LDS Freedom Forum

What is a corporation sole?

Does a legal charter play any part in how a new president is chosen?

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LDSguy wrote:it'd be nice if people, from time to time, could just answer a simple question in a forum, without having to launch into some diatribe and offer their two-bit nonsense.

Well, that "diatribe" and "two-bit nonsense" aside...

I think it'll be the senior-most apostle alive at the time of the current Prophet's (Thomas S. Monson) death/release. Also known as: The Lord's pattern of Prophetic succession. I mean, naming names, as if our our opinions or conjecture are anything but "two-bit nonsense" is just silly, after all!

sixth seal wrote:

Franktalk wrote:

ajax wrote:IDK, but it's pretty amazing that we can know in advance who the next Prophet(s) will be by simply looking at a seating chart.

I thought for sure Samuel looked at a seating chart before going to David. These patterns don't change over the ages. The whole asking God thing is such old school.

Yes I am mocking the process.

What's that passage of scripture?... Ah yes, "Fools mock, but they shall mourn."

If fellow Mormons read the scriptures they'd know how the presiding high priest is chosen... by the "body" of Saints. I have no say in who is chosen.

LOL, Jbalm!
As for -- are we to accept what a prophet says without questioning or thought -- please see the talk by Pres. Uchtdorf a couple of days ago at Gen Conf.

AGStacker wrote:If fellow Mormons read the scriptures they'd know how the presiding high priest is chosen... by the "body" of Saints. I have no say in who is chosen.

Then you error in your misinterpretation of the scriptures. It never says by the "body" of Saints. the "body" it is talking about is when the First Presidency is dissolved and the Quorum of the Twelve automatically becomes the presiding body of the Church.

In 1835 the Lord gave a revelation on this matter that provides for orderly succession. The revelation states that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is a body equal in authority to the First Presidency. (See D&C 107:24.) That means that when the President of the Church dies, the First Presidency is dissolved and the Quorum of the Twelve automatically becomes the presiding body of the Church. That pattern was established with the death of the Church’s first President, Joseph Smith.

Following the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph and his brother Hyrum in 1844, the Quorum of the Twelve, with Brigham Young as quorum president, presided over the Church for the next 3 1/2 years.

Then, on the banks of the Missouri River in Winter Quarters on December 5, 1847, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met in council at the home of Orson Hyde. Each of the twelve Apostles expressed his views regarding the matter of reorganizing the First Presidency. Present in that meeting was Ezra T. Benson, great-grandfather of President Ezra Taft Benson. On that occasion, Brigham Young, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was unanimously sustained by members of that body as President of the Church. He selected Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards as counselors. This action created a new First Presidency, which was later sustained by the unanimous vote of the Saints at a general conference of the Church held December 24, 1847, in a log tabernacle constructed at Winter Quarters by the Saints for this special conference. This action was later ratified by members of the Church at conferences in Iowa, Salt Lake City, and the British Isles.

This divinely revealed procedure for installing a new First Presidency of the Church—revelation from the Lord and sustaining by the people—has been followed to our present day. The First Presidency is to be “upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church.” (see D&C 107:22.)

“It is reassuring to know that [a new President is] … not elected through committees and conventions with all their conflicts, criticisms, and by the vote of men, but [is] called of God and then sustained by the people. …

“The pattern divine allows for no errors, no conflicts, no ambitions, no ulterior motives. The Lord has reserved for himself the calling of his leaders over his church.” (Ensign, Jan. 1973, p. 33.) - Spencer W. Kimball

If anybody in this forum has any problems with this process then I'd advise them to take it to the Lord in prayer.

Source: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/05/a-pro ... f-the-lord

Also, this is an excellent explanation: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of ... y?lang=eng

LDSguy wrote:

AGStacker wrote:If fellow Mormons read the scriptures they'd know how the presiding high priest is chosen... by the "body" of Saints. I have no say in who is chosen.

Then you error in your misinterpretation of the scriptures. It never says by the "body" of Saints. the "body" it is talking about is when the First Presidency is dissolved and the Quorum of the Twelve automatically becomes the presiding body of the Church.

