LDS Freedom Forum

It seems that most or at least many are talking past one another, not realizing that we might be agreeing on the same things, but from differing perspectives. Perhaps we can begin to build on common ground and begin to understand each other and go from there. That said, I'd like to begin here. The following scripture is the basis of this poll.

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God...

coachmarc wrote:It seems that most or at least many are talking past one another, not realizing that we might be agreeing on the same things, but from differing perspectives. Perhaps we can begin to build on common ground and begin to understand each other and go from there. That said, I'd like to begin here. The following scripture is the basis of this poll.

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God...

Not to ruin your poll here coachmarc but I think anyone who has studied the writings of the Prophets and the scriptures would know that the reality of these sacred opportunities are available to all the Saints regardless of their station or calling. I honestly dont think it is a matter of talking past each other when it comes to many of the discussions here on this forum about these sacred and important things. I have noticed however that some here who have made these doctrines a matter of significant study seem to use their knowledge and discovery as a wedge against the mainstream church and in fact often belittle and critisize the church and its leaders for not going into depth on these subjects or teaching them as openly as they think they should be doing. It is so ironic to me that when talking about connecting personally with The Lord in a spirit of at-one-ment some actually create a division among themselves with the body of Saints and practice the antithesis of what The Lord is trying to accomplish with his Saints in bringing them together in a zion like attitude toward each other. As Pres. Benson said in his landmark talk on Pride:

"Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)"

I am sure that the closer we become to connecting intimating and personally with the Savior the more the adversary will work on us to get us to elevate ourselves above others and practice this enmity toward those around us who may not seek after these sacred experiences to the degree that we might desire to do for ourselves. If we fall for this insidious trap created by the adversary he can do great damage to us spiritually and this can create a potential for deception and a great stumbling block for us in our pursuit of Zion as Pres. Benson testified. I have seen it happen and know how easily it can occur if we do not check ourselves constantly and desire charity above all.

Joseph Smith said that not only is the 'calling & election' available to all but also that anyone can receive the sealing power from God:

"Make your calling and election sure go on from grace to grace untill you obtain a promise from God for yourselves that you shall have eternal life. this is eternal life to know God and his son Jesus Christ, it is to be sealed up unto eternal life and obtain a promise for our posterity. Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, this is the power of Elijah to seal or bind or turn the hearts of the fathers to their children.."

"I wish you to understand this subject for it is important & if you will receive it this is the spirit of Elijah that we redeam our dead & connect ourselves with our fathers which are in heaven & seal up our dead to come forth in the first resurrection & here we want the power of Elijah to seal those who dwell on earth to those which dwell in heaven this is the power of Elijah & the keys of the Kingdom of Jehovah. Let us suppose a case; suppose the great God who dwells in heaven should reveal himself to Father Cutler here by the opening heavens and tell him I offer up a decree that whatsoever you seal on earth with your decree I will seal it in heaven, you have power then, can it be taken of[f] No, Then what you seal on earth by the Keys of Elijah is sealed in heaven, & this is the power of Elijah, & this is the difference between the spirit & power of Elias and Elijah, for while the spirit of Elias is a forerunner the power of Elijah is sufficient to make our calling & Election sure, 20 & the same doctrin whare we are exhorted to go on unto perfection"

By the way coachmarc here is excerpts from a talk from Pres. Kimball that you might enjoy. The Brethren want us to enjoy all the blessings The Lord invites us all to experience.

http://toadland.net/1er/way/Kimball_face.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

keep the faith wrote:
Not to ruin your poll here coachmarc but I think anyone who has studied the writings of the Prophets and the scriptures would know that the reality of these sacred opportunities are available to all the Saints regardless of their station or calling. I honestly dont think it is a matter of talking past each other when it comes to many of the discussions here on this forum about these sacred and important things. I have noticed however that some here who have made these doctrines a matter of significant study seem to use their knowledge and discovery as a wedge against the mainstream church and in fact often belittle and critisize the church and its leaders for not going into depth on these subjects or teaching them as openly as they think they should be doing. It is so ironic to me that when talking about connecting personally with The Lord in a spirit of at-one-ment some actually create a division among themselves with the body of Saints and practice the antithesis of what The Lord is trying to accomplish with his Saints in bringing them together in a zion like attitude toward each other. As Pres. Benson said in his landmark talk on Pride:

"Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)"

I am sure that the closer we become to connecting intimating and personally with the Savior the more the adversary will work on us to get us to elevate ourselves above others and practice this enmity toward those around us who may not seek after these sacred experiences to the degree that we might desire to do for ourselves. If we fall for this insidious trap created by the adversary he can do great damage to us spiritually and this can create a potential for deception and a great stumbling block for us in our pursuit of Zion as Pres. Benson testified. I have seen it happen and know how easily it can occur if we do not check ourselves constantly and desire charity above all.

