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Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 6:54 pm
by Chicagoelder
I know there's been a few threads on this topic. I've been taught my whole life and have learned through scripture study that people who accept the Gospel are adopted into the House of Israel and are therefore no longer gentiles.

Of this adoption into the house of Israel, the Prophet Joseph Smith said: The Holy Ghost "is more powerful in expanding the mind, enlightening the understanding, and storing the intellect with present knowledge, of a man who is of the literal seed of Abraham, than one that is a Gentile, though it may not have half as much visible effect upon the body; for as the Holy Ghost falls upon one of the literal seed of Abraham, it is calm and serene; and his whole soul and body are only exercised by the pure spirit of intelligence; while the effect of the Holy Ghost upon a Gentile, is to purge out the old blood, and make him actually of the seed of Abraham. That man that has none of the blood of Abraham (naturally) must have a new creation by the Holy Ghost. In such a case, there may be more of a powerful effect upon the body, and visible to the eye, than upon an Israelite, while the Israelite at first might be far before the Gentile in pure intelligence." (Teachings, pp. 149-150.)

In his presentation to the Romans, Paul—who has been advocating the cause of the Gentiles, showing by reason and revelation that they too are entitled to the gospel—now explains that the gospel blessings come to the Gentiles because they are adopted into the house of Israel; that is, using the common figure that Israel was likened to a tame olive tree, Paul says that the Gentiles, as branches of a wild olive tree, are being grafted into the roots of the tame tree, the roots to whom the promises appertain.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 7:10 pm
by embryopocket
I would agree - as long as the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies the baptismal ordinance, they are grafted into the House of Israel. Those who wish to do so must complete the following requirements:
And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. - D&C 20:37
If someone receives the ordinance of baptism not fulfilling any one of those requirements, I believe that they have not truly received baptism. Their baptism will come when they begin to live up to all of the said requirements.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 7:46 pm
by chemish
embryopocket wrote:I would agree - as long as the Holy Spirit of Promise ratifies the baptismal ordinance, they are grafted into the House of Israel. Those who wish to do so must complete the following requirements:
And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church. - D&C 20:37
If someone receives the ordinance of baptism not fulfilling any one of those requirements, I believe that they have not truly received baptism. Their baptism will come when they begin to live up to all of the said requirements.

yes i believe someone is adopted into the house of Israel when they are baptized with fire and the holy ghost. i wish i could say that when i was 8 i was baptized with water and fire but i wasn't, only water.

i still have unholy gentile blood, we cannot possibly believe that by virtue of church membership we are automatically a part of the House of Israel.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:11 pm
by Thomas
Try to consider how someone can be a Mexican-American. They are born in Mexico. They immigrate to the United States and become adopted into the country. Even though they are Americans people will still call them Mexicans. It is a way of identifying their racial background.

Book of Mormon prophecy describes three main groups: The Gentiles, the literal house of Israel (AKA the remnant) and the heathens. Since each group has a different fate they need to have a different name. The allegory of Zenos helps us to understand this concept. The gentiles are the wild branch that is grafted to the natural tree. The tree is the house of Israel. The purpose of the wild branch is to preserve the tree so it stays alive for the natural branch to be grafted back into the tree.

These scriptures leave no doubt as to the indenty of the Gentiles.
Title page:
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
Mormon 5:
9 And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people, and this people should be counted as naught among them—therefore I write a small abridgment, daring not to give a full account of the things which I have seen, because of the commandment which I have received, and also that ye might not have too great sorrow because of the wickedness of this people.

10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.
The Gentiles have stewardship over the house of Israel. They also bring the gospel to the remnant.
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
The Gentiles will receive the sealed portion of the golden plates.

Ether 4:
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
They also help build New-Jerusalem

3 Nephi 21:
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
Those who continue to insist the LDS people are not Gentiles please tell me, who are the people that distribute the Book of Mormon to the world, have stewardship over the house of Israel, bring the gospel to the remnant, help build New- Jerusalem and receive the sealed portion of the plates?