In 1835 the Lord gave a revelation on this matter that provides for orderly succession. The revelation states that the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles is a body equal in authority to the First Presidency. (See D&C 107:24.) That means that when the President of the Church dies, the First Presidency is dissolved and the Quorum of the Twelve automatically becomes the presiding body of the Church. That pattern was established with the death of the Church’s first President, Joseph Smith.

Following the martyrdom of the Prophet Joseph and his brother Hyrum in 1844, the Quorum of the Twelve, with Brigham Young as quorum president, presided over the Church for the next 3 1/2 years.

Then, on the banks of the Missouri River in Winter Quarters on December 5, 1847, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles met in council at the home of Orson Hyde. Each of the twelve Apostles expressed his views regarding the matter of reorganizing the First Presidency. Present in that meeting was Ezra T. Benson, great-grandfather of President Ezra Taft Benson. On that occasion, Brigham Young, President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, was unanimously sustained by members of that body as President of the Church. He selected Heber C. Kimball and Willard Richards as counselors. This action created a new First Presidency, which was later sustained by the unanimous vote of the Saints at a general conference of the Church held December 24, 1847, in a log tabernacle constructed at Winter Quarters by the Saints for this special conference. This action was later ratified by members of the Church at conferences in Iowa, Salt Lake City, and the British Isles.

This divinely revealed procedure for installing a new First Presidency of the Church—revelation from the Lord and sustaining by the people—has been followed to our present day. The First Presidency is to be “upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church.” (see D&C 107:22.)

“It is reassuring to know that [a new President is] … not elected through committees and conventions with all their conflicts, criticisms, and by the vote of men, but [is] called of God and then sustained by the people. …

“The pattern divine allows for no errors, no conflicts, no ambitions, no ulterior motives. The Lord has reserved for himself the calling of his leaders over his church.” (Ensign, Jan. 1973, p. 33.) - Spencer W. Kimball

If anybody in this forum has any problems with this process then I'd advise them to take it to the Lord in prayer.

Source: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/05/a-pro ... f-the-lord

Also, this is an excellent explanation: https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings-of ... y?lang=eng

Wait so are you saying that some "body" or group of people does in fact choose who the next president should be per D&C 107?

So it's not just most senior apostle? Has there ever been an instance in the modern church when it wasn't just the most senior apostle?

hyloglyph wrote: Wait so are you saying that some "body" or group of people does in fact choose who the next president should be per D&C 107?

So it's not just most senior apostle? Has there ever been an instance in the modern church when it wasn't just the most senior apostle?

It's always the senor apostle, the president of the quorum of the twelve is always the senor apostle, and will be the next president of the church.

Bob

This thread is not really about who is the next Prophet, its about who is the next president. aksing who is the next prophet under the paradigm mostly posted here you ought to be tryign to figgure out who will be the next person called to the Q12. seeing as they are sustained as P/S/R's. not trying to figure out who the most senior of "those left" will be when the "current" dies. THAT question, ought to be posed as "who will be the next "President of the Church" . THAT person, then selects two people, and RE-FORMS the First Presidency. Truth Matters.

ps, God can and still does call by his own voice, not by the jbalm process. :-ss :ymcowboy:

BrentL wrote:This thread is not really about who is the next Prophet, its about who is the next president. aksing who is the next prophet under the paradigm mostly posted here you ought to be tryign to figgure out who will be the next person called to the Q12. seeing as they are sustained as P/S/R's. not trying to figure out who the most senior of "those left" will be when the "current" dies. THAT question, ought to be posed as "who will be the next "President of the Church" . THAT person, then selects two people, and RE-FORMS the First Presidency. Truth Matters.

ps, God can and still does call by his own voice, not by the jbalm process. :-ss :ymcowboy:

This makes a LOT of sense

bobhenstra wrote:

hyloglyph wrote: Wait so are you saying that some "body" or group of people does in fact choose who the next president should be per D&C 107?

So it's not just most senior apostle? Has there ever been an instance in the modern church when it wasn't just the most senior apostle?

It's always the senor apostle, the president of the quorum of the twelve is always the senor apostle, and will be the next president of the church.

Bob

Right Bob. Thanks.


