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Did we miss the memo?Exodus 20:
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
Got any pictures or statues in your house. bro? More bad form on my part, I s'pose.Daryl wrote:
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Did we miss the memo?Exodus 20:
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
Apparently, as that same golden Angel Moroni "idol" is adorning the top left of your computer screen right now - just to the left of "LDS Freedom Forum". :-$Daryl wrote:Did we miss the memo?
Do we do these things or worship them,or are they symbols? ;)5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
I think this is a key question.SmallFarm wrote:Do we do these things or worship them,or are they symbols? ;)5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
So does this scripture mean:Graven image or graven images may refer to:
-Idolatry a pejorative term for the worship of an idol
(You shall not make for yourself an idol, one of the Ten Commandments)
-Statue
-Engraving
Chillax, bro. It's just the internet. It's just a person's opinion. We are each entitled to that. :ymhug:Original_Intent wrote:Got any pictures or statues in your house. bro? More bad form on my part, I s'pose.
We must remember that the Law of Moses was a harsh Law for a people that wanted every action spelled out for them. Jesus simplified this part of the Law when he said, "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."A Random Phrase wrote:I think this is a key question.SmallFarm wrote:Do we do these things or worship them,or are they symbols? ;)5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Sometimes I wonder if we worship things that we don't think we worship. Do we even understand what it means to worship someone?
I think we did miss it some time back.Daryl wrote: Did we miss the memo?
Original_Intent wrote:Got any pictures or statues in your house. bro?
This made me laugh. I guess OI does too. I should be in good company if we are all breaking a commandment together. :ymhug: My guess, and that is all it is, is that graven images constitute "stuff". So even if we aren't worshipping them, we put effort into making them, and probably even in many cases giving them some bling.Daryl wrote:Moses tried to take them up the mountain to have their own experience. They declined. Said they wanted him to talk to God and they would follow him instead.
Moses tried and failed to help them achieve this on their own. He still wanted them to try to achieve the experience - he didn't want to give up on them. So instead he gave them the basic commandments, which if followed would have the same result.
This being the case, why is it important not to have graven images? Why is that particular law so important? What is to be gained by having zero graven images?
Forget the controversy for just a moment. Why did Moses institute this law? There is a reason.
In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; -Isaiah 2:20
I think you are right.Original_Intent wrote:My guess, and that is all it is, is that graven images constitute "stuff". So even if we aren't worshipping them, we put effort into making them, and probably even in many cases giving them some bling.Daryl wrote:Moses tried to take them up the mountain to have their own experience. They declined. Said they wanted him to talk to God and they would follow him instead.
Moses tried and failed to help them achieve this on their own. He still wanted them to try to achieve the experience - he didn't want to give up on them. So instead he gave them the basic commandments, which if followed would have the same result.
This being the case, why is it important not to have graven images? Why is that particular law so important? What is to be gained by having zero graven images?
Forget the controversy for just a moment. Why did Moses institute this law? There is a reason.
I get the feeling that as far as temporal stuff goes, the Lord would like us to feed, clothe and shelter ourselves, and then consecrate ourselves to building the kingdom. So the effort to make and adorn graven images is probably seen, at the very least, as a waste of the precious time we have here in mortality.
So maybe a first step for Zion is when we toss all that non-essential crap to the bats.
In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats; -Isaiah 2:20
First of all, we have to remember that the Jews overdid things. One of their sins was "looking beyond the mark," and the rabbis replaced true covenant keeping with pious observance of rules that made people look and feel religious.BringerOfJoy wrote:I think we did miss it some time back.Daryl wrote: Did we miss the memo?
Because of this commandment, (not JUST the law of Moses; but one of the 10 commandments) Jews did not have any pictures, statues, etc. in their temples or synagogues of people or animals. They took it pretty seriously.
The first time it really struck me that perhaps we were missing the boat on this one; was when I was walking around Orem/Provo one day, and walked by this little store that had tons of little statues/busts out front of Joseph and Hyrum, and other quintessential mormon stuff that you could have them all over your yard as lawn ornaments.
I grew up in Catholic country, and I remember all the little "Mary," and "Jesus" and various saints ornaments in the lawns. I knew then that we had "arrived." And not in any good way.
To repent is to remember God. To remember God is to invoke God. To invoke God could lead to a personal experience with him. I have seen the face of God and it is nothing like the graven images found in the pretenses of Mormondom. Those are the counterfeit which are a distraction. Moses knew that and set laws to try to prevent our nature from inhibiting the experience.We equate in large measure, repentance, with whatever it is you're doing with your genitals. Joseph equates redemption and repentance with whatever it is you're doing with your heart and with your mind. The problem we must overcome to obtain salvation is our profound ignorance. And what the gospel offers defies ignorance, subdues it, challenges it, destroys it, and leaves it in the dark. So let's try and search into, and obtain some illumination.
Denver Snuffer, Boise, Idaho talk
Alma teaches us in visualizations how to test the seed. Please put this to the test. It is real. It is good. It is the way to see the Face of God and live!27 But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words.
28 Now, we will compare the word unto a seed. Now, if ye give place, that a seed may be planted in your heart, behold, if it be a true seed, or a good seed, if ye do not cast it out by your unbelief, that ye will resist the Spirit of the Lord, behold, it will begin to swell within your breasts; and when you feel these swelling motions, ye will begin to say within yourselves—It must needs be that this is a good seed, or that the word is good, for it beginneth to enlarge my soul; yea, it beginneth to enlighten my understanding, yea, it beginneth to be delicious to me.