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:23 pm
by clarkkent14
The Proclamation of the Twelve
The Lord will make her that halted a remnant; and gather her that was driven out and afflicted; and make her who was cast afar off, a strong nation; and will reign over them in Mount Zion from that time forth and for ever.

Or, in other words, He will assemble the Natives the remnants of Joseph in America; and make of them a great, and strong, and powerful nation: and he will civilize and enlighten them and will establish a holy city, and temple, and seat of government among them, which shall be called Zion.

And there shall be his tabernacle, his sanctuary, his throne, and seat of government for the whole continent of North and South America for ever.

In short, it will be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to the eastern.

And there the Messiah will visit them in person; and the old Saints, who will then have been raised from the dead, will be with him. And he will establish his kingdom and laws over all the land.

To this city, and to its several branches or stakes, shall the Gentiles seek, as to a standard of light and knowledge. Yea, the nations, and their kings and nobles, shall say, Come and let us go up to the Mount Zion, and to the temple of the Lord; where his holy priesthood stand to minister continually before the Lord; and where we may be instructed more fully, and receive the ordinances of remission, and of sanctification, and redemption; and thus be adopted into the family of Israel, and identified in the same covenants of promise.

The despised and degraded son of the forest, who has wandered in dejection and sorrow, and suffered reproach, shall then drop his disguise, and stand forth in manly dignity, and exclaim to the Gentiles who have envied and sold him: "I am Joseph: does my father yet live?" Or, in other words: I am a descendant of that Joseph who was sold into Egypt. You have hated me, and sold me, and thought I was dead. But lo! I live, and am heir to the inheritance, titles, honors, priesthood, sceptre, crown, throne, and eternal life and dignity of my fathers who live for evermore.

He shall then be ordained, washed, anointed with holy oil and arrayed in fine linen, even in the glorious and beautiful garments and royal robes of the high priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God; and shall enter into the congregation of the Lord, even into the Holy of Holies, there to be crowned with authority and power which shall never end.

The Spirit of the Lord shall then descend upon him, like the dew upon the mountains of Hermon, and like refreshing showers of rain upon the flowers of Paradise.

His heart shall expand with knowledge, wide as eternity; and his mind shall comprehend the vast creations of his God, and His eternal purpose of redemption, glory, and exaltation, which was devised in heaven before the worlds were organized; but made manifest in these last days, for the fulness of the Gentiles, and for the exaltation of Israel.

He shall also behold his Redeemer and be filled with his presence, while the cloud of his glory shall be seen in his temple.

The city of Zion, with its sanctuary and priesthood, and the glorious fulness of the gospel, will constitute a standard which will put an end to jarring creeds and political wranglings, by uniting the republics, states, provinces, territories, nations, tribes, kindred, tongues, people, and sects of North and South America in one great and common bond of brotherhood.

While truth and knowledge shall make them free, and love cement their union. The Lord also shall be their king and their lawgiver; while wars shall cease and peace prevail for a thousand years.

Thus shall American rulers, statesmen, citizens, and savages know, "this once," that there is a God in Israel, who can utter his voice, and it shall be fulfilled.

Americans! This mighty and strange work has been commenced in your midst, and must roll on in fulfilment.

You are now invited, and earnestly intreated, to investigate it thoroughly, and to aid and participate in its accomplishment.
"and receive the ordinances of remission (Born of Water), and of sanctification (Born of Spirit or Fire), and redemption (Born of The Blood); and thus be adopted into the family of Israel, and identified in the same covenants of promise."

Unless you receive all three, you are not adopted. Just another Gentile. I've said in other posts, the general thinking has been reduced to Water. It's Water, Spirit, and Blood.
Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.
That's how you get adopted, becoming a Son of God. Being redeemed from the fall through Christ.
Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:26 pm
by superdan
Thanks Thomas. Very astute.
Boyd K. Packer wrote:Moroni warned us that the secret combinations begun by Gadianton ...

... are had among all people. . . .

Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [and the term gentile in that place in the Book of Mormon refers to us in our generation], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you. . . .

Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you. [Ether 8:20, 23–24]
From Lehi's Dream and You. Republished in the Ensign 2010.
http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=1673

It's hard to find people on the Freedom Forum willing to dispute that the above quote from the Book of Mormon doesn't apply to us, especially in the LDS church. (But feel free to rebut. :) )

Another great quote from the same talk:
Largely because of television, instead of looking over into that spacious building, we are, in effect, living inside of it. That is your fate in this generation. You are living in that great and spacious building.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:28 pm
by Thomas
Once adopted you will still be a Gentile. You will be both Gentile and of the house of Israel or the Gentile branch of the house of Israel.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:42 pm
by clarkkent14
Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile
D&C 109:60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.
3 Nephi 16:7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
2 Nephi 30:3 And now, I would prophesy somewhat more concerning the Jews and the Gentiles. For after the book of which I have spoken shall come forth, and be written unto the Gentiles, and sealed up again unto the Lord, there shall be many which shall believe the words which are written; and they shall carry them forth unto the remnant of our seed.
3 Nephi 16:4 these sayings which ye shall write shall be kept and shall be manifested unto the Gentiles, that through the fulness of the Gentiles, the remnant of their seed, who shall be scattered forth upon the face of the earth because of their unbelief, may be brought in, or may be brought to a knowledge of me, their Redeemer.
1 Nephi 22:6 Nevertheless, after they shall be nursed by the Gentiles, and the Lord has lifted up his hand upon the Gentiles and set them up for a standard, and their children have been carried in their arms, and their daughters have been carried upon their shoulders, behold these things of which are spoken are temporal; for thus are the covenants of the Lord with our fathers; and it meaneth us in the days to come, and also all our brethren who are of the house of Israel.
These are in a specific order if you are wondering.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:52 pm
by TZONE
While I agree with whats been posted, does it matter?
1 nephi 19:23 And I did read many things unto them which were written in the books of Moses; but that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their Redeemer I did read unto them that which was written by the prophet Isaiah; for I did liken all scriptures unto us, that it might be for our profit and learning.

24 Wherefore I spake unto them, saying: Hear ye the words of the prophet, ye who are a remnant of the house of Israel, a branch who have been broken off; hear ye the words of the prophet, which were written unto all the house of Israel, and liken them unto yourselves, that ye may have hope as well as your brethren from whom ye have been broken off; for after this manner has the prophet written.
Al prophecies and scritpures apply to us. Nothing changes in our course of history, or time, or as an individual unless we have done one thing. Become pure in heart, ascended into the presence of God purifying our hearts, sanctification.

Titles become less meaningful (except to determine future prophecy).

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 8:55 pm
by marc
The dedicatory prayer for Kirtland temple as given to Joseph Smith by the Lord (See all of section 109)
60 Now these words, O Lord, we have spoken before thee, concerning the revelations and commandments which thou hast given unto us, who are identified with the Gentiles.
Revelation given to Nephi by the Lord in 2 Nephi 30
1 And now behold, my beloved brethren, I would speak unto you; for I, Nephi, would not suffer that ye should suppose that ye are more righteous than the Gentiles shall be. For behold, except ye shall keep the commandments of God ye shall all likewise perish; and because of the words which have been spoken ye need not suppose that the Gentiles are utterly destroyed.

2 For behold, I say unto you that as many of the Gentiles as will repent are the covenant people of the Lord; and as many of the Jews as will not repent shall be cast off; for the Lord covenanteth with none save it be with them that repent and believe in his Son, who is the Holy One of Israel.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 9:12 pm
by Chicagoelder
Thomas wrote:Try to consider how someone can be a Mexican-American. They are born in Mexico. They immigrate to the United States and become adopted into the country. Even though they are Americans people will still call them Mexicans. It is a way of identifying their racial background.

Book of Mormon prophecy describes three main groups: The Gentiles, the literal house of Israel (AKA the remnant) and the heathens. Since each group has a different fate they need to have a different name. The allegory of Zenos helps us to understand this concept. The gentiles are the wild branch that is grafted to the natural tree. The tree is the house of Israel. The purpose of the wild branch is to preserve the tree so it stays alive for the natural branch to be grafted back into the tree.

