LDS Freedom Forum

Franktalk wrote:To be angry with the church is one thing, to be angry with a person is another.

So which is more noble, in your opinion Frank?

LesliePOV wrote:

Franktalk wrote:To be angry with the church is one thing, to be angry with a person is another.

So which is more noble, in your opinion Frank?

I accept the teachings of Christ that we should love each other. I would think that anyone who calls themself a Christian would know this. A church has no soul so your question has no meaning to me.

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

You have no right to attack Aussie because his questions makes you uncomfortable. Your discomfort is a good thing as it could lead you to find spiritual guidance. Aussie lives in a land where political correctness is not the state religion. Your unwarranted attack shows the grip in which political correctness has on you.

Vision wrote:

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

You have no right to attack Aussie because his questions makes you uncomfortable. Your discomfort is a good thing as it could lead you to find spiritual guidance. Aussie lives in a land where political correctness is not the state religion. Your unwarranted attack shows the grip in which political correctness has on you.

Indeed! Also, it seems the shoe is on the other foot...IOW, Fort Nine is the one who is uncomfortable with what AussieOi is saying (teaching?). Perhaps it is just as inappropriate (in accordance with current LDS teachings about not questioning LDS teachings), for Fort Nine to dare to question AussieOi. If we were to then follow the precedent the Church has established with the Swedish Rescue, Fort Nine should be disciplined. Is he not now an apostate in his relationship with another member of the Church? He is not supporting AussieOi, a fellow member of the body of Christ.

Regarding the attitude some posters are portraying toward the Swedes....aren't the Swedes still numbered among those included in this teaching?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

In fact, is Fort Nine, by saying such things to AussieOi, also saying them to the Lord?

In fact, aren't what our leaders doing what they are doing in the Swedish Rescue also doing it unto the Lord? Now there is food for thought!!

The scripture in Matthew could be applied to everyone here: between eachother, between us and the servants of God, etc, etc, etc.

The level of fault finding on this board has gone to unprecented levels in the last year or more. Yeah....Not all is well in Zion. No duh. But it hasn't gone to hell in a hand basket either. Our leaders, being the servants of God, are accoutable to Him who has chosen them. He sees all and know the thoughts and intents of all hearts. As much as we declare the truth that the brethren are infallible, so are we...infallible people who are subject to making poor judgements of others, not seeing all, and not privy to the motivations of others.

Noteable on this board is one man who has more cause to kick up his heels against the Brethren than most, if not all the members here: Dr. Jones.

And what does he do? Does he come on here and make a habit of fault finding ad nauseum. No. He is a beneficial contributer in truest sense. His focus is on solutions. Not problems.

A scripture he often posts bears repeating:

D&C112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my gospel unto every creature who has not received it;

Do you see the difference in stewardships here.

The Lord will cleanse what actually needs to be cleansed. And thank goodness it's Him, and not some infallible human.

What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church. He will take care of it.
INSTEAD, we are commanded to purify our hearts, and preach His gospel. Seems to me to be a pretty fair delegation of assignments. I'm already overwhelmed with trying to purify my heart and share the light of the gospel. I'm glad I don't have to worry about the rest.

Does that mean my head is in the sand. No. I know there are problems, or whatever you want to call them. But my faith is that this IS the Lord's church, and he WILL take care of it, in his own way, and in his own time. Does that mean everything will be hunky-dory along the way? No. I think that's part of the test. I think there's a connection to the two parts of that section of verses I quoted. If we become so focused on what the Lord has said is HIS responsibility, we are in danger of being slothful in, or forsaking, what he has commanded US to do.

linj2fly wrote: Does that mean my head is in the sand. No. I know there are problems, or whatever you want to call them. But my faith is that this IS the Lord's church, and he WILL take care of it, in his own way, and in his own time. Does that mean everything will be hunky-dory along the way? No. I think that's part of the test. I think there's a connection to the two parts of that section of verses I quoted. If we become so focused on what the Lord has said is HIS responsibility, we are in danger of being slothful in, or forsaking, what he has commanded US to do.

Yes this is the problem. The Lord's church was also the RCC. The Lord will not interfere with man when he goes astray. Should we not check the church as we do check our own soul from time to time? I think you overstate what is going on here. My goal is to build faith in God, in doing that if I lose some faith in the church then so be it. There is no harm in what I do. It is only perceived harm. Truth needs no defense.

linj2fly wrote:

D&C112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my gospel unto every creature who has not received it;

Do you see the difference in stewardships here.

