LDS Freedom Forum

Our dear brother Seek the Truth continues to remind us of this quote from Joseph Smith:

"Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God; but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels." -TPJS pg. 272

I think we all recognize the truth of these words, so maybe we are just talking past each other.

I think it would be helpful to flesh this out.

Just some random thoughts:

-God is THE legal administrator, and reserves to Himself the bestowal of the highest of blessings.

-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

Joseph Smith also said this:

“I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses.” - (Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday May 1, 1842 Source: Manuscript History of the Church)

Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

ajax wrote: Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

The point that many miss is that a servant of God acts as God's hands and mouth. The will of the servant is not in play when the body of the servant is being used by God. So the legal administrator is always God. He may use a temporal body of another for a moment now and then to get His message out. But many say they come in His name. So it rest with us to sort out who is speaking for God in those moments. We are to check the scriptures to see if what is said is in line with what the scriptures teach. If we find conflict we are to retain the scriptures and toss out false revelation. Then we have the Holy Spirit which will assist us in our sorting out.

You of course know this. But I thought I would post this for those who worship prophets.

ajax wrote:
-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

When Christ healed the 10 lepers, he still sent them to the priests for ritual cleansing. Yet it's hard to think of those priests as legal administrators, because by that time

The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven - Joseph Smith

Though the priestly system was not staffed by legal administrators, the people were still to submit to it for a time. I do not fully understand that. Any insights?

Everything I am reading about legal administrators indicates they are made so by their own connection to heaven, not by the ordination of another man.

The kingdom of God was set up on the earth from the days of Adam to the present time, whenever there has been a righteous man on earth unto whom God revealed His word and gave power and authority to administer in His name. And where there is a priest of God—a minister who has power and authority from God to administer in the ordinances of the gospel and officiate in the priesthood of God—there is the kingdom of God.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 271

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish; - Alma 13

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name. -JST Gen 14

QUESTIONS:

If that is the case, then what are we to make of earthly ordinations such as those performed by Adam for his descendants as recorded in DC 107:42-50?

What about Abraham, who received the priesthood from Melchizedek? (DC 84:14)

Were these men, who were ordained by other men, legal administrators just like Adam and Melchizedek?

Was adam commanded to perform those ordinations "by prophecy and revelation", so it's the same as if God performed the ordination? (Articles of Faith 5, DC1:38)

Is that why Adam's descendants weren't all ordained at age 18? (Malaleel wasn't ordained until after his son, grandson, and great grandson had been ordained, and he was 496 years old. His grandson Enoch was only 25 years old when he was ordained.)

What implications does that have for us?

I wasn't ordained by prophecy and revelation. I was ordained because I was 12 and 18 years old. Same with the man who ordained me. Does that mean I have to press forward and obtain my own "dispensation" of the priesthood before I am a legal administrator? What of the ordinances I performed?

Some would argue "well do you have the gift of the holy ghost? Then the melchizedek priesthood must be active.". But the power of the Holy Ghost is

the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. -1Nephi 13:14

But if that's the case, then why would Christ's servants need to be ordained to give it, both in the NT and in 3Nephi?

Is the power to give the gift of the HG the same as the Melchizedek priesthood, or have we just assumed so? Joseph and Oliver received the Holy Ghost immediately after baptism, after all, though they were told they didn't have the authority to give it yet.

ajax wrote:Our dear brother Seek the Truth continues to remind us of this quote from Joseph Smith:

"Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God; but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels." -TPJS pg. 272

I think we all recognize the truth of these words, so maybe we are just talking past each other.

I think it would be helpful to flesh this out.

Just some random thoughts:

-God is THE legal administrator, and reserves to Himself the bestowal of the highest of blessings.

-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

Joseph Smith also said this:

“I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses.” - (Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday May 1, 1842 Source: Manuscript History of the Church)

Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

I am so glad that you started this thread, Ajax, as I was thinking of doing the same. The question we need to ask ourselves is the one you have answered. That is, by identifying who the legal administrator is....it is God!! This also helps to answer the questions you have posed about other individuals in scripture who did not fit within the parameters many posters are listing as those which must be met.

stillwater wrote:

ajax wrote:
-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

When Christ healed the 10 lepers, he still sent them to the priests for ritual cleansing. Yet it's hard to think of those priests as legal administrators, because by that time

The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven - Joseph Smith

Though the priestly system was not staffed by legal administrators, the people were still to submit to it for a time. I do not fully understand that. Any insights?

