LDS Freedom Forum

"A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power…" (TPJS p. 217)

Interesting. We are all pressing forward along our path (iron rod). Eventually we die. I think many people believe that the veil parts upon death and we behold His face. I personally believe we don't. Not until we have proven ourselves true and faithful in all things. Joseph Smith seems to imply the same, if I understand him correctly. Many will still be pressing forward along the same path. Death is but a door. And in the world to come, we may yet be deceived. What kind of wonders lie beyond this door? That was a rhetorical question, btw. Just another reason to gorge yourself on the best books and feast upon the words of Christ. Food for thought.

I concur with your thoughts. I would like to take another route on this and talk about our kindred dead in the world of spirits.
They are depending on us to cast off all the false traditions and GUNK that they have passed down from generations down to us. As we eliminate the baggage they pass down, I believe it lightens them, and allows them to choose the higher knowledge, and a lesser inclination to be deceived. I believe strongly that they are depending on us to rend the veil of unbelief which many of them failed to do. This is our dispensation to behold the Savior. As we are exalted, they also may choose to be exalted and learn to cast off the same traditions and gunk we are casting off ourselves.
I recently had a marvelous experience with what I just shared concerning my ancestors who are looking on me to help them elevate. Cool stuff! We can be saviors on Mount Zion for our kindred dead!

I believe that we all see Jesus after we die but that we won't necessarily recognize Him. I don't think the veil is lifted upon death. Alma said that we are all taken home to the God who gave us life. But he doesn't say whether or not we recognize Him when we see Him.

Called to Serve wrote:I believe that we all see Jesus after we die but that we won't necessarily recognize Him. I don't think the veil is lifted upon death. Alma said that we are all taken home to the God who gave us life. But he doesn't say whether or not we recognize Him when we see Him.

Hadn't thought of that!

At what part of the endowment do we die? ;)

Called to Serve wrote: Alma said that we are all taken home to the God who gave us life.

that leaves the door open to be taken to see someone other than Christ.

Yeah, I know. Leaves it WIDE open. But I assume it is Christ. I'd love to find out for sure, though, errr . . . without dying that is.

clarkkent14 wrote:

Called to Serve wrote:I believe that we all see Jesus after we die but that we won't necessarily recognize Him. I don't think the veil is lifted upon death. Alma said that we are all taken home to the God who gave us life. But he doesn't say whether or not we recognize Him when we see Him.

Hadn't thought of that!

At what part of the endowment do we die? ;)

Yes that is exactly the point isn't it .We don't "die' in the endowment. The endowment is is to open us to the possibilities of what should be achieved in this life not the life to come

coachmarc wrote:"A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power…" (TPJS p. 217)

Interesting. We are all pressing forward along our path (iron rod). Eventually we die. I think many people believe that the veil parts upon death and we behold His face. I personally believe we don't. Not until we have proven ourselves true and faithful in all things. Joseph Smith seems to imply the same, if I understand him correctly. Many will still be pressing forward along the same path. Death is but a door. And in the world to come, we may yet be deceived. What kind of wonders lie beyond this door? That was a rhetorical question, btw. Just another reason to gorge yourself on the best books and feast upon the words of Christ. Food for thought.

+1 ;)

Thus why,

"130:18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.

19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

I expect that people will still have to learn to take the spirit as their guide. I expect that people will be peddling their wild ideas on that side just like this side. If the dead have to accept their ordinances and accept the gospel, there must be alternatives.

I disagree with the whole idea that people can be led astray after this life. Once we leave Mortality (via death) our "test" in done.

The spirits of all men, as soon as they depart from this mortal body, whether they are good or evil, we are told in the Book of Mormon, are taken home to that God who gave them life, where there is a separation, a partial judgment, and the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they expand in wisdom, where they have respite from all their troubles, and where care and sorrow do not annoy. The wicked, on the contrary, have no part nor portion in the Spirit of the Lord, and they are cast into outer darkness, being led captive, because of their own iniquity, by the evil one. And in this space between death and the resurrection of the body, the two classes of souls remain in happiness or in misery, until the time which is appointed of God that the dead shall come forth and be reunited both spirit and body, and be brought to stand before God, and be judged according to their works. (Gospel Doctrine, 6th ed., p. 448.)

