LDS Freedom Forum

I suppose I'm looking for some anonymous input on a quandary I am facing. I want to be baptized into the LDS church but in truth I can't answer the interview questions in a way that most people would associate with proper LDS answers. I met with a former bishop that my wife and I have befriended and asked him, but he was pretty skilled at dodging whether or not I should proceed. His response was to pray on it some more. What I have found to be the answer to everything, which is fine however it can lead to a case of paralysis by analysis. I have prayed and my feeling is that I should join LDS.

My wife and I have been going to the local ward since just after the last election, so almost a year. Great church and people, but I'm not on board with some of the stuff within the church. I think the BoM is great and is parallel to the Bible so I'm good with it. I think the church does a great job of serving peoples quest towards improving their relationship and understanding of God. I could go on a lot more but I'm going to instead talk about where I am at and why I think the missionaries would end up referring me to the current bishop.

I think it's possible Joseph Smith was a prophet, don't have feelings one way or the other and frankly don't care much if he was or wasn't.

I think that the BoM likely isn't literal, but once again don't care. It echoes the Bible and I'm good with it, and think it has a lot to offer.

I really don't care for the D&C and think people spend far too much time focusing on them instead of the BoM and the Bible. I know the D&C is billed as continuing revelation but I'm not sold on that. I see this as a case of focusing on mans words instead of the word of God and Jesus.

I'm not convinced in any way shape or form that any of the Presidents of the church are prophets, in fact I don't believe them to be...However, this doesn't change the fact that they are doing good work and overseeing a church that is doing great work and helping people be much better people.

I'm being rather short with my thoughts, this is a message board after all, but I think my general thinking is made clear. Even with all of that I want to be baptized in LDS. I think it's the best church for me and my family and I can learn a lot from it and become a far better person than I am now. We went to nearly every church in our area and none stuck with me like LDS has, I just don't fully buy in on some major issues I suppose. I'm capable of not talking about them to church members, and honestly I'm intent on studying and following the BoM and the Bible. The rest doesn't matter as much in terms of salvation and finding God. It's man made, and prone to mistakes, I'm good with following what came form God and Jesus more directly. Which is what we are suppose to do anyways.

Input? PM's are appreciated as well if you don't want to offer something publicly.

I'd suggest that thru study and prayer getting either a definite yes or no answer on some of the things that you consider "not that important" will resolve your predicament.

My personal feeling <----emphasis| is that moving forward with those questions and concerns unresolved may be a problem. Or it may not, if you are getting a strong prompting to join the church - FOLLOW IT!

Best to you!

Kevin

Original_Intent wrote:I'd suggest that thru study and prayer getting either a definite yes or no answer on some of the things that you consider "not that important" will resolve your predicament.

My personal feeling <----emphasis| is that moving forward with those questions and concerns unresolved may be a problem. Or it may not, if you are getting a strong prompting to join the church - FOLLOW IT!

Best to you!

Kevin

Yes, I have a pretty strong prompting to join the church. I just have a hard time imaginging how the missionaries are going to respond if I answer their questions honestly :))

There are a lot of life long members who believe more similarly to you than you might think. Many don't believe in the historicity of the BoM, question the validity of the D&C, don't believe the leaders of the church are prophets and more. Some time ago I read a blog post that brought up a lot of the same concerns you had, but stated they felt it was the right place for them and they liked the standards the church taught them and their family. They hoped they could still be considered LDS, even if they don't toe the line of mainstream LDS thought.

Your current beliefs would probably make it hard for you to obtain a temple recommend. However, if you're honest in your interview, I think it's possible they'll still allow you to be baptized and then encourage you to continue to learn and pray more, in hopes you'll eventually gain a testimony of these other things. You should also emphasize that you do feel prompted to be baptized. You may be granted your request, but it will depend on how your interviewer feels.

I think it's wonderful you are seeking and receiving personal revelation and that you are committed to following Christ. I personally do believe understanding Joseph Smith and the restoration is a key in helping us come closer to Christ. However, I don't look down on, and hope not to exclude, someone who hasn't come to the same conclusions I have. In fact, mine are changing all the time, as I learn more. Getting baptized is just one step of many in bringing us closer to Christ. I hope you are able to take it because it can lead you to progress and learn so much more!