The Lord will cleanse what actually needs to be cleansed. And thank goodness it's Him, and not some infallible human.

What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church. He will take care of it.
INSTEAD, we are commanded to purify our hearts, and preach His gospel. Seems to me to be a pretty fair delegation of assignments. I'm already overwhelmed with trying to purify my heart and share the light of the gospel. I'm glad I don't have to worry about the rest.

Does that mean my head is in the sand. No. I know there are problems, or whatever you want to call them. But my faith is that this IS the Lord's church, and he WILL take care of it, in his own way, and in his own time. Does that mean everything will be hunky-dory along the way? No. I think that's part of the test. I think there's a connection to the two parts of that section of verses I quoted. If we become so focused on what the Lord has said is HIS responsibility, we are in danger of being slothful in, or forsaking, what he has commanded US to do.

This is a good point. I prayed about this very topic myself since I was concerned about some issues and the direction the church was taking. When I asked what I should do I received almost the same answer as given in verse 27 above. Now I simply worry about my stewardship, and it is a lighter load. I also attend and participate faithfully knowing that it is in the Lord's hands.

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

So how do you think that attitude worked for the Swedes?

You have those answers right, but I wouldn't have faith would I. So keep those answers in your briefcase no?

I love that Doc Jones bring in. I mean the guy was FIRED for calling out gadiantons. With all respect to him, he's just decided it was only the BYU admin that boned him.

LesliePOV wrote: Moreover, just like we have pop-culture ward celebrity types going for the unedifying 'cheap laughs' in church settings looking for validation Aussie seems to have a mutual-support pact with certain other established contributors who really must appear (to the uninitiated) as Anti-Mormon trolls. or they might actually be, as there is no way to verify membership anyway... what delicious fun that must be to report back to your fellow alumni from Mills college that you are a female pretending to be a liberated Mormon wife... (on a website ostensibly for LDS only...) and you're still waiting with baited breath to see whether site admin will ever call you out and give you the boot.

The classic example of that would be Anselm, who is by far Joseph Smith's most vocal detractor on this site. She seems one of those but also may be a different story as a genuine LDS Oxy-Mormon gadfly who loves to poke at male leadership (and where best to do that than in Relief Society... (assuming i am wrong and she actually is a member) So I am betting that, if she is in real life an actual member of record, she rarely misses the chance to dis-respect leaders of the early church and men in general as a very regular attender at least of the third hour of the meeting block.) I see her as likely a graduate of a womens college... a wife who jauntily sports a hyphenated compound-surname, teaches her daughters to do the same, and proudly displays a gay equals sign bumper sticker at church every Sunday--- the last probably especially to disgruntle and annoy all those evil supporters of patriarchal oppression who endorse the Proclamation on the Family.

Actually, it is more likely that some of the more combative self-identified defenders of the faith are the true "anti-mormon trolls."

After all, what better tool to evoke anti-mormon sentiment than a douchey acting mormon?

.

Thanks Linj2fly. So glad you quoted again from D&C 112 -- especially vs 27.

linj2fly wrote:
Noteable on this board is one man who has more cause to kick up his heels against the Brethren than most, if not all the members here: Dr. Jones.

And what does he do? Does he come on here and make a habit of fault finding ad nauseum. No. He is a beneficial contributer in truest sense. His focus is on solutions. Not problems.

A scripture he often posts bears repeating:

D&C112:24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

27 Therefore, see to it that ye trouble not yourselves concerning the affairs of my church in this place, saith the Lord.

28 But purify your hearts before me; and then go ye into all the world, and preach my gospel unto every creature who has not received it;

Do you see the difference in stewardships here.

The Lord will cleanse what actually needs to be cleansed. And thank goodness it's Him, and not some infallible human.

What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church. He will take care of it.
INSTEAD, we are commanded to purify our hearts, and preach His gospel. Seems to me to be a pretty fair delegation of assignments. I'm already overwhelmed with trying to purify my heart and share the light of the gospel...

Now this from Elder Matthew Cowley, lest we forget the power of restored priesthood blessings:

I said, “All right, what’s the name?” So he told me the name, and I was just going to start when he said, “By the way, give him his vision when you give him a name. He was born blind.” It shocked me, but then said to myself, why not? Christ said to his disciples when he left them, “Greater things than I have done shall you do.” (See John 14:12.) I had faith in that father’s faith. After I gave that child its name, I finally got around to giving it its vision. [And the child had his sight!] That boy is about twelve years old now. [And he still had his sight!]