I agree with KTF that I haven't seen many (anyone to my knowledge) claim that such blessings are reserved for hierarchy. I definitely wish the principles had been taught to me in greater plainness (by people who had actually had the experience), but every mention of the doctrine that I ever came across in my upbringing made it clear that was an invitation open to all.

The thing keeping me from seeing clearly was that much of the discussion about the principle, by well meaning but unqualified teachers, made this blessing seem like a 'bonus,' or 'cherry on top' kind of thing, rather than the essential step Joseph Smith taught it was. Since seeing it as the Lord's standard way, rather than an alternate way for extra-righteous people, has been an eye opener. Also recognizing role the power of the Holy Ghost in that process. It's not about my own obedience to a set of rules. It's about me eating the body of Christ and drinking his blood by receiving his words as he received the Father's (John 6). Big Eye Opener!

KTF, I take your warnings about pride to heart. Fortunately I have nothing to be proud of right now. The first glimmers of light have only served to show me how blind I am and have been. I have found my heart drawn out in love and patience for all my brothers and sisters. I think, from some of my comments, that you would include me in the group of those who "elevate ourselves above others and practice this enmity toward those around us who may not seek after these sacred experiences to the degree that we might desire to do for ourselves." I am ever watchful for that impulse in myself, and stamp it out whenever I find it. Thanks for the reminder.

keep the faith, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Furthermore, I look forward to reading that article in your second post. I hope and pray that I can express myself without stumbling. I can see why you say that some use their knowledge to drive a wedge against the church. Perhaps this is part of our human frailty and also part of our journey in stripping ourselves of all ungodliness as King Benjamin admonishes. Truly we cannot see Christ as He is until we are like Him. I know I have yet some distance to travel. I will, however, testify that I have tasted of His goodness and have experienced a small number of His tender mercies, which is why I voted yes. I would be happy to share personal experiences with you privately if you would like to hear more.

That said, I think part of all our disputations is a result of growing pains. We are all experiencing new things. And In our exuberance to share them, we are running around in shoes that we are still growing into. And we flop around clumsily. The city of Enoch matured over a period of 365 years before it was received up into heaven. What if we began now to toss this wedge aside. What if one by one we began undertaking this journey together, building on common ground, stripping ourselves of unbelief, of untruths, however painful they may be to our souls. Rather than fight and argue, why not use all that energy to grow together and celebrate our progress, no matter where along the path any of us are.

We are all holding to the same iron rod. Then let us move forward together. This forum is the only place on earth that I have seen this many people come together to discuss, argue, debate, or agree on the same things. But it's on the table and we are addressing it! Perhaps the people of Enoch also struggled to become one as we are struggling to become one, as the saints of Joseph Smith's day struggled to become one. Enoch proved that it can be done. We are proving it again that it can be done. I find this a very exciting thing! It warms my heart and fills my soul with anxiety. And happiness. And soon, each of us will come to the end of the iron rod, and as Nephi wrote, fall down at the tree of life and taste of the fruit and become encircled about in our Savior's embrace as we part the veil.

For some of us, this is brand new information. It's a paradigm shift. It is further light and knowledge. It is a wake up call. But what if we all come together now and move forward together. Jesus Christ will not return until New Jerusalem is built. New Jerusalem will not be built and Enoch return until we are a Zion people. We cannot be a Zion people until we are Zion individuals. Then let us begin to be one. Let's iron out our differences of opinions, toss out all untruths, cast away all our unbeliefs and begin edifying one another. If not now, when?

I know pride is a killer. D&C 121 is very plain it telling us why people are called but not chosen. It is for two reasons. One, their hearts are set upon the things of the world and two, they aspire to the honors of men. Self aggrandizement. The Spirit cannot be fooled. Anyone with either of these in their hearts cannot fool God and receive any gifts. Believe, me I have been through my trials by fire. And I am still learning. We all are. So let us all strip ourselves of all ungodliness, one layer at a time and help each other along the way, exercising faith, hope and charity. Charity is the glue that binds our faith and hope together. As we progress, without the charity to love one another and not lift ourselves up in pride against another, we can't be Zion individuals. So let's start now. Let's practice now being of one heart and one mind (Moses 7:18) until we get it right.

coachmarc wrote:keep the faith, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Furthermore, I look forward to reading that article in your second post. I hope and pray that I can express myself without stumbling. I can see why you say that some use their knowledge to drive a wedge against the church. Perhaps this is part of our human frailty and also part of our journey in stripping ourselves of all ungodliness as King Benjamin admonishes. Truly we cannot see Christ as He is until we are like Him. I know I have yet some distance to travel. I will, however, testify that I have tasted of His goodness and have experienced a small number of His tender mercies, which is why I voted yes. I would be happy to share personal experiences with you privately if you would like to hear more.

