Your home for discussing politics, the restored gospel of Jesus Christ, and the principles of liberty.
https://ldsfreedomforum.com/
This doesn't sound like Christ's church.francisco.colaco wrote:... be a man once and for all and leave.
I think a lot of people have. I for one just ignored the issues I didn't like and regularly told myself that I didn't understand all of God's ways. I think it was easy to ignore because I've felt amazingly good things about the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and our Savior Jesus Christ.PSCahill wrote:AGStacker said:
Rock's post "Why I'm Abandoning Polygamy" is a good read.
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2010/ ... ygamy.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have to say that post has changed my view of life and the church.
In a very positive way. I have been struggling with the "wheat and tares" syndrome for some time now.
When I have seen things in church history that make my head spin, I hardly know how to think about these things.
But this post has somehow given me the strength and courage to think again.
I have prayed so much about this, and it seems to me to be truth.
The level of documentation in the book Rock addresses is amazing.
I feel like my faith in the church has been restored, rather than challenged, because my faith in Joseph has been restored.
I wonder if anyone else has felt this way?
Are you serious with this? You just want people to leave the church?? Easier to get rid of those who question churchfrancisco.colaco wrote:Christ was targetted by all sides: by pharisees, by saducees, by essenians. Those groups often hated each other, but were pretty united on the Son of David, and rightful king of Israel. Most of those that accused Christ were jews that professed the antecipation (yes, as in Church of Antecipation, look it up!). And yet, when the Messiah they waited on came, they made sure He was crucified.
I wonder not that Pres. Monson does and will always receive the same treatment, targetted from all sides. Only a false prophet would be honoured by Babylon (actually, if you read Revelation...)
I will not deal with Joseph Smith, Aussie (and I reiterate that a bit of education and respect does us both good, and preservers the good and well deserved name of Australia and of australians) because there is no problem. The young lady in question 1) was not pregnant of Joseph Smith, and did not bear his biological child, 2) Emma Smith was not easy to deal with, and would really expel Mr. Joseph out the door if he even did dream on taking another wife. Emma never never once admit to Joseph's polygamy (the kern, in fact, of the eastern Mormon churches beliefs). Moreover, remember that if a letter from Joseph Smith's descendant is accurate (as placed on another thread) Emma did voice her claim recently that she did only not go West because she was tired and could not stand such a journey. Approving the LDS church, she told her descendant to follow his heart and join the LDS church. For me, that is enough.
Now, Aussie, if you have a problem with the Chuch doctrine, and do not want to make the effort and feel the pain of regaining your position, be a man once and for all and leave. Leave and forget you were ever an LDS. That is the manly thing to do. From where I stand, I see a resentful person that does not want to belong, but can't also leave. That is, by the way, cataloged as a form of mental illness. Unless you can tell us you have doubts that you want to see resolved, and are earnestly seeking help and opinions, you have better in living your life not being LDS at all. Forgetting and moving on, leaving those that believe believe at will,and moving to a fishing forum or to a washing machines repair forum, is a mark of an adult.
Whatever the outcome is with your life, I wish you the best of luck. I could place a bet that within five years you will be returning to the LDS core, probably after a good godly bashing (it happens, God does not leave us completely alone, and sometimes not alone means a lott'a suffering!). Just rethink your life, be LDS or leave, wasting no time on hurch members. If you choose to remain LDS, and I suppose you are well worthy of being LDS, restart paying your tithing and make a sincere effort. Give the Lord a chance or, as I and others have painfully discovered, a day will come when you will feel it's [INSERT YOUR NAME HERE] season. You are too valuable for the Lord, so, sorry!, there will be no painless way to either leave or rejoin the Church.
On the lighter side, you are aussie, and should therefore be tough as a bull!
A restoration is a reconditioning, a bringing back to original condition. Through Joseph Smith, Christ's ancient church was being brought back into its original condition. The original church had become rusted and decayed....but it was still here; it was in need of being restored. Joseph Smith did not create a brand new church; he restored the one that was already here.francisco.colaco wrote: So, Joseph Smith was a prophet. Was he a prophet until the very last day of his life? I believe he was. There are, though, many churches that are founded on the belief that Joseph Smith fell away at some point in his life. Well, I believe that if he did, the members of the Church would have been dispersed and the Church would have been a mere footnote in some academic study on the first half of the XIX century regional religious restorationist religious movements in the eastern United States.
I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet o God up to the last day of his terrenial existence, and a freekin' good one, if I might add. As this is a LDS forum, I say that whomever has the audacity to proclaim that Joseph Smith was no prophet os was a fallen prophet bears the burden of providing evidence, if there is such a thing.
I told once to a communist that was trying to tell me and an audience that God does not exist: five seconds after death there are no atheists, and we can all agree on that. In the same fashion, five seconds after death any of us will be fully enlightened as to if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has God's approval or not.
Amen.AGStacker wrote:Aussie, I would ignore francisco.colaco's request.
God is happy that you are searching for truth! Continue to do so with I and others! It will only enlighten you more and set you free! You wont be subservient to the commandments of men but God's commandments will bring you onto higher plains!
jo1952 wrote:A restoration is a reconditioning, a bringing back to original condition. Through Joseph Smith, Christ's ancient church was being brought back into its original condition. The original church had become rusted and decayed....but it was still here; it was in need of being restored. Joseph Smith did not create a brand new church; he restored the one that was already here.francisco.colaco wrote: So, Joseph Smith was a prophet. Was he a prophet until the very last day of his life? I believe he was. There are, though, many churches that are founded on the belief that Joseph Smith fell away at some point in his life. Well, I believe that if he did, the members of the Church would have been dispersed and the Church would have been a mere footnote