I will take a stab at this. This is in keeping with Jesus' teaching the masses to continue to do what the scribes and Pharisees taught them to do; but to NOT do what the scribes and Pharisees were doing. Now, even though there were no legal administrators, ALL law is still purposed to point us to God. The particular law which the people were following at that time was the Law of Moses---and even in its corrupted condition of having become the commandments of men, it was still the law they followed. As such, it still had the ability to point them to God. And because it was the Law of Moses they followed, the law required that the 10 lepers follow certain procedures.

I believe that Jesus wanted them to continue the outward appearance for following the law which His sacrifice would later fulfill; though their actions in doing so had no actual effect on the spiritual aspect of their journey.

Stillwater, I am very much enjoying and appreciating your posts!

[quote="Franktalk"

You of course know this. But I thought I would post this for those who worship prophets.[/quote]

UnChristlike ad homonym straw man

ajax wrote:Our dear brother Seek the Truth continues to remind us of this quote from Joseph Smith:

"Whenever men can find out the will of God and find an administrator legally authorized from God, there is the kingdom of God; but where these are not, the kingdom of God is not. All the ordinances, systems, and administrations on the earth are of no use to the children of men, unless they are ordained and authorized of God; for nothing will save a man but a legal administrator; for none others will be acknowledged either by God or angels." -TPJS pg. 272

I think we all recognize the truth of these words, so maybe we are just talking past each other.

I think it would be helpful to flesh this out.

Just some random thoughts:

-God is THE legal administrator, and reserves to Himself the bestowal of the highest of blessings.

-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

Joseph Smith also said this:

“I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses.” - (Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday May 1, 1842 Source: Manuscript History of the Church)

Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

The context early is speaking of a man (yes i dared say it) as the legal administrator. The same person is the legal admin in either case. The context isn't saying that only rich people can get ordinances in the Temple (temple being for unworthy's by inference) bu that the location isn't the vital (though important) but the authority of the person administering

Ben McClintock wrote:

ajax wrote: Joseph Smith also said this:

“I preached in the grove on the keys of the Kingdom, Charity &c The keys are certain signs and words by which false spirits and personages may be detected from true, which cannot be revealed to the Elders till the Temple is completed--The rich can only get them in the Temple, the poor may get them on the mountain top as did Moses.” - (Sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. on Sunday May 1, 1842 Source: Manuscript History of the Church)

Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

The context early is speaking of a man (yes i dared say it) as the legal administrator. The same person is the legal admin in either case. The context isn't saying that only rich people can get ordinances in the Temple (temple being for unworthy's by inference) bu that the location isn't the vital (though important) but the authority of the person administering

Thanks for that Ben. Like I mentioned, this quote was part of just random thoughts I had while typing the OP. I can certainly see your point.

But what about the "as did Moses" part of the quote? I don't think a man administered to Moses on the mountain, but God himself.

jo1952 wrote:
Stillwater, I am very much enjoying and appreciating your posts!

Hey thanks Jo. I've always enjoyed yours, since long before I started posting.

I believe similarly about the 10 lepers.

There is much talk of God being *the* legal administrator. This is always true, thanks be to him. I think I want to understand my obligation to the church even when I don't find an Alma 13-style High Priest among them. Denver maintained in his books and blogs that we still look to the Church for ordinances. Until God instructs me otherwise, I think that is a great plan. I will partake of the form of Godliness in the ordinances of the church, and seek the power of godliness on the conditions laid out in scripture. Great. But that implies that no legal administrator is necessary within the church, when it really does seem that Joseph taught otherwise. I'm seeing the same contradiction that Seek the Truth is seeing in that idea:

If we need a legal administrator to perform ordinances, then the church shouldn't be sending those not "called of God, by prophecy and revelation" to perform ordinances.

If we don't need an earthly legal administrator to perform ordinances, and we simply seek God to ratify any performance, then why did Joseph Smith write and say so much about earthly legal administrators?

If Seek the Truth is right, and the ordinations within the church confer authority to men as "legal adminstrators," then why doesn't our system of ordination bear any resemblance to God's system in the scriptures?

