About baptizing my child

[mouse]

My daughter will be 8 in a year. (how time flies.) I appreciate the church very much. I have been ordained to both priesthood's, and have received my endowments. My wife and I were married in the temple when I returned home from my mission. However since that time (about 8 years ago) we have not been active for various reason. (insert various excuses here). My wife and I simply don't like to go to church, and we don't pay tithing, but I still want my children baptized in the church. My oldest daughter is a very spiritual child and simply loves praying and reading the scriptures before bed time. It would mean a lot to her, and more importantly, it would carry on the family tradition of baptism in the LDS faith, that I feel morally bound not to break. I would like to know if I can baptize my child despite my inactivity. I have a positive view of the church, and with the exception of my inactivity, live according to church standards with regards to, moral standards, word of wisdom, etc.
I would appreciate any information on this subject, but please don't ridicule me for not being active. I'm simply trying to support my daughter. thank you.

[sadie_Mormon]

I can understand the struggle you are having regarding Baptism of your child. I go to church for my children't sake but I do not enjoy it (nor do the children). I have always told my children that no one should pressure them to be baptized and that when the time is right they will know it. And boy do they feel pressured in the LDS church environment (not a good pressure at all). There is no specific age that they must be baptized. You'll know as a parent (as will your child) when and how it will be right.

One with the proper Priesthood can simply take their child to the river or ocean and Baptize them. There is no requirement that it must be done in the church. Strength in your testimony is not about where you belong (membership) it is with whom it belongs (HF).

[TZONE]

One with the proper Priesthood can simply take their child to the river or ocean and Baptize them. There is no requirement that it must be done in the church. Strength in your testimony is not about where you belong (membership) it is with whom it belongs (HF).

Hmm, I wouldn't risk it. There was a reason why many of the baptisms in the early days of the church had to all be redone. (if I remember the story correctly), they did not record them or did them out of place thus had to redo everything.

[gkearney]

One with the proper Priesthood can simply take their child to the river or ocean and Baptize them. There is no requirement that it must be done in the church. Strength in your testimony is not about where you belong (membership) it is with whom it belongs (HF).

Am I the only one here that finds this advice troubling?

[sevenator]

One with the proper Priesthood can simply take their child to the river or ocean and Baptize them. There is no requirement that it must be done in the church. Strength in your testimony is not about where you belong (membership) it is with whom it belongs (HF).

Am I the only one here that finds this advice troubling?

No, you aren't. For the ordinance to be valid, approval needs to be obtained from the presiding authority (the bishop) and there must be two witnesses to the baptism who themselves hold sufficient priesthood authority to baptize (MP holders or Priests in the AP). This is to verify that the ordinance is performed properly (i.e. - that the individual is completely immersed and that they administer the prescribed wording properly per D&C 20:73) This information comes directly from Handbook 2: Administering the Church.

It is, however, correct that any body of water of sufficient size can be used, provided it is deemed safe. It need not take place in a font in a church building.

[SpeedRacer]

Mouse,

Church is not always the greatest, but you generally get what you put into it. Suck it up and go back. Attend at least for a couple of months. Do some soul searching, and turn toward God. If you do, you will find he will honor you, and you will have no problem baptizing your daughter. The church wants you to baptize your daughter, and will make every effort to see that you can.

[jnjnelson]

My daughter will be 8 in a year. (how time flies.) I appreciate the church very much. I have been ordained to both priesthood's, and have received my endowments. My wife and I were married in the temple when I returned home from my mission. However since that time (about 8 years ago) we have not been active for various reason. (insert various excuses here). My wife and I simply don't like to go to church, and we don't pay tithing, but I still want my children baptized in the church. My oldest daughter is a very spiritual child and simply loves praying and reading the scriptures before bed time. It would mean a lot to her, and more importantly, it would carry on the family tradition of baptism in the LDS faith, that I feel morally bound not to break. I would like to know if I can baptize my child despite my inactivity. I have a positive view of the church, and with the exception of my inactivity, live according to church standards with regards to, moral standards, word of wisdom, etc.
I would appreciate any information on this subject, but please don't ridicule me for not being active. I'm simply trying to support my daughter. thank you.