These scriptures leave no doubt as to the indenty of the Gentiles.
Title page:
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.
Mormon 5:
9 And also that a knowledge of these things must come unto the remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles, who the Lord hath said should scatter this people, and this people should be counted as naught among them—therefore I write a small abridgment, daring not to give a full account of the things which I have seen, because of the commandment which I have received, and also that ye might not have too great sorrow because of the wickedness of this people.

10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.
The Gentiles have stewardship over the house of Israel. They also bring the gospel to the remnant.
15 And also that the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry.
The Gentiles will receive the sealed portion of the golden plates.

Ether 4:
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.

6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
They also help build New-Jerusalem

3 Nephi 21:
6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
Those who continue to insist the LDS people are not Gentiles please tell me, who are the people that distribute the Book of Mormon to the world, have stewardship over the house of Israel, bring the gospel to the remnant, help build New- Jerusalem and receive the sealed portion of the plates?
Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph, Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs. Joseph Fielding Smith. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 149-150.

As for sharing the Gospel and spreading the message and building the New Jersusalem...Ephraim will lead the way. It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead, When the "lost tribes" come-and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion-in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the "firstborn" in Israel.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 9:35 pm
by superdan
chicagoelder wrote:Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel.
Oh good.
1 Nephi 11 wrote: 35 And the multitude of the earth was gathered together; and I beheld that they were in a large and spacious building, like unto the building which my father saw. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Behold the world and the wisdom thereof; yea, behold the house of Israel hath gathered together to fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

36 And it came to pass that I saw and bear record, that the great and spacious building was the pride of the world; and it fell, and the fall thereof was exceedingly great. And the angel of the Lord spake unto me again, saying: Thus shall be the destruction of all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, that shall fight against the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne ... ang=eng#32
BK Packer wrote:Largely because of television, instead of looking over into that spacious building, we are, in effect, living inside of it. That is your fate in this generation. You are living in that great and spacious building.
BK Packer wrote:You are growing up in enemy territory.
Maybe since we're watching too much TV we're simultaneously living behind enemy lines in the great and spacious building as Gentile members of the House of Israel fighting against the Lamb ... and thus great shall be our destruction.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 9:41 pm
by clarkkent14
Chicagoelder wrote:As for sharing the Gospel and spreading the message and building the New Jersusalem...Ephraim will lead the way. It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead, When the "lost tribes" come-and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion-in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the "firstborn" in Israel.
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;
21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
25 And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.
26 And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem. (Book of Mormon, 3 Nephi, Chapter 21)
if we repent, we will "assist" them. But now were talking about Gentile Kings and Queens.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 9:45 pm
by Thomas
chicagoelder wrote:Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph, Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs. Joseph Fielding Smith. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 149-150.

As for sharing the Gospel and spreading the message and building the New Jersusalem...Ephraim will lead the way. It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead, When the "lost tribes" come-and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion-in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the "firstborn" in Israel
.

Lets go back to the Mexican-American comparison. When a Mexican is adopted into the country of America, they receive all the rights and privileges as heirs( those born in the country). They have all the same rights as any other American , but guess what. They are still Mexicans. They are Mexican-American. We are of the house of Israel but guess what. We are still Gentiles. It is really a simple concept. I don't know why so many people have such a hard time with it, other than I think they are in denial. They do not want to make the changes in their life that will bring them to Christ. They prefer sweet sounding lies that flatter them.
[21] And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well -- and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 9:56 pm
by BrentL
Chicagoelder wrote: I will stay away from threads that tend to irk me.

Thanks

so, you just start them instead. cuz you had no idea this was going to degrade into a thread that would irk you when half the forum disagrees with you.

see, isnt this AMAZING. here we are, just like throughout ALL history, where we argue and contend over doctrine. amazing. even amongst brothers and sisters we have to contend.

and of course we are gentiles.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 10:00 pm
by Chicagoelder
Thomas wrote:
chicagoelder wrote:Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph, Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs. Joseph Fielding Smith. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 149-150.

As for sharing the Gospel and spreading the message and building the New Jersusalem...Ephraim will lead the way. It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead, When the "lost tribes" come-and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion-in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the "firstborn" in Israel
.