So I guess what I'm wondering is how does this:

This divinely revealed procedure for installing a new First Presidency of the Church—revelation from the Lord and sustaining by the people

and this:

Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body,

play in if the results are already known by everyone in advance?

Yeah, the "chosen by the body" part has always confused me -- since I've never seen that happen. If we could submit names for consideration, I would certainly have some. We are supposed to pick someone like unto Moses.

I thought I had heard, and I could be wrong, that the 14 living members of that Quorum sit in council and 'suggest' (maybe not the right word) who the Spirit dictates to them (most likely after prayer and fasting) who the LORD wants as the next prophet. I assume that they all get the same answer: the senior most Apostle, but in the case that it is not unanimous, then they keep the process going of humble prayer until there is a unanimous agreement. I doubt this takes very long.

Again, I THOUGHT I had heard that, I have no source to validate it and I could be wrong, but it isn't necessarily a conclave experience such as the Catholics do.

It is quite a stretch to think that "the body" referred to in D&C 107:22 is the 12. The Twelve aren't even mentioned until verse 23 and it is unrelated to verse 22. The "body" referred to appears to me to be the High Priests. Three Presiding High Priests are to be chosen by the body of High Priests. That would be ALL high priests, not just some subset. Interesting also that the word "prophet" is not used until verse 92, and here it used to denote that the Presiding High Priest has a DUTY to be a prophet. It does not say that he is a prophet by virtue of his office.

To LDSguy, sorry for the two-bit nonsense. Others brought up the process by which the next church president is selected. I just piled on to help carry this thread further off topic. I don't really give a rip who the president of the church is. Since the prophet can never lead us astray, it doesn't matter who he is or what he says.

LDSguy wrote:I thought I had heard, and I could be wrong, that the 14 living members of that Quorum sit in council and 'suggest' (maybe not the right word) who the Spirit dictates to them (most likely after prayer and fasting) who the LORD wants as the next prophet. I assume that they all get the same answer: the senior most Apostle, but in the case that it is not unanimous, then they keep the process going of humble prayer until there is a unanimous agreement. I doubt this takes very long.

Again, I THOUGHT I had heard that, I have no source to validate it and I could be wrong, but it isn't necessarily a conclave experience such as the Catholics do.

This may be true, but I've never heard this.

It just seems so odd to me that the process is supposed to be by revelation, and chosen by some "body" but then it always ends up as the most senior apostle every time without fail.

In my mind, revelation from God has a way of being very unpredictable. While this seems to be the most predictable process in the church. Just seems weird to me. Always has.

The next prophet might come at any time. He doesn't have to be of the group of 15 does he? Nephi son of Nephi was a Holy prophet, leader, yet God sent Samuel to prophesy to the people. And then had to ask why they had not seen fit to include his prophecies in their writings. The norm is that many times there has been many prophets in the land. Maybe it is just that my definition of a Prophet is different than some. My definition; a prophet is one who has prophesied. Aren't we all to aspire to that state of righteous.

It is really simple. The Saints or, as Videre faciem Dei pointed out, high priests choose the three presiding high priests. The three high priests are then obliged to become like Moses. Remember, priesthood power doesn't come by virtue of the priesthood nor would the gifts of a prophet. Each man must receive this calling by the voice of God. Being called as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not, by virtue of the calling, grant you prophethood.

With this we can conclude that God, from time to time, will call men, and women, to be His prophets. They don't need to be a special member of the Church and in fact can be the least Saint. They can be called by God to declare repentance to a people outside the parameters of the Church. The Church does not control what God can and will do. Only He does. If He wants to call Miguel the poor Mexican to declare repentance to the people in Mesa, Arizona or in Salt Lake City He will do so.

Don't you understand that prophets are despised by the world and by those who profess to be religious?! It was the RELIGIOUS, OVERZEALOUS JEWS WHO CLAIMED THAT THEIR FATHERS WERE ABRAHAM AND MOSES WHO KILLED JESUS! Remember what the people said? Christ came from Galilee and they said nothing good comes from Galilee! "Surely a prophet of the Lord wouldn't come from Galilee or Rocky Point, Mexico or Yuma, Arizona!"