The best person to have this discussion with is your bishop; your bishop is authorized by the Lord to determine whether you are authorized to perform the baptism of your daughter, and if you aren't he can tell you what you will need to do to prepare yourself.

[ajax]

I would like to know if I can baptize my child despite my inactivity. I have a positive view of the church, and with the exception of my inactivity, live according to church standards with regards to, moral standards, word of wisdom, etc.
I would appreciate any information on this subject, but please don't ridicule me for not being active. I'm simply trying to support my daughter. thank you.

Inactivity does not equal unworthiness. You have the authority. However to be official, it all depends on your presiding officer(bishop) and the conversation you have with him. I have known some that would let you do this in a heartbeat. I have know others who are much tougher and will make you jump through a bunch of hoops. Good luck.

[davedan]

This has been discussed recently in LDS leadership training.

1. the more important thing is worthiness more than activity or inactivity

2. but even beyond this, it is your privilege of the Priesthood to baptize your daughter.

3. the only thing that may happen is that the Bishop may decide that you should baptize your daughter but that you can stand in the circle for the confirmation while he serves as voice.

4. We were encouraged to allow all farhers to baptize their children and stand in the circle at least (if Melchizedek holder) But if your worthy and go to church a few times before thd Bishop may also allow you to be voice for the blessing.

5. The Bishop, like the priest or judge in Israel in the OT, determines ritual purity to participate in the ordinances of the gospel.

6. What I remember hearing about this was that even if there were worthiness issues, a father should still be encouraged to baptize his children. The Bishop or home teacher would voice the confirmation with Dad in the circle.

[Original_Intent]

Mouse,

Church is not always the greatest, but you generally get what you put into it. Suck it up and go back. Attend at least for a couple of months. Do some soul searching, and turn toward God. If you do, you will find he will honor you, and you will have no problem baptizing your daughter. The church wants you to baptize your daughter, and will make every effort to see that you can.

I agree with Speed.

I also do not want to pressure you to return to church, but as someone who has felt exactly as you have and recently went through 10+ years of inactivity, I hope that you will prayerfully consider returning to full activity. Not to hi-jack your thread, but can I please share my experiences and hopefully the spirit will give you some promptings if anything applies to you?

I basically became inactive because I felt church attendance was doing me no good. During the ten or more years that I was inactive, I still studied a lot - scriptures, lots of other gospel books, non LDS theological such as C.S. Lewis, lots of philosophy that I think was very helpful. And I did remain a full tithe payer. But I did not attend the temple at all, and really felt that the less I had to deal with the organization, the better. I felt that the greater part of the membership, the VAST majority, was pretty much asleep and did not want to be awakened, and I felt that church attendance was depressing. I did not see Zion getting built, nor a path to it getting built.

My wife and sons were both active, but thankfully my wife did not nag me at all, was very loving and supportive of me.

A few years ago (about the time I joined LDSFF) I got the impression that I had been "sitting on the fence" and I got the distinct impression that the Lord was instructing me that I needed to either be all in or all out. It was time to get off the fence, and I needed to either fully work within the church and do the things it required (including attendance) or I needed to, I don't know - not leave the church, I guess I don't know what the alternative was. Bottom line was that I felt prompted to become active, but of course the choice of whether to do was up to me.

Sometime during this period, a member of the stake presidency stopped by and said that he was strongly impressed that I need to return to activity in the church.

I have done so. Activity in the church is not always about that you have something to learn (intellectually) but at the very least it gives many opportunities to serve, and I am learning more and more what an important piece that plays. Service is one of the central pieces, it is critical. Also, I am beginning to see progress being made. There are big changes going on within the church. I am feeling the Lord's direction in things that are happening. The church is far from perfect, but I do feel we are at a critical period and that great blessings and great challenges are upon us. This work needs every willing and able members contribution, I am not talking tithing...the church needs your time, talents, and prayers.

You should not baptize your daughter for the sake of maintaining a family tradition. Before your daughter is baptized, she should understand the serious and wonderful step that it is. She should realize baptism is a beginning, not a destination.

I hope this hasn't been preachy, not intended to be. I do encourage you strongly to prayerfully consider what to do next, and follow those promptings.