Lets go back to the Mexican-American comparison. When a Mexican is adopted into the country of America, they receive all the rights and privileges as heirs( those born in the country). They have all the same rights as any other American , but guess what. They are still Mexicans. They are Mexican-American. We are of the house of Israel but guess what. We are still Gentiles. It is really a simple concept. I don't know why so many people have such a hard time with it, other than I think they are in denial. They do not want to make the changes in their life that will bring them to Christ. They prefer sweet sounding lies that flatter them.
[21] And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well -- and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
Forgive me Thomas...I'm just quoting from Prophets...but let me guess you know better than them right?

My patriarchal blessing delcares that I'm of the house of Israel through the lineage of Ephraim. What does that mean...That I'm of the house of Israel....you're right it really isn't that hard to grasp ;) I know we disagree on this but we are all free to our beliefs. No hard feelings! :D

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/of-th ... l?lang=eng

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 10:02 pm
by Chicagoelder
BrentL wrote:
Chicagoelder wrote: I will stay away from threads that tend to irk me.

Thanks

so, you just start them instead. cuz you had no idea this was going to degrade into a thread that would irk you when half the forum disagrees with you.

see, isnt this AMAZING. here we are, just like throughout ALL history, where we argue and contend over doctrine. amazing. even amongst brothers and sisters we have to contend.

and of course we are gentiles.
Hey BrentL, No this does not irk me. Just trying to find out where others are coming from. I know many here on the forum have very different beliefs than myself.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 10:13 pm
by Thomas
Chicagoelder wrote:
Thomas wrote:
chicagoelder wrote:Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham's children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph, Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs. Joseph Fielding Smith. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith pp. 149-150.

As for sharing the Gospel and spreading the message and building the New Jersusalem...Ephraim will lead the way. It is Ephraim, today, who holds the priesthood. It is with Ephraim that the Lord has made covenant and has revealed the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is Ephraim who is building temples and performing the ordinances in them for both the living and for the dead, When the "lost tribes" come-and it will be a most wonderful sight and a marvelous thing when they do come to Zion-in fulfilment of the promises made through Isaiah and Jeremiah, they will have to receive the crowning blessings from their brother Ephraim, the "firstborn" in Israel
.

Lets go back to the Mexican-American comparison. When a Mexican is adopted into the country of America, they receive all the rights and privileges as heirs( those born in the country). They have all the same rights as any other American , but guess what. They are still Mexicans. They are Mexican-American. We are of the house of Israel but guess what. We are still Gentiles. It is really a simple concept. I don't know why so many people have such a hard time with it, other than I think they are in denial. They do not want to make the changes in their life that will bring them to Christ. They prefer sweet sounding lies that flatter them.
[21] And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well -- and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
Forgive me Thomas...I'm just quoting from Prophets...but let me guess you know better than them right?

My patriarchal blessing delcares that I'm of the house of Israel through the lineage of Ephraim. What does that mean...That I'm of the house of Israel....you're right it really isn't that hard to grasp ;) I know we disagree on this but we are all free to our beliefs. No hard feelings! :D

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/of-th ... l?lang=eng
I will certainly disagree with any prophet that says we are not Gentiles. It would not be the first time I have disagreed with a GA and I doubt it will be the last. I reserve the right to think for myself and to learn doctrine, on my own. It is my duty to reject any doctrine that is in conflict with the scriptures, no matter how high up in the church the doctrine comes from.
“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teaching of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.

You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.
If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it.”
(Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954-1956], 3: 203.)
Do not be deceived. Joseph fielding Smith was our prophet and he taught us to not trust him or any other GA. We are duty bound to search knowledge for ourselves and to rely on what has been revealed already. That does not mean God cannot reveal more ,but God does not change doctrine at a whim. He will not reveal doctrine that conflicts with what has already been revealed.

You still haven't answered my question about who the Gentiles are that bring the Book of Mormon to the world, have stewardship over the house of Israel etc.

My PB also says I am of Ephriam but the Book of Mormon tells me I am of the Gentiles as well.