That's the paradox I was trying to unravel in my list of questions above. It is the source of some cognitive dissonance in me right now, and that is a feeling I now run towards, rather than from.

jo1952 wrote:

stillwater wrote:

ajax wrote:
-Even in apostate ancient Israel, after they rejected the fullness, they were still the legal administrators of the lesser priesthood. (D & C 84:23-27)

When Christ healed the 10 lepers, he still sent them to the priests for ritual cleansing. Yet it's hard to think of those priests as legal administrators, because by that time

The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven - Joseph Smith

Though the priestly system was not staffed by legal administrators, the people were still to submit to it for a time. I do not fully understand that. Any insights?

I will take a stab at this. This is in keeping with Jesus' teaching the masses to continue to do what the scribes and Pharisees taught them to do; but to NOT do what the scribes and Pharisees were doing. Now, even though there were no legal administrators, ALL law is still purposed to point us to God. The particular law which the people were following at that time was the Law of Moses---and even in its corrupted condition of having become the commandments of men, it was still the law they followed. As such, it still had the ability to point them to God. And because it was the Law of Moses they followed, the law required that the 10 lepers follow certain procedures.

I believe that Jesus wanted them to continue the outward appearance for following the law which His sacrifice would later fulfill; though their actions in doing so had no actual effect on the spiritual aspect of their journey.

Stillwater, I am very much enjoying and appreciating your posts!

Funny I was just thinking about this story this week!

The one leper that returned and gave thanks actually never went to the priests. As he was on his way to the preists, he saw he was healed, and returned to thank Jesus personally. Then Jesus just told him to go on his way! No need for the ceremony! And Jesus inquired about the other 9 because he was hoping that they would be able to just do without the ceremony too. Because you seriously are missing the point if you think the ceremony is still needed while you have the Lord there himself.


14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the apriests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


See my whole life I have missed the point of the story! Jesus told them to see the priests because He was going to heal them, and at the time, any leper who got better, had to do a ritual cleansing ceremony, administered by the priests in order to thank the Lord.

Well the one out of the nine who is the star of the story realized after he was healed, why go do a ritual to thank the Lord, when I can do it in person!? Jesus saw that, and sent him on his way-- no ceremony!

I believe this is how the Master teaches. He doesn't just come out and say it, but he wants all to understand. Usually only about one in ten get it though. How much are we like these lepers? Are we not all unclean before God? What will make us whole?

stillwater wrote: Everything I am reading about legal administrators indicates they are made so by their own connection to heaven, not by the ordination of another man.

The kingdom of God was set up on the earth from the days of Adam to the present time, whenever there has been a righteous man on earth unto whom God revealed His word and gave power and authority to administer in His name. And where there is a priest of God—a minister who has power and authority from God to administer in the ordinances of the gospel and officiate in the priesthood of God—there is the kingdom of God.
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith (1976), 271

10 Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish; - Alma 13

27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,

28 It being after the order of the Son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;

29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name. -JST Gen 14

QUESTIONS:

If that is the case, then what are we to make of earthly ordinations such as those performed by Adam for his descendants as recorded in DC 107:42-50?

What about Abraham, who received the priesthood from Melchizedek? (DC 84:14)

Were these men, who were ordained by other men, legal administrators just like Adam and Melchizedek?

Was adam commanded to perform those ordinations "by prophecy and revelation", so it's the same as if God performed the ordination? (Articles of Faith 5, DC1:38)

Is that why Adam's descendants weren't all ordained at age 18? (Malaleel wasn't ordained until after his son, grandson, and great grandson had been ordained, and he was 496 years old. His grandson Enoch was only 25 years old when he was ordained.)

I believe that when God instructs someone to ordain an individual that it is still being requested to be done visually for the sake of pointing to the spiritual. Even if there aren't any others around, the ordaining can still take place without a human go between.

What implications does that have for us?

I wasn't ordained by prophecy and revelation. I was ordained because I was 12 and 18 years old. Same with the man who ordained me. Does that mean I have to press forward and obtain my own "dispensation" of the priesthood before I am a legal administrator? What of the ordinances I performed?

