LDS Freedom Forum

AussieOi wrote:

DrJones wrote:Now let me ask, this Swedish "ex-Area-authority" who has left the Church -- does he still have the power to GIVE PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS?

If you have it -- keep it and cherish it -- and use it to bless others!

The priesthood has been restored via Joseph Smith -- of that I testify. Whether he practiced polygamy or not (I understand he did from the historical record) is much less important than exercising the priesthood to bless the lives of your children and grand-children!

Very interesting point that

I have learned it is faith that makes the blessing work.

The scriptures say that the PRIESTHOOD is needed also for certain blessings and ordinances to come - as employed by Peter, Elijah, Moses - and Jesus himself.

Note what Jesus says about the priesthood:

33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

A blessing - or a cursing, as we choose.
A stern warning -- such as Jesus gave to the "scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!" Indeed, they were not using the priesthood properly, if they held it.

We would do well to "receive the priesthood" and keep the oath and covenant pertaining to it.

DrJones wrote:

AussieOi wrote:

DrJones wrote:Now let me ask, this Swedish "ex-Area-authority" who has left the Church -- does he still have the power to GIVE PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS?

If you have it -- keep it and cherish it -- and use it to bless others!

The priesthood has been restored via Joseph Smith -- of that I testify. Whether he practiced polygamy or not (I understand he did from the historical record) is much less important than exercising the priesthood to bless the lives of your children and grand-children!

Very interesting point that

I have learned it is faith that makes the blessing work.

The scriptures say that the PRIESTHOOD is needed also for certain blessings and ordinances to come - as employed by Peter, Elijah, Moses - and Jesus himself.

Note what Jesus says about the priesthood:

33 For whoso is faithful unto the obtaining these two priesthoods of which I have spoken, and the magnifying their calling, are sanctified by the Spirit unto the renewing of their bodies.

34 They become the sons of Moses and of Aaron and the seed of Abraham, and the church and kingdom, and the elect of God.

35 And also all they who receive this priesthood receive me, saith the Lord;

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

39 And this is according to the oath and covenant which belongeth to the priesthood.

40 Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my Father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved.

41 But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth therefrom, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.

A blessing - or a cursing, as we choose.
A stern warning -- such as Jesus gave to the "scribes, Pharisees, hypocrites!" Indeed, they were not using the priesthood properly, if they held it.

We would do well to "receive the priesthood" and keep the oath and covenant pertaining to it.

Well said Dr. Jones. I am reminded of the last portion of Section 121 in the D&C. Words like persuasion, long suffering, gentleness, meekness, love unfeigned, kindness, without guile, virtue, and finally charity are all interconnected with the powers of heaven.

Joseph said this to the Saints:
“It is a duty which every Saint ought to render to his brethren freely—to always love them, and ever succor them. To be justified before God we must love one another: we must overcome evil; we must visit the fatherless and the widow in their affliction, and we must keep ourselves unspotted from the world; for such virtues flow from the great fountain of pure religion."

I have met many individuals throughout my life who have become disenchanted with the church for a variety of reasons and began to travel that road leading them to engage in public critisism and unflattering innuendo and negativism aimed toward the church and those who serve in leadership capacities within the church.

It has been very apparent to me that when this occurs those spirit filled principles outlined in verses 41 to 46 in Section 121 are among the first to go with these folks. Pride and natural man tendencies always rush in to fill the void caused by the loss of the Lords tender spirit. It never ends well when this path is taken. This is one of Satans most effective tools in the battle for the souls of men.

Or, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

AussieOi wrote:Or, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

Perhaps I can express it more clearly this way Aussie. From the beginnings of the restoration Josephs greatest goal was to unite the Saints in righteousness and sanctification and prepare them for the redemption of Zion. However as Section 101 and 105 sadly tells us the Saints became caught up in ungodly things like contention and envying and strife and covetous desires and were not united according to the laws of the celestial kingdom.

Now fast forward to today. Are we as saints any closer to this marvelous Zion? Do we access the powers of Heaven through the principles of righteousness? Are we united as a people in a consecrated spirit with the intent of building up the Kingdom of God and bringing to pass the redemption of Zion? Are we filled with charity toward all men?

