LDS Freedom Forum

Some questions regarding Joseph Smith's claims about God and the eternal nature of intelligences came up in the feminism/Ordain Women thread. So I started this thread to address dome of Skybird's points.

SkyBird wrote:Many intellectuals want to separate "intelligence" from "spirit beings" to justify a belief that our spirits had a beginning from Heavenly parents.

Okay, first I want to clarify that to acknowledge a difference between intelligences and those who were organized is not the same thing as saying that our spirits had a "beginning from heavenly parents". What it is saying is that there is a difference between intelligences that are organized and those who are not.

From Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Question:

Who/what organized those intelligences? How exactly was it done?

The reality is, it is impossible to separate "intelligence" and our "spirit" from each other, for they are inseparably connected according to Joseph: "The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth"..."Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth..." (So we were also, a "Spirit of truth") ... "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93) "God (male & female) never had the power to create the spirit of man." (WofJS pg. 341, 346, 352, 360) The four men that took notes of this sermon were respectively pg. 341 Willard Richards, pg. 346 Wilford Woodruff, pg. 352 Thomas Bullock, pg. 360 William Clayton.

None of this persuades me that Abraham 3:22 is off or wrong. The intelligences... co-eternals and forever existing as they may be... were at some point organized, and thus their state changed.

Now there is a difference between what we were as spirits and what we are now as mortals. Our mortal mothers constructed that difference (our bodies). Does that mean we "began" with her? No. But there is still a difference. Why, exactly, is Heavenly Mother then removed from the equation in establishing the difference between intelligences that were "organized" and those that were not?

paper face wrote:Some questions regarding Joseph Smith's claims about God and the eternal nature of intelligences came up in the feminism/Ordain Women thread. So I started this thread to address dome of Skybird's points.

SkyBird wrote:Many intellectuals want to separate "intelligence" from "spirit beings" to justify a belief that our spirits had a beginning from Heavenly parents.

Okay, first I want to clarify that to acknowledge a difference between intelligences and those who were organized is not the same thing as saying that our spirits had a "beginning from heavenly parents". What it is saying is that there is a difference between intelligences that are organized and those who are not.

From Abraham 3:

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

Question:

Who/what organized those intelligences? How exactly was it done?

The reality is, it is impossible to separate "intelligence" and our "spirit" from each other, for they are inseparably connected according to Joseph: "The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth"..."Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth..." (So we were also, a "Spirit of truth") ... "Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93) "God (male & female) never had the power to create the spirit of man." (WofJS pg. 341, 346, 352, 360) The four men that took notes of this sermon were respectively pg. 341 Willard Richards, pg. 346 Wilford Woodruff, pg. 352 Thomas Bullock, pg. 360 William Clayton.

None of this persuades me that Abraham 3:22 is off or wrong. The intelligences... co-eternals and forever existing as they may be... were at some point organized, and thus their state changed.

Now there is a difference between what we were as spirits and what we are now as mortals. Our mortal mothers constructed that difference (our bodies). Does that mean we "began" with her? No. But there is still a difference. Why, exactly, is Heavenly Mother then removed from the equation in establishing the difference between intelligences that were "organized" and those that were not?

paperface,

To me the word "organized" "the intelligences that were organized" has reference to being taught, instructed, edified, uplifted... so what happened in this "first estate" is that all the "eternal" "spirits" were taught, instructed, and had a choice to be edified and uplifted in this estate. As we know 1/3 choose not to be "edified or uplifted" in that 1st estate... all the rest did. I do not, as I have stated, separate our "spirit and intelligence" from each other. I personally feel that I have, along with all others, "always existed" as a "spirit being" of intelligence, light and truth. By excepting the "plan of salvation" in that 1st estate, I grew from "grace to grace" and just as we are "born again," spiritually speaking, as noted in the BOM and become the sons and daughters of Christ in mortality, "spiritually begotten" of Him and called the "children of Christ":

And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:25)

And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)

Just as we become the "children of Christ" in this mortal world through our desire to become like Him in character and attribute... so in our 1st estate I believe we became the "children of God our Father" through our desire to become like Him in character and attribute and thus we were "born of God" in our 1st estate, which gave us the "right" to come to earth and take upon ourselves the mortal flesh. I not only believe this but the Spirit has born witness to me of this truth.

Thus when Joseph Smith took off his ring from his finger and said: "I want to reason more on the Spirit of Man, for I am dwelling on the Spirit of Man; I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal Spirit because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it into, as the Devil lives there would be an end and all the fools and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning--they must have an end and then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But with boldness I proclaim from the housetop that God himself could not create himself. Our Spirit is a self existing being from age to age and there is no creation about it" (WofJS pg 352). I feel this is a truth we need to understand as we seek to make our journey back to our Father.

We are therefore co-equal because our "potential" to become as God is, is innate to each of us. "Ye are gods." (see footnote for John 10:34).

We are therefore co-eternal because our "Spirit and Intelligence" are one and the same and is "from age to age and there is no creation about it" (Joseph Smith).

SkyBird wrote:To me the word "organized" "the intelligences that were organized" has reference to being taught, instructed, edified, uplifted... so what happened in this "first estate" is that all the "eternal" "spirits" were taught, instructed, and had a choice to be edified and uplifted in this estate.