God speed!

Edited for grammar

I had similar issues.

The chosen prophets of the church. They are chosen by the church so they are indeed prophets. So I call them that. I always add that when they speak for the Lord I double check what they say with the Holy Ghost. Since none of then say "Thus sayeth the Lord" there is no problem.

The church was established by Joseph Smith under the command of God. So it is His church. But so are the other sects but I don't mention them. But the prophet does speak for the LDS church and not the others.

I am sure you can honestly answer that you believe the standard works are from God. I always say they are. But I think the original works are the correct ones and the interpretation is between me and God.

I do not think Joseph was able to give to the church all he knew. But what he did give is the restored gospel. But for me it is the preparatory gospel. The fulness is yet to come.

I do not lie to anyone in the church but I sure don't tell them everything I believe. We each have to resolve with God what are His messages.

Not sure if this helps.

I like that you are so honest and up front about how you feel. I suggest that any opportunity to directly approach God with good questions, is an opportunity to commune with Deity. Can I also suggest that the knowledge that there is a living prophet on the earth is quite valuable. To have a trustworthy reliable source of general inspiration outside of your own head to help you reset your own occasionally wrong thinking is vital. As a people and for the road that most of us will travel, it is a vital witness to have.

Can I tell you that I know we have a living prophet on the earth today. He is a humble, good man and a true servant of God. That is a knowledge that you too can have, if you would ask humbly and as OI suggested, study it out.

Better landmarks than that you will not find in this life. Oh, and repenting is also a really good idea first.

I would say just be honest in your interviews and let the missionaries and whoever else might be involved decide whether or not to allow you to be baptized. Any time you enter a relationship, you got to take the other person's feelings into account. If the church doesn't accept you, then there is nothing you can do except wait and try to meet the requirements at a later time.

TheLion wrote:I suppose I'm looking for some anonymous input on a quandary I am facing. I want to be baptized into the LDS church but in truth I can't answer the interview questions in a way that most people would associate with proper LDS answers. I met with a former bishop that my wife and I have befriended and asked him, but he was pretty skilled at dodging whether or not I should proceed. His response was to pray on it some more. What I have found to be the answer to everything, which is fine however it can lead to a case of paralysis by analysis. I have prayed and my feeling is that I should join LDS.

My wife and I have been going to the local ward since just after the last election, so almost a year. Great church and people, but I'm not on board with some of the stuff within the church. I think the BoM is great and is parallel to the Bible so I'm good with it. I think the church does a great job of serving peoples quest towards improving their relationship and understanding of God. I could go on a lot more but I'm going to instead talk about where I am at and why I think the missionaries would end up referring me to the current bishop.

I think it's possible Joseph Smith was a prophet, don't have feelings one way or the other and frankly don't care much if he was or wasn't.

I think that the BoM likely isn't literal, but once again don't care. It echoes the Bible and I'm good with it, and think it has a lot to offer.

I really don't care for the D&C and think people spend far too much time focusing on them instead of the BoM and the Bible. I know the D&C is billed as continuing revelation but I'm not sold on that. I see this as a case of focusing on mans words instead of the word of God and Jesus.

I'm not convinced in any way shape or form that any of the Presidents of the church are prophets, in fact I don't believe them to be...However, this doesn't change the fact that they are doing good work and overseeing a church that is doing great work and helping people be much better people.

I'm being rather short with my thoughts, this is a message board after all, but I think my general thinking is made clear. Even with all of that I want to be baptized in LDS. I think it's the best church for me and my family and I can learn a lot from it and become a far better person than I am now. We went to nearly every church in our area and none stuck with me like LDS has, I just don't fully buy in on some major issues I suppose. I'm capable of not talking about them to church members, and honestly I'm intent on studying and following the BoM and the Bible. The rest doesn't matter as much in terms of salvation and finding God. It's man made, and prone to mistakes, I'm good with following what came form God and Jesus more directly. Which is what we are suppose to do anyways.