[natasha]

OI...that is some of the best advice I've ever heard anyone give another! Like you, I see great strides being made within "the Church"...and that is happening because there are willing people to work with!

[sevenator]

I was a little bit terse in referring to the guidelines in the handbook. I feel I need to relate some personal information here...

Mouse, I was in a situation similar to yours a little over 5 years ago. My son had turned 7 and after several years of inactivity, I started thinking a little more about the example I wanted to set for my son and my wife. I knew that I needed to baptize my son and I knew it would mean a lot to him.

Little sidebar here...wife is a convert, we are a blended family and the son that I mention here is our only child together and the last of the clan for this lifetime...Inactivity was due to some imperfect leaders taking a little more license than they should with their perceived authority in the positions they held but looking back, I should have just rolled with it. My inactivity hurt me way more than it did them.

Anyway, the wife and I discussed the situation and decided that we would return to activity and we did so with what I would call 'full purpose of heart'. I am a life-long member of the Church, but the things that I have been permitted and privileged to experience since we made this decision have been pretty life-altering. Trials, opportunities and experiences that have caused more growth in the last 5 years than I had experienced in the previous 30 or so. While I cannot say that I have had experiences similar to some I've read about here at LDSFF, the things I have experienced have let me know without doubt that God knows who I am and knows my heart and I know that he loves me as he does all his children. A couple of those very deeply spiritual experiences were shared with my son, as well.

I, like others, would not want to pressure you in any way to return to activity in the Church, because you have to find your own way, but I can tell you it's worth it if you are ready. I made that choice and it has made a world of difference for me and my family. I think it can for you and yours, too.

Whatever your decision, and however things go, I wish you well. Know that there are plenty of folks who have been where you are. I hope I didn't offend by spouting off from the handbook.

[Thinker]

My daughter will be 8 in a year. (how time flies.) I appreciate the church very much. I have been ordained to both priesthood's, and have received my endowments. My wife and I were married in the temple when I returned home from my mission. However since that time (about 8 years ago) we have not been active for various reason. (insert various excuses here). My wife and I simply don't like to go to church, and we don't pay tithing, but I still want my children baptized in the church. My oldest daughter is a very spiritual child and simply loves praying and reading the scriptures before bed time. It would mean a lot to her, and more importantly, it would carry on the family tradition of baptism in the LDS faith, that I feel morally bound not to break. I would like to know if I can baptize my child despite my inactivity. I have a positive view of the church, and with the exception of my inactivity, live according to church standards with regards to, moral standards, word of wisdom, etc.
I would appreciate any information on this subject, but please don't ridicule me for not being active. I'm simply trying to support my daughter. thank you.

I respect your desire to do what's best for your children, and even thinking ahead a year.
8 years is a while to be inactive in church attendance, but by how you've explained your situation, you ARE active in the actual gospel (in searching for and applying good news). What keeps you away from church?

I am active in church attendance - with callings and everything (which is alot & sometimes too much). But belief-wise, I consider myself actively trying to do God's will, which often conflicts with church policy and curriculum. I personally, do not believe that baptism is essential to God, but it's more of a symbolic representation, for us to remember what we truly want. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Every single person on this earth was born of water, through their mother's amniotic fluid, so I consider that condition met at birth. Still, I also want my children baptized, but not because I fear God if they don't... but because it's a beautiful symbol and milestone.

The age of 8 happens to be the time in child-development when children begin to realize the difference between concrete & abstract... imagination & reality - so they tend to be in a better position to choose between what is of God (truth/health) and what isn't. In this crazy world where evil is made to appear good & visa versa, our kids need all of the help they can get. If you think about it, so much of our experience of life is based on symbols - even these words we're communicating by. Baptism is a powerful symbol of wanting to choose the right (of prioritizing God above all - dying to the natural man & being born again & again to the spiritual/moral) - and will be remembered throughout one's life.

[sbsion]

you can baptise your child, question IS, do you want it recorded on church records?

[jo1952]

you can baptise your child, question IS, do you want it recorded on church records?

