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FWIW, I saw no unkindness in your post. I also meant no unkindness in mine.laronius wrote:
Edit: My post was unkind. Sorry. Suffice it to say I look to our Prophet as a Prophet and to my God as God.
Its not decrying the brethern. Because I (or someone else) state, something is not true, does not mean I am decrying the brethern. Don't be so quick to say because I don't believe A is true that I think B (input bretherns name) is being "condemmned"...kathyn wrote:There is more than one prophet, it is true, but when it comes to leading the Church, there is The Prophet. One doesn't preclude the other. Why is everyone always so quick to decry the Brethren? I am sure it really saddens the Lord to see so many disparage His chosen servants.
So I accept this.“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.
You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 3: 203.)
A prophet of God isn't just some other guy. God told Noah to build an Ark. When the time is right, God will inform His Prophet to speak. Even then some people will ignore him thinking he doesn't know what he's talking about. Prophets, for years, have warned us by telling us to prepare for whatever comes. How many have obeyed? How many will obey when they are told that a plague is coming or a hailstorm combined with fire is going to strike? How many people will know when the Spirit speaks directly to them let alone obey?jo1952 wrote:At some point we must end our dependence upon others. We must be able to recognize our Shepherd's voice. We will not be called through prophets and others. We will be called directly. If we don't recognize that we are being called because we are still paying attention to a prophet's voice because we don't yet recognize our Shepherd's voice, we will miss our Shepherd's voice; and we won't know Him. And even though we know a prophet, if we don't know our Christ, He won't know us either. Read Amos 3:7
I agree, our relationship with our Savior needs to become very personal. No one is saying otherwise. We must be able to take the Holy Spirit as our guide. But the Prophet is more than just someone who tells us to be Christlike. He holds the keys of the priesthood by which we recieve the saving ordinances and perform them on behalf of our dead. He holds the keys by which the work of God is carried out on the earth to make these same ordinances known and available to all. He also receives revelation which is applicable to the whole Church at large. So while our salvation depends much on that which can only be accomplished between us and God that does not mean that the role of the Prophet is no longer needed. God works through others in the salvation of his children. A Prophet is one through whom he works.jo1952 wrote:We cannot be saved by holding onto someone else's coat tails. Our Savior will be calling to us individually; if we don't recognize HIS voice over and above the other voices we listen to, we won't know Him, and He won't know us. Even if we have done things in His name in exact accordance with what others have told us to do (and in accordance with what He has taught them to teach us!), if we don't know Him then He won't know us. At some point in our journey, we MUST be able to see and hear Him of our own accord and personal relationship with Him WITHOUT the use of someone else's eyes and ears; or we will miss Him....just like the Jews missed Him. The usefulness of others must fulfill their purpose in order to finally launch us out on our own wherein we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears. Truth is everywhere; seek ye first the kingdom of God.
My feelings, too, Laronius. It has always been my feeling that if anyone (including myself) ever feels at odds by what our Prophets, Seers and Revelators are saying...it is time to drop to our knees and pray for understanding that we might be on the same page with them. This in no way takes away from my stewardship and what I am responsible for...and what I am qualified to receive revelation about. The Lord's "house" is a house of order and everything is done in order. Sometimes people use phrases that others quibble about,ie., "I know the Church is true". My hearing them say that is interpreted as "I know the Gospel is true". The Church was set up by the Lord and left in the hands of,first of all, those he has called to be his leaders. I have always felt that our leaders give us advice and counsel on those things that will draw us closer to the Savior and to our Father in Heaven. That is certainly their stewardship. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel will be taken throughout the world. I find it hard to understand how some don't seem to understand these basic fundamentals and manage to find fault at every turn. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has saved my life. I am grateful to the orgnaization through which the Lord is working to enable us to return to Him and our Father. Is it perfect...no...but the Gospel it espouses and teaches is.keep the faith wrote:laronius wrote:When reading the 14 points you need to do so in the context of who the Prophet is and what he is called to do.