Actually I think that while LDS Guy's view is very comforting, based upon my research and discussions with GAs it is a bit incorrect. The tradition is so strongly ingrained that the decision is a pro forma one ,While there is a prayer there is never any discussion of the possibly of anyone being selected other than the senior apostle. Of course the vote is always unanimous . It is arranged so it can't be otherwise I will provide some references later but that is why I raised the issue earlier that this system ( unlike everywhere else in the church )not only doesn't require inspiration it doesn't even permit it. Think of the model of a European monarchy which it closely resembles. Indeed the arguments made in support of this approach are the same made in favor of the divine right of kings

Denver Snuffer will never be the Prophet!

It would be nice if Joseph Smith could come back and straiten thing out ... He is still head of this gospel dispensation! I wonder what he is doing on the other side... maybe straitening things out

bobhenstra wrote:Denver Snuffer will never be the Prophet!

Where did this come from and why was it brought up?

bobhenstra wrote:Denver Snuffer will never be the Prophet!

:))


Never, ever, ever will he be president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that's for sure!

bobhenstra wrote:Denver Snuffer will never be the Prophet!

Well of course not. Joseph is dead.

keep the faith wrote:

AGStacker wrote:The Lord was wrong when He placed within the Doctrine and Covenants instruction about the President of the High Priesthood and he being able to transgress. Thank, not God, Woodruff that he was able to correct the Lord by declaring that no one as President of the High Priesthood could lead the Church astray.

YOu are taking Pres. Woodruff out of context here AGStacker. I have answered this mistaken interpretation before. I guess I'll give it another shot. Look at the quote in context:

"I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty."
( The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [1946], 212–13.)

Now ask yourself how would The Lord remove Pres. Woodruff out of his place as President of the High Priesthood were he to attempt to lead the Saints astray? I'll give you a hint. Read verses 82-84 of section 107 and The Lord will answer that for you. Church disciplinary courts are here for a reason.

Here's the problem with Wilford Woodruff's quote, which is also found in Declaration #1:

The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that, the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.

Later on, recorded in that same declaration, Woodruff says:

The Lord has told me to ask the Latter-day Saints a question, and He also told me that if they would listen to what I said to them and answer the question put to them, by the Spirit and power of God, they would all answer alike, and they would all believe alike with regard to this matter.

The question is this: Which is the wisest course for the Latter-day Saints to pursue—to continue to attempt to practice plural marriage, with the laws of the nation against it and the opposition of sixty millions of people, and at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein, both for the living and the dead, and the imprisonment of the First Presidency and Twelve and the heads of families in the Church, and the confiscation of personal property of the people (all of which of themselves would stop the practice); or, after doing and suffering what we have through our adherence to this principle to cease the practice and submit to the law, and through doing so leave the Prophets, Apostles and fathers at home, so that they can instruct the people and attend to the duties of the Church, and also leave the Temples in the hands of the Saints, so that they can attend to the ordinances of the Gospel, both for the living and the dead?

What other decision has caused more divisiveness among the church members than this one matter? Aren't the many polygamist split offs from the church proof that the saints did not answer and believe all alike on that matter? Is not this evidence that Wilford Woodruff did in fact lead the church members astray?

Oh, and I think President Packer will be the next President of the church and will play a significant role when the government fails. That is unless my personal revelation on the matter is sound. I may have been deceived, however.

sixth seal wrote:

Franktalk wrote:

ajax wrote:IDK, but it's pretty amazing that we can know in advance who the next Prophet(s) will be by simply looking at a seating chart.

I thought for sure Samuel looked at a seating chart before going to David. These patterns don't change over the ages. The whole asking God thing is such old school.

Yes I am mocking the process.

What's that passage of scripture?... Ah yes, "Fools mock, but they shall mourn."

I think the scripture you are looking for is:

...they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

ajax wrote:IDK, but it's pretty amazing that we can know in advance who the next Prophet(s) will be by simply looking at a seating chart.

Yes but the Patriarchal succession everyone seems to want amounts to the same thing, so why object in one case but not another.

BTW they are all Prophets when called to the 12, so selecting one if more or less a formality.