If we are righteous then we will be received into Spirit paradise...if we are evil we will be received into Spirit prison. The veil may not be fully lifted when we die but I believe it maybe partially lifted.

The traditional view of the plan of salvation drawn on Sunday school boards throughout the church is a huge simplification of what really lies beyond the veil. If one really wants to understand more, reading the scriptures and discarding that image will be very helpful.

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 130)

What if someone here receives angels, visions and even converses with the Lord as did the Brother of Jared? Will they be better off than someone who served faithfully in the church, but never had any of those things? Whose knowledge is greater, the person who has gazed into heaven for five minutes, or the person who has never seen a vision, an angel or had any connection beyond the veil?
I know many people in the church who strived diligently to live faithfully and yet never saw angels, or gazed into heaven. Will their reward be different from someone who did receive these things?

What if we now look at Alma 34.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. (Alma, Chapter 34)

If we will have a greater advantage in the next world if we have greater knowledge, and in the next world no labor can be performed, can we really expect the same reward as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Or Joseph Smith? What if we never attained to what they knew?

8. It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they, in like manner, offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him.

Would or could God be so unmerciful as to allow people with limited knowledge to inherit a lesser glory, even though they did their best? So how can we be heirs with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if we have not done what they have done? The answer lies in gaining a fuller or more complete understanding of who we are, where we came from and where we are going. Alma 13 does a great job of explaining this, as does Abraham 3. Of course, the scriptures above should shed some good light on these questions.

read about many, many peoples NDE's there is some amazing stuff in there.

many of them follow the same process whether LDS or not. Athiests encounter Jesus while dead, come back to life miraculously, are converted and serve Christ for the rest of their days.

MUST WATCH



Its not about 'the knowledge' you recieve, it's all about HIM.

I agree Frederick. The plan of salvation drawing that we routinely use is flawed. It's drawn in a linear fashion relative to final judgment. And due to that facet we misunderstand how to get to the Celestial kingdom.

Getting to the celestial kingdom requires manifestations of the spirit while in the flesh in order to bear celestial glory.

D&C 76:113-118 wrote: This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

Also relating to NDEs ... many report finding relatives, some see Christ, some find darkness. The veil isn't completely removed at death. As was said you take with you only the principle of intelligence that you have at the point that you die. You are the same spirit you were in this life (Alma 34:34). Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, but only at final judgment. There is an end, but the process doesn't play out the way we often think due to the simplified plan of salvation drawing.

It might be fruitful to consider a new diagram that shows how the world of spirits (the spirit world) is actually here on this earth (an undisputed Mormon doctrine). The souls unborn and previously departed are all around us. One might ask... what the heck are they all doing right now and who is in the room with me right now? If you look at it that way it's easier to see how death isn't on the right side of the planet earth separating you from judgment and God.

superdan wrote:I agree Frederick. The plan of salvation drawing that we routinely use is flawed. It's drawn in a linear fashion relative to final judgment. And due to that facet we misunderstand how to get to the Celestial kingdom.

Getting to the celestial kingdom requires manifestations of the spirit while in the flesh in order to bear celestial glory.

D&C 76:113-118 wrote: This is the end of the vision which we saw, which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.
But great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion; Which he commanded us we should not write while we were yet in the Spirit, and are not lawful for man to utter; Neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him, and purify themselves before him; To whom he grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; That through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.

Also relating to NDEs ... many report finding relatives, some see Christ, some find darkness. The veil isn't completely removed at death. As was said you take with you only the principle of intelligence that you have at the point that you die. You are the same spirit you were in this life (Alma 34:34). Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ, but only at final judgment. There is an end, but the process doesn't play out the way we often think due to the simplified plan of salvation drawing.

It might be fruitful to consider a new diagram that shows how the world of spirits (the spirit world) is actually here on this earth (an undisputed Mormon doctrine). The souls unborn and previously departed are all around us. One might ask... what the heck are they all doing right now and who is in the room with me right now? If you look at it that way it's easier to see how death isn't on the right side of the planet earth separating you from judgment and God.

