LDS Freedom Forum

Daren - I am intrigued with the information, and enjoy studying history. Like others, I ask, 'what's the point today', or 'what is the conclusion you are trying to lead us to'? I wouldn't pretend to have sufficient knowledge to challenge the history, but some of the conclusions seem stretched.

The conclusion I am making is that it is valuable to study the history behind “The Majesty of God’s Law” the history of God’s dealings with the lost 10 tribes and their application of the law in their lives.

My friend makes a much bolder conclusion, and I support that in principle, that we need to bring into our work day lives the principles that our Anglo-Saxon for-fathers lived by, to be able to live by the law today.

Our society is based on these ancient principles of our Anglo-Saxon for-fathers, the Hanseatic League, the sea laws of Wispy, the ancient value system of stocks and bonds, Judges with Juries, Guilds = United Orders, and many other things.

Our problem is that we have gone over too much to the system promoted and established by the Great and Abominable Church and many of us don’t know the difference.

As a side note, your use of Finland as an example of Germanic languages is severely flawed. It isn't Germanic nor does it have any Germanic roots. It uses a Latin alphabet only because they had no written language until they had been conquered by Europeans.

Their original verbal history does talk of them being visited and taught by God as a chosen people.

That is very arguable. Linguistically there is a common tie to north European languages, being one of the language groups in Europe.

I've studied the ancient British history enough to concur that the gospel was established and taught there, several times, and several of the ten lost tribes did settled Europe, but I would contend that the pure gospel was established first in the sixth century BC, then restored in the first century, but I see no evidence it was restored in the fifth century.
Remnants remained in the fifth century, but by then much of the higher order had been lost in the beginnings of the feudal system that perverted the pure law. Studying the writings of the Roman conquerors reveals insights into pure doctrine that they twisted in order to request additional funding. To attempt to go back to a denigrated system would be futile and useless.

I agree with everything you say, the gospel wasn’t restored in the fifth century, it's principles were working in the fifth century.

It was the filthy policy and military maneuvering of the likes of Diocletian and Constantine to assert that the catholic (Greek/Roman) system of government was the gospel of Jesus Christ, for them and other catholic leaders to try to keep that system of orthodoxy from being destroyed by the Christian system of the North.

I believe we have done the same in our day. The founding fathers were not misled but indeed established the best they could, by the hand of the Lord. Instead of resolving in righteousness the loose ends they left us, we again apostatized from the proper form of government. Had we built on that foundation we could have and perhaps would have been able to live the higher law in peace.

Benjamin Franklin said when asked what kind of government we had been given, “A Republic (a people-vote), if you can keep it.” John Adams said, "Our Constitution was made only for a religious and moral people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

Having never met, read, or studied the works of Wydner I ask a question. I followed the list till the time of Joseph Smith. What evidence do you have that "that system" is other than the gospel of Jesus Christ, as restored through Joseph Smith and the Constitution of the United States. The law of witness' requires more than assumptions.

In relation to these Ancient Customs of London and New England that were had by the Forefathers of Joseph Smith and his Associates who had been “London Free Men,” in London, or “American Free Men” in New England, the Lord said:

D&C 86:8-11. Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers- For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in God – Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my People Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.

The Church Historian, Leonard Arrington, said in his Book, “The United Order,” that the United Order of Tanners and the United Order of Tailors, in Salt Lake City, “were just a continuation of the English Guild System.”

The Church’s Membership became the pioneers, who traveled to and established Utah. And, continuing according to the Lord’s Instructions, to "continue in my goodness," the way that they "Worked Together By The Law" made so much sense in "continuing" in their Forefathers’ obviously superior, Anglo-Saxon, Christian way of Working Together.

We as individuals covenant to live the law of consecration today, right now. We will be judged on how we do that. I understand that we as a people are under condemnation for failing to live the United Order as a people, and that it was taken away for a period, but do you infer or teach that we have been misled by latter-day prophets because we didn't all move to the Mexican Colonies and continue in the united order?
No, I suggest we learn how to work together by the law. The Mexican saints just have more of it than we do.

In the end, do you teach or infer that because of these historical rights of freemen we are not obligated to abide by the law of the land? Is that a correct analysis of your posts or thread?