Input? PM's are appreciated as well if you don't want to offer something publicly.

The main advice I'd give you is to be honest. The relationship you need to worry about is between you and God, not you and the missionaries, even if some part of you believes the missionaries are on God's errand.

The second point I'll make is regarding faith. I really struggle with wanting to "know" everything. There is a lot when it comes to God, scripture and religion that just isn't knowable right now, so it's left to us to believe in what we don't know. If you feel a strong desire to join the LDS church and you believe that desire comes from God, then I would try and put faith in the principles you struggle with and leave it to God to confirm their truth or error at a later time.

Thank you for the responses all, I actually feel quite better about my beliefs/opinions/feelings now. They remain static or they may change to be more in line with LDS, but either way I recognize the church as being a great church that we want our family to be members of moving forward.

TheLion wrote:I suppose I'm looking for some anonymous input on a quandary I am facing. I want to be baptized into the LDS church but in truth I can't answer the interview questions in a way that most people would associate with proper LDS answers. I met with a former bishop that my wife and I have befriended and asked him, but he was pretty skilled at dodging whether or not I should proceed. His response was to pray on it some more. What I have found to be the answer to everything, which is fine however it can lead to a case of paralysis by analysis. I have prayed and my feeling is that I should join LDS.

My wife and I have been going to the local ward since just after the last election, so almost a year. Great church and people, but I'm not on board with some of the stuff within the church. I think the BoM is great and is parallel to the Bible so I'm good with it. I think the church does a great job of serving peoples quest towards improving their relationship and understanding of God. I could go on a lot more but I'm going to instead talk about where I am at and why I think the missionaries would end up referring me to the current bishop.

I think it's possible Joseph Smith was a prophet, don't have feelings one way or the other and frankly don't care much if he was or wasn't.

I think that the BoM likely isn't literal, but once again don't care. It echoes the Bible and I'm good with it, and think it has a lot to offer.

I really don't care for the D&C and think people spend far too much time focusing on them instead of the BoM and the Bible. I know the D&C is billed as continuing revelation but I'm not sold on that. I see this as a case of focusing on mans words instead of the word of God and Jesus.

I'm not convinced in any way shape or form that any of the Presidents of the church are prophets, in fact I don't believe them to be...However, this doesn't change the fact that they are doing good work and overseeing a church that is doing great work and helping people be much better people.

I'm being rather short with my thoughts, this is a message board after all, but I think my general thinking is made clear. Even with all of that I want to be baptized in LDS. I think it's the best church for me and my family and I can learn a lot from it and become a far better person than I am now. We went to nearly every church in our area and none stuck with me like LDS has, I just don't fully buy in on some major issues I suppose. I'm capable of not talking about them to church members, and honestly I'm intent on studying and following the BoM and the Bible. The rest doesn't matter as much in terms of salvation and finding God. It's man made, and prone to mistakes, I'm good with following what came form God and Jesus more directly. Which is what we are suppose to do anyways.

Input? PM's are appreciated as well if you don't want to offer something publicly.

Are you real? haha

If what you are saying is true, then you are a very thoughtful person and I think everything will turn out okay. I love people like you and I think the Lord does too! I have no idea what the real details of your situation are, but I would venture a guess that if you have a real desire to do what God wants, and you have repented and want to follow the Savior, then you should definitely be baptized.

Baptism is basically a solemn agreement with God that you will serve Him and keep His commandments. If you do that, then He can enlighten you more fully with His spirit aka teach you things in your mind and heart. It doesn't have to be much more than that.

If you are sincere in your desire to follow him everything will sort itself out. God will teach you and lead you. He will bring thoughts and ideas into your mind. If you are sincerely seeking you will be able to sense what is true and what isn't! If you are sincere, you need not worry about anything that you don't feel is inspired by God.

