life without even a toe sticking out of his words you do not know.

Be equal in your temporal things, and this not grudgingly, by imparting, of covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, into the hands of the poor Saints, sufficient for the support of their families, from the consecrated Tithes and Offerings without any grudgingly behavior.

Rob God no longer.

Impart as the Gospel requires.

Before the doors are shut.

The season ended.

The wedding invitation given passed.

No oil in your lamps.

Not equal in your temporal things and this not grudgingly.

And death falls upon you too late, your probation ended.

Only acknowledge O Ephraim your offence against God and return to keep his commandments which he has given you.

You will be everlastingly glad you did. ♡ ♡

Steve said;
I was referring, then, to those who with Snuffer claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014;

Did not Christ proclaim the exact same thing????????

Joseph Smith Junior son of Joseph Smith Senior was foretold thousands of years ago by Joseph of Egypt of Jacob to be a seer raised up for the purpose of bringing the knowledge of the fathers made manifest.

For he truly truly testified of such in 2 Nephi chapter 3.

The Twelve and Seventy Shepherds have been testified of by Enoch as well.

The truth is what it is. ♡ ♡

Joseph Smith Junior of Ephraim was to fullfill the words of Hosea of being given the greater things of his law but to go and build temples anyways before amending his ways and his doings.

Such has been the conduct of Ephraim being as a silly dove without heart, and an unwise son, feeding on wind and staying long in the place of the breaking forth of children.

Ephraim of the latter days must come to finally say,

"What have I to do anymore with idols?"

To fullfill the Scriptures written.

I hope so soon. ♡ ♡

deep water wrote:

Steve said;
I was referring, then, to those who with Snuffer claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014;

Did not Christ proclaim the exact same thing????????

Wow! Certainly not, that I know of = please provide the reference for where " Christ proclaim[ed] the exact same thing", that is, that "the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014" as Snuffer says.

Mormon 8 speaks for itself. DS is not some original interpreter of that text.

Never read Snuffer.

Denver is one who sells books and many other items forbidden of those who would teach the words of Jesus Christ without cost. As do many of the Twelve and Seventy Shepherds.

The words of Jesus Christ are to be taught for free without cost or money.

Beware of any who seek for money selling the doctrines and words of Jesus Christ as the spirit of God has manifested in the Scriptures written.

This is councel from an older brother who cares. ♡ ♡

Lizzy60 wrote:Elder Oaks recently stated that tithes are put in a rainy-day fund where they earn interest, which is what is used for the malls, law buildings, etc. I believe that interest earned on tithes is still the Lord's money, so they had better be very sure that He wants it spent on buildings rather than on feeding malnourished LDS families.

D&C 119 tells us exactly what tithing funds are to be used for.

2 For the building of mine house (houses), and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.


That's it.

Would using the funds for means other than these be a violation of the commandment?

BroJones wrote:

deep water wrote:

Steve said;
I was referring, then, to those who with Snuffer claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014;

Did not Christ proclaim the exact same thing????????

Wow! Certainly not, that I know of = please provide the reference for where " Christ proclaim[ed] the exact same thing", that is, that "the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014" as Snuffer says.

One thing I need to add, I observe that you guys have CHARITY, the love of Christ, and I deeply respect that!

Ah, my dear brother, you must understand the spirit, for inasmuch as ye have built and given unto the least of these a house for a safe place of sanctuary, you have given it unto him.

Be believing and be pure in heart able to see the truth of all things given of God unto his children.

For once all have safe places of sanctuary, for their families, and at least this in common, you will have laid the foundation of Zion as he has commanded. ♡ ♡

This is the first and foremost debt to God of the First Presidency, as to prove him now herewith that there is more than enough and to spare. ♡ ♡

May I add some of my insight about tithing money.

The Church has tried to excuse the spending of Church money on items the members would object to spending tithing money on by claiming this money was not paid directly by members as tithing. In other words the General Authorities have explained interest or profits on investments of tithing money is not tithing money and can be spent any way the General Authorities want.

This is a genealogy problem. Can a man be begotten by a horse or a bird? No! Humans beget more humans and horses beget more horses and birds beget more birds.

So it is with tithing money. Tithing money begets more tithing money. This tithing money can be layered, first generation, second generation, third generation and so on, but it is all tithing money because it all started with tithing money no matter what layer or generation it is.

So for The Church to build the City Creek Center Mall (or anything else commercial for profit) with a Church owned corporation, that was originally financed with tithing money, is in reality building that Mall with tithing money.

Some may say the actual money to build the Mall was borrowed money. It doesn’t make any difference because the financing was guaranteed by the Church owned corporation which was originally financed with Church tithing money. If it were not for the Church owned corporation there would have been no financing. If it were not for the good faith and credit of the Church owned corporation, backed by The Church, there would have been no chance to get the financing.