He holds keys for directing the affairs of the Church.
He receives revelation for the Church.
He teaches correct principles, warns and exhorts the Church.
He does not replace the need for the Holy Ghost in our individual lives.
He does not replace the need to search the scriptures and liken them to our individual lives.
He does not tell us everything we should do every second of the day.
He does not remove the burden of gaining a witness of the gospel for ourselves.
See the difference between his responsibility and ours?
I have absolutely no problems with the 14 points. I think the problem some people have is that they try to read between the lines and come up with things that were never intended for them to mean. Having a Prophet is essential, but the burden is, has always been, and will ever be upon us in learning truth and living the gospel by the Spirit. I sustain Pres. Monson as God's prophet, seer, and revelator and I take his counsel most seriously. But I also realize that at the end of the day, when it comes to the individual choices I have to make, I have the same responsibility over my stewardship as Pres. Monson has over his.
Thank you for your common sense approach here Iaronius.
If you pray for that, don't you think that is what the Lord will give you? Why wouldn't you pray to know the Lord's will for you concerning the matter? Pres Uchtdorf just told us, last week, that they, the GAs, make mistakes, but your post suggests that they cannot make mistakes and always speak for God. So if a GA makes a mistake, you are going to ask God to put you on the same mistaken path? Only God and Christ do not make mistakes. Only God can reveal, to you, what his will for you will be.Natasha wrote: My feelings, too, Laronius. It has always been my feeling that if anyone (including myself) ever feels at odds by what our Prophets, Seers and Revelators are saying...it is time to drop to our knees and pray for understanding that we might be on the same page with them. This in no way takes away from my stewardship and what I am responsible for...and what I am qualified to receive revelation about. The Lord's "house" is a house of order and everything is done in order. Sometimes people use phrases that others quibble about,ie., "I know the Church is true". My hearing them say that is interpreted as "I know the Gospel is true". The Church was set up by the Lord and left in the hands of,first of all, those he has called to be his leaders. I have always felt that our leaders give us advice and counsel on those things that will draw us closer to the Savior and to our Father in Heaven. That is certainly their stewardship. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel will be taken throughout the world. I find it hard to understand how some don't seem to understand these basic fundamentals and manage to find fault at every turn. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has saved my life. I am grateful to the orgnaization through which the Lord is working to enable us to return to Him and our Father. Is it perfect...no...but the Gospe lit espouses and teaches is.
The ordinances which are visually symbolically performed mean nothing unless the spiritual takes place. The physical points to the spiritual. The marriage of us (the Bride) with our Christ (the Bridegroom) which is symbolically performed in the Temple is not actually "sealed" until it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise; it is only guaranteed AFTER the spiritual has been accomplished. Prophets, laws, symbols, tokens, scripture, etc....these are all tools provided by God to point us toward Him. We need those things because we aren't able to figure it out on our own. We must live in faith; God isn't going to force Himself upon us. Tools help point us toward Him; they are vital in helping us to awaken spiritually!! But we must ultimately be able to abandon the tools because the tools don't have the power to actually save. It is a precarious and narrow path to be able to enter heaven. What happens is that we become dependent upon the tools to be our eyes and ears. Even though the tools are necessary in getting us pointed toward God and to teach about what needs to spiritually take place, there is a danger of overstepping the bounds of their purpose....and turning them into idols. When we become fearful to look anywhere but to tools (and it is natural to do so....but being "natural" is also being an enemy to God....oh...it is NOT easy this journey!!) because we don't want to do the "wrong" thing, we wind up with all of the others who are still in the lake of fire and brimstone (in bondage to corruption).laronius wrote:I agree, our relationship with our Savior needs to become very personal. No one is saying otherwise. We must be able to take the Holy Spirit as our guide. But the Prophet is more than just someone who tells us to be Christlike. He holds the keys of the priesthood by which we recieve the saving ordinances and perform them on behalf of our dead. He holds the keys by which the work of God is carried out on the earth to make these same ordinances known and available to all. He also receives revelation which is applicable to the whole Church at large. So while our salvation depends much on that which can only be accomplished between us and God that does not mean that the role of the Prophet is no longer needed. God works through others in the salvation of his children. A Prophet is one through whom he works.jo1952 wrote:We cannot be saved by holding onto someone else's coat tails. Our Savior will be calling to us individually; if we don't recognize HIS voice over and above the other voices we listen to, we won't know Him, and He won't know us. Even if we have done things in His name in exact accordance with what others have told us to do (and in accordance with what He has taught them to teach us!), if we don't know Him then He won't know us. At some point in our journey, we MUST be able to see and hear Him of our own accord and personal relationship with Him WITHOUT the use of someone else's eyes and ears; or we will miss Him....just like the Jews missed Him. The usefulness of others must fulfill their purpose in order to finally launch us out on our own wherein we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears. Truth is everywhere; seek ye first the kingdom of God.