If we continue to accuse and criticize and tear down fellow Saints and leadership how can we possibly expect to purify our hearts and unite in the spirit of Zion to welcome back our Lord to this earth as the great lawgiver? It just can't be done unless we show love and forgiveness towards all who may displease or offend us in any way. The Lords sheep hear his voice. It is a voice filled with charity to all and true Priesthood power through overcoming the natural man by practicing the principles of righteousness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

I found a text regarding the progress of the Church in Eastern Germany from 1840 through building the Freiberg Temple prior to the collapse of the Iron Curtain and the German Democratic Republic. Imagine that! A Temple of the Lord behind the Iron Curtain!

I asked the GD class yesterday how many knew that a temple had been built behind the Iron Curtain. Only two out of a class of 35-40. Now that seems like a piece of history we ALL should know about, doesn't it? Would knowing that help one's testimony?

The East German members of the Church were left without direct leadership from Salt Lake City. I believe there are similar stories about the conversion process among African communities - even prior to the 1978 announcement. Some power outside and in addition to what is found in Salt Lake City is directing these miraculous events.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/regional-s ... -latter-da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Perhaps being in direct communication with the Head of the Church helps us simplify what is most essential for personal salvation. That is a condition each of us could pursue. We really don't need to depend upon leadership of the Church to interpret harsh or confusing realities.

Anyone wonder why the miraculous events surrounding the Freiberg Temple aren't common knowledge among the Saints?

Maybe, everyone is totally occupied with the Work at hand.

keep the faith wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Or, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

Perhaps I can express it more clearly this way Aussie. From the beginnings of the restoration Josephs greatest goal was to unite the Saints in righteousness and sanctification and prepare them for the redemption of Zion. However as Section 101 and 105 sadly tells us the Saints became caught up in ungodly things like contention and envying and strife and covetous desires and were not united according to the laws of the celestial kingdom.

Now fast forward to today. Are we as saints any closer to this marvelous Zion? Do we access the powers of Heaven through the principles of righteousness? Are we united as a people in a consecrated spirit with the intent of building up the Kingdom of God and bringing to pass the redemption of Zion? Are we filled with charity toward all men?

If we continue to accuse and criticize and tear down fellow Saints and leadership how can we possibly expect to purify our hearts and unite in the spirit of Zion to welcome back our Lord to this earth as the great lawgiver? It just can't be done unless we show love and forgiveness towards all who may displease or offend us in any way. The Lords sheep hear his voice. It is a voice filled with charity to all and true Priesthood power through overcoming the natural man by practicing the principles of righteousness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

Hi there.
So ma y good points, but why the need to throw in the typical LDS guilt complex ?
Why blame members for this aparent lack of unity?

Fish, rot, head?

Another way to put it.

In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

I can't direct them to apologetics that are half baked at best and conveniently deniable.

Any thoughts?

Keep the Faith,

Welcome to the boards. Always nice to have another soul to chat with.

The goal of all of God's servants is to move forward the plan of salvation. If you read Paul's letters carefully you will see he wrote milk for some and meat for others. And if you read Romans you find Paul describing the path from before the law, to the law and knowledge of sin, to living in grace, and of course to walk the spiritual path which leads to the overcoming and breaking the bonds of death. Now Joseph Smith wanted the brothers and sisters to progress all the way so they would be able to stand before the Father. Most enlightened people desire that same thing. But all souls progress at their own pace and many get stuck along the way. Many souls once they enter the law stay in the law their whole life. In my opinion the LDS church right now is a church of laws and as such teaches many spirits what sin is. Only by knowing sin can we see past sin and see that there is more. There is fellowship with God in the spiritual walk. When this happens the law (temporal) no longer applies and the greater law written on our hearts takes over. Part of the law is a strict following of the written commandments (temporal), and the leaders do their part in keeping the laity on a narrow path with many restrictions. The people chosen by God to do this task may not be the spiritual people they profess to be. But all of us have a role to play in this big plan of God's.