It may certainly be alarming when we first become aware of these things. We are flooded with all types of emotions as we come to grips with our new understanding. It is no surprise that we can only learn line upon line. When we have something this big brought to our spirit's attention, it is easy to be overcome by it. Yet, this is a major step in our awakening. Meanwhile, it is in the understanding that EVERYTHING done physically is still only symbolic which can comfort us and help us to see its importance. The ultimate legal administrator---God---is the one who has the power to make it so. Even a legal administrative representative receives that power from God and can then pass it on. Those who do not actually hold that power (even though they believe that they do) cannot prevent God from being the one who personally passes along the power to the intended receiver WHEN the receiver is actually ready and qualified to receive it. This takes place regardless of whether or not there was a human go-between.

As you have questioned your own ordination, it could be likely that only the symbolic receiving of the priesthood took place. It could also be likely that you were ready, and that you really did receive it. At the very least you had been pointed to it and believed you had received it. Surely, this would have had a beneficial result in your striving to live worthily of it. If you had not yet been worthy for it, your efforts to live righteously would certainly have proven necessary for you to actually get to the point where you were ready.

That is the beauty of having physical ordinances. It is also wherein God has established an order and method for furthering His purposes. It is a process which helps to give each of us the opportunity to prepare ourselves with a methodology designed to cover all of the bases. Even if someone is deemed either justly or unjustly to be unworthy to receive the physical ordination, it is still God who makes the ultimate determination; and someone who has not been physically ordained will still be ordained by God personally when that person is ready. Thus, literally, no one gets left out...God is fair and just; even when man screws up. When and if you do manifest its power, it will be because God administers the ordination; and not because someone laid their hands upon your head who may not have had the true power to give it to you...and regardless of whether you were actually ready to receive it. If you weren't ready, you didn't receive it. If you were, you did. We receive things when we are ready; and it is God who determines when we are ready. If you weren't ready, having gone through the physical ordination of receiving it helped to prepare you for the time you actually are ready to receive it. If you were ready, then going through the physical ordination helps you to live in a manner that you can keep it.

It is due to the conditions of being in the physical world that God gives us this extremely powerful tool of visual learning. Receiving true ordination can happen with God directly doing the ordination; or through someone He has ordained to have that power—and then in accordance with when He tells them directly to ordain another who is ready (as, for instance, with Adam and his son); or it could appear to us that someone has received ordination even when someone who doesn’t have the power to do it(at which time the ordination is then actually being accomplished directly through God as the heavenly legal administrator). An “illegal” administrator (if you will), cannot prevent God from being the direct legal administrator of an ordinance. As such, we can be fooled. The ordination may actually have taken place; but not in the manner we thought. Likewise, we can think an ordination has taken place because the proper methodology was use; but, in fact, it has not taken place. This is where looking for the fruit becomes important. If there are no manifestations; then the ordination did not take place. If there are manifestations, it did take place.

Some would argue "well do you have the gift of the holy ghost? Then the melchizedek priesthood must be active.". But the power of the Holy Ghost is

the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. -1Nephi 13:14

But if that's the case, then why would Christ's servants need to be ordained to give it, both in the NT and in 3Nephi?

Again, the importance of the tool of visually receiving remains an aggressively effective tool for the physical realm. It is not so much for the person who already has benefitted from the actualization of the power wherein the fruit is being manifested; but is for the benefit of the onlooker and the participant in the ordination methodology who has not yet achieved that point of progression in their journey. Everything that we do is not only for own personal progression; we also do what we do for the benefit of others in their personal progression. This is what makes up the order of things.

Is the power to give the gift of the HG the same as the Melchizedek priesthood, or have we just assumed so? Joseph and Oliver received the Holy Ghost immediately after baptism, after all, though they were told they didn't have the authority to give it yet.

I need to ponder this one.

hyloglyph wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
I will take a stab at this. This is in keeping with Jesus' teaching the masses to continue to do what the scribes and Pharisees taught them to do; but to NOT do what the scribes and Pharisees were doing. Now, even though there were no legal administrators, ALL law is still purposed to point us to God. The particular law which the people were following at that time was the Law of Moses---and even in its corrupted condition of having become the commandments of men, it was still the law they followed. As such, it still had the ability to point them to God. And because it was the Law of Moses they followed, the law required that the 10 lepers follow certain procedures.

I believe that Jesus wanted them to continue the outward appearance for following the law which His sacrifice would later fulfill; though their actions in doing so had no actual effect on the spiritual aspect of their journey.