You keep intimating that there comes a point when we no longer need to listen to the Prophet. Is this what you are saying?
jo1952 wrote:The ordinances which are visually symbolically performed mean nothing unless the spiritual takes place. The physical points to the spiritual. The marriage of us (the Bride) with our Christ (the Bridegroom) which is symbolically performed in the Temple is not actually "sealed" until it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise; it is only guaranteed AFTER the spiritual has been accomplished. But the physical has to come first and prophets enable that. Prophets, laws, symbols, tokens, scripture, etc....these are all tools provided by God to point us toward Him. We need those things because we aren't able to figure it out on our own. We must live in faith; God isn't going to force Himself upon us. Tools help point us toward Him; they are vital in helping us to awaken spiritually!! But we must ultimately be able to abandon the tools because the tools don't have the power to actually save. These "tools" come from God. It is a precarious and narrow path to be able to enter heaven. What happens is that we become dependent upon the tools to be our eyes and ears. Here is where your logic fails. Many people are able to continue using these tools without becoming overly dependent upon them. It is very doable. Even though the tools are necessary in getting us pointed toward God and to teach about what needs to spiritually take place, there is a danger of overstepping the bounds of their purpose....and turning them into idols. When we become fearful to look anywhere but to tools (and it is natural to do so....but being "natural" is also being an enemy to God....oh...it is NOT easy this journey!!) because we don't want to do the "wrong" thing, we wind up with all of the others who are still in the lake of fire and brimstone (in bondage to corruption).
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving (dwindling in unbelief!!), and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
When this happens, we find ourselves not only being among the fearful; but also among the idolaters wherein tools (idols) have come between God and us. We are also now suffering dwindling in unbelief. We have already lost things we used to believe and study as scripture; such as the Lectures of Faith being removed from our Standard Works. Things which are precious have been lost! (Have you been wathing Lord of the Rings lately?) That's funny. I just happen to have a copy of the Lectures on my shelf. And to think that all along they had been lost to the world. Maybe I shall become known as Lord of the Lectures! All of the truth revealed to Joseph Smith---he was never able to reveal it to the Church because we weren’t ready. You mean, all the truths that Joseph the tool tried to reveal but we as members had just become so dependent upon him and would too intently listen to what he said to the point that he could no longer reveal them to us because we were paying too much attention to him. Those darn early saints, if only they had stopped listening and abandoned the tools a littler earlier, we could have received so much more and maybe even established Zion by now. Bummer. They still have not been revealed to us….so we don’t yet have all of the things which need to be revealed to us so that we can know to believe in them!!! As such, we dwindle in unbelief because we don’t know what all needs to be believed. So what you are proposing is that if we all ignore Pres. Monson and not listen to what he says then he might finally say what we need to hear? That is an interesting strategy.
The good news is that God’s purposes will not fail! Who can stay God’s hand? Amen.
Peace!
