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Re: Deceived in the Spirit World?

Posted: October 10th, 2013, 6:24 pm
by TZONE
embryopocket wrote:If Lucifer, being an angel of light in the presence of God, could fall because of his pride...I don't see any reason why we can't fall in the spirit world. Agency is an eternal principle.

I have had experiences where I have felt the presence of deceased ancestors and have discerned by the Spirit their true identities. I have always believed that they don't visit this planet, but actually live here on a different plane of existence (spiritual plane?).

I believe that our kindred dead help us out a lot more than we realize.

:ymapplause:

Re: Deceived in the Spirit World?

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 6:52 pm
by JohnnyL
TZONE wrote:Joseph said it would be a great work even beyond the grave for our exaltation.
Correct. But that does not entail being deceived and overcome.

Even Enoch's Zion is terrestial, not celestial.

There is no deception of the righteous in the spirit world.

Unlike the righteous spirits of just men made perfect through overcoming evil through Jesus Christ in this life, Lucifer wasn't and didn't.

Re: Deceived in the Spirit World?

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 7:03 pm
by JohnnyL
embryopocket wrote:I have had experiences where I have felt the presence of deceased ancestors and have discerned by the Spirit their true identities. I have always believed that they don't visit this planet, but actually live here on a different plane of existence (spiritual plane?).
I believe that our kindred dead help us out a lot more than we realize.
Youth manual, Sunday School; Brigham Young adult manual, Sunday School: Brigham Young taught that the spirit world was right here, on this earth. Yes, deceased ancestors are here, too, and a few conference talks and Ensign articles have also shared that.

**
Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, (1997), 279–84

Chapter 38: The Spirit World

While speaking at the funeral of Elder Thomas Williams, President Brigham Young spoke of the spirit world as follows: “How frequently the question arises in the minds of the people—’I wish I knew where I was going!’ Can you find out? Well, you will go into the spirit world, where Brother Thomas now is. He has now entered upon a higher state of being, that is, his spirit has, than when in this body. ‘Why cannot I see him? Why cannot I converse with his spirit? I wish I could see my husband or my father and converse with him!’ It is not reasonable that you should, it is not right that you should; perhaps you would miss the very object of your pursuit if you had this privilege, and there would be the same trial of faith to exercise you, not so severe a path of affliction for you to walk in, not so great a battle to fight, nor so great a victory to win, and you would miss the very object you are in pursuit of. It is right just as it is, that this veil should be closed down; that we do not see God, that we do not see angels, that we do not converse with them except through strict obedience to his requirements, and faith in Jesus Christ (DNSW, 28 July 1874, 1).

Teachings of Brigham Young

When you lay down this tabernacle, where are you going? Into the spiritual world (DBY, 376).

The wicked spirits that leave here and go into the spirit world, are they wicked there? Yes (DNW, 27 Aug. 1856, 3).

When the spirits leave their bodies, … they are prepared then to see, hear and understand spiritual things. … Can you see spirits in this room? No. Suppose the Lord should touch your eyes that you might see, could you then see the spirits? Yes, as plainly as you now see bodies, as did the servant of [Elisha] [see 2 Kings 6:16–17]. If the Lord would permit it, and it was his will that it should be done, you could see the spirits that have departed from this world, as plainly as you now see bodies with your natural eyes (DBY, 376–77).

**
Father Smith [Joseph Smith Sr.] and Carlos [Smith] and Brother [Edward] Partridge, yes, and every other good Saint, are just as busy in the spirit world as you and I are here. They can see us, but we cannot see them unless our eyes were opened. What are they doing there? They are preaching, preaching all the time, and preparing the way for us to hasten our work in building temples here and elsewhere (DBY, 378).

Every faithful man’s labor will continue as long as the labor of Jesus, until all things are redeemed that can be redeemed, and presented to the Father. There is a great work before us (DBY, 378).

The spirits that dwell in these tabernacles on this earth, when they leave them go directly into this world of spirits. What! A congregated mass of inhabitants there in spirit, mingling with each other, as they do here? Yes, brethren, they are there together, and if they associate together, and collect together, in clans and in societies as they do here, it is their privilege. No doubt they yet, more or less, see, hear, converse and have to do with each other, both good and bad. If the Elders of Israel in these latter times go and preach to the spirits in prison, they associate with them, precisely as our Elders associate with the wicked in the flesh, when they go to preach to them (DBY, 378).

**

The spirit world is an active place where growth and progression are possible.

When you are in the spirit world, everything there will appear as natural as things now do. Spirits will be familiar with spirits in the spirit world—will converse, behold, and exercise every variety of communication with one another as familiarly and naturally as while here in tabernacles. There, as here, all things will be natural, and you will understand them as you now understand natural things. You will there see that those spirits we are speaking of are active; they sleep not. And you will learn that they are striving with all their might—laboring and toiling diligently as any individual would to accomplish an act in this world (DBY, 380).