The history of the Anglo-Saxon culture is the basis of the Law of the Land, constitutional law. We are just confused about whether or not Greco-Roman policy is also law.

D&C 98: 6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;

How can we save the constitution if we do not know the difference between Law and Policy and if we don't know how to get us back to the Law.

Thank you for your comments and questions,
Darren

We are still trying to wake people up from a slumber, but trying to swallow everything from a genious in a short period is a bit much for me.

I believe I asked this elsewhere, but Darren have you read the little pamphlet by Skousen titled DO YOU REALLY WANT THE REST OF THE BOOK OF MORMON?

The question is, who is going to do the waking up, and when will they? I have been studying a book by Rev. Thomas Hooker “A Survey of the Summe of Church-Discipline” Published in 1648. He was trying to wake us up. Joseph Smith did so also. How many more will it take, and when, or is it just a lost cause?

I have not read that little pamphlet but I have been in the Church long enough to understand what that title is implying.

I will just keep trying, sharing, studying, and as possible doing.

Thank you for your comments,
Darren

WHO and when? Well I cant answer that question, but some of us are waking up here.

Well, I asked about the pamphlet not because I thought it would take your genious friend to get the implication in the title, but because it contains some speculation as to the contents of the rest of the scriptures.
It suggests that we need the other scriptures that tell us "complete instruction" on how to have a Zion Society.

Here is the crux of it all; getting to it after a few questions for you to think about.

1. Who will be the person(s) who will bring forward the scriptures of the Lost Ten Tribes?
The Prophet?
The General Authorities?
A (group of) Church Scholar(s) on assignment?
A band of people wandering into our midst saying that they just arrived from the center of the earth or another planet?
As part of the City of Enoch landing in the Gulf a Mexico?
Will these scriptures be found amongst ourselves, from doing our genealogy as Cleon Skousen suggested?

2. Will the Church immediately accept them?
(I am not suggesting that they would or would not be canonized at some point into the Church's cannon of scripture.)

3. How will they be implemented? By our working by those instructions as part of our everyday life as President McKay suggested?

Now to get to the point:

Bruce told me that,

“Archibald F. Bennett, the person who established so much of the Church’s Genealogy Program, was recognized as, ‘the person who knows more about Genealogy than anybody who has ever lived,’ and who assembled the greatest collection of Genealogy Records in the World (in the Church’s Granite Mountain Records Vaults), the Records of so many of the ancient Townships of the Nordic Race (into which all of the ancient ‘Commonwealths’ of Nordic Europe have always been divided), used to say that if one has all of these Records they prove that the Ancient Legends of the origin of the Law of the ancient “Commonwealths” of all of Nordic Europe are true.

He told that to our Class in a Religion Class that I took from him at BYU.

I got the idea to try to write a Doctor’s Thesis on that. I learned and professionally translated 11 Major European Languages into English in the effort to write that.”

And Bruce said that Brother Skousen relayed this conversation between him and President McKay,

“A few years ago President McKay called me into his office. (This happened in 1967.) He said, ‘Brother Skousen, our People are becoming Slaves. They are falling for the same old lures and tricks that all of the rest of the world is. Because of the work that Elder Benson and you have done for our Government, I’m giving each of you an Assignment.” “Then he said, ‘Brother Skousen, I want you to go down to Provo and work on how Our People can Work Together By The Law.’” “I said, ‘Can’t the University do it?’ He shook his head and said, ‘No, they don’t have the vision.’ Then I said, ‘But, what can I do?’ Then he prophesied to me. He said, ‘You go down there and the way will open up!” Then Cleon said, “You know, I think that this is it!” (referring to the answer that had been given in the previous Conversation by me). [This Answer had been developed somewhat from an earlier assignment given to Bruce by President Wilkinson, earlier the President of BYU, and by Hugh Nibley. President Wilkinson had pioneered the development of the BYU Law School. Bruce told him of how the Leader of the Church’s Genealogy Program had told the students, in a class that Bruce was in at BYU, that the Church’s collection of the Parish Records of Europe (the World’s Primary Collection of the Records of the “Parishes,” the “Communes,” or the “Townships” of Ancient and Medieval Northern Europe) proved that the Story of the Origin of “the Law,” as told in Iceland, of those Townships or Communes, was a true Story. President Wilkinson told Bruce to go through that with Hugh Nibley. Hugh Nibley told Bruce to “write it down.” Bruce did that, and those are Books One and Three of the Thousand-page Course.] Cleon said, “I thought that this (teaching Our People to “Work Together By The Law”) was going to have something to do with Our People getting into their Genealogies and doing their research of our Records!”