I don't believe that we have contact with family/ spirits who have entered 'rest' or 'paradise' etc. I believe that the spirits here on earth are the same that were cast down with the devil, or confused or disembodied spirits that haven't moved on. I know a person who has clinically died, went somewhere different (not on this earth) and there saw family they knew, came back to life and the spirits weren't on this earth. they also lived in a house with another family member that believed her dead husband kept visiting her, this person I knew believed at first it was the dead husband but after a while grew to know it wasn't, but rather a dark spirit impersonating the dead husband. she promptly moved out never to live with her again.

drjme wrote:I don't believe that we have contact with family/ spirits who have entered 'rest' or 'paradise' etc. I believe that the spirits here on earth are the same that were cast down with the devil, or confused or disembodied spirits that haven't moved on. I know a person who has clinically died, went somewhere different (not on this earth) and there saw family they knew, came back to life and the spirits weren't on this earth. they also lived in a house with another family member that believed her dead husband kept visiting her, this person I knew believed at first it was the dead husband but after a while grew to know it wasn't, but rather a dark spirit impersonating the dead husband. she promptly moved out never to live with her again.

I've read and listen to accounts of many people who report contact with those who have entered paradise. E.g. JSH describes Joseph interacting with Moroni. Many spiritually gifted persons report seeing and interacting with angels and/or beings of light. Many receive visits in their dreams. Just because they are located in the same geographical area doesn't mean that they occupy the same spectrum of the veil. If we're in the presence of the dark ones why not the light ones? I mean this picture from the Simpsons is proof positive that I'm right... Right? ( j/k ;) )



As for evil or unclean spirits impersonating pure ones, I definitely believe that's true. Perhaps that why Parley P. Pratt indicated Joseph was most interested with the topic of discerning spirits.

superdan wrote:

drjme wrote:I don't believe that we have contact with family/ spirits who have entered 'rest' or 'paradise' etc. I believe that the spirits here on earth are the same that were cast down with the devil, or confused or disembodied spirits that haven't moved on. I know a person who has clinically died, went somewhere different (not on this earth) and there saw family they knew, came back to life and the spirits weren't on this earth. they also lived in a house with another family member that believed her dead husband kept visiting her, this person I knew believed at first it was the dead husband but after a while grew to know it wasn't, but rather a dark spirit impersonating the dead husband. she promptly moved out never to live with her again.

I've read and listen to accounts of many people who report contact with those who have entered paradise. E.g. JSH describes Joseph interacting with Moroni. Many spiritually gifted persons report seeing and interacting with angels and/or beings of light. Many receive visits in their dreams. Just because they are located in the same geographical area doesn't mean that they occupy the same spectrum of the veil. If we're in the presence of the dark ones why not the light ones? I mean this picture from the Simpsons is proof positive that I'm right... Right? ( j/k ;) )



As for evil or unclean spirits impersonating pure ones, I definitely believe that's true. Perhaps that why Parley P. Pratt indicated Joseph was most interested with the topic of discerning spirits.

Yes it is different to encounter spirits 'in vision', as opposed to in 'reality'. 99% of spirits I have encountered in reality are dark or impersonators. the ONLY good (as in pure, truth, powerful) I have encountered in the open, has been the HOLY SPIRIT, no one I knew or know, no family or long lost relative. no grandmas or grandpas.

to pass over to their side is different to them coming here to visit. I have read many many accounts and know of people who have been deceived by spirits, these dark spirits impersonating the livings deceased loved ones, these spirits being absolutely believable in their impersonations. How? they've been here the whole time watching them.

Frederick wrote:The traditional view of the plan of salvation drawn on Sunday school boards throughout the church is a huge simplification of what really lies beyond the veil. If one really wants to understand more, reading the scriptures and discarding that image will be very helpful.

18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 130)

What if someone here receives angels, visions and even converses with the Lord as did the Brother of Jared? Will they be better off than someone who served faithfully in the church, but never had any of those things? Whose knowledge is greater, the person who has gazed into heaven for five minutes, or the person who has never seen a vision, an angel or had any connection beyond the veil?
I know many people in the church who strived diligently to live faithfully and yet never saw angels, or gazed into heaven. Will their reward be different from someone who did receive these things?

What if we now look at Alma 34.

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. (Alma, Chapter 34)

If we will have a greater advantage in the next world if we have greater knowledge, and in the next world no labor can be performed, can we really expect the same reward as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Or Joseph Smith? What if we never attained to what they knew?