That said, I think part of all our disputations is a result of growing pains. We are all experiencing new things. And In our exuberance to share them, we are running around in shoes that we are still growing into. And we flop around clumsily. The city of Enoch matured over a period of 365 years before it was received up into heaven. What if we began now to toss this wedge aside. What if one by one we began undertaking this journey together, building on common ground, stripping ourselves of unbelief, of untruths, however painful they may be to our souls. Rather than fight and argue, why not use all that energy to grow together and celebrate our progress, no matter where along the path any of us are.

We are all holding to the same iron rod. Then let us move forward together. This forum is the only place on earth that I have seen this many people come together to discuss, argue, debate, or agree on the same things. But it's on the table and we are addressing it! Perhaps the people of Enoch also struggled to become one as we are struggling to become one, as the saints of Joseph Smith's day struggled to become one. Enoch proved that it can be done. We are proving it again that it can be done. I find this a very exciting thing! It warms my heart and fills my soul with anxiety. And happiness. And soon, each of us will come to the end of the iron rod, and as Nephi wrote, fall down at the tree of life and taste of the fruit and become encircled about in our Savior's embrace as we part the veil.

For some of us, this is brand new information. It's a paradigm shift. It is further light and knowledge. It is a wake up call. But what if we all come together now and move forward together. Jesus Christ will not return until New Jerusalem is built. New Jerusalem will not be built and Enoch return until we are a Zion people. We cannot be a Zion people until we are Zion individuals. Then let us begin to be one. Let's iron out our differences of opinions, toss out all untruths, cast away all our unbeliefs and begin edifying one another. If not now, when?

I know pride is a killer. D&C 121 is very plain it telling us why people are called but not chosen. It is for two reasons. One, their hearts are set upon the things of the world and two, they aspire to the honors of men. Self aggrandizement. The Spirit cannot be fooled. Anyone with either of these in their hearts cannot fool God and receive any gifts. Believe, me I have been through my trials by fire. And I am still learning. We all are. So let us all strip ourselves of all ungodliness, one layer at a time and help each other along the way, exercising faith, hope and charity. Charity is the glue that binds our faith and hope together. As we progress, without the charity to love one another and not lift ourselves up in pride against another, we can't be Zion individuals. So let's start now. Let's practice now being of one heart and one mind (Moses 7:18) until we get it right.

It is uplifting posts like this that keep me coming to this forum. Wonderfully articulated coachmarc. I just finished John Pontius book on following the light of Christ into his presence which by the way I HIGHLY recommend and he has a wonderful chapter on Lehi's dream and the componenets thereof such as the iron rod. You would love the book coachmarc. You can get it electronically on Amazon for much less money. I would love ot discuss it with you or any who read it anytime. Thanks again for the good spirit you created.

Thank you! I have that book. ;)

Yes, Coachmarc, you lead by example with kind words and gentle persuasion.

keep the faith wrote:

coachmarc wrote:It seems that most or at least many are talking past one another, not realizing that we might be agreeing on the same things, but from differing perspectives. Perhaps we can begin to build on common ground and begin to understand each other and go from there. That said, I'd like to begin here. The following scripture is the basis of this poll.

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God...

Not to ruin your poll here coachmarc but I think anyone who has studied the writings of the Prophets and the scriptures would know that the reality of these sacred opportunities are available to all the Saints regardless of their station or calling. I honestly dont think it is a matter of talking past each other when it comes to many of the discussions here on this forum about these sacred and important things. I have noticed however that some here who have made these doctrines a matter of significant study seem to use their knowledge and discovery as a wedge against the mainstream church and in fact often belittle and critisize the church and its leaders for not going into depth on these subjects or teaching them as openly as they think they should be doing. It is so ironic to me that when talking about connecting personally with The Lord in a spirit of at-one-ment some actually create a division among themselves with the body of Saints and practice the antithesis of what The Lord is trying to accomplish with his Saints in bringing them together in a zion like attitude toward each other. As Pres. Benson said in his landmark talk on Pride:

"Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)"

I am sure that the closer we become to connecting intimating and personally with the Savior the more the adversary will work on us to get us to elevate ourselves above others and practice this enmity toward those around us who may not seek after these sacred experiences to the degree that we might desire to do for ourselves. If we fall for this insidious trap created by the adversary he can do great damage to us spiritually and this can create a potential for deception and a great stumbling block for us in our pursuit of Zion as Pres. Benson testified. I have seen it happen and know how easily it can occur if we do not check ourselves constantly and desire charity above all.