We each see and hear what we are able to see and hear; as well as what we want to see and hear.laronius wrote:jo1952 wrote:The ordinances which are visually symbolically performed mean nothing unless the spiritual takes place. The physical points to the spiritual. The marriage of us (the Bride) with our Christ (the Bridegroom) which is symbolically performed in the Temple is not actually "sealed" until it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise; it is only guaranteed AFTER the spiritual has been accomplished. But the physical has to come first and prophets enable that. Prophets, laws, symbols, tokens, scripture, etc....these are all tools provided by God to point us toward Him. We need those things because we aren't able to figure it out on our own. We must live in faith; God isn't going to force Himself upon us. Tools help point us toward Him; they are vital in helping us to awaken spiritually!! But we must ultimately be able to abandon the tools because the tools don't have the power to actually save. These "tools" come from God. It is a precarious and narrow path to be able to enter heaven. What happens is that we become dependent upon the tools to be our eyes and ears. Here is where your logic fails. Many people are able to continue using these tools without becoming overly dependent upon them. It is very doable. Even though the tools are necessary in getting us pointed toward God and to teach about what needs to spiritually take place, there is a danger of overstepping the bounds of their purpose....and turning them into idols. When we become fearful to look anywhere but to tools (and it is natural to do so....but being "natural" is also being an enemy to God....oh...it is NOT easy this journey!!) because we don't want to do the "wrong" thing, we wind up with all of the others who are still in the lake of fire and brimstone (in bondage to corruption).
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving (dwindling in unbelief!!), and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
When this happens, we find ourselves not only being among the fearful; but also among the idolaters wherein tools (idols) have come between God and us. We are also now suffering dwindling in unbelief. We have already lost things we used to believe and study as scripture; such as the Lectures of Faith being removed from our Standard Works. Things which are precious have been lost! (Have you been wathing Lord of the Rings lately?) That's funny. I just happen to have a copy of the Lectures on my shelf. And to think that all along they had been lost to the world. All of the truth revealed to Joseph Smith---he was never able to reveal it to the Church because we weren’t ready. You mean, all the truths that Joseph the tool tried to reveal but we as members had just become so dependent upon him and would too intently listen to what he said to the point that he could no longer reveal them to us because we were paying too much attention to him. Those darn early saints, if only they had stopped listening and abandoned the tools a littler earlier, we could have received so much more and maybe even established Zion by now. Bummer. They still have not been revealed to us….so we don’t yet have all of the things which need to be revealed to us so that we can know to believe in them!!! As such, we dwindle in unbelief because we don’t know what all needs to be believed. So what you are proposing is that if we all ignore Pres. Monson and not listen to what he says then he might finally say what we need to hear? That is an interesting strategy.
The good news is that God’s purposes will not fail! Who can stay God’s hand? Amen.
Peace!
jo1952 wrote:We each see and hear what we are able to see and hear; as well as what we want to see and hear.laronius wrote:jo1952 wrote:The ordinances which are visually symbolically performed mean nothing unless the spiritual takes place. The physical points to the spiritual. The marriage of us (the Bride) with our Christ (the Bridegroom) which is symbolically performed in the Temple is not actually "sealed" until it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise; it is only guaranteed AFTER the spiritual has been accomplished. But the physical has to come first and prophets enable that. Prophets, laws, symbols, tokens, scripture, etc....these are all tools provided by God to point us toward Him. We need those things because we aren't able to figure it out on our own. We must live in faith; God isn't going to force Himself upon us. Tools help point us toward Him; they are vital in helping us to awaken spiritually!! But we must ultimately be able to abandon the tools because the tools don't have the power to actually save. These "tools" come from God. It is a precarious and narrow path to be able to enter heaven. What happens is that we become dependent upon the tools to be our eyes and ears. Here is where your logic fails. Many people are able to continue using these tools without becoming overly dependent upon them. It is very doable. Even though the tools are necessary in getting us pointed toward God and to teach about what needs to spiritually take place, there is a danger of overstepping the bounds of their purpose....and turning them into idols. When we become fearful to look anywhere but to tools (and it is natural to do so....but being "natural" is also being an enemy to God....oh...it is NOT easy this journey!!) because we don't want to do the "wrong" thing, we wind up with all of the others who are still in the lake of fire and brimstone (in bondage to corruption).