There are a few different scriptures outlining the qualifications that a person might need before he is baptized. Look for some and see if they match your feelings. Here is one from the Book of Mormon that is referenced a lot. You probably have already read it:

Its in Mosiah Chapter 18. Alma is about to baptize a congregation of people in a river and this is part of his speech:

8 And it came to pass that he said unto them: Behold, here are the waters of Mormon (for thus were they called) and now, as ye are adesirous to come into the fold of God, and to be called his people, and are willing to bear one another’s burdens, that they may be light;

9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as cwitnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the dfirst resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—

10 Now I say unto you, if this be the desire of your hearts, what have you against being baptized in the name of the Lord, as a witness before him that ye have entered into a covenant with him, that ye will serve him and keep his commandments, that he may pour out his Spirit more abundantly upon you?

If you are indeed a real person, and this is a real situation (you never know on these online forums), I am glad to know you and you have my respect!

hyloglyph, I kept my thoughts short because if I explain them in too much detail it can cloudy what they are, instead I wanted to post my base thoughts to get some input on them. They are indeed sincere, it took me a bit to get to this point. Yesterday, I finally had a moment of clarity, based off some ongoing email exchanges with the former bishop I mentioned (great guy). The moment of clarity was that I don't have to focus on all the details, instead focus on the core of what God said we need to do to return to him. This was a huge relief for me as focusing on all the details is frankly overwhelming and never ending. It's a bit more involved than that, but I'm trying to be succinct.

I can't even begin to tell you have much I have read, analyzed and tried to understand in the last year.

That was the moment where I was finally ready to truly be baptized. It was also the moment where some caution jumped into my mind as I am not going to lie when they ask their questions (I know what they are as I looked them up) and I won't be answering like they are likely accustomed. Somehow I suspect I'll be sent to the bishop of our ward for clarity on it all. Which I'm fine with, and if they decide to proceed with it or deny it I'm ready for either outcome. But it's good to go into that situation with some level of preparedness. Which I'm seeking from anonymous people over the Internet :))

TheLion wrote:hyloglyph, I kept my thoughts short because if I explain them in too much detail it can cloudy what they are, instead I wanted to post my base thoughts to get some input on them. They are indeed sincere, it took me a bit to get to this point. Yesterday, I finally had a moment of clarity, based off some ongoing email exchanges with the former bishop I mentioned (great guy). The moment of clarity was that I don't have to focus on all the details, instead focus on the core of what God said we need to do to return to him. This was a huge relief for me as focusing on all the details is frankly overwhelming and never ending. It's a bit more involved than that, but I'm trying to be succinct.

I can't even begin to tell you have much I have read, analyzed and tried to understand in the last year.

That was the moment where I was finally ready to truly be baptized. It was also the moment where some caution jumped into my mind as I am not going to lie when they ask their questions (I know what they are as I looked them up) and I won't be answering like they are likely accustomed. Somehow I suspect I'll be sent to the bishop of our ward for clarity on it all. Which I'm fine with, and if they decide to proceed with it or deny it I'm ready for either outcome. But it's good to go into that situation with some level of preparedness. Which I'm seeking from anonymous people over the Internet :))

I believe you!

While I can't speak for Him, I would think that the approach you are taking to the whole thing is just what the Lord would want. He wants us to think! I can only imagine all the angles you have had to consider and all the reading and researching you must have done. I have a lot of respect for that.

I think the former bishop you've been emailing has some good advice. Stick to the core of what you really believe God wants, and let the details come little by little as the Lord continues to guide you. That's my strategy too lol. You seem to be more thoughtful and discerning than the average person. I love people like that. It sounds like any ward in the church would be lucky to have you be a part of it!

Whatever happens I hope you keep posting here on the forum, I'm interested to here more of your perspective on things!

They will take you regardless of what you say in interviews.
They want stats, the church wants your tithing.
Do you know about the temple? Wearing garments for the rest of your life?
They will have you at the temple doing baptisms within 3 months.


Are you comfortable with adult men strangers alone in rooms with 12 year old Boys and girls asking them if they touch themselves?
Are you ready for years of being guilt tripped, told you aren't doing enough, you need to do more?