Dear Mouse:

Indeed. And irregardless of Church records, the book of Life is being kept in Heaven. One of the purposes of records being kept on the earth is that the record keepers themselves will have something to show concerning their own faithfulness in whatever capacity they have been called. Another purpose is just for the sanity of keeping track of so many people.

As for the book of Life, Christ is the one who will blot out the names of those who have not yet overcome.....and this is with respect to those who are already members of the church (see the seven letters to the seven churches in the Book of Revelation). IOW, this is talking about the individuals who had repented and come to Christ AND who had been baptized. Endurance to the end and the continuation of repentance is another issue beyond the scope of this thread.

Your question and your concerns are actually a part of the mysteries which are not yet understood in their fulness -- even by the Church.

D&C 10:64-68 (emphasis added)

64 Therefore, I will unfold unto them this great mystery;

65 For, behold, I will gather them as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, if they will not harden their hearts;

66 Yea, if they will come, they may, and partake of the waters of life freely.

67 Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church.

68 Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore he is not of my church.

You are already His church. If a leader of the Church says you are not worthy to baptize your daughter, then that leader is against Christ and is NOT of His church because he is denying you the rights you inherrantly have by being His church. In this, they are not serving God; a man cannot serve two masters. We all dance back and forth between serving God and serving Satan; one moment we are God's church, and the next we are Satan's church, and so forth. Inactivity is NOT apostasy. Not paying tithes is NOT apostasy. Not agreeing with what the leaders teach is NOT apostasy. The physical LDS Church is NOT the spiritual Church of God. There are only two spiritual churches on the earth; the Church of the Lamb of God, and the church of satan.

The above revelation was the third revelation given to Joseph. It is revealing why it was necessary to Restore the Gospel message. Orthodox Christianity had ADDED to Christ's simple doctrine; they were repeating the actions of the Pharisees by closing Heaven to any who did not agree with their additions. NOW, the Church is doing the very same thing.

When your daughter turns eight, she is of the age of accountability. In your heart you can be assured that through her own repentance and coming to Christ that she is already His church as well....even if she has not yet made a public demonstration by going through the process of baptism by water. What you are left with is the dilemma of how your daughter will view all of this. If you choose to baptize her outside of the confines of the LDS religious institution, is she going to become confused? Or will she feel okay? This is a problem which man has created while being a part of the world. Unfortunately, while we are in the flesh, we are faced with dealing with the problems of the flesh.

I dislike that the Church distorts Truth and places such confusion into our minds. Yet, at the same time, I recognize that this is all part of the conditions of the Creation which are part of the Plan of Salvation. Inevitably, we must participate in these conditions in order to progress. So even the leaders of the Church still need to be in the flesh so that they, as individuals, can also progress; stumbling and making mistakes along the way. If they were already perfect, they would have already overcome the world and would be with God in His Kingdom. However, they are fallible; and we are left to deal with the distortions caused by man's fallibility, including our own.

My prayers are with you.

Shalom,

jo

[TZONE]

If a leader of the Church says you are not worthy to baptize your daughter, then that leader is against Christ and is NOT of His church because he is denying you the rights you inherrantly have by being His church.

Again... Hmmmm. Who are you to tell him he is worthy than condemn one who MAY tell him he is not worthy. Judging someone as righteous if evil is just as wrong if someone judged a righteousness person as evil. We knowing nothing about mouse.

Jesus Christ always respected the one with the priesthood keys. The people may not have been perfect but the charge were given only to specific people (John the baptist).

Do we forget Christ was baptized to fulfill the law? Whether spiritually saved already it doesn't matter he NEEDED it to fulfill all righteousness. You will not receive the gift of the holy ghost without the first half as well.

[jo1952]

If a leader of the Church says you are not worthy to baptize your daughter, then that leader is against Christ and is NOT of His church because he is denying you the rights you inherrantly have by being His church.

Again... Hmmmm. Who are you to tell him he is worthy than condemn one who MAY tell him he is not worthy. Judging someone as righteous if evil is just as wrong if someone judged a righteousness person as evil. We knowing nothing about mouse.

Jesus Christ always respected the one with the priesthood keys. The people may not have been perfect but the charge were given only to specific people (John the baptist).