I was down on the Indian reservation when I met a sister who had just joined the Church, a beautiful Navajo woman. ...
Anyway, after I had met this sister, one of the missionaries called me off to the side and said, “A few months ago my companion and I went into a hogan and that lady, that Indian sister, was lying on the ground on a sheepskin. She had been lying there for six long years. We called on her, and when we were leaving she called us back and said in broken English, ‘Isn’t there something you do for sick people?’ And we said, ‘Yes.’ She said, ‘Please do it for me.’” So they got down on their knees and administered to her, by the authority of the priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they left, and they weren’t away fifty yards when she came out of the hogan after them and said, “Come back and see what you have done for me.” She walked.

God does have control of all of these elements. You and I can reach out, and if it’s his will we can bring those elements under our control for his purposes. I know that God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. And if there ever was a miracle in the history of mankind, that miracle is this Church which has grown to its present greatness in the earth.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1975/06/cla ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let us not cut ourselves off from the PRIESTHOOD and the right to give priesthood blessings as inspired by the Lord.
To me, this is perhaps the highest form of PERSONAL REVELATION, and a great blessing to our children and grand-children and others.

I could see the some of the more dense and intractable driving even more of those bright posters away... after all when they sink to the broken record, double-standard troll-type slander... you start to wonder if this is a relative 'hell' ... arguing with fools, I mean.

Brienox is plenty thick-skinned and articulate and lays it out well... but the trolls just keep coming. Any bets on how much longer he stays?

Going up now....

Now let me ask, this Swedish "ex-Area-authority" who has left the Church -- does he still have the power to GIVE PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS?

If you have it -- keep it and cherish it -- and use it to bless others!

The priesthood has been restored via Joseph Smith -- of that I testify. Whether he practiced polygamy or not (I understand he did from the historical record) is much less important than exercising the priesthood to bless the lives of your children and grand-children!

linj2fly wrote:What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church.

Pretty tough sometimes though when the church insists in being actively involved in the affairs of my family, ever judging along the way. For some, it is not a welcoming place anymore.

DrJones wrote:Now this from Elder Matthew Cowley, lest we forget the power of restored priesthood blessings:

I said, “All right, what’s the name?” So he told me the name, and I was just going to start when he said, “By the way, give him his vision when you give him a name. He was born blind.” It shocked me, but then said to myself, why not? Christ said to his disciples when he left them, “Greater things than I have done shall you do.” (See John 14:12.) I had faith in that father’s faith. After I gave that child its name, I finally got around to giving it its vision. [And the child had his sight!] That boy is about twelve years old now. [And he still had his sight!]

I was down on the Indian reservation when I met a sister who had just joined the Church, a beautiful Navajo woman. ...
Anyway, after I had met this sister, one of the missionaries called me off to the side and said, “A few months ago my companion and I went into a hogan and that lady, that Indian sister, was lying on the ground on a sheepskin. She had been lying there for six long years. We called on her, and when we were leaving she called us back and said in broken English, ‘Isn’t there something you do for sick people?’ And we said, ‘Yes.’ She said, ‘Please do it for me.’” So they got down on their knees and administered to her, by the authority of the priesthood and in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they left, and they weren’t away fifty yards when she came out of the hogan after them and said, “Come back and see what you have done for me.” She walked.

God does have control of all of these elements. You and I can reach out, and if it’s his will we can bring those elements under our control for his purposes. I know that God lives. I know that Jesus is the Christ. I know that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. And if there ever was a miracle in the history of mankind, that miracle is this Church which has grown to its present greatness in the earth.

https://www.lds.org/new-era/1975/06/cla ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let us not cut ourselves off from the PRIESTHOOD and the right to give priesthood blessings as inspired by the Lord.
To me, this is perhaps the highest form of PERSONAL REVELATION, and a great blessing to our children and grand-children and others.

Love Matthew Cowley stories, especially among the islanders. Great speaker, if you can find the audio.

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

Warning issued for this post - I'm leaving it as an example of what NOT to do.

Franktalk wrote:

linj2fly wrote: Does that mean my head is in the sand. No. I know there are problems, or whatever you want to call them. But my faith is that this IS the Lord's church, and he WILL take care of it, in his own way, and in his own time. Does that mean everything will be hunky-dory along the way? No. I think that's part of the test. I think there's a connection to the two parts of that section of verses I quoted. If we become so focused on what the Lord has said is HIS responsibility, we are in danger of being slothful in, or forsaking, what he has commanded US to do.