You need to read the thread, exodus from the church"
That said, we all need to be baptized.
I don't acknowledge authority anywhere outside of our church.
ask god, but only act on an answer. "I think"or "God doesn't need to answer, I already know" is a psychological moment, not an answer

is this a friend thing, or do you have a burning desire to join gods only true church.

these men demand to be called "the Lord's anointed" and you are expected to be as committed to them, as the church".
The church replaces god in many instances.

if you are looking for Jesus....

that said, I still go

It wasn't my former bishops idea he was actually focusing on details like crazy. We were debating the idea of eternal marriage and I was focusing on what Jesus said versus what LDS says. Fact of the matter is LDS have their idea on it and it's irrelevant to our relationship with God. That's when I had my moment of clarity. We need to focus on the big picture, what God says we need to do...not far less important issues like if we are married forever.

Aussie, I have zero interest in temple. Zero. I'm interested in my and my families relationship with God. I researched temple and am less interested in it afterwards. I can't speak on it much as I have never been and likely never will be...

As for the other stuff, not sure what your angle is? All groups have oddities and focusing on those don't allow us to appreciate excellence where it exists. There is plenty of excellence in LDS to balance out its other areas from what I can tell.

On my cell until Monday. So my posts might be wonky.

TheLion wrote: I have zero interest in temple. Zero.

I also do not desire the Temple. All the Temple can do can be done where you are sitting right now. The Temple is symbolic of spiritual events. But you desire baptism just like I did.

You are not the first to have these feelings. I was not the first.

TheLion wrote:Aussie, I have zero interest in temple. Zero. I'm interested in my and my families relationship with God. I researched temple and am less interested in it afterwards. I can't speak on it much as I have never been and likely never will be...

As for the other stuff, not sure what your angle is? All groups have oddities and focusing on those don't allow us to appreciate excellence where it exists. There is plenty of excellence in LDS to balance out its other areas from what I can tell.

On my cell until Monday. So my posts might be wonky.

Ta bro.
Be sure not to confuse oddities with an all encompassing way of life

There is LDS doctrine. LDS culture, and LDS religion.

All different, but you are expected to buy into all 3

The Lion,

IMO, it sounds like you are going into this thing with your eyes wide open. I mean that in a good way. My beliefs are very similar to yours. And, like you, I believe God wants me to be in the LDS Church.

If you have a thick skin, such that the passive aggressive tactics of the most "pious" members won't drive you nuts (and I think there really aren't THAT man of them, it just seems like it sometimes), then go for it. You seem to have pretty healthy expectations about the whole thing.

Are you in Utah? That makes a difference.

Aussie and jbalm, thanks for the added information. I am well aware of group think and expectations of groups to want all members to go all in. I do not live in Utah, but even if I did it wouldn't matter. For the vast majority of my life I have lived in very liberal areas and opinions/emotions are flung around like irrefutable facts and anyone that doesn't fully agree and state it at the top of their lungs is some form of an "ist." I have always found my own answers and could care less if closed minded people are bothered by me. Especially, people that do nothing more than parrot information. People that do research themselves, thus finding their own answers, and I have always gotten along well. Even if we disagree. It's the closed minded people with the least invested that are threatened of others, perhaps because don't want to admit their laziness in a quest for knowledge.

The church like any group is multifaceted, some will buy into all aspects without due diligence. They however are easy to spot, as are the ones that are thinkers by their tact in avoiding certain conversations.

My wife and are are both on the same plane, I am fortunate to have a very smart and wise partner. We have already spoken with primary teachers and do so often to learn what they will be teaching. If it's something we don't want our 4 & 5 year olds exposed to yet we withhold them from primary that lesson under the guise of other commitments. When we feel they are ready is when they will be exposed to that, and only after some preparation by us so it is more understandable to them and less emotionally impactful. For example, they talked about the crucifixion. A very violent act, yet significant. We felt that teaching that to a four year old was a bit much. So we taught it in a way that was less violent and guilt inducing. We have found churches love teaching guilt. Which is a shame, instead it should be focused soley on love. The love Jesus had for us to do that, instead of focusing on us being sinners so he had to sacrifice himself. We followed it up with examples of no one being perfect, yet people still love us and want and do what is best for us with love. Allowing us to learn and grow. A simple yet illustrative example. I'd go into more detail on our lesson but I dislike typing much on my smart phone.