Actually since the Church owned corporation is owned by The Church in the event the Mall fails and the debt cannot be paid in full then the Church owned corporation is liquidated in bankruptcy court to pay the entire debt, in this case about two Billion dollars (with a “B”). If there is not enough assets in the Church owned corporation to satisfy the bankruptcy court then “the corporate veil is pierced” and the direct assets of The Church are on the line to pay off the debt.

As one can plainly see the General Authorities are playing word games with tithing money and in reality taking tremendous risks with Church assets including the Church Treasury which is full of tithing money.

If the General Authorities wanted to play entrepreneur they should pool their own money and start their own corporation to play with. To do this with the Lord’s tithing money is a “pollution” that can come back and bite The Church in the Treasury as well as proving themselves “hypocrites.”

O that the House of Ephraim would finally come to say,

"What have I to do anymore with idols?"

And finally fullfill the Scriptures written of Hosea 14:8.

And bring forth fruits equal and delightful unto the Lord of the vineyard most pleasing unto God.

This can and shall be accomplished, so let us continue to weep and howl, and sound the alarm, and blow the trumpet in Zion, about the perversion of equity, and the robbery of God, of the Tithes and Offerings consecrated, being withheld from giving of the stewardships, of inheritances of covenants and deeds, that cannot be broken, into the hands of the poor Saints, sufficient for the support of their families, for the solid foundation of Zion, equal in our temporal things, of all of us having covenants and deeds that cannot be broken, sufficient for our wants and needs, keeping watch to see that no member goes without, or suffer in want.

No more members sleeping in their cars with their adult handicapped sons to be torn apart from each other because of these things happening in the shadows of Salt Lake City, empty million dollar condos owned by the church.

Awaken all the old men and administers of the law of God and the Tithes and Offerings Storehouse Treasury of the Lord to hear the cries of the poor and needy Saints among us. Let us dilligently search through the branches and wards and stakes to find every single member who is oppressed and burdened and yoked with oppressively abject poverty and wickedness and undo these heavy burdens and oppression and break the yokes from off their backs.

And let Zion rejoice, being finally redeemed and the wedding invitation given answered, of the feast of fat things required, delivered to the poor.

The bride brought out the closet clothed with equity and justice and righteousness and goodness and purity of heart delightful unto the bridegroom.

Where the bridegroom may then finally come forth, as promised, in the book of Isaiah the prophet saying, "Here I am" and bless us all. ♡ ♡

May I express some of my personal experiences and observations with the time it takes to know the correct interpretation of a scripture.

When I investigated The Church in 1976-1977 the missionaries showed me some scriptures in The Holy Bible and gave me the interpretations.

One scripture was 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which states, “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first.”

Without some instruction this scripture means nothing except for the causing of some questions. What man? By what means? What day? What falling away?

Maybe only adult converts have experienced what I did with this verse and the questions it presented to me at first. It took several weeks working with the missionaries and their inspired instructions before it dawned on me, no doubt by the power of The Holy Ghost, that this was a prophecy The Church Jesus personally organized in the Meridian of Time was going to fall into apostasy and necessitate a Restoration. I did not get it at first and it took a lot of help from the missionaries, my personal desire to know and prayers before I got it but when I got it I really got it and I have never lost it.

There are lots of other scriptures I have had to learn their true meaning in this exact same way. This is really common with people or at least my experiences and observations are this is common.

On April 8th, 2009, when The Holy Ghost showed me “the holy church of God” (Mormon 8:38) and caused my understanding to instantly know this was a direct reference to The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints I still didn’t quite get it for about two months. I had to study this out, compare other scriptures, pray about it and compare the evidences of what The Church had become and then I got it.

I have only been on this website for a week so all of you have not had near enough time, in my opinion, to really get this yet. As you ponder, read, compare and pray I promise you The Holy Ghost will cause you to come to and know the right conclusion with what I have learned to call Jesus Christ’s Warning (Mormon 8:33-41 and Chapter Nine).

This Warning and how The Church has ended up becoming is an incredible negative-positive proof (lawyer talk) The Book Of Mormon and The Church are True! How in the world could anyone in 1830 have predicted, with such accuracy, how The Church would be led by “hypocrites” into “pollutions” on such a grand scale? The description is word prefect and that is understandable because they are literally the Words of Christ (Moroni 10:27).

May I be perfectly clear if some may have misunderstood before. I know “The Book Of Mormon is true and The Church is true” because on January 30, 1977, at 2:30 P.M. and angel from God came to me and told me. By direct extension and by the power of The Holy Ghost I know Joseph Smith was, is and will always be a Prophet of God.

I have reason to believe that angel was Moroni, the same angel that delivered the Gold Plates to The Prophet Joseph Smith and penned Jesus Christ’s Warning.