Stillwater, I am very much enjoying and appreciating your posts!

Funny I was just thinking about this story this week!

The one leper that returned and gave thanks actually never went to the priests. As he was on his way to the preists, he saw he was healed, and returned to thank Jesus personally. Then Jesus just told him to go on his way! No need for the ceremony! And Jesus inquired about the other 9 because he was hoping that they would be able to just do without the ceremony too. Because you seriously are missing the point if you think the ceremony is still needed while you have the Lord there himself.


14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the apriests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.


See my whole life I have missed the point of the story! Jesus told them to see the priests because He was going to heal them, and at the time, any leper who got better, had to do a ritual cleansing ceremony, administered by the priests in order to thank the Lord.

Well the one out of the nine who is the star of the story realized after he was healed, why go do a ritual to thank the Lord, when I can do it in person!? Jesus saw that, and sent him on his way-- no ceremony!

It took me most of my life, as well. This is a major breakthrough in our spirit's ability to understand spiritually!! The scriptures come alive with layers and layers of understanding; and we feast! Thank you very much for sharing this edification!

Edited to add: BTW, it was no coincidence that you were just thinking about this story this week.

jo1952 wrote: Edited to add: BTW, it was no coincidence that you were just thinking about this story this week.

Ben McClintock wrote:

Franktalk wrote:
You of course know this. But I thought I would post this for those who worship prophets.

UnChristlike ad homonym straw man

Straw man, maybe. UnChristlike, no way. Christ went out of His way to be critical of the religious leaders of His day. He also pointed out when the masses were not following Moses. He also corrected their interpretation of scripture and prioritized the commandments. Now you may disagree with my assessment of current leaders and doctrine, but I am following Christ as an example.

.

Facing East wrote:

stillwater wrote: If we don't need an earthly legal administrator to perform ordinances, and we simply seek God to ratify any performance, then why did Joseph Smith write and say so much about earthly legal administrators?

If Seek the Truth is right, and the ordinations within the church confer authority to men as "legal administrators," then why doesn't our system of ordination bear any resemblance to God's system in the scriptures?

That's the paradox I was trying to unravel in my list of questions above. It is the source of some cognitive dissonance in me right now, and that is a feeling I now run towards, rather than from.

Yes, THIS. It's been on my mind. Obviously other people can help us on our path, but why would it be set up as a necessity?

This seems to be something that is on many posters minds. Since I don't believe in coincidences, I believe that many of us are being led to this for a purpose.

Franktalk is in the process of putting together a study of D&C 84. It is already turning out to be eye-opening. And it helps to clarify the Legal Administrator questions we are struggling with. We are seeing things we just never saw before. Hopefully, he will be prepared to post concerning the first quarter or so of the verses tomorrow afternoon, as he has things to do in the morning.

He has chosen to place the thread in the Private Discussion area.

Thanks for the bump, I missed this somehow.

First, why was only one JS statement on legal administrators posted? There were several.

stillwater wrote: If Seek the Truth is right, and the ordinations within the church confer authority to men as "legal adminstrators," then why doesn't our system of ordination bear any resemblance to God's system in the scriptures?

What do you mean by this.

To save time, if you want understand the topic then please read ALL the statements in tpjs index "legal administrator" and "kingdom of God" and then reread D&C 107. Most of these issues will then be resolved.

ajax wrote: Who is the legal administrator for the poor if they go to the mountain top?

Heavenly beings if there are none in the flesh.

Seek the Truth wrote:

stillwater wrote: If Seek the Truth is right, and the ordinations within the church confer authority to men as "legal adminstrators," then why doesn't our system of ordination bear any resemblance to God's system in the scriptures?

What do you mean by this.

We ordain people by age and by their meeting a minimum standard of outward worthiness (or rather, by their stating that they meet that standard. They sometimes do not)

In the scriptures (DC 107, for instance) there is clearly no standard age for ordination. Adam ordained his descendants as directed by God, by prophecy and by revelation.

We claim to confer a "priesthood after the order of the son of God", which we call the Melchizedek priesthood. In the scriptures (Alma 13) this priesthood was conferred by God upon men who had "exercised exceedingly great faith" and done "good works," who didn't "reject the Spirit of God" and had "repented" and "worked righteousness" and were "sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb," and "entered into the rest of the Lord". Their calling was then "to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest."