Beautifully articulated.

We see this all around us. We see the worst possible motives in those that we disagree with rather than seeing that there are possible good motives, and in all honestly I think usually this is the case.

Pro-life people see their foes as baby killers rather than understanding that (for most of them) they truly have been conditioned to see the baby as nothing more than a tissue mass. Pro-abortion people see their enemies as people that want to exert dominion over women and not let them control their bodies. It goes on and on regarding all the issues that we divide ourselves over.

Within the church we all have our sacred cows and our priorities, and even among our brothers and sisters we do not cut them much slack if their priorities do not align with our own. Rather than celebrating how we come together as DIFFERENT members of the body, we indeed tend to think everyone should be worshipping exactly as we are, or they are apostate. Isn't it awesome that we have some that are fully gung ho over scouting or young women, others may focus on temple work or indexing. Others may be into preparedness, or just being good neighbors. Some may not enjoy meetings and still be very focused on personal study and developing their relationship with the savior.

You expressed it so much better than I am. We definitely need to overcome this desire to elevate ourselves by pointing out how wrong everyone else is.

Original_Intent wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

coachmarc wrote:It seems that most or at least many are talking past one another, not realizing that we might be agreeing on the same things, but from differing perspectives. Perhaps we can begin to build on common ground and begin to understand each other and go from there. That said, I'd like to begin here. The following scripture is the basis of this poll.

D&C 76:50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—

51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—

52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;

53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.

54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.

55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—

56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;

57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.

58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God...

Not to ruin your poll here coachmarc but I think anyone who has studied the writings of the Prophets and the scriptures would know that the reality of these sacred opportunities are available to all the Saints regardless of their station or calling. I honestly dont think it is a matter of talking past each other when it comes to many of the discussions here on this forum about these sacred and important things. I have noticed however that some here who have made these doctrines a matter of significant study seem to use their knowledge and discovery as a wedge against the mainstream church and in fact often belittle and critisize the church and its leaders for not going into depth on these subjects or teaching them as openly as they think they should be doing. It is so ironic to me that when talking about connecting personally with The Lord in a spirit of at-one-ment some actually create a division among themselves with the body of Saints and practice the antithesis of what The Lord is trying to accomplish with his Saints in bringing them together in a zion like attitude toward each other. As Pres. Benson said in his landmark talk on Pride:

"Another major portion of this very prevalent sin of pride is enmity toward our fellowmen. We are tempted daily to elevate ourselves above others and diminish them. (See Hel. 6:17; D&C 58:41.)

The proud make every man their adversary by pitting their intellects, opinions, works, wealth, talents, or any other worldly measuring device against others. In the words of C. S. Lewis: “Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man. … It is the comparison that makes you proud: the pleasure of being above the rest. Once the element of competition has gone, pride has gone.” (Mere Christianity, New York: Macmillan, 1952, pp. 109–10.)"

I am sure that the closer we become to connecting intimating and personally with the Savior the more the adversary will work on us to get us to elevate ourselves above others and practice this enmity toward those around us who may not seek after these sacred experiences to the degree that we might desire to do for ourselves. If we fall for this insidious trap created by the adversary he can do great damage to us spiritually and this can create a potential for deception and a great stumbling block for us in our pursuit of Zion as Pres. Benson testified. I have seen it happen and know how easily it can occur if we do not check ourselves constantly and desire charity above all.

Beautifully articulated.

We see this all around us. We see the worst possible motives in those that we disagree with rather than seeing that there are possible good motives, and in all honestly I think usually this is the case.

Pro-life people see their foes as baby killers rather than understanding that (for most of them) they truly have been conditioned to see the baby as nothing more than a tissue mass. Pro-abortion people see their enemies as people that want to exert dominion over women and not let them control their bodies. It goes on and on regarding all the issues that we divide ourselves over.

Within the church we all have our sacred cows and our priorities, and even among our brothers and sisters we do not cut them much slack if their priorities do not align with our own. Rather than celebrating how we come together as DIFFERENT members of the body, we indeed tend to think everyone should be worshipping exactly as we are, or they are apostate. Isn't it awesome that we have some that are fully gung ho over scouting or young women, others may focus on temple work or indexing. Others may be into preparedness, or just being good neighbors. Some may not enjoy meetings and still be very focused on personal study and developing their relationship with the savior.

You expressed it so much better than I am. We definitely need to overcome this desire to elevate ourselves by pointing out how wrong everyone else is.