29 Now behold, would not this increase your faith? I say unto you, Yea; nevertheless it hath not grown up to a perfect knowledge.
30 But behold, as the seed swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, then you must needs say that the seed is good; for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow. And now, behold, will not this strengthen your faith? Yea, it will strengthen your faith: for ye will say I know that this is a good seed; for behold it sprouteth and beginneth to grow.
31 And now, behold, are ye sure that this is a good seed? I say unto you, Yea; for every seed bringeth forth unto its own likeness.
32 Therefore, if a seed groweth it is good, but if it groweth not, behold it is not good, therefore it is cast away.
33 And now, behold, because ye have tried the experiment, and planted the seed, and it swelleth and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow, ye must needs know that the seed is good.
34 And now, behold, is your knowledge perfect? Yea, your knowledge is perfect in that thing, and your faith is dormant; and this because you know, for ye know that the word hath swelled your souls, and ye also know that it hath sprouted up, that your understanding doth begin to be enlightened, and your mind doth begin to expand.
35 O then, is not this real? I say unto you, Yea, because it is light; and whatsoever is light, is good, because it is discernible, therefore ye must know that it is good; and now behold, after ye have tasted this light is your knowledge perfect?
36 Behold I say unto you, Nay; neither must ye lay aside your faith, for ye have only exercised your faith to plant the seed that ye might try the experiment to know if the seed was good.
37 And behold, as the tree beginneth to grow, ye will say: Let us nourish it with great care, that it may get root, that it may grow up, and bring forth fruit unto us. And now behold, if ye nourish it with much care it will get root, and grow up, and bring forth fruit.
38 But if ye neglect the tree, and take no thought for its nourishment, behold it will not get any root; and when the heat of the sun cometh and scorcheth it, because it hath no root it withers away, and ye pluck it up and cast it out.
39 Now, this is not because the seed was not good, neither is it because the fruit thereof would not be desirable; but it is because your ground is barren, and ye will not nourish the tree, therefore ye cannot have the fruit thereof.
40 And thus, if ye will not nourish the word, looking forward with an eye of faith to the fruit thereof, ye can never pluck of the fruit of the tree of life.
41 But if ye will nourish the word, yea, nourish the tree as it beginneth to grow, by your faith with great diligence, and with patience, looking forward to the fruit thereof, it shall take root; and behold it shall be a tree springing up unto everlasting life.
42 And because of your diligence and your faith and your patience with the word in nourishing it, that it may take root in you, behold, by and by ye shall pluck the fruit thereof, which is most precious, which is sweet above all that is sweet, and which is white above all that is white, yea, and pure above all that is pure; and ye shall feast upon this fruit even until ye are filled, that ye hunger not, neither shall ye thirst.
43 Then, my brethren, ye shall reap the rewards of your faith, and your diligence, and patience, and long-suffering, waiting for the tree to bring forth fruit unto you.
Daryl wrote:One common issue for all people of all dispensations: focus on guilt & laws.
Where should our focus be? I love this idea:
To repent is to remember God. To remember God is to invoke God. To invoke God could lead to a personal experience with him. I have seen the face of God and it is nothing like the graven images found in the pretenses of Mormondom. Those are the counterfeit which are a distraction. Moses knew that and set laws to try to prevent our nature from inhibiting the experience.We equate in large measure, repentance, with whatever it is you're doing with your genitals. Joseph equates redemption and repentance with whatever it is you're doing with your heart and with your mind. The problem we must overcome to obtain salvation is our profound ignorance. And what the gospel offers defies ignorance, subdues it, challenges it, destroys it, and leaves it in the dark. So let's try and search into, and obtain some illumination.
Denver Snuffer, Boise, Idaho talk
Despite the junk in my head, I have seen the Lord. I repented. I invoked. I saw. I will go to my grave professing it: I have seen the face of God and LIVED!
I love the church. Sitting in meetings now. I recognize the artifacts of the house of Israel for what it is. Absolutely the LDS church houses Israel, right down to their faults. I accept it. I love it. I recognize it. I earnestly strive to learn from its past.keep the faith wrote:Counterfeit Graven images found in the pretenses of Mormondom? My how charitible you are toward the Church of Jesus Christ Daryl. It is so curious to me that those who profess the loudest to have experienced a personal visitation from Diety on this site are more often than not the Church's most severe critics and accusers. Hmmm... :-sDaryl wrote:One common issue for all people of all dispensations: focus on guilt & laws.
Where should our focus be? I love this idea:
To repent is to remember God. To remember God is to invoke God. To invoke God could lead to a personal experience with him. I have seen the face of God and it is nothing like the graven images found in the pretenses of Mormondom. Those are the counterfeit which are a distraction. Moses knew that and set laws to try to prevent our nature from inhibiting the experience.We equate in large measure, repentance, with whatever it is you're doing with your genitals. Joseph equates redemption and repentance with whatever it is you're doing with your heart and with your mind. The problem we must overcome to obtain salvation is our profound ignorance. And what the gospel offers defies ignorance, subdues it, challenges it, destroys it, and leaves it in the dark. So let's try and search into, and obtain some illumination.
Denver Snuffer, Boise, Idaho talk
Despite the junk in my head, I have seen the Lord. I repented. I invoked. I saw. I will go to my grave professing it: I have seen the face of God and LIVED!