Thanks for all thoughts, they have been received as generous and well intentioned.

You already know and understand so much! With her shortcomings, the LDS Church is still one of the best places to be. I have found no other church who has as much to offer by way of teaching truth. Even while under condemnation, she has so very much to offer; much more so than other institutions of religion. I would offer that you are being drawn to her not only for what she has to offer you and your family; but also because God wants you in this particular place to further His purposes through your efforts.

TheLion wrote:Aussie and jbalm, thanks for the added information. I am well aware of group think and expectations of groups to want all members to go all in. I do not live in Utah, but even if I did it wouldn't matter. For the vast majority of my life I have lived in very liberal areas and opinions/emotions are flung around like irrefutable facts and anyone that doesn't fully agree and state it at the top of their lungs is some form of an "ist." I have always found my own answers and could care less if closed minded people are bothered by me. Especially, people that do nothing more than parrot information. People that do research themselves, thus finding their own answers, and I have always gotten along well. Even if we disagree. It's the closed minded people with the least invested that are threatened of others, perhaps because don't want to admit their laziness in a quest for knowledge.

The church like any group is multifaceted, some will buy into all aspects without due diligence. They however are easy to spot, as are the ones that are thinkers by their tact in avoiding certain conversations.

My wife and are are both on the same plane, I am fortunate to have a very smart and wise partner. We have already spoken with primary teachers and do so often to learn what they will be teaching. If it's something we don't want our 4 & 5 year olds exposed to yet we withhold them from primary that lesson under the guise of other commitments. When we feel they are ready is when they will be exposed to that, and only after some preparation by us so it is more understandable to them and less emotionally impactful. For example, they talked about the crucifixion. A very violent act, yet significant. We felt that teaching that to a four year old was a bit much. So we taught it in a way that was less violent and guilt inducing. We have found churches love teaching guilt. Which is a shame, instead it should be focused soley on love. The love Jesus had for us to do that, instead of focusing on us being sinners so he had to sacrifice himself. We followed it up with examples of no one being perfect, yet people still love us and want and do what is best for us with love. Allowing us to learn and grow. A simple yet illustrative example. I'd go into more detail on our lesson but I dislike typing much on my smart phone.

Thanks for all thoughts, they have been received as generous and well intentioned.

There is another side to this coin. While I agree your honesty and integrity is good, you have yet to have a conversion experience. This forum has it's many detractors that live on the fringe of testimony and have somehow managed thus far to keep one foot in the church and one foot out. Frankly, you don't need to be a member of the LDS church to maintain that particular mentality.

However, the significant importance of a conversion experience is being undersold thus far. It is vital to know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ. It is vital to know that revelation through the gift of the Holy Ghost can teach you the truth of all things. It is vital to know that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church and guides it through his prophets and apostles.

You have listed many things that you are uncomfortable with simply because they appear to not fit your paradigm of religion when really it comes down to selecting God's will over yours. Do you not wonder if hanging on a cross fit Christ's paradigm or was it really as he states submitting his will to the Fathers completely because who could ever have a will to suffer as he did just because it seemed like the thing to do on a Friday night. Certain foundational testimonies must be in place if you are to have the strength to submit your will to God's as the two do differ dramatically. While you will not be challenged to the degree our Savior was, you will be tried, you will be measured and without the strength of commitment to Jesus Christ and the ability to recognize what is his church and it's teachings and what is not you will be found wanting.

Some attitude's concerning the church just wanting numbers and your tithing are false and misrepresented. If you can side with that perspective and feel at all the same then please do yourself a favor and wait. Baptism is a symbol of commitment to Jesus Christ and the building up of his kingdom. It is a hope of being pure, and of a willingness to do whatsoever he will ask of you in the process of your return to reside in his presence. When you make that commitment, you have given your word to sustain Him and His and you are held accountable to that commitment. The person you are describing with your current set of misgivings and clear lack of certain foundational understandings does not need the church....yet. Please take the time to ask the questions of the Lord that need to be answered for your complete success as a supportive member of the church. There is joy in the gospel. There is a wonderful sense of unity and love among the saints that are truly converted that you will miss in some degree if you cannot see what brings them such joy. If you find yourself not convinced of their precious testimonies of the beauty of the temple and the comfort of being sealed together as a family then you will be doing yourself and your family a disservice.