Very much appreciated thoughts Original Intent. "But for the grace of God go I." Moses experience after being in the presence of the Lord and then having that presence withdrawn from him is something we should constantly reflect upon.

10 And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength like unto man; and he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.

Years ago when I first became of what C&E was, I asked our Bishop what he thought about it and he told me "I don't think as many people as you think have had it."
Shortly after, I had the opportunity to ask the Stake President the same thing and he said "I think more people have had it than you think."

coachmarc wrote:keep the faith, thank you for your thoughtful reply. Furthermore, I look forward to reading that article in your second post. I hope and pray that I can express myself without stumbling. I can see why you say that some use their knowledge to drive a wedge against the church. Perhaps this is part of our human frailty and also part of our journey in stripping ourselves of all ungodliness as King Benjamin admonishes. Truly we cannot see Christ as He is until we are like Him. I know I have yet some distance to travel. I will, however, testify that I have tasted of His goodness and have experienced a small number of His tender mercies, which is why I voted yes. I would be happy to share personal experiences with you privately if you would like to hear more.

That said, I think part of all our disputations is a result of growing pains. We are all experiencing new things. And In our exuberance to share them, we are running around in shoes that we are still growing into. And we flop around clumsily. The city of Enoch matured over a period of 365 years before it was received up into heaven. What if we began now to toss this wedge aside. What if one by one we began undertaking this journey together, building on common ground, stripping ourselves of unbelief, of untruths, however painful they may be to our souls. Rather than fight and argue, why not use all that energy to grow together and celebrate our progress, no matter where along the path any of us are.

We are all holding to the same iron rod. Then let us move forward together. This forum is the only place on earth that I have seen this many people come together to discuss, argue, debate, or agree on the same things. But it's on the table and we are addressing it! Perhaps the people of Enoch also struggled to become one as we are struggling to become one, as the saints of Joseph Smith's day struggled to become one. Enoch proved that it can be done. We are proving it again that it can be done. I find this a very exciting thing! It warms my heart and fills my soul with anxiety. And happiness. And soon, each of us will come to the end of the iron rod, and as Nephi wrote, fall down at the tree of life and taste of the fruit and become encircled about in our Savior's embrace as we part the veil.

For some of us, this is brand new information. It's a paradigm shift. It is further light and knowledge. It is a wake up call. But what if we all come together now and move forward together. Jesus Christ will not return until New Jerusalem is built. New Jerusalem will not be built and Enoch return until we are a Zion people. We cannot be a Zion people until we are Zion individuals. Then let us begin to be one. Let's iron out our differences of opinions, toss out all untruths, cast away all our unbeliefs and begin edifying one another. If not now, when?

I know pride is a killer. D&C 121 is very plain it telling us why people are called but not chosen. It is for two reasons. One, their hearts are set upon the things of the world and two, they aspire to the honors of men. Self aggrandizement. The Spirit cannot be fooled. Anyone with either of these in their hearts cannot fool God and receive any gifts. Believe, me I have been through my trials by fire. And I am still learning. We all are. So let us all strip ourselves of all ungodliness, one layer at a time and help each other along the way, exercising faith, hope and charity. Charity is the glue that binds our faith and hope together. As we progress, without the charity to love one another and not lift ourselves up in pride against another, we can't be Zion individuals. So let's start now. Let's practice now being of one heart and one mind (Moses 7:18) until we get it right.

Beautiful!

so glad were at 100%.
for decades i woulda voted the other way.

thank u Denver, Ponitus, Blaine Yorgeson et al.

njb

notjamesbond003.5 wrote:so glad were at 100%.
for decades i woulda voted the other way.

thank u Denver, Ponitus, Blaine Yorgeson et al.

njb

Well, considering that there are already about 250 views, maybe I should have entered an 'I don't know' option. It's ok. I've noticed that today, people are kinder on this forum. I think it's important to keep this poll up and discussing this. The important thing is to keep learning and asking questions, especially to understand the context of what some people are saying. We tend to fit someone's paradigm into our own context and it doesn't work. Seeking clarification is always more edifying and validates one another's feelings and brings us all closer together.

keep the faith wrote:By the way coachmarc here is excerpts from a talk from Pres. Kimball that you might enjoy. The Brethren want us to enjoy all the blessings The Lord invites us all to experience.

http://toadland.net/1er/way/Kimball_face.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you for sharing that. I do believe I've read it before. Here is a general conference talk given by President Marion G. Romney in 1977, which also addresses our topic. I know quite a few folks here have read it already, but I think there are still many who haven't:

The Light of Christ

I have absolutely no doubt that the Lord wants to answer our prayers. He wants to bless us with the things that we righteously seek, but He also wants to give SO much more, even so much more than we think we think we are worthy of receiving. I have no doubt that the answers are all yes, but I also know that we must be prepared properly to receive them. And sometimes, He does prepare us in ways we are not expecting--trials by fire. I lost my home, closed my business, and learned some hard lessons about life. I was very worldly and sought the honors of men. I was making a name for myself in my business, too. But I had forgotten about a small, but very sincere desire that I had expressed when I was a young missionary. Little did I know that I would experience the growing pains involved with receiving my answer and then some over the course of the next twenty years.