In the early ancient church and in the early church founded by Joseph Smith there was a focus on the spiritual walk and overcoming. Some made that walk but most are not able, or are not ready, they need further learning and experience before they can move along. God through Joseph Smith gave the early members a chance to make Zion and do the spiritual walk with God. But they were not ready. So the church became what it had to become, a church of law so those who need the law can experience the law. But just like the Jews who lived under the law they were pretty much on their own for most of the time. A prophet was rare and then revelations were many years apart. In that time the men of the church or synagogue drifted and added their own law as they desired. Part of living under he law is developing a real relationship with the Holy Spirit so eventually you can move past the law. Christ came to the Jews who were buried in the law but few followed Him on the path of spirituality. It is rare but some can make it all the way to overcoming. And in my opinion no church is required for a spirit to take that path to completion.

Now those who do find the spiritual path start to question everything in their life, even the church. And not just the LDS church. For them something is wrong. The law does not seem right. A day comes when it is more important to NOT judge than follow the temporal laws. As we all have experienced the church is law based and judgement is rampant. It must be to do its work. And one more thing must happen and that is a spirit must have many spiritual crisis's. Leaving the church or biting ones tongue to remain quiet is a spiritual crisis for many. But some will quietly move along and find others who are also on the path past the law. I accept all paths as appropriate. It is not where you walk in your body that matters, it is where you walk in spirit that matters.

AussieOi wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Or, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

Perhaps I can express it more clearly this way Aussie. From the beginnings of the restoration Josephs greatest goal was to unite the Saints in righteousness and sanctification and prepare them for the redemption of Zion. However as Section 101 and 105 sadly tells us the Saints became caught up in ungodly things like contention and envying and strife and covetous desires and were not united according to the laws of the celestial kingdom.

Now fast forward to today. Are we as saints any closer to this marvelous Zion? Do we access the powers of Heaven through the principles of righteousness? Are we united as a people in a consecrated spirit with the intent of building up the Kingdom of God and bringing to pass the redemption of Zion? Are we filled with charity toward all men?

If we continue to accuse and criticize and tear down fellow Saints and leadership how can we possibly expect to purify our hearts and unite in the spirit of Zion to welcome back our Lord to this earth as the great lawgiver? It just can't be done unless we show love and forgiveness towards all who may displease or offend us in any way. The Lords sheep hear his voice. It is a voice filled with charity to all and true Priesthood power through overcoming the natural man by practicing the principles of righteousness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

Hi there.
So ma y good points, but why the need to throw in the typical LDS guilt complex ?
Why blame members for this aparent lack of unity?

Fish, rot, head?

Another way to put it.

In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

I can't direct them to apologetics that are half baked at best and conveniently deniable.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for engaging with me Aussie. My experience with the church is that I can find anything that I desire to look for. If I want to find warts or blemishes there are literally hundreds of places I can go in order to dig up dirt on the church or its leaders. However if I want to spend my time seeking uplifting and spiritually rewarding thoughts and actions involving the church and its leadership I can also find myriads of resources and experiences to keep me busy in that endeavor.

I have listened to and read literally hundreds upon hundreds of talks and articles given by those we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators over the past many years. I have felt the spirit testify to my soul on multiple occasions that these leaders are filled with a love for The Lord and desire to do his will in their stewardship responsibilities. This is what i choose to focus on. I do not expect perfection from any of them just as The Lord understands my many faults and failings and is merciful in spite of those faults.

I recently read a wonderful talk about the Prophet Josephs ability to forgive others their trespasses and extend the hand of love and friendship to all. This is something I would like to emulate in my own life. I think it is the only way to show the Savior true discipleship. My best to you in your journey back to The Lord.

http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/lineuponline/0 ... iving.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AussieOi wrote: In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

I can't direct them to apologetics that are half baked at best and conveniently deniable.

Any thoughts?

What are your fruits? How have the gospel and church helped you?
What instances of p, s, and r have you experienced, such as gaining from pondering their conference talks?
Apologetics? Where are yours? What research have you done for it?

I understand some, and I believe the church should be doing much more in some ways, and seems pretty blind in some ways.
It would be nice, for example, to have a decent "official" apologetics website would be nice. Have you thought, though, that the unofficial ones are probably much better than what the church could hire to get done?

I have a feeling, and have experienced, a disconnect between upper and lower leaders. It's hard to pass the vision down, so to say. Remember the experience of Elder Rasband (president of the 70 at the time?) trying to figure out where a missionary would be called to, versus Elder Eyring, whom he was with?
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now imagine that difference going down, down, down... a seventy, an area authority, a temple/ mission president, stake president, counselor, patriarch, bishops, etc., members--all over the world.
It's not going to work, especially at this time when the wheat and the tares are growing thicker and higher, and it's becoming more and more apparent that all that wheat was really half tares...