As the father, you represent the single stat that the church has ever found that determined the successful continued activity of a family in the church. Nothing else was as dependable a gauge of continued activity in the church as to whether the father was an active priesthood holder magnifying his callings and sustaining the church. The responsibility you bear is greater, I think than you realize. However, as a man of integrity it is my hope that you will consider, not just your response to the gospel of Jesus Christ but also how your response will influence those you hold most dear. Don't give up asking the questions. If you are sincere, meaning that if you promise the Lord that you will do whatsoever he requires of you, if he sees that you are committed to that course he will provide sufficient answers that you need not live with one foot in the church and one foot out of the church. Instead you can jump in with both feet - and that will make all of the difference.

brlenox wrote:However, the significant importance of a conversion experience is being undersold thus far. It is vital to know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ. It is vital to know that revelation through the gift of the Holy Ghost can teach you the truth of all things. It is vital to know that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church and guides it through his prophets and apostles.

I would add that more important than being converted to a church, is to be converted to Christ. This is His church. However, I find it is more helpful to say it that way, than to say the church is "true." To me, to say "I know the church is true," doesn't mean anything concrete. Because that might mean does everything the church does is true? And though I hear that phrase during every testimony meeting, I think those words shift the focus from Christ to an organization. I think it is easier to say that we are His church. We are His people, the same way the Nephites, Jaredites and even the Children of Israel were His people. In the scriptures, we can find instances of His people wandering and dwindling in unbelief, but that never changed their status of being His people. In knowing that this is His church, the focus is on Christ where it should be.

Be converted to Christ. Come unto Him and follow Him. If He asks you to be baptized, then be baptized. If you follow Him, you will never go wrong.

brlenox wrote:

TheLion wrote:Aussie and jbalm, thanks for the added information. I am well aware of group think and expectations of groups to want all members to go all in. I do not live in Utah, but even if I did it wouldn't matter. For the vast majority of my life I have lived in very liberal areas and opinions/emotions are flung around like irrefutable facts and anyone that doesn't fully agree and state it at the top of their lungs is some form of an "ist." I have always found my own answers and could care less if closed minded people are bothered by me. Especially, people that do nothing more than parrot information. People that do research themselves, thus finding their own answers, and I have always gotten along well. Even if we disagree. It's the closed minded people with the least invested that are threatened of others, perhaps because don't want to admit their laziness in a quest for knowledge.

The church like any group is multifaceted, some will buy into all aspects without due diligence. They however are easy to spot, as are the ones that are thinkers by their tact in avoiding certain conversations.

My wife and are are both on the same plane, I am fortunate to have a very smart and wise partner. We have already spoken with primary teachers and do so often to learn what they will be teaching. If it's something we don't want our 4 & 5 year olds exposed to yet we withhold them from primary that lesson under the guise of other commitments. When we feel they are ready is when they will be exposed to that, and only after some preparation by us so it is more understandable to them and less emotionally impactful. For example, they talked about the crucifixion. A very violent act, yet significant. We felt that teaching that to a four year old was a bit much. So we taught it in a way that was less violent and guilt inducing. We have found churches love teaching guilt. Which is a shame, instead it should be focused soley on love. The love Jesus had for us to do that, instead of focusing on us being sinners so he had to sacrifice himself. We followed it up with examples of no one being perfect, yet people still love us and want and do what is best for us with love. Allowing us to learn and grow. A simple yet illustrative example. I'd go into more detail on our lesson but I dislike typing much on my smart phone.

Thanks for all thoughts, they have been received as generous and well intentioned.