Bruce said to me that Hugh Nibley was so crushed when he read Book One of New Learning “The History of School” as it showed the nature and purpose of Nibley’s hero Socrates. He was so crushed that he would not read Book Three, “The History of Business.”

Bruce had some bad experiences at BYU in the 1970’s, he is unfortunately remembered by many from those encounters as a crack-pot. I have discovered that he is probably at least partially autistic and that he has symptoms of excessive compulsive disorder, but that does not make him a crack-pot, it just makes him a genius that is not easy to work with.

Here is a summary of what he is saying:
• The records of the Lost Ten Tribes have always been amongst us. We are the decedents of those Lost Ten Tribes and our genealogy records and the remaining ancestral histories are the remaining parts of their scriptures.
• In his study in 11 foreign languages, and being on assignment, discovered the essence of those histories that tells the story of the Lost Ten Tribes. He expanded on them into his works now available.
• He tried to apply those principles in his work-a-day life in the 1970’s and onward, sharing his perspective with others while working with languages at BYU and in Provo, and while working on his version of the BYU Machine Translation Project (the Weidner Engine, http://www.freetranslation.com), as he was introducing the “New Learning” Analysis of Languages.
• His efforts failed to teach his friends to work together by the law in their work-a-day lives because of the immediate prospects for getting rich of his companions. Bruce and his companions set up a 501 (c) (3) corporation to do all this called “The Inns of the Temple, Inc.” His companions, Weidner Communications (his brother’s company), Eyring Research, the founders of WordPerfect and Novell, left Bruce to get their monetary rewards in regard to that infusion of technology as part of the bigger BYU/Eyring effort. Bruce’s work to teach our people how to work by the law, in regard to Cleon’s assignment from President McKay, has since been stifled.

I have been sharing Bruce’s records of how to work by the law. His research that shows how to work together according to the scriptures and the “scriptures” of the Lost Ten Tribes. His research has been shared since the 1970’s, and the bulk of that research is available at http://www.brmecham.com/thousandyears/ some of the unpublished specifics of how to do that I have. It is waiting for the right people, the people who want to work (in business, our work-a-day lives) by the law.

If people are to obtain the rest of the information of how to work by the law and thereby save the constitution by the standards set up by the ancient Anglo concept of Law, it will take the most disciplined and honest of people.

Thank you for your comments and questions.
Darren

Bruce had some bad experiences at BYU in the 1970’s, he is unfortunately remembered by many from those encounters as a crack-pot. I have discovered that he is probably at least partially autistic and that he has symptoms of excessive compulsive disorder, but that does not make him a crack-pot, it just makes him a genius that is not easy to work with.

I read the first two sections of the posted link and browed the third and I must admit I fall into the group referred to in the writings themselves as asking 'What's the point" and am as it also says "received in a daze".

Having never met Bruce he may be a genius, but his work to me is a never ending patchwork of rambling historic and scriptural observations and assumptions about history and ancient European law that makes my head swim. I have no comprehension how any rational individual, living in 21st century America, could use this elaborate stack of information and effect a positive change in restoring the constitution. Perhaps I am just not one of the enlightened ones.

I for one was lost in your earlier postings. I found them interesting but found them hard to tie to things that are pertinent in today's world. Reading Bruces writings, makes yours sound simple and straight forward.

There is no possibility, in my opinion, that any group, of any size, would be able to wade through this information and then make all the same connections and assumptions he makes in his writings, then determine to effect some positive change to restore the constitution, live the gospel in its fullness, or live the law of consecration.

The Gospel of Christ is simple and yet is filled with endless truths as far as we choose to learn. The Constitution of the United States of America is simple, yet answers most of the questions about the proper role of government posed 200 years after it's creation. Children can understand the principles of both. This work, as far as I was able to read, is an attempt to show some genius, but fails.