Do we forget Christ was baptized to fulfill the law? Whether spiritually saved already it doesn't matter he NEEDED it to fulfill all righteousness. You will not receive the gift of the holy ghost without the first half as well.

Hello TZONE,

When we go through any type of interview with a Church leader, it is NOT the leader who has the ability to Judge us. Christ judges us according to the intent of our heart. In answering interview questions, WE are the ones who look inside of ourselves to determine if WE feel worthy. We condemn ourselves or we find ourselves worthy in accordance with how we answer interview questions. It is Christ within us wherein we are finally able to see who we really are; and it is the Holy Spirit who leads us to that awakening so that we can be born of the Spirit. As such, it is ultimately Christ within us by whom we are condemned or found worthy; it is not the Church leader who has this ability to condemn OR to save. It is a fine line; but leaders cross it all the time. Rather than giving guidelines to help an individual determine for himself (along with Christ within him) whether he is "worthy" or not, leaders wind up doing the juging themselves; thus usurping Christ's right to Judge.

Shalom,

jo

[Dannyk]

I am active in church attendance - with callings and everything (which is alot & sometimes too much). But belief-wise, I consider myself actively trying to do God's will, which often conflicts with church policy and curriculum. I personally, do not believe that baptism is essential to God, but it's more of a symbolic representation, for us to remember what we truly want. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Every single person on this earth was born of water, through their mother's amniotic fluid, so I consider that condition met at birth. Still, I also want my children baptized, but not because I fear God if they don't... but because it's a beautiful symbol and milestone.

Though I certainly respect your right to believe as you've written, I'm a little puzzled with your conclusion. Vs. 5 is merely Christ's clarification on the previous statement about the need to be born again in vs 3. This is consistent with the teachings in Moses 6:59 -

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

Both of those scriptures seem to not recognize the original "born of water" as equaling baptism, but suggest a need to be born again, not just of water but also of spirit (Holy Ghost) and blood (Christ).

Baptism is a powerful symbol of wanting to choose the right (of prioritizing God above all - dying to the natural man & being born again & again to the spiritual/moral) - and will be remembered throughout one's life.

That I totally agree with

To the OP - I agree with what many have said. It sounds as though you are trying to live an honest life. As such, I would certainly hope that your presiding priesthood leader would recognize that and that a conversation with Him would be the right step forward. If you want the baptism to be recognized in the records of the church (which may or may not be your concern), then there is no other way then to involve the Bishop who has keys to the performing of ordinances of salvation for children of record.

Best of luck.

[skmo]

When we go through any type of interview with a Church leader, it is NOT the leader who has the ability to Judge us. Christ judges us according to the intent of our heart. In answering interview questions, WE are the ones who look inside of ourselves to determine if WE feel worthy...

Not entirely. This is more of a non-denominational Christian belief. If that's your belief, it's fine for you to have. It is not LDS Church doctrine and does not fit the restored gospel in its fulness which we have been given. Again, if you believe that to be the full truth, may you find happiness in it. I believe your information to be incomplete.

Our priesthood leaders are called "Judges in Israel" because they sit in place as our judges to assist us on our mortal period of trial. Some things we are able to judge for ourselves. If I feel that watching football on Sunday isn't sinning, that's my pace to judge. It doesn't rise (for me) to the point where I need the guidance of a priesthood authority. If I have a sexual affair with someone not my spouse, that needs the judgement of priesthood authorities to help me find my way back into full fellowship. The ability to exercise one's priesthood to do sacraments ( not just bread and water, but baptisms, ordinations, temple work, etc.) requires authorization from God's steward over us. Again, this comes back to God being a God of order. He doesn't just throw us willy-nilly down here and say "Find some authority, read what prophets said, and do My Word." He has an organization. He has ordained leaders.

[skmo]

Mouse, there is some great advice here. I hope you prayerfully approach it. I agree that in order to baptize your daughter you should first talk to your bishop or stake president to discuss things so that you can be the one to do the ordinances. This should be done for your daughter, and for yourself. If you do this and again fall away, you will have still fulfilled the requirement to do the Right Thing for your daughter. She can decide for herself as is right for her, but don't you owe it to her to give her the fulness of the blessings she is entitled to?