I truly believe that Zion is closer than we think!

One more post from me on this subject and perhaps I will be still for a time. I shared this elsewhere, but it is relevant to this topic. What if we had been given more than the first four principles of the gospel (article of faith 4)? What if Joseph Smith had published the first, say, ten articles of faith? What would it look like? Perhaps something like this?

1. Faith
2. Repentance
3. Baptism
4. Gift of the Holy Ghost
5. Rebirth (receiving the Holy Ghost/mighty change of heart/Alma 5)
6. Washing & Anointing
7. Endowments
8. Calling & Election
9. Second Comforter
10. Translation

There are more. The second anointing was also mentioned as one of them in another discussion. The above might be slightly out of order or perhaps even vary from person to person. Would more members be more valiant after being baptized and confirmed members? There's more to the list than I wrote, but what if we were taught from primary age that we could part the veil and embrace our Savior, Jesus Christ? What if we were taught that there was so much more? What if there were primary songs about building New Jerusalem?

In 1874, Orson Pratt gave a discourse in Salt Lake City in the old tabernacle and expounded much about Enoch's day and of elementary principles of the plan of salvation.

"They....(Enoch's people) were instructed...God came down dwelt with that people...instructed in all His ways...learned the great doctrine and principle of translation, for that is a doctrine the same as the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, which is among the first principles of the plan of salvation: and we may also say that the doctrine of translation, which is intimately connected with that of the resurrection, is also one of the first principles of the doctrines of Christ.

So we can add resurrection to the list, too.

Journal of Discourses

If you scroll up, the discourse begins on page 145, but relevant to Enoch, toward the end of page 146 and on through 147. It would seem, and I infer this from D&C section 132, that once a doctrine or principle is taught by the Savior, that doctrine--or that law must be obeyed. It stands to reason that it must be so. But what great principles and ordinances and laws! They are glorious. Why are we not concerning ourselves with Zion? To be in the presence of our Savior--what greater endeavor is there? Or are our hearts really set upon the things of the world? Do we aspire to the honors of men? Or are we simply afraid? Is fear the enemy and opposite of faith?

What say ye?

By the power of the Holy Ghost, I know that this is true.

Moroni 7

1 And now I, Moroni, write a few of the words of my father Mormon, which he spake concerning faith, hope, and charity; for after this manner did he speak unto the people, as he taught them in the synagogue which they had built for the place of worship.

2 And now I, Mormon, speak unto you, my beloved brethren; and it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, and his holy will, because of the gift of his calling unto me, that I am permitted to speak unto you at this time.

3 Wherefore, I would speak unto you that are of the church, that are the peaceable followers of Christ, and that have obtained a sufficient hope by which ye can enter into the rest of the Lord, from this time henceforth until ye shall rest with him in heaven.

.

jump4joy wrote:As I read this, I received a powerful confirmation from the Holy Ghost of the truth of Moroni's words from head to toe. I needed to read these words today. Thank you.

And what is this this "rest of the Lord?"

D&C 84

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;

It is an invitation to do. Press forward. Seek His face. Remove yourself from the condemnation under which we all labor.

19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

It's a long and lonely path, which requires strong faith and a firm mind in every form of godliness. King Benjamin gives us a clue in verse 19 above, but the real pattern is in the Lord's sermon on the Mount give to both the Jews and to the Nephites. Be ye therefore perfect, even as Jesus Christ or His Father in Heaven is perfect.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

The quest for Zion is indeed a noble quest and as mentioned it has been tried many times… Enoch’s Zion worked and I think it is because of their scriptural commitment to their potential:

“That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:5 - 7)

“For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” … this I believe is what is holding us back individually and collectively. We’ve lost our concept of what it means to be “equal.”

It is obvious to me that it takes spiritual tenacity in the fulfillment of our individual “oneness” in divine character so that we can get into the mind set to create an earthly equality as mortals. It appears the material things of the world are distracting us from our spiritual goal.

I believe Enoch first developed a character of godliness wherein it enabled him to speak “face to face” with the Lord before he ever started teaching people about Zion equality. Our own “temple” must be in order first and we must realize that we are all potentially co-equal and co-eternal with God and each other… and that God is no respecter of persons… ought we to feel likewise if a Zion is to be built where the “pure in heart” dwell?