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving (dwindling in unbelief!!), and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
When this happens, we find ourselves not only being among the fearful; but also among the idolaters wherein tools (idols) have come between God and us. We are also now suffering dwindling in unbelief. We have already lost things we used to believe and study as scripture; such as the Lectures of Faith being removed from our Standard Works. Things which are precious have been lost! (Have you been wathing Lord of the Rings lately?) That's funny. I just happen to have a copy of the Lectures on my shelf. And to think that all along they had been lost to the world. All of the truth revealed to Joseph Smith---he was never able to reveal it to the Church because we weren’t ready. You mean, all the truths that Joseph the tool tried to reveal but we as members had just become so dependent upon him and would too intently listen to what he said to the point that he could no longer reveal them to us because we were paying too much attention to him. Those darn early saints, if only they had stopped listening and abandoned the tools a littler earlier, we could have received so much more and maybe even established Zion by now. Bummer. They still have not been revealed to us….so we don’t yet have all of the things which need to be revealed to us so that we can know to believe in them!!! As such, we dwindle in unbelief because we don’t know what all needs to be believed. So what you are proposing is that if we all ignore Pres. Monson and not listen to what he says then he might finally say what we need to hear? That is an interesting strategy.
The good news is that God’s purposes will not fail! Who can stay God’s hand? Amen.
Peace!
Peace.
I take it that you do not believe the scriptures I quoted. Are you saying they no longer apply? The church will be left without a rudder? True we cannot go to heaven on somebody else's shirt tail, but this is not what we're discussing here. We have to do our part as individuals, but the church has to have a prophet to direct the ship. Are we now on the same page?jo1952 wrote:We cannot be saved by holding onto someone else's coat tails. Our Savior will be calling to us individually; if we don't recognize HIS voice over and above the other voices we listen to, we won't know Him, and He won't know us. Even if we have done things in His name in exact accordance with what others have told us to do (and in accordance with what He has taught them to teach us!), if we don't know Him then He won't know us. At some point in our journey, we MUST be able to see and hear Him of our own accord and personal relationship with Him WITHOUT the use of someone else's eyes and ears; or we will miss Him....just like the Jews missed Him. The usefulness of others must fulfill their purpose in order to finally launch us out on our own wherein we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears. Truth is everywhere; seek ye first the kingdom of God.
I answered these issues in my post above with he scriptures concerning prophets. Either we believe them or we don't but we don't ignore the fact that they are there to read. We're told that if the Lord's prophet says things on his own it will not go well with him.Thomas wrote:If you pray for that, don't you think that is what the Lord will give you? Why wouldn't you pray to know the Lord's will for you concerning the matter? Pres Uchtdorf just told us, last week, that they, the GAs, make mistakes, but your post suggests that they cannot make mistakes and always speak for God. So if a GA makes a mistake, you are going to ask God to put you on the same mistaken path? Only God and Christ do not make mistakes. Only God can reveal, to you, what his will for you will be.Natasha wrote: My feelings, too, Laronius. It has always been my feeling that if anyone (including myself) ever feels at odds by what our Prophets, Seers and Revelators are saying...it is time to drop to our knees and pray for understanding that we might be on the same page with them. This in no way takes away from my stewardship and what I am responsible for...and what I am qualified to receive revelation about. The Lord's "house" is a house of order and everything is done in order. Sometimes people use phrases that others quibble about,ie., "I know the Church is true". My hearing them say that is interpreted as "I know the Gospel is true". The Church was set up by the Lord and left in the hands of,first of all, those he has called to be his leaders. I have always felt that our leaders give us advice and counsel on those things that will draw us closer to the Savior and to our Father in Heaven. That is certainly their stewardship. The Church is the vehicle by which the Gospel will be taken throughout the world. I find it hard to understand how some don't seem to understand these basic fundamentals and manage to find fault at every turn. The Gospel of Jesus Christ has saved my life. I am grateful to the orgnaization through which the Lord is working to enable us to return to Him and our Father. Is it perfect...no...but the Gospe lit espouses and teaches is.