I also believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is still The True Church because there is nowhere else The Holy Priesthoods can be found and I don’t think God will allow His Priesthoods to be taken from the earth quite yet. D&C 13 is the only scriptural promise I know of that specifically promises The Aaronic Priesthood will not be taken from the earth until the Great Council is held at Adam-ondi-Ahman.

This may not be the great promise some may want proving The Church will be strong and take The Gospel to all the earth. Remember when John The Baptist walked the earth he had The Aaronic Priesthood at a time the Jewish Church was so “polluted” by “hypocrites” Jesus Christ had to start His Church from scratch. So it is possible, and it has happened before, The Aaronic Priesthood can be active on the earth and The Church will be “polluted” by “hypocrites” to the point Jesus Christ can no longer accept it.

I really don’t know what the actual truth is how this will all play out. I do know before the elders of Israel (Mormons) can save the U.S. Constitution The Church will have to be more righteous than the ones they will save it from. Currently we have one elder (Harry Reid) who is doing his best to cut the thread that The Constitution is currently hanging by.

We live in troubled and scary times. If you do not have a sure testimony of Jesus Christ and His Church then start working on getting one. You will need it.

Get your food storage together and don’t forget the T.P. or your belly might be full but your rear end will be sore.

Remember The Plan is to get back to our Heavenly Parents and nothing else matters, nothing else. In the sacred Name of Jesus Christ, A-men.

Brother Jim

The Man Makes His Priesthood

There is a saying in the U.S. Military that, “The uniform doesn’t make the man but the man makes his uniform.”

What this is saying is a man can’t use his uniform to make up for his own inferiorities. A man has to stand on his own according to his own merits and a uniform isn’t going to be able to make up any deficit of character, or anything else, in the final analysis.

So it is with The Priesthood of God. The Priesthood doesn’t make the man but the man makes his Priesthood. It is obvious there are Mormon General Authorities, as well as other Mormons, whose character is so inferior they think they have to use tools like secret Leadership Policy Manuals to punish those who have a superior character. This is just being thin skinned and it will eventually show for all to see. That time is here and will only become even more obvious as time passes.

Like a soldier, a policeman, etc. can either disgrace or give credit to their uniform a Mormon priesthood holder, especially the General Authorities, can either disgrace or give credit to their Priesthood.

I mailed a letter expressing this principle to President Thomas S. Monson about 10 years ago. I got a thank you letter from his secretary but President Hinckley mocked me for this letter in General Conference causing the “proud” audience to belly laugh changing The Conference Center into “a great and spacious building…in the attitude of mocking” (1 Nephi 26-27).

So we now have Mormon General Authorities who have inferior characters that are disgracing The Priesthood of God who consider it necessary to punish anyone who has a superior character if that superior person can prove fault with the Mormon General Authorities.

A much better procedure would be for the Mormon General Authorities to prove their positions on Church Doctrine and Church Policy. Oh, I almost forgot, The General Authorities can’t do that very well because they are proven “hypocrites” that have “polluted the holy church of God” (Mormon 8:38).

As I said before, The Priesthood doesn’t make the man but the man makes his Priesthood. Is it not obvious the Mormon General Authorities have “polluted” the Holy Priesthood of God as well as “polluted the holy church of God?”

Brother Jim Kelley

In your opinion.

I know that the vast majority of the GAs honor their priesthood. Your spiritual manifestations notwithstanding. There are in addition other men in God that do honor their priesthood.

What has happened is that there are many that have grown lazy and have become as the foolish virgins.

Steve said; I was referring, then, to those who with Snuffer claim that the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014;

deep water wrote; Did not Christ proclaim the exact same thing????????

Steve wrote; Wow! Certainly not, that I know of = please provide the reference for where " Christ proclaim[ed] the exact same thing", that is, that "the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles LOST the priesthood in April of 2014" as Snuffer says.

Doctrine and Covenants 121:37
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Question? Wouldn't the Spirit of the Lord be grieving, wouldn't the heavens be withdrawn, if the Church is under condemnation?

Some might say, "I know that the vast majority of the GAs honor their priesthood."

If any GAs honored their priesthood then they would make moves to eliminate the secret Church Leadership Manuals that are used to persecute the Saints for just telling the truth.

Sections that require the punishment of those who tell the truth should be eliminated immediately!

All Church Policy Manuals should be available for inspection in every meeting house library.

Why keep anything secret? Why does The True Church have a problem with the truth?

There is no one who is mortal, except perhaps a mother and a wife, that knows any man well enough to speak for their character.

Jesus Christ knows all and He has assigned the title of "hypocrites" to the GAs. Prideful Mormons beef is with Jesus Christ and He will talk to everyone of you about this on Judgment Day (Moroni 10:27).

For anyone to even suggest they know with certainty any, let alone all or most, of the GAs honor their priesthood is pure folly.