[mouse]

I really appreciate all of the time everyone took here, to give me council on this issue. I will be printing a copy of this for my bedside so I can look it over often, as I try to come to a definitive conclusion. Very, very grateful for your thoughts. The response has been overwhelming to me. I will certainly keep you all posted on an eventual outcome down the road. Thank you again.

[Thinker]

I am active in church attendance - with callings and everything (which is alot & sometimes too much). But belief-wise, I consider myself actively trying to do God's will, which often conflicts with church policy and curriculum. I personally, do not believe that baptism is essential to God, but it's more of a symbolic representation, for us to remember what we truly want. John 3:5 states, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Every single person on this earth was born of water, through their mother's amniotic fluid, so I consider that condition met at birth. Still, I also want my children baptized, but not because I fear God if they don't... but because it's a beautiful symbol and milestone.

Though I certainly respect your right to believe as you've written, I'm a little puzzled with your conclusion. Vs. 5 is merely Christ's clarification on the previous statement about the need to be born again in vs 3. This is consistent with the teachings in Moses 6:59 -

Scriptures were written by imperfect people. Some scriptures are of God, some are not. If you consider the history of the biblical canon (66- 78 selected books, which the BofM & Pearl & D&C are based on) - you will find that they have been corrupted by many, who wanted political and religious power over the people. Some stories about Jesus were not added until 400 years after the fact. So, to me, scriptures do not take precedence over common sense and the spirit. It's good to study things out & ponder & pray about them.


There are some scriptures that are axiomatic truth, so I use those to judge the truth of other writings.
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." -Luke 17:20-21
No doubt, the experience I have of God is within me - where else can I experience anything?
How are we "born again" - is it an external or internal process, in this life? Internal.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus went to the trouble to tell us about his birth?
Is Jesus the type who'd want us to worship him, especially in celebrating his birthday? Of course not.
"Without a parable, spake he not unto them."
The birth of Jesus is also parable - of being spiritually born again.
The flesh is something - we need bodies & get them through being born of our mother's water - but the spirit is what is most important eternally.

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

I don't believe in human sacrifice, nor do I believe a loving Heavenly Father would.
I also don't believe in scapegoats, nor do I think Jesus wanted us to make him one.
Christ isn't Jesus' last name - but what he became & encouraged us to become. He cared more about worshipping God/Truth/Love than he did about going along with corrupt interpretations of religious traditions. Some traditions, like baptism, are symbolic & can be interpreted in ways that benefit us & draw us closer to God.

[jo1952]

Scriptures were written by imperfect people. Some scriptures are of God, some are not. If you consider the history of the biblical canon (66- 78 selected books, which the BofM & Pearl & D&C are based on) - you will find that they have been corrupted by many, who wanted political and religious power over the people. Some stories about Jesus were not added until 400 years after the fact. So, to me, scriptures do not take precedence over common sense and the spirit. It's good to study things out & ponder & pray about them.

There are some scriptures that are axiomatic truth, so I use those to judge the truth of other writings.
"The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you." -Luke 17:20-21
No doubt, the experience I have of God is within me - where else can I experience anything?
How are we "born again" - is it an external or internal process, in this life? Internal.

Have you ever wondered why Jesus went to the trouble to tell us about his birth?
Is Jesus the type who'd want us to worship him, especially in celebrating his birthday? Of course not.
"Without a parable, spake he not unto them."
The birth of Jesus is also parable - of being spiritually born again.
The flesh is something - we need bodies & get them through being born of our mother's water - but the spirit is what is most important eternally.

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

I don't believe in human sacrifice, nor do I believe a loving Heavenly Father would.
I also don't believe in scapegoats, nor do I think Jesus wanted us to make him one.
Christ isn't Jesus' last name - but what he became & encouraged us to become. He cared more about worshipping God/Truth/Love than he did about going along with corrupt interpretations of religious traditions. Some traditions, like baptism, are symbolic & can be interpreted in ways that benefit us & draw us closer to God.

Dear Thinker!

You are spot on!!!!! Your insight is awesome to experience. Thank you so much for sharing!

Shalom,

jo

[Thinker]

Thank you, Jo.
I feel humbled, because so much of this (the gospel/good news) is easier said than done.