We call our priesthood by the same name, but require only that the man be a minimum age (unheard of in scripture) and that they claim to be worthy (very different than actually being worthy). The scriptural system requires ordination "by prophecy and by revelation". Ours does not.

Instead, we have crafted a new (unscriptural) theology of gradually increasing "priesthood power" so that we can feel ok about a system of ordination that has a form of godliness but no power of godliness (by the strict standard of DC 84).

stillwater wrote: We ordain people by age and by their meeting a minimum standard of outward worthiness (or rather, by their stating that they meet that standard. They sometimes do not)

In the scriptures (DC 107, for instance) there is clearly no standard age for ordination. Adam ordained his descendants as directed by God, by prophecy and by revelation.

We claim to confer a "priesthood after the order of the son of God", which we call the Melchizedek priesthood. In the scriptures (Alma 13) this priesthood was conferred by God upon men who had "exercised exceedingly great faith" and done "good works," who didn't "reject the Spirit of God" and had "repented" and "worked righteousness" and were "sanctified, and their garments were washed white through the blood of the Lamb," and "entered into the rest of the Lord". Their calling was then "to teach his commandments unto the children of men, that they also might enter into his rest."

We call our priesthood by the same name, but require only that the man be a minimum age (unheard of in scripture) and that they claim to be worthy (very different than actually being worthy). The scriptural system requires ordination "by prophecy and by revelation". Ours does not.

Instead, we have crafted a new (unscriptural) theology of gradually increasing "priesthood power" so that we can feel ok about a system of ordination that has a form of godliness but no power of godliness (by the strict standard of DC 84).

I'm sorry, this is incredibly difficult to decipher. It would seem that Joseph Smith would be at odds with your standards here, he ordained lots of guys to the priesthood who by no means would pass the test it appears you are applying via Alma 13. We could go into the underbelly of who Joseph ordained if you want to, but I would prefer not.

As to ages what is the problem with continuing revelation. I presume that you object to the age of 8 for baptism because Jesus waited until he was 30? I don't follow.

God Bless.

Seek the Truth wrote: I'm sorry, this is incredibly difficult to decipher. It would seem that Joseph Smith would be at odds with your standards here, he ordained lots of guys to the priesthood who by no means would pass the test it appears you are applying via Alma 13. We could go into the underbelly of who Joseph ordained if you want to, but I would prefer not.

As to ages what is the problem with continuing revelation. I presume that you object to the age of 8 for baptism because Jesus waited until he was 30? I don't follow.

I'm quite familiar with the history of the church, including the fact that Joseph ordained people to the priesthood. If you'll look at my original response I was making an honest effort to understand the interplay between earthly ordinations and heavenly conferral of priesthood. We certainly have the earthly ordinations down, but, as Elder Packer says, we have "raced far ahead," in that respect, of receiving priesthood from heaven.

I'm not arguing against earthly ordination. I'm simply agreeing with Elder Packer, but in different terms. He used the term "power of the priesthood". I choose instead to use the terms and conditions in Alma 13 and JST Gen 14. I feel I have good reason for doing so.

I will restate my questions, which are not to you but rather to God:

• At what point is one considered a "legal administrator"?
  
  Is it when they have had an earthly ordination, by being the required age and passing a bishop's and SP interview?
  
  Is it when they have had an earthly ordination as a result of true repentance and earnest seeking, and their bishop and stake president have truly received the approval of the Holy Ghost?
  
  Is it when they thereafter magnify their calling, are true and faithful in all things, and are chosen, called up to the presence of God, and anointed a priest by God himself, who swears with an oath and covenant that He will not break?
  
  Is that the same process described by Alma in his sermon: namely repentance, exceeding faith, not rejecting the Spirit of God, working righteousness, having your garments washed white through the blood of the Lamb, and entering into the rest of the Lord?
  
  If the requirements in the last two questions were considered absolute necessities for "being called after the Order of the Son of God" in the scriptures, can we reasonably say we are after that order if we have not walked that path?

I am aware of Joseph's ordaining of brethren. I'm also aware that the scriptures I'm using to understand the requirements for obtaining "the Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God" were produced by Joseph. I see evidence of Joseph ordaining people. I don't see evidence of him cancelling the requirements in the scriptures he dictated.