Have we been deceived by international bankers since the 18th century? Yes, and before. Do we with European ancestry have a noble history? Yes. Are there things we could learn from history? Yes.

I believe this "genius" may have found some interesting gospel truths that were taught by the Lord and lived by the people in Europe sometime before the 12th century, but to believe that somehow these men 1800 years later still had the pure government originally given them, without apostasy from the original truths is naive. No dispensation, even Christ's was able to withstand apostasy for more than a few hundred years.

I believe this shows Bruce's ability to be excessive compulsive in tying all these random facts together. For this he probably is a genius in some way, but I for one, after spending two hours reading, don't get the point.

Sorry.

1. Who will be the person(s) who will bring forward the scriptures of the Lost Ten Tribes?

I believe we are told the world will bring them forth. Not the church. If these writings are in fact them, lets, see them, writings of the prophets from these other tribes, not the ramblings of someone today commenting on history. The Lord gave me the scriptures. He doesn't expect me to read all the writings of the ancient Hebrews and sift out five hundred pages of scripture out of five million documents.

2. Will the Church immediately accept them?

Not likely in our current state of apostasy, referring to the general membership not the leadership. Those living close to the spirit will and will recognize their value.

3. How will they be implemented?

Implemented makes it sound like all we have yet received is useless and that these will take precedence. If they are indeed revealed by the world, not as scripture, they will be additional truths that those that are living close to the spirit will be able to recognize as additional gospel truths. I do not believe they will be a PhD thesis that only a "genius" can patch together.

• His efforts failed to teach his friends to work together by the law in their work-a-day lives because of the immediate prospects for getting rich of his companions.

By their works or fruits ye shall know them. Is there more than just a few who consider themselves the intellectually elite that are teaching from these writings?

Where is the law of witnesses fulfilled. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every truth be established. Where are the other witnesses of this if it is indeed worthy of our time and effort to study? To claim Skousen was involved in the original search does not make him a witness to the conclusions reached.

I'm with you on this WhisperFox. I confess to getting a lot of interesting unverified historical perspective from it. I was able at most every step to see where he was going with all of it, the problem I have is that he never got there and in the previous post it is still held out as a carrot for those who apparently believe what they have not seen (which is good in a gospel sense but faith in some scorned reported genius?)

I am still waiting to hear and try the principles. When I read Nibley I wanted to live the law and order, when I read Andrus, I wanted to live the law and order, I have never been opposed to the law and order, on the contrary if anything I obsess about living it. I love the order inversely to hateing socialism.

It is my understanding that the Ten Tribes will come with their writings to Zion, and I have no doubts that we will be ready for them as we have to live the law and order to qualify to redeem Zion, thus when we hear of them afar off, we will anxiously await their writings and the opportunity to provide the blessings of the temple to them. They will come in a manner that excedes the glory of the exodus from pharohs bondage!

I still need to find and read the German Fairy tales.

I don’t blame you for feeling the way you do about the bulk of his information. I believe I warned everyone early on, about the difficulty in studying Bruce’s books. Having helped prepare the books into the digital format over a year ago I tested them on a few friends, they absolutely hated his structure and style. His books are a very hard read and causes just about everyone the same feelings you report.

I asked Bruce to lend himself out to some editing, he refused, and is very happy with the format and style of his books. So they are presented as they are, raw Bruce, About the only thing I added was the work on the graphics. I have had the luxury to be able to be the scanner, OCR editor, and because of my long talks with him, I can see through his long paragraphs, his unyielding focus and the savant like authoritative lecturing.

Perhaps the works are a failure as you suggest. But they are a unique perspective that may have been the inspiration for others who have known Bruce. Cleon Skousen was informed by him, Hugh Nibley was motivated by him. Bruce credits his involvement with Hugh Nibley for Hugh Nibley’s prayer at a BYU graduation that mentions them being dressed in the "Robes of Satan". Bruce’s information is also the foundation for the Township movement in southern Utah of the 1980’s.

Only time will tell if Bruce is a lunatic and outside the truth, or if he was inspired and gifted. He will not be with us forever, he is in his 70’s, mostly healthy, but time will rob him of that. His work will be a landmark on the landscape of the 20th Century. How he will be remembered will be up to future generations, I personally have seen open hostilities, like when he tried to sue Bruce Bastian, but maybe the future will be different.