So yes, it's time to do what many pioneers did--buckle up and get to it, and stop relying on the church for everything, which the church has said it won't do be able to sustain, anyway.

BTW, if you want more really good hidden church history, go to boap.org and read the pioneer journals. Zera Pulsipher's (later a president of the Seventy) is a good one to start with--I guarantee you will read very interesting things you've never heard of in a church class, and some that you have. As you read, ask yourself how many saints nowadays could match that faith and work? Where are we? Where am I? It sure inspired me to stop complaining as much and start working more.

AussieOi wrote:In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

Any thoughts?

Give them one of the new Monson medallions.

ajax wrote:

AussieOi wrote:In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

Any thoughts?

Give them one of the new Monson medallions.

Perhaps I can suggest something a bit more productive for you to give your non member friends Aussie. There is much good done throughout the world by faithful Saints who strive to emulate the example of the Savior in their lives. Here is an example of some of those fruits you seek.
http://www.fruitsofmormonism.com/2013/0 ... eveal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would also supply your friends with the latest general conference issue of the Ensign. There are many wonderful examples of good fruits associated with the church in the inspired words of those who are called to preside in this church. As I said before you can find whatever you are looking for when it comes to the fruits of the church. I choose to look for the positive enriching things that the Gospel has provided people all over world. There is much to be found for those who desire to seek out the good and are forgiving of the shortcomings associated with being human.

keep the faith wrote:

Perhaps I can suggest something a bit more productive for you to give your non member friends Aussie. There is much good done throughout the world by faithful Saints who strive to emulate the example of the Savior in their lives. Here is an example of some of those fruits you seek.
http://www.fruitsofmormonism.com/2013/0 ... eveal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would also supply your friends with the latest general conference issue of the Ensign. There are many wonderful examples of good fruits associated with the church in the inspired words of those who are called to preside in this church. As I said before you can find whatever you are looking for when it comes to the fruits of the church. I choose to look for the positive enriching things that the Gospel has provided people all over world. There is much to be found for those who desire to seek out the good and are forgiving of the shortcomings associated with being human.

Thank you, Keep the Faith! and welcome to the forum. I might add, the Book of Mormon itself is a latter-day work and a wonder!

DrJones wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

Perhaps I can suggest something a bit more productive for you to give your non member friends Aussie. There is much good done throughout the world by faithful Saints who strive to emulate the example of the Savior in their lives. Here is an example of some of those fruits you seek.
http://www.fruitsofmormonism.com/2013/0 ... eveal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would also supply your friends with the latest general conference issue of the Ensign. There are many wonderful examples of good fruits associated with the church in the inspired words of those who are called to preside in this church. As I said before you can find whatever you are looking for when it comes to the fruits of the church. I choose to look for the positive enriching things that the Gospel has provided people all over world. There is much to be found for those who desire to seek out the good and are forgiving of the shortcomings associated with being human.

Thank you, Keep the Faith! and welcome to the forum. I might add, the Book of Mormon itself is a latter-day work and a wonder!

Thank you Dr. Jones. I love the BOM with its powerful witness for Christ. We as members of the church are so fortunate to have this marvelous book of scripture to guide us through life's challenging times. I can see that you use it often in your life. God bless you for doing so.

AussieOI,

There are miracles being performed as we speak by the power of the priesthood. I am a personal witness of some of those miracles. And I do not speak of menial things. I speak of healing, of ministration, of the gift of tongues.

I think you are at a crossroad in your life. I can see from what you write you are a man of faith. So, schedule a test with God. I am sure He will not be angry if you do so. Pray and study the Book of Mormon for a forthnight. I know I may sound petulant, and somewhat misplaced given your doubts and hesitations, but be assured that, once you do what i suggest, you shall know why I asked you to do it. Besides, it's only two weeks of a life of hopefully many years to come!

If you are inactive now, so have I been. And two weeks is what it takes for the Lord to turn over one's life.