Can Zion be built physically first and then spiritually? No, it’s been tried and it doesn’t work… that is not what the Lord is telling me…. Try as we may it will never succeed. Zion (and the churches) needs a people who encourages “face to face” encounters with God and is no respecter of persons (religion, race etc.) … the Church (all churches) have a long way to go to get there (remember there are only two church in the world according to the BOM)… to recognize that we all truly have the potential to become as God is regardless of “organized religion” (competition) is when we can begin to see the spiritual church of the lamb of God (1 Nephi 14: 10) . Organized religion is a great vehicle to practice our “divine nature,” but when it is laced with prejudice and judgments or any other of the attributes of the carnal man, it fails to understand Zion is a place where its people earnestly seek for on a daily basis and receive their calling and election and face to face encounters with Christ and the Father.

SkyBird wrote:“That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:5 - 7)

“For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” … this I believe is what is holding us back individually and collectively. We’ve lost our concept of what it means to be “equal.”

This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. If we follow the two greatest commandments, there would be no reservations about succoring one another. There was a time when I used to be judgmental about helping someone on the street who asked for money. It is so easy to rationalize. I don't judge anyone anymore who asks for help. I don't care if they are drunk or stoned, though I am more inclined to buy them something to eat, but more often, I try to listen to the Spirit's promptings. I have bought people lunch, I have filled their tanks full, when they are asking for help at a corner gas station, stranded and hoping to make it home a few states over.

I don't say this to brag. I'd rather not even share these experiences except to make a point. Not too long ago, I was on my way to a theater to watch a movie and eat out. I came to an intersection where a man stood with a cardboard sign. He didn't look like a typical beggar. He looked just like you or me. As I sat there at the stop light, trying to listen to the Spirit's promptings, the thoughts came to my mind: You are going to the movies. You are going out to eat. You are on your way to blow a lot of money. I snapped out of it and realized my shame in even questioning whether I should help him. I quickly opened my wallet and pulled out all my money and hoped that the light wouldn't turn green yet. I rolled the window down and called him over and handed him the bills. He came over, took the money without looking at the bills and thanked me. I could sense how uncomfortable he felt just being in this predicament, whatever it was.

Truly we are not equal in all things. In order for Zion to prosper, ALL must equal in ALL things. I had money to spend, money to spare, money to burn. He didn't. For all I know, he could have been a con artist. He could also have been an angel, who I was entertaining unawares. But the point is, when all is said and done, what is the state of my heart? And this comes only with that mighty change described by Alma to the people in Zarahemla (Alma 5).

coachmarc wrote:

SkyBird wrote:“That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:5 - 7)

“For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” … this I believe is what is holding us back individually and collectively. We’ve lost our concept of what it means to be “equal.”

This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. If we follow the two greatest commandments, there would be no reservations about succoring one another. There was a time when I used to be judgmental about helping someone on the street who asked for money. It is so easy to rationalize. I don't judge anyone anymore who asks for help. I don't care if they are drunk or stoned, though I am more inclined to buy them something to eat, but more often, I try to listen to the Spirit's promptings. I have bought people lunch, I have filled their tanks full, when they are asking for help at a corner gas station, stranded and hoping to make it home a few states over.

I don't say this to brag. I'd rather not even share these experiences except to make a point. Not too long ago, I was on my way to a theater to watch a movie and eat out. I came to an intersection where a man stood with a cardboard sign. He didn't look like a typical beggar. He looked just like you or me. As I sat there at the stop light, trying to listen to the Spirit's promptings, the thoughts came to my mind: You are going to the movies. You are going out to eat. You are on your way to blow a lot of money. I snapped out of it and realized my shame in even questioning whether I should help him. I quickly opened my wallet and pulled out all my money and hoped that the light wouldn't turn green yet. I rolled the window down and called him over and handed him the bills. He came over, took the money without looking at the bills and thanked me. I could sense how uncomfortable he felt just being in this predicament, whatever it was.

Truly we are not equal in all things. In order for Zion to prosper, ALL must equal in ALL things. I had money to spend, money to spare, money to burn. He didn't. For all I know, he could have been a con artist. He could also have been an angel, who I was entertaining unawares. But the point is, when all is said and done, what is the state of my heart? And this comes only with that mighty change described by Alma to the people in Zarahemla (Alma 5).

Perhaps I can share a thought or two here that coincides with this. In section 105 the Lord makes it clear that Zion can not be built up unless the people decide to live the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom. This law requires equality and unity. That is the Lords system as has been quoted here in scripture.