Yes this is the problem. The Lord's church was also the RCC. The Lord will not interfere with man when he goes astray. Should we not check the church as we do check our own soul from time to time? I think you overstate what is going on here. My goal is to build faith in God, in doing that if I lose some faith in the church then so be it. There is no harm in what I do. It is only perceived harm. Truth needs no defense.

No. I'm not overstating anything. I've seen the slide here at LDSFF. The point of my post was the constant fault-finding here. There are some who are perfectly content to sit in the rut of their doubts (or anger) and not move forward to resolve their crisis of faith. This is in contrast to those who are sincerely trying to find resolution.

BTW, I'm less like to take anyone seriously (speaking generally, not specifically to you, Franktalk) who talks about building faith in God and Christ, and seeking an audience with Them, who then in the next sentence complains about or maligns his brother, whether they are a GA or a member of the Church or this Forum. Don't you think that if one is moving to 'higher ground' that the fruits of charity would be produced? I feel the opposite on this Forum. So much fault-finding, murmuring and complaining. These are not the fruits of the Spirit. The scriptures are very clear that we are not supposed to do this to eachother, anyone...spouse, brother, sister, leaders. It doesn't matter.

There is nothing wrong with going to the Lord for re-affirmation of the divinity of this, His Church. As for the verses I quoted--if you are not sure this is His Church, than those scriptures are irrelevant, or at least pre-mature. If you do, however, believe this IS His church, his edict is sharply clear: focus on your own purification, share the gospel, and leave the affairs of HIS church to him. We are so very unqualified to right His ship.

ajax wrote:

linj2fly wrote:What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church.

Pretty tough sometimes though when the church insists in being actively involved in the affairs of my family, ever judging along the way. For some, it is not a welcoming place anymore.

I completely get what you are saying, Ajax. I've experienced it myself, but it's part of life to deal with eachother's imperfections. We all signed up for this big rock tumbler. It hurts. I am very sympathetic to some of the things you've posted about your family's experiences. I've adopted Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' philosophy. Not physically, obviously, but spiritually. There are boundaries we've drawn around our family. I've done it enough that it doesn't bother me to have to do it anymore. When I know our boundaries are approved of the Lord, our confidence improves. I've experience unwelcomeness as well, and as much as that hurts, at the end of the day, that is not why I need to go. I go to receive the sacrament, and to serve. End of Story. We are not the only ones in history that have had to deal with that. BOM comes to mind: Helaman 3 is my favorite example.

Dr. Jones, thank you for your comments about the priesthood. I have a huge testimony of it's power. Let me just say to those who think we should be having more miracles: they are present. They are happening so much more than you know. I have witnessed and been a part of many miracles and healings that were wrought by the power of the priesthood. It is so real. So powerful. The covenants we make are real and have power to them when we are obedient to God. Sometimes the miracles are instant, and sometimes they take awhile. But it is happening. All the time.

AussieOi wrote:Interesting

so tell me, what is the very close counterfeit to the Lord's real church.


other Christian denominations aren't even close

and really, visions, tongues, healings. I'm sorry, I don't see them in our church

Interesting way to put it. So if you don't see them, do you EXPERIENCE them? Have you ever? No one you know in the church has experienced them? Serious?

JohnnyL wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Interesting
so tell me, what is the very close counterfeit to the Lord's real church.
other Christian denominations aren't even close
and really, visions, tongues, healings. I'm sorry, I don't see them in our church

Interesting way to put it. So if you don't see them, do you EXPERIENCE them? Have you ever? No one you know in the church has experienced them? Serious?

Numerous visions, dreams, speaking in tongues, healings, angelic ministrations, and other miracles have happened within my own circle of friends, let alone elsewhere in the church. These things still happen today. I wish that such things were more publicly acknowledged and accepted in the church, or be it, in general settings, as opposed to just private circles.

jo1952 wrote:

Vision wrote:

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

You have no right to attack Aussie because his questions makes you uncomfortable. Your discomfort is a good thing as it could lead you to find spiritual guidance. Aussie lives in a land where political correctness is not the state religion. Your unwarranted attack shows the grip in which political correctness has on you.

Indeed! Also, it seems the shoe is on the other foot...IOW, Fort Nine is the one who is uncomfortable with what AussieOi is saying (teaching?). Perhaps it is just as inappropriate (in accordance with current LDS teachings about not questioning LDS teachings), for Fort Nine to dare to question AussieOi. If we were to then follow the precedent the Church has established with the Swedish Rescue, Fort Nine should be disciplined. Is he not now an apostate in his relationship with another member of the Church? He is not supporting AussieOi, a fellow member of the body of Christ.