Dr. Jones,

Thanks for your thoughts on priesthood. Let me add that the only way of being sure that the priesthood works is by using it. So if anyone has doubts, just pray for an occasion to use the priesthood. That occasion shall come. Using the priesthood is the vital part of the Lord's plan to build faith, confidence and meekness among the saints.

Thank you,Keep the Faith and francisco.

Do you know Francisco Celani by any chance? He is the Italian researcher working on "cold fusion", and a good friend of mine.
Attached is a photo of us from last week at ICCf-18.

Anyone read the history of the Freiberg Temple? I'll repost the link. There are 'fruits' and the Work does move forward despite spiritual tripwires and booby traps.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/regional-s ... -latter-da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As construction on the temple progressed, the residents of Freiberg showed an increasing interest in the project. People were naturally curious about the new building, but they must have especially wondered about how and why a church was receiving so much support from the communist regime.[60] As curiosity turned into respect, individuals began to refer to the beautiful new building as “our temple.”[61]

Nearly ninety thousand visitors toured the temple during its twelve-day open house—roughly twice the population of Freiberg. This was double the number who visited the Stockholm Sweden Temple during the same time and nearly twenty times the Latter-day Saint membership in the GDR.

One visitor exclaimed, “You know, around here you’re forced to stand in so many lines, and we’re sick of it. But this is the line I chose to stand in, and I’m not budging until I see in there!”[63] Sometimes fathers waited in line while their wives took care of the children in a more comfortable place; then the mothers would switch places with their husbands in order to save the family’s place in line. Open house hours were normally from 8 A.M. to 8 P.M., but sometimes at closing time there were still crowds waiting to get in. “We simply can’t send them away,” President Burkhardt concluded. “Tonight we are going to stay open until every person that wants to see this temple has seen it.” On that occasion the tours continued until 2 A.M.[64]

The police, normally feared in a totalitarian state, were surprisingly friendly and helpful as they directed traffic and supervised parking.[65] On the other hand, government agents monitored and even photographed all who came to tour the temple. Some officials at the Technical University in Dresden warned their students that they would be “severely disciplined” if they visited the temple.[66] Visitors attending organ recitals in the downtown “Dome,” or cathedral, were cautioned to stay away from the Mormon open house up on the hill. Interestingly, these repressive measures did not have the desired effect. One visitor to the temple open house admitted, “We didn’t even know you were here until they warned us not to come up here. Aren’t we glad we saw this? We enjoyed this more than the tour in the dome.”[67] Local missionaries received many referrals, as many as five to six thousand visitors each day asking for more information about the Church. President Burkhardt reported that four hundred people even asked for baptism.[68]

Elder Thomas S. Monson recalled that in his 1975 dedicatory prayer he had petitioned God to “instill within the citizenry a curiosity concerning the Church and a desire to learn more of our teachings.” He regarded the success of the open house as “a direct fulfillment and response” to that prayer.[69]

Still, communist officials in Berlin wondered why thousands of citizens in the atheist GDR waited in long lines to see the temple. These leaders asked Gunther Behncke, a local government functionary, to report on what was going on there. In response he emphasized the following: first, the Latter-day Saints “work diligently, are honest, and are loyal to the state”; second, they regard the family as important and believe marriage should endure throughout eternity; and third, their faith prohibits partaking of alcohol, nicotine, or other addictive substances. Behncke reflected that these standards were totally inconsistent with the usual norms in his country. “The work ethic had deteriorated; people were getting divorced with increasing frequency, the divorce rate in the GDR being the highest in the world; and ever more people were resorting to alcohol.”

State Secretary Klaus Gysi reasoned that because Church members’ standards were “completely atypical of normal citizens in the GDR,” the Church had no chance of becoming a mainstream denomination there. Yet if they have such good qualities, promoting “marriage that lasts a lifetime,” he concluded, why shouldn’t they be allowed to build a temple?[70]

So...do we throw out ALL the good because some of our concerns remain unanswered?

Lyman Bushman's history of Joseph Smith reveals evidence that Joseph himself was bemused by the Work that came forth through him.

In reading the entire text of the above history I had the distinct impression that Church leaders were as 'surprised' as anyone regarding the unfolding of events leading to the Freiberg Temple; Frei - Berg meaning Free Mountain.