Many say that we can not live consecration which is Celestial law because the church has not set up a system like was tried by the early Saints, that of the United Order. I disagree. The Lord has made it available that every Saint can live those principles of celestial law by choosing to fully live the law of tithes and offerings. I can donate my surplus to the poor and needy by way of offerings. The church is involved in humanitarian projects all over the world in many different areas of relief. If I chose to live the Lords celestial law for myself I can allow many who go hungry or have medical needs or are afflicted in so many ways to gain a step up and find relief. I do not have to wait for the church to in-act the United Order again. It is within my power to live the celestial laws now.

I read Nibleys article on What is Zion A Distant View years ago and have always greatly appreciated Brigham Young in his approach of helping the Saints see the importance of turning from Babylon and seeking to live Zion law.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... chapid=928" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have fallen short so often in allowing these Zion laws to take root in my heart and I know that is why I have not become the Zion person I would like to be. The ball is in my court to just do it. I can blame no one if I fail in this quest. Not the church. Not the Brethren. Not anyone. Only myself will be to blame if I fall short of becoming a Zion person and living these celestial laws. I consecrate to give everything I possess in the holy temples to building up the Kingdom of God on earth which is TCOJCOLDS for the establishment of Zion. I will not be prepared to receive the Lord if I do not put off Babylons call and prove to the Lord that I love Him and desire to live his Laws more than I love the world. Joseph said a man must be thoroughly proven in order for the Lord to assure him of eternal glory. My decision to live the celestial law of consecration willingly will play a big part in whether or not I can show valid proof to Him that I am indeed worthy of that promise. It is my moment of truth.

coachmarc wrote:

SkyBird wrote:“That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things.
6 For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things;
7 For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you.”
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 78:5 - 7)

“For if ye are not equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things” … this I believe is what is holding us back individually and collectively. We’ve lost our concept of what it means to be “equal.”

This is probably the most important piece of the puzzle. If we follow the two greatest commandments, there would be no reservations about succoring one another. There was a time when I used to be judgmental about helping someone on the street who asked for money. It is so easy to rationalize. I don't judge anyone anymore who asks for help. I don't care if they are drunk or stoned, though I am more inclined to buy them something to eat, but more often, I try to listen to the Spirit's promptings. I have bought people lunch, I have filled their tanks full, when they are asking for help at a corner gas station, stranded and hoping to make it home a few states over.

I don't say this to brag. I'd rather not even share these experiences except to make a point. Not too long ago, I was on my way to a theater to watch a movie and eat out. I came to an intersection where a man stood with a cardboard sign. He didn't look like a typical beggar. He looked just like you or me. As I sat there at the stop light, trying to listen to the Spirit's promptings, the thoughts came to my mind: You are going to the movies. You are going out to eat. You are on your way to blow a lot of money. I snapped out of it and realized my shame in even questioning whether I should help him. I quickly opened my wallet and pulled out all my money and hoped that the light wouldn't turn green yet. I rolled the window down and called him over and handed him the bills. He came over, took the money without looking at the bills and thanked me. I could sense how uncomfortable he felt just being in this predicament, whatever it was.

Truly we are not equal in all things. In order for Zion to prosper, ALL must equal in ALL things. I had money to spend, money to spare, money to burn. He didn't. For all I know, he could have been a con artist. He could also have been an angel, who I was entertaining unawares. But the point is, when all is said and done, what is the state of my heart? And this comes only with that mighty change described by Alma to the people in Zarahemla (Alma 5).

A thumbs-up thanks is not enough! ++++ a million!!!

keep the faith wrote:Many say that we can not live consecration which is Celestial law because the church has not set up a system like was tried by the early Saints, that of the United Order. I disagree. The Lord has made it available that every Saint can live those principles of celestial law by choosing to fully live the law of tithes and offerings. I can donate my surplus to the poor and needy by way of offerings. The church is involved in humanitarian projects all over the world in many different areas of relief. If I chose to live the Lords celestial law for myself I can allow many who go hungry or have medical needs or are afflicted in so many ways to gain a step up and find relief. I do not have to wait for the church to in-act the United Order again. It is within my power to live the celestial laws now.

Yes! Thank you for sharing this.

I just read Joseph Smith The Prophet by TGMadsen (beautifully written) and I recall one paragraph about how much Joseph helped anyone and everyone and to paraphrase, he impoverished himself in the process. I've seen vehicles with bumper stickers that say "He who dies with the most toys wins." I want to declare that he who dies poorest wins. There is a context to this and I'll let the reader ponder this. If you're not sure, then read the entire chapter of Matthew 25. There are three very important parables that are tied together. We should waste and wear out our lives not only bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, but in serving the Lord (with all our heart, might, mind and strength).