8. It is in vain for persons to fancy to themselves that they are heirs with those, or can be heirs with them, who have offered their all in sacrifice, and by this means obtained faith in God and favor with him so as to obtain eternal life, unless they, in like manner, offer unto him the same sacrifice, and through that offering obtain the knowledge that they are accepted of him.

Would or could God be so unmerciful as to allow people with limited knowledge to inherit a lesser glory, even though they did their best? So how can we be heirs with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if we have not done what they have done? The answer lies in gaining a fuller or more complete understanding of who we are, where we came from and where we are going. Alma 13 does a great job of explaining this, as does Abraham 3. Of course, the scriptures above should shed some good light on these questions.

I believe what you are saying is true. There is an additional aspect to it I would like to add.

We need to remember that God wants to be one with us. There really are only two situations: oneness and separation. Those who are one are together with each other like a family. Those who are separate and like individuals living outside a family unit.

It is like the sun, the moon, and the stars. The sun would represent a group of individuals united in purpose. Because they are united, the light they emit is brighter by far than the moon and all the stars. Those who are not part of the sun would be individual stars or moons, differing from each other in glory according to their individual glory.

Within the "one" would be individuals of all different levels of glory. They may have the brightness of the faintest star or they may be bright as the full moon or even brighter. But their glory doesn't matter because they are part of the "one."

Each individual who would sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or the Savior Himself, will have to endure all that they endured, but they won't necessarily have to endure it on the same level of intensity. Those who are weaker will endure lesser trials and those who are stronger will endure more difficult trials. The point is, each person's trials will be equal in difficulty to each other according to their ability to endure. The flabby man will only be asked to run a mile where the athlete will be asked to run 20. Jesus will be asked to run a million miles.

If this were not true, none of us would have any hope of returning to live with our Savior after this life. None of us can endure what He endured. Instead He only asks us to endure the portion we can, which will never be as great as what He endured, and then we will qualify to become part of the "one" and can be part of our heavenly family once again.

It's for this reason that I believe that one of the greatest things we can do on this earth is to learn not to judge. When we judge each other, we separate ourselves from them. When we accept others exactly as they are, we unite with them. Then, instead of floating about space as a star or a moon, we join the great community within the sun.

coachmarc wrote:... Interesting. We are all pressing forward along our path (iron rod). Eventually we die. I think many people believe that the veil parts upon death and we behold His face. I personally believe we don't. Not until we have proven ourselves true and faithful in all things. Joseph Smith seems to imply the same, if I understand him correctly. Many will still be pressing forward along the same path. Death is but a door. And in the world to come, we may yet be deceived. ...

I agree the veil does not part automatically at death. At the final resurrection though, it appears that the wicked will stand before God to be judged of their works.

I think reincarnation is a distinct possibility.

Some refer to it as "multiple probations."

So...new veil.

coachmarc wrote:"A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power…" (TPJS p. 217)

Interesting. We are all pressing forward along our path (iron rod). Eventually we die. I think many people believe that the veil parts upon death and we behold His face. I personally believe we don't. Not until we have proven ourselves true and faithful in all things. Joseph Smith seems to imply the same, if I understand him correctly. Many will still be pressing forward along the same path. Death is but a door. And in the world to come, we may yet be deceived. What kind of wonders lie beyond this door? That was a rhetorical question, btw. Just another reason to gorge yourself on the best books and feast upon the words of Christ. Food for thought.

The righteous (full-use of the term) will not be deceived after death.
The wicked will. The missionaries will be there. They will have complete power over the evil spirits there.

drjme wrote:Its not about 'the knowledge' you recieve, it's all about HIM.

Knowledge OF HIM.

coachmarc wrote:What kind of wonders lie beyond this door?

I am going to find out right now as I lay upon my sword and fade into shadow.

Joseph said it would be a great work even beyond the grave for our exaltation.

93:49 What I say unto one I say unto all; pray always lest that wicked one have power in you, and remove you out of your place.

If Lucifer, being an angel of light in the presence of God, could fall because of his pride...I don't see any reason why we can't fall in the spirit world. Agency is an eternal principle.

I have had experiences where I have felt the presence of deceased ancestors and have discerned by the Spirit their true identities. I have always believed that they don't visit this planet, but actually live here on a different plane of existence (spiritual plane?).

I believe that our kindred dead help us out a lot more than we realize.