AussieOi wrote:and really, visions, tongues, healings. I'm sorry, I don't see them in our church

Sounds like your eyes aren't open. I've seen all of the above several times over.

Thanks, buffalo_girl; I appreciate you posting that about the Freiberg Temple - very interesting!

buffalo_girl wrote:Anyone read the history of the Freiberg Temple? I'll repost the link. There are 'fruits' and the Work does move forward despite spiritual tripwires and booby traps.

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/regional-s ... -latter-da" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As construction on the temple progressed, the residents of Freiberg showed an increasing interest in the project. People were naturally curious about the new building, but they must have especially wondered about how and why a church was receiving so much support from the communist regime.[60] As curiosity turned into respect, individuals began to refer to the beautiful new building as “our temple.”[61]

Nearly ninety thousand visitors toured the temple during its twelve-day open house—roughly twice the population of Freiberg. This was double the number who visited the Stockholm Sweden Temple during the same time and nearly twenty times the Latter-day Saint membership in the GDR.

One visitor exclaimed, “You know, around here you’re forced to stand in so many lines, and we’re sick of it. But this is the line I chose to stand in, and I’m not budging until I see in there!”[63] Sometimes fathers waited in line while their wives took care of the children in a more comfortable place; then the mothers would switch places with their husbands in order to save the family’s place in line. Open house hours were normally from 8 A.M. to 8 P.M., but sometimes at closing time there were still crowds waiting to get in. “We simply can’t send them away,” President Burkhardt concluded. “Tonight we are going to stay open until every person that wants to see this temple has seen it.” On that occasion the tours continued until 2 A.M.[64]

The police, normally feared in a totalitarian state, were surprisingly friendly and helpful as they directed traffic and supervised parking.[65] On the other hand, government agents monitored and even photographed all who came to tour the temple. Some officials at the Technical University in Dresden warned their students that they would be “severely disciplined” if they visited the temple.[66] Visitors attending organ recitals in the downtown “Dome,” or cathedral, were cautioned to stay away from the Mormon open house up on the hill. Interestingly, these repressive measures did not have the desired effect. One visitor to the temple open house admitted, “We didn’t even know you were here until they warned us not to come up here. Aren’t we glad we saw this? We enjoyed this more than the tour in the dome.”[67] Local missionaries received many referrals, as many as five to six thousand visitors each day asking for more information about the Church. President Burkhardt reported that four hundred people even asked for baptism.[68]

Elder Thomas S. Monson recalled that in his 1975 dedicatory prayer he had petitioned God to “instill within the citizenry a curiosity concerning the Church and a desire to learn more of our teachings.” He regarded the success of the open house as “a direct fulfillment and response” to that prayer.[69]

Still, communist officials in Berlin wondered why thousands of citizens in the atheist GDR waited in long lines to see the temple. These leaders asked Gunther Behncke, a local government functionary, to report on what was going on there. In response he emphasized the following: first, the Latter-day Saints “work diligently, are honest, and are loyal to the state”; second, they regard the family as important and believe marriage should endure throughout eternity; and third, their faith prohibits partaking of alcohol, nicotine, or other addictive substances. Behncke reflected that these standards were totally inconsistent with the usual norms in his country. “The work ethic had deteriorated; people were getting divorced with increasing frequency, the divorce rate in the GDR being the highest in the world; and ever more people were resorting to alcohol.”

State Secretary Klaus Gysi reasoned that because Church members’ standards were “completely atypical of normal citizens in the GDR,” the Church had no chance of becoming a mainstream denomination there. Yet if they have such good qualities, promoting “marriage that lasts a lifetime,” he concluded, why shouldn’t they be allowed to build a temple?[70]

So...do we throw out ALL the good because some of our concerns remain unanswered?

Lyman Bushman's history of Joseph Smith reveals evidence that Joseph himself was bemused by the Work that came forth through him.

In reading the entire text of the above history I had the distinct impression that Church leaders were as 'surprised' as anyone regarding the unfolding of events leading to the Freiberg Temple; Frei - Berg meaning Free Mountain.