There is another side to this coin. While I agree your honesty and integrity is good, you have yet to have a conversion experience. This forum has it's many detractors that live on the fringe of testimony and have somehow managed thus far to keep one foot in the church and one foot out. Frankly, you don't need to be a member of the LDS church to maintain that particular mentality.

However, the significant importance of a conversion experience is being undersold thus far. It is vital to know that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the true church of Jesus Christ. It is vital to know that revelation through the gift of the Holy Ghost can teach you the truth of all things. It is vital to know that Jesus Christ stands at the head of this church and guides it through his prophets and apostles.

You have listed many things that you are uncomfortable with simply because they appear to not fit your paradigm of religion when really it comes down to selecting God's will over yours. Do you not wonder if hanging on a cross fit Christ's paradigm or was it really as he states submitting his will to the Fathers completely because who could ever have a will to suffer as he did just because it seemed like the thing to do on a Friday night. Certain foundational testimonies must be in place if you are to have the strength to submit your will to God's as the two do differ dramatically. While you will not be challenged to the degree our Savior was, you will be tried, you will be measured and without the strength of commitment to Jesus Christ and the ability to recognize what is his church and it's teachings and what is not you will be found wanting.

Some attitude's concerning the church just wanting numbers and your tithing are false and misrepresented. If you can side with that perspective and feel at all the same then please do yourself a favor and wait. Baptism is a symbol of commitment to Jesus Christ and the building up of his kingdom. It is a hope of being pure, and of a willingness to do whatsoever he will ask of you in the process of your return to reside in his presence. When you make that commitment, you have given your word to sustain Him and His and you are held accountable to that commitment. The person you are describing with your current set of misgivings and clear lack of certain foundational understandings does not need the church....yet. Please take the time to ask the questions of the Lord that need to be answered for your complete success as a supportive member of the church. There is joy in the gospel. There is a wonderful sense of unity and love among the saints that are truly converted that you will miss in some degree if you cannot see what brings them such joy. If you find yourself not convinced of their precious testimonies of the beauty of the temple and the comfort of being sealed together as a family then you will be doing yourself and your family a disservice.

As the father, you represent the single stat that the church has ever found that determined the successful continued activity of a family in the church. Nothing else was as dependable a gauge of continued activity in the church as to whether the father was an active priesthood holder magnifying his callings and sustaining the church. The responsibility you bear is greater, I think than you realize. However, as a man of integrity it is my hope that you will consider, not just your response to the gospel of Jesus Christ but also how your response will influence those you hold most dear. Don't give up asking the questions. If you are sincere, meaning that if you promise the Lord that you will do whatsoever he requires of you, if he sees that you are committed to that course he will provide sufficient answers that you need not live with one foot in the church and one foot out of the church. Instead you can jump in with both feet - and that will make all of the difference.

The Lion,

This is what I was talking about. If you can deal with this kind of stuff without getting really annoyed, you'll be fine.

And, not being in Utah will be good. As far as Mormons are concerned, the fewer there are, the better they treat each other.

Best of luck.

TheLion, only join the Church if you feel that that is what God wants you to do. There are some super-cynical LDS that frequent the Forum here. Don't be swayed one way or the other; find out for yourself. Being a member of the LDS church has been a great blessing to me my entire life and has been a source of great comfort and support through all life's difficulties. I am a much better person than I would have been otherwise. I am eternally grateful for my membership in the LDS Church. I have waded through a lot of anti-Mormom stuff in my life and opposition from family members. But this has prompted me to find the answers to my questions and to know for myself the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am not a blind follower of the faith, rather I am one who has studied and put the gospel principles to the test. For me, it is the only way to live.

I just read this comment from Elder Hales. IT was the last paragraph of the first talk in General Conference. I think it answers your question:
"My brothers and sisters, I bear my special witness that the Lord Jesus Christ lives and stands at the head of this Church. This is His general conference. I promise you in His name that if you pray with a sincere desire to hear your Heavenly Father’s voice in the messages of this conference, you will discover that He has spoken to you to help you, to strengthen you, and to lead you home into His presence. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen."

Here is the link: http://www.lds.org/general-conference/s ... 0?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;