And some folks don't want to believe scripture concerning the Lord's prophets. They're not there for us to merely see their face every so often. Had the other seven with Noah not listened to him where would they have ended up? Think about it. Prophets have their place and purpose. For anyone feeling above needing to follow the prophet, God will deal with them in a way unexpected. The Book of Mormon is replete with instance where people didn't listen to the prophets and paid for it. Why would it be any different now. Besides, Christ was considered as a Prophet by some. A few even came to know He was Christ, the Son of God. But for the ones who ignored Him, where did it get them?jo1952 wrote:We each see and hear what we are able to see and hear; as well as what we want to see and hear.laronius wrote:jo1952 wrote:The ordinances which are visually symbolically performed mean nothing unless the spiritual takes place. The physical points to the spiritual. The marriage of us (the Bride) with our Christ (the Bridegroom) which is symbolically performed in the Temple is not actually "sealed" until it is sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise; it is only guaranteed AFTER the spiritual has been accomplished. But the physical has to come first and prophets enable that. Prophets, laws, symbols, tokens, scripture, etc....these are all tools provided by God to point us toward Him. We need those things because we aren't able to figure it out on our own. We must live in faith; God isn't going to force Himself upon us. Tools help point us toward Him; they are vital in helping us to awaken spiritually!! But we must ultimately be able to abandon the tools because the tools don't have the power to actually save. These "tools" come from God. It is a precarious and narrow path to be able to enter heaven. What happens is that we become dependent upon the tools to be our eyes and ears. Here is where your logic fails. Many people are able to continue using these tools without becoming overly dependent upon them. It is very doable. Even though the tools are necessary in getting us pointed toward God and to teach about what needs to spiritually take place, there is a danger of overstepping the bounds of their purpose....and turning them into idols. When we become fearful to look anywhere but to tools (and it is natural to do so....but being "natural" is also being an enemy to God....oh...it is NOT easy this journey!!) because we don't want to do the "wrong" thing, we wind up with all of the others who are still in the lake of fire and brimstone (in bondage to corruption).
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving (dwindling in unbelief!!), and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
When this happens, we find ourselves not only being among the fearful; but also among the idolaters wherein tools (idols) have come between God and us. We are also now suffering dwindling in unbelief. We have already lost things we used to believe and study as scripture; such as the Lectures of Faith being removed from our Standard Works. Things which are precious have been lost! (Have you been wathing Lord of the Rings lately?) That's funny. I just happen to have a copy of the Lectures on my shelf. And to think that all along they had been lost to the world. All of the truth revealed to Joseph Smith---he was never able to reveal it to the Church because we weren’t ready. You mean, all the truths that Joseph the tool tried to reveal but we as members had just become so dependent upon him and would too intently listen to what he said to the point that he could no longer reveal them to us because we were paying too much attention to him. Those darn early saints, if only they had stopped listening and abandoned the tools a littler earlier, we could have received so much more and maybe even established Zion by now. Bummer. They still have not been revealed to us….so we don’t yet have all of the things which need to be revealed to us so that we can know to believe in them!!! As such, we dwindle in unbelief because we don’t know what all needs to be believed. So what you are proposing is that if we all ignore Pres. Monson and not listen to what he says then he might finally say what we need to hear? That is an interesting strategy.
The good news is that God’s purposes will not fail! Who can stay God’s hand? Amen.
Peace!
Peace.