You are rejecting Pres. Packer words where he says we are the Gentiles as well.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 10:16 pm
by BrentL
just a heads up. it is one of the most important things you can figure out. HOW you need to repent is dependent on it. oh, and Joseph Fielding Smith was easily proved wrong on things of scripture. for example he thought that the visit of the Savior was right after the destruction, not a year later.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 3rd, 2013, 10:19 pm
by clarkkent14
Chicagoelder wrote:Forgive me Thomas...I'm just quoting from Prophets...but let me guess you know better than them right?

My patriarchal blessing delcares that I'm of the house of Israel through the lineage of Ephraim. What does that mean...That I'm of the house of Israel....you're right it really isn't that hard to grasp ;) I know we disagree on this but we are all free to our beliefs. No hard feelings! :D

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1991/01/of-th ... l?lang=eng
I was told in the temple I had been "true and faithful in all things" too. I guess you're right. Man I did it in less time than you can watch the Ten Commandments! I'm on my way. Load up the SUV kids were headed to Missura.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 4th, 2013, 12:05 am
by TZONE
Its context, while we are gentiles we are also house of israel. No one is "gods" people or pure. They both need repenteance, after all the jews (house of israel) also rejected Christ.
Jacob 6:1 And now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet Zenos spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive tree, must surely come to pass.

2 And the day that he shall set his hand again the second time to recover his people, is the day, yea, even the last time, that the servants of the Lord shall go forth in his power, to nourish and prune his vineyard; and after that the end soon cometh.

3 And how blessed are they who have labored diligently in his vineyard; and how cursed are they who shall be cast out into their own place! And the world shall be burned with fire.

4 And how merciful is our God unto us, for he remembereth the house of Israel, both roots and branches; and he stretches forth his hands unto them all the day long; and they are a stiffnecked and a gainsaying people; but as many as will not harden their hearts shall be saved in the kingdom of God.
House of israel sometimes includes the 12 tribes. Sometimes jews, sometimes gentiles. PB is saying we are adopted into the 12 tribes or by blood. But if we are of joseph tribe, ephraim we are still also named gentiles. Jews are not gentiles. Nor heathens.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 4th, 2013, 1:01 am
by FoxMammaWisdom
http://www.mormonchronicle.com/groups/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 4th, 2013, 8:19 am
by clarkkent14
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 4th, 2013, 8:45 am
by laronius
This is how lds.org defines Gentile:

Gentile

The word Gentiles means “the nations” and eventually came to be used to mean all those not of the house of Israel. It is first used in Genesis with reference to the descendants of Japheth (Gen. 10:2–5). As used throughout the scriptures it has a dual meaning, sometimes to designate peoples of non-Israelite lineage and other times to designate nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon.


I think this makes an important distincition between the two ways in which Gentile is used. The first has to do with bloodline (which can also come about through conversion to the gospel). The second refers to a non-gospel possessing nation. I think we members here in the USA qualify as Israelites under the first category but gentiles under the second.

Re: Latter-Day Saints are not Gentiles

Posted: October 4th, 2013, 8:50 am
by Thomas
laronius wrote:This is how lds.org defines Gentile:

Gentile

The word Gentiles means “the nations” and eventually came to be used to mean all those not of the house of Israel. It is first used in Genesis with reference to the descendants of Japheth (Gen. 10:2–5). As used throughout the scriptures it has a dual meaning, sometimes to designate peoples of non-Israelite lineage and other times to designate nations that are without the gospel, even though there may be some Israelite blood therein. This latter usage is especially characteristic of the word as used in the Book of Mormon.


I think this makes an important distincition between the two ways in which Gentile is used. The first has to do with bloodline (which can also come about through conversion to the gospel). The second refers to a non-gospel possessing nation. I think we members here in the USA qualify as Israelites under the first category but gentiles under the second.
Laronius, I will ask you the same question I have asked over and over. Who are the Gentiles, mentioned in the Book of Mormon, that distribute the Book of Mormon to the world, have stewardship over the house of Israel, take the gospel to the remnant, help build New-Jerusalem and receive the sealed portion of the plates?

So far no answers.