Spirits are just as familiar with spirits as bodies are with bodies, though spirits are composed of matter so refined as not to be tangible to this coarser organization. They walk, converse, and have their meetings; and the spirits of good men like Joseph and the Elders, who have left this Church on earth for a season to operate in another sphere, are rallying all their powers and going from place to place preaching the Gospel, and Joseph is directing them, saying, go ahead, my brethren, and if they hedge up your way, walk up and command them to disperse. You have the Priesthood and can disperse them, but if any of them wish to hear the Gospel, preach to them (DBY, 379).

I can say with regard to parting with our friends, and going ourselves, that I have been near enough to understand eternity so that I have had to exercise a great deal more faith to desire to live than I ever exercised in my whole life to live. The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered so that when we advance in years we have to be stubbing along and be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth, even, frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally, and spiritually it still remains. And when there we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there; in fact, we are like the light of the morning. … God has revealed some little things, with regard to his movements and power, and the operation and motion of the lightning furnish a fine illustration of the ability of the Almighty (DBY, 380).

When we pass into the spirit world we shall possess a measure of his power. Here, we are continually troubled with ills and ailments of various kinds. In the spirit world we are free from all this and enjoy life, glory, and intelligence; and we have the Father to speak to us, Jesus to speak to us, and angels to speak to us, and we shall enjoy the society of the just and the pure who are in the spirit world until the resurrection (DBY, 380–81).

Suppose, then, that a man is evil in his heart—wholly given up to wickedness, and in that condition dies, his spirit will enter into the spirit world intent upon evil. On the other hand, if we are striving with all the powers and faculties God has given us to improve upon our talents, to prepare ourselves to dwell in eternal life, and the grave receives our bodies while we are thus engaged, with what disposition will our spirits enter their next state? They will be still striving to do the things of God, only in a much greater degree—learning, increasing, growing in grace and in the knowledge of the truth (DBY, 379).

If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits—Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh (DBY, 379).

Here [the faithful] shall be perplexed and hunted by him; but when we go into the spirit world there we are masters over the power of satan, and he cannot afflict us any more, and this is enough for me to know (DNW, 1 Oct. 1856, 3).

If a person is baptized for the remission of sins, and dies a short time thereafter, he is not prepared at once to enjoy a fulness of the glory promised to the faithful in the Gospel; for he must be schooled while in the spirit, in the other departments of the house of God, passing on from truth to truth, from intelligence to intelligence, until he is prepared to again receive his body and to enter into the presence of the Father and the Son. We cannot enter into celestial glory in our present state of ignorance and mental darkness (DBY, 378–79).

We have more friends behind the veil than on this side, and they will hail us more joyfully than you were ever welcomed by your parents and friends in this world; and you will rejoice more when you meet them than you ever rejoiced to see a friend in this life; and then we shall go on from step to step, from rejoicing to rejoicing, and from one intelligence and power to another, our happiness becoming more and more exquisite and sensible as we proceed in the words and powers of life (DBY, 379–80).

When we get through this state of being, to the next room, I may call it, we are not going to stop there. We shall still go on, doing all the good we can, administering and officiating for all whom we are permitted to administer and officiate for, and then go on to the next, and to the next, until the Lord shall crown all who have been faithful on this earth, and the work pertaining to the earth is finished, and the Savior, whom we have been helping, has completed his task, and the earth, with all things pertaining to it, is presented to the Father. Then these faithful ones will receive their blessings and crowns, and their inheritances will be set off to them and be given to them, and they will then go on, worlds upon worlds, increasing for ever and ever (DBY, 376).

Re: Deceived in the Spirit World?

Posted: October 11th, 2013, 10:25 pm
by freedomforall
coachmarc wrote:"A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power…" (TPJS p. 217)

Interesting. We are all pressing forward along our path (iron rod). Eventually we die. I think many people believe that the veil parts upon death and we behold His face. I personally believe we don't. Not until we have proven ourselves true and faithful in all things. Joseph Smith seems to imply the same, if I understand him correctly. Many will still be pressing forward along the same path. Death is but a door. And in the world to come, we may yet be deceived. What kind of wonders lie beyond this door? That was a rhetorical question, btw. Just another reason to gorge yourself on the best books and feast upon the words of Christ. Food for thought.
Alma 40:10-13
10 And when the time cometh when all shall rise, then shall they know that God knoweth all the times which are appointed unto man.
11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that
the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life.
12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.
13 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil—for behold, they have no part nor portion of the Spirit of the Lord; for behold, they chose evil works rather than good; therefore the spirit of the devil did enter into them, and take possession of their house—and these shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.


How did you read this, coachmarc?

Also:

Eccl. 12:7
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

2 Ne. 9:38
38 And, in fine, wo unto all those who die in their sins; for they shall return to God, and behold his face, and remain in their sins.

John 20:17
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Did these scriptures help any?