We aren't getting anywhere in this. It's time to move on.freedomfighter wrote: And some folks don't want to believe scripture concerning the Lord's prophets. They're not there for us to merely see their face every so often. Had the other seven with Noah not listened to him where would they have ended up? Think about it. Prophets have their place and purpose. For anyone feeling above needing to follow the prophet, God will deal with them in a way unexpected. The Book of Mormon is replete with instance where people didn't listen to the prophets and paid for it. Why would it be any different now. Besides, Christ was considered as a Prophet by some. A few even came to know He was Christ, the Son of God. But for the ones who ignored Him, where did it get them?
The Church is vital for God's purposes. Just don't forget that Christ is our Savior. The Church is not our Savior. The prophet(s) are not our Savior(s).freedomfighter wrote:I take it that you do not believe the scriptures I quoted. Are you saying they no longer apply? The church will be left without a rudder? True we cannot go to heaven on somebody else's shirt tail, but this is not what we're discussing here. We have to do our part as individuals, but the church has to have a prophet to direct the ship. Are we now on the same page?jo1952 wrote:We cannot be saved by holding onto someone else's coat tails. Our Savior will be calling to us individually; if we don't recognize HIS voice over and above the other voices we listen to, we won't know Him, and He won't know us. Even if we have done things in His name in exact accordance with what others have told us to do (and in accordance with what He has taught them to teach us!), if we don't know Him then He won't know us. At some point in our journey, we MUST be able to see and hear Him of our own accord and personal relationship with Him WITHOUT the use of someone else's eyes and ears; or we will miss Him....just like the Jews missed Him. The usefulness of others must fulfill their purpose in order to finally launch us out on our own wherein we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears. Truth is everywhere; seek ye first the kingdom of God.
jo1952 wrote:The Church is vital for God's purposes. Just don't forget that Christ is our Savior. TRUE The Church is not our Savior. But the church is Christ's church, He established it. So you no longer think the church is essential? Strange! The prophet(s) are not our Savior(s). True, but it is the prophets of whom God reveals is word through, stated by Him. You no longer believe this?freedomfighter wrote:I take it that you do not believe the scriptures I quoted. Are you saying they no longer apply? The church will be left without a rudder? True we cannot go to heaven on somebody else's shirt tail, but this is not what we're discussing here. We have to do our part as individuals, but the church has to have a prophet to direct the ship. Are we now on the same page?jo1952 wrote:We cannot be saved by holding onto someone else's coat tails. Our Savior will be calling to us individually; if we don't recognize HIS voice over and above the other voices we listen to, we won't know Him, and He won't know us. Even if we have done things in His name in exact accordance with what others have told us to do (and in accordance with what He has taught them to teach us!), if we don't know Him then He won't know us. At some point in our journey, we MUST be able to see and hear Him of our own accord and personal relationship with Him WITHOUT the use of someone else's eyes and ears; or we will miss Him....just like the Jews missed Him. The usefulness of others must fulfill their purpose in order to finally launch us out on our own wherein we can see and hear with our own eyes and ears. Truth is everywhere; seek ye first the kingdom of God.
Are you receiving new truth and light....brand new things to believe? Yes, but they are scriptural, not vain imaginations labeled new enlightenment. What brand new things have been revealed to fill you up with light...as opposed to hearing the same things over and over? Like reading scriptures, feasting on them? Do you know all the things that you need to believe? No one does, specially the newly baptized, but at the moment they are, they qualify for God's kingdom. Truth never ends. True, however, the lack of knowledge is not as important as is what we do with it, and the condition of our heart. Are you completely filled with light....no longer in any degree of darkness? No, are you? Is the best among us? God wants a willing mind and a dependence on Him. Are you satisfied with the amount of light that you have received? No, but what I do with that light makes all the difference. Light is no longer light when we go backwards and ignore scriptures and the need for prophets, and make claims that are not scriptural. How can this be new light? I know that we have at least as much darkness as we had when Joseph was not able to reveal to us everything that had been revealed to him. That darkness is hedging up the light that has been revealed. I'm not happy about it....I don't love darkness more than light. So I am seeking it and finding it! At this point, my comments are rhetorical. There is no need to respond. I am moving on. I think it best as well.