Regarding the attitude some posters are portraying toward the Swedes....aren't the Swedes still numbered among those included in this teaching?

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

In fact, is Fort Nine, by saying such things to AussieOi, also saying them to the Lord?

In fact, aren't what our leaders doing what they are doing in the Swedish Rescue also doing it unto the Lord? Now there is food for thought!!

No doubt you will have the honor to sit in the judgment seat to judge Christ for whipping others, and then to remind him that by sending Satan and his to outer darkness, he is doing the same to himself.

JohnnyL wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Interesting

so tell me, what is the very close counterfeit to the Lord's real church.


other Christian denominations aren't even close

and really, visions, tongues, healings. I'm sorry, I don't see them in our church

Interesting way to put it. So if you don't see them, do you EXPERIENCE them? Have you ever? No one you know in the church has experienced them? Serious?

Obviously he brings up a good point in that the counterfeit would be an apostate version of the real thing as far as the churches here below in mortality.... and there will also the the AUTHENTIC church of the Lamb in the next life??? the other so-called 'Christian' denoms really not even a close second.

still think about the city of Enoch. big BIG diff!

I can just say that maybe in part because of my discourse here on this site,,, even tho' objectionably defensive to some... I think it may have contributed to my enjoyment of church today...

after all, despite the warts, where else should I go? who else even has the hopes of visions, healings, etc? Maybe if the Amish actually had the Priesthood?

DrJones wrote:Now let me ask, this Swedish "ex-Area-authority" who has left the Church -- does he still have the power to GIVE PRIESTHOOD BLESSINGS?

If you have it -- keep it and cherish it -- and use it to bless others!

The priesthood has been restored via Joseph Smith -- of that I testify. Whether he practiced polygamy or not (I understand he did from the historical record) is much less important than exercising the priesthood to bless the lives of your children and grand-children!

Very interesting point that

I have learned it is faith that makes the blessing work.

ajax wrote:

linj2fly wrote:What is our assignment? He SPECIFICALLY says not to concern ourselves about the affairs of HIS church.

Pretty tough sometimes though when the church insists in being actively involved in the affairs of my family, ever judging along the way. For some, it is not a welcoming place anymore.

I thought there Was a process in the d and c enabling members to seek accountability from rogue leaders?

Why would god give that to us?

JulesGP wrote:

Fort Nine wrote:AussiOi, I really hope you aren't a member as your signature states. If you are, what an embarrassment. If you aren't a member, just go away. This is the lds freedom forum. Your agenda is a joke.

Warning issued for this post - I'm leaving it as an example of what NOT to do.

Its alright Jules.
Its not as though a few of us pretty well ONLY stick to a very few threads, conscious to NOT drag down other people's positive / growth conversations in those threads.

Its not as though these aren't VERY REAL matters of
for a few of us, who have been pretty clear putting our heartsells on our sleeves.

Naaa, not at all.

its not like we are pleading for answers, and not plausibly deniable apologetics

I was reading about apologetics, and read this



The use of apologetics creates uncertainty in members about their own doubts. Apologetics shores up dogma by making re-evaluation of beliefs more risky, and apologists work hard to create the illusion that “all is well in Zion—the smart, educated, faithful Mormons have it all figured out and there is nothing to worry your pretty little head about. Now get back to paying, praying, and obeying. The intended influence of apologetics is to depress the natural inclination for inquisitive members to seek information outside the narrow confines of Mormon-created scholarship. As McCue has said, “the objective of much of what FARMS produces [is] to persuade Mormons not to bother looking at sources of information that question their point of view.”

linj2fly wrote:I completely get what you are saying, Ajax. I've experienced it myself, but it's part of life to deal with eachother's imperfections. We all signed up for this big rock tumbler. It hurts. I am very sympathetic to some of the things you've posted about your family's experiences. I've adopted Florida's 'Stand Your Ground' philosophy. Not physically, obviously, but spiritually. There are boundaries we've drawn around our family. I've done it enough that it doesn't bother me to have to do it anymore. When I know our boundaries are approved of the Lord, our confidence improves. I've experience unwelcomeness as well, and as much as that hurts, at the end of the day, that is not why I need to go. I go to receive the sacrament, and to serve. End of Story. We are not the only ones in history that have had to deal with that. BOM comes to mind: Helaman 3 is my favorite example.

linj2fly, I understand, but that's a pretty tough sell to those who have already checked out.