I appreciate your observations as to the usefulness of any of this information, others will most likely have the same feelings, yet they do have an effect on some, if nothing more than to look for the truth.

His books are part of an amazing focus, I mentioned that he is partially autistic. He has a large set of Encyclopedias in his home from the 60’s, if you pull down any volume from A-Z and flip to any page, every page has been carefully studied, notes in the margins, red underlines under important points. His mind has captured the whole of human history. If you open his big dictionary, he has similarly noted every entry, studied the etymology of every word. He has the dictionaries of the Dutch Language, Latin Language and several others, all of them are well worn and much studied. Many other important works he has completely devoured including a tall stack of Greek Classics.

I thank you for saying that my writing is better as I am trying to share my desire to get us into the millennial Zion. This is my focus that I have had for many years. I authored a website titled LIBERTY at http://darren.lib.utah.edu since shut down but available on the wayback machine or internet archive at http://web.archive.org/web/200305011332 ... .utah.edu/
This was my efforts while I was struggling under the confusion of Political Science while studying at the University of Utah.

Coming into Bruce’s information about 2 years ago gave me added insights for my future work. His ability to bring together vast stores of information into that perspective of his is quite unique. I wouldn’t expect any from the world of scholars to side with Bruce any time soon. But they will be looking because of his focus.

God Bless,
Darren

From what you tell us about Bruce it's a shame he didn't get ahold of my collection of US history encyclopedia's published in 1901. The three sets take about 6' of shelf space. He would have had the ability to read and digest the information that we've lost in the last 100 years. They've been very interesting even for someone like myself with limited education. Our perspective of US government and US history has substantially changed in the last 100 years.

I agree with Pitchfire. I'm interested. I could probably finish reading the work over time, it's interesting information, but I'd never be able to share it with anyone because I'm not sure it would ever gel together in my brain.

Bruce didn’t get married until he was in his forties. He spent 20 years after his mission at several different universities consuming what was available there, and working with languages, developing his perspective. After he got married he spent very little, if any, time engaged in punching a time clock, still being focused on refining and delivering his message. I doubt he would have much of a different perspective just by changing the version of encyclopedias he owned. His life story is actually more amazing than witnessing his noted and marked up encyclopedias and dictionaries. Bruce has been on a “mission” or focus ever since his Mission to Finland in 1956, according to his older brother Leo Weidner.

It is troubling to be exposed to such a genius perspective and to know that because of the amazing nature his message will be mostly overlooked or seldom pondered over. I have learned so much more to what I already knew, that I now am brimming with perspective, but it has come at a price, of being outside generally believed ideas. That investment of looking for what it is, is not easy to share with others.

Darren

I was able to read your first commnts don't have time right now to read the rest but i want to read it later. And it is so refreshing to hear that another person knows that our Government will fall and Ican't wait for that to happen because it has become so evil and socialistic. I have tried to tell some of my in-laws and they won't believe me. I have read a little of "The Majesty of Gods Law" I better get busy and finish the book.

It appears that my introduction has had more views than any other topic at the Latter-day Conservative Forum. There must be a lot of unique words here to attract outside Internet surfers. Most of what I base my posts on can be found at:
http://s98822910.onlinehome.us/thousandyears/
Keep reading.

God Bless,
Darren

Hello Darren,

I have read through a lot of your post and I must say you do a good job teaching Bruce's work. I have read some of his work that you have linked to; I have a hard time of staying focus and following his line of thought. However, you take the complex make it in reach for me and I want to thank you for your time and effort you have taken to open it up to the layman such as myself. It takes a considerable amount of time to understand and digest your information. I know that you are opened to answering questions and I hope to ask some. The tremendous amount of information is overwhelming, but you have sparked a desire for me to learn and understand. I will continue to study and look forward to your post that makes the complex simple.

I want you to know your thoughts and post are very much appreciated.

Thank you,

Joseph

Yes, I know that Bruce's works are very hard to follow, he has a unique writing style. Fortunately I was tutored under him, and easily follow his thoughts as a result.

At your service as always,

God Bless,
Darren