Okay. That's cool for you, but I'm not sure why I should buy your narrow rationale on what the word "organized" means from the likes of a God that organizes things spiritually and physically. God also organized in other parts of the book of Abraham to mean organizing physically, as in Abraham 4:

14 And the Gods organized the lights in the expanse of the heaven, and caused them to divide the day from the night; and organized them to be for signs and for seasons, and for days and for years;

If the body is a temple (Christ) and if the temple is a microcosm of the cosmos (Nibley), then why would the meaning of the word organize suddenly switch to your meaning when speaking of intelligences and spirits?

All spirit is matter. Why, then, would spirit birth not be part of the process?

I do not, as I have stated, separate our "spirit and intelligence" from each other.

Well, that's different than what I get from Joseph Smith. He gave these two groups different designations. Why, exactly, do you conflate them?

I personally feel that I have, along with all others, "always existed" as a "spirit being" of intelligence, light and truth. By excepting the "plan of salvation" in that 1st estate, I grew from "grace to grace" and just as we are "born again," spiritually speaking, as noted in the BOM and become the sons and daughters of Christ in mortality, "spiritually begotten" of Him and called the "children of Christ":

Immaterial to the discussion. At some point you were organized, and other than your testimony, I have no evidence that your interpretation of that word is correct or represents the testimony of Christ. This is precisely why I maintain that your argument is neither fully explained nor supported by the verses/quotes that you cite.

And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 27:25)

Okay. What does this scripture prove?

And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
(Book of Mormon | Mosiah 5:7)

Likewise, this scripture addresses phenomena that occurs while in mortality.

Just as we become the "children of Christ" in this mortal world through our desire to become like Him in character and attribute...

No. Our desire merely enacts faith. It is through the elements of his Atonement that we become his children: Water, spirit, & blood. And those three elements are also those of motherhood according to Moses 6.

so in our 1st estate I believe we became the "children of God our Father" through our desire to become like Him in character and attribute and thus we were "born of God" in our 1st estate, which gave us the "right" to come to earth and take upon ourselves the mortal flesh. I not only believe this but the Spirit has born witness to me of this truth.

Good for you. But there is no evidence to support this interpretation in scripture. In fact, Christ directly compares his rebirths with the births performed by mortal mothers. He does not compare his rebirths to anything performed by HF.

Thus when Joseph Smith took off his ring from his finger and said: "I want to reason more on the Spirit of Man, for I am dwelling on the Spirit of Man; I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man, the immortal Spirit because it has no beginning. Suppose you cut it into, as the Devil lives there would be an end and all the fools and wise men from the beginning of creation who say that man had a beginning--they must have an end and then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But with boldness I proclaim from the housetop that God himself could not create himself. Our Spirit is a self existing being from age to age and there is no creation about it" (WofJS pg 352). I feel this is a truth we need to understand as we seek to make our journey back to our Father.

Well, I agree with his statement. But there is absolutely zero evidence in what you have posted thus far that suggests that an exalted Mother in Heaven isn't part of the process of change that we are discussing. Joseph's example merely touches on our immortality. It suggests nothing of how we were organized, and it also does not support your interpretation of its content.

We are therefore co-equal because our "potential" to become as God is, is innate to each of us. "Ye are gods." (see footnote for John 10:34).

...and? Potential is not the same as realization. This statement doesn't change the fact that the intelligences were organized.

We are therefore co-eternal because our "Spirit and Intelligence" are one and the same and is "from age to age and there is no creation about it" (Joseph Smith).

No creation. But certainly organization.

To me, you are essentially suggesting a pre-existence that is more akin to a grand multi-level marketing meeting. A couple people give some rousing speeches, break the larger group into smaller ones for more indoctrination, then celebrate as initiates graduate into higher levels of performance and seniority. A bunch of spirits shuffling around into slot assignments. I see no reason whatsoever to believe that this is true, even if the spirit has born witness to you.

You asserted in the other thread that your interpretation is the more logical, but I see no reason to agree. To me Christ's Atonement of water, spirit, and blood follows the pattern that his father set when he himself was a Messiah. Thus mortal motherhood shares in the same elements, only with Heavenly Mother instead of HF. A mortal woman, after all, does not organize the spirit that enters into the temple body of the infant that is born from her womb. She is a partner with deity in her veil work as a mother.

If there is Fatherhood with a capital "f" in heaven, then there is certainly Motherhood also. Your interpretation appears to leave the entire process asexual and amorphous. I don't think that was Joseph Smith's intended understanding at all, nor the Lord's.

I respect your feelings and beliefs "paper face" ... we all must seek the truth, which will make some Celestial, some Terrestrial and others Telestial. Light, Truth and Intelligence is found in all kingdoms of Glory, even here on earth! I hold to what I know is true as I am sure you do as well. The only persons who will ever change my current beliefs is the Father and the Son on a "one on one" "face to face" experience and conversation where I can ask question and reason as one man reasons with another as stated in:

Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.
12 Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 50:11 - 12)

This is why I came to earth... to part this veil... to know the truth from the source, which will make me free.

Thanks for sharing your ideas!