I remember a talk given by President Monson years ago where he referenced the Freiberg Temple and some of the miraculous happenings of its creation including a wonderful story about bringing in the temple film past communist govt officials scrutiny without exposing its sacred nature. Here is another wonderful yet lengthy write up about this event that you might enjoy Buffalo girl. I am reminded of the Prophet Josephs inspired declaration made in the infancy of this church when he said:

"Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, Australia, the East Indies, and other places, the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540).


http://mormonmission.blogspot.com/2008/ ... elped.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

Were you told 'to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated'?

or...did you NOT know those things yourself? Did those who helped prepare you for your mission know?

buffalo_girl wrote:

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

Were you told 'to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated'?

or...did you NOT know those things yourself? Did those who helped prepare you for your mission know?

I almost included in my previous post that someone would blame this on the missionaries. (I'm not sure if that's what you are attempting to get at or honestly don't know how it works).

At the time of my mission there was a standard set of discussions with the doctrine that was to be taught, in order, by the spirit. That's changed and there is a different book / guide used now. Today it might not be as carefully scripted a process as it was 20 years ago? (2nd discussion was invitation to baptism for example, not sure if that's the same today).

It's on the church. They bring the missionaries in for intense training before sending them off and none of this controversial stuff is ever brought up. If the church wanted it taught, it would be in the manuals.

I honestly think that if a missionary was teaching the different versions of the first vision on their own that they'd be sent home.

kidsmoke wrote:I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

Kidsmoke can I make a suggestion that might be helpful. Since Joseph walked the earth there have been thousands upon thousands of attempts to paint the restoration of the Gospel through this young man as pure bunk. People have gone to incredible lengths to discredit Joseph every which way but loose. Joseph himself was amazed at the lengths people would go to persecute him and paint him in a negative light. Yet his testimony resounds in the hearts of millions of faithful Saints who have seen his fruits and bask in the love of a personal God as a result of the efforts of this young farm boy.

Why would there be anything wrong with the church focusing on the positives of this amazing young man who was foreordained to this great work and not dwell on every character flaw or mistake that Joseph may have made in his mortal existence. Heavens the naysayers slandering of the Prophet over the past decades is enough and to spare for anyone to stomach.

I, like Brigham Young feel like singing hallelujah when I think of the name Joseph Smith and contemplate all that he did to further the great work of The Lord in these latter days. His accomplishments so far outweigh any frailties of the flesh he displayed. To me it isnt even worth the debate.

As for some of your concerns there are 2 sides to every story. The anti's will present a very one sided argument that often times is extremely dishonest in nature and far from contextual. Some here dislike FAIR but they at least try to give some balance and context to the arguments make against the church and the Prophet of the restoration. Here is just one as it relates to the first vision. Perhaps this might help balance the negative a bit.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's ... n/Accounts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Doesn't really answer kidsmoke's question.

keep the faith wrote:

kidsmoke wrote:I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

Kidsmoke can I make a suggestion that might be helpful. Since Joseph walked the earth there have been thousands upon thousands of attempts to paint the restoration of the Gospel through this young man as pure bunk. People have gone to incredible lengths to discredit Joseph every which way but loose. Joseph himself was amazed at the lengths people would go to persecute him and paint him in a negative light. Yet his testimony resounds in the hearts of millions of faithful Saints who have seen his fruits and bask in the love of a personal God as a result of the efforts of this young farm boy.

Why would there be anything wrong with the church focusing on the positives of this amazing young man who was foreordained to this great work and not dwell on every character flaw or mistake that Joseph may have made in his mortal existence. Heavens the naysayers slandering of the Prophet over the past decades is enough and to spare for anyone to stomach.

I, like Brigham Young feel like singing hallelujah when I think of the name Joseph Smith and contemplate all that he did to further the great work of The Lord in these latter days. His accomplishments so far outweigh any frailties of the flesh he displayed. To me it isnt even worth the debate.

As for some of your concerns there are 2 sides to every story. The anti's will present a very one sided argument that often times is extremely dishonest in nature and far from contextual. Some here dislike FAIR but they at least try to give some balance and context to the arguments make against the church and the Prophet of the restoration. Here is just one as it relates to the first vision. Perhaps this might help balance the negative a bit.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's ... n/Accounts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just going to focus on the "why would there be anything wrong with the church focusing on the positives..." bit.

Because it's dishonest.

This is simple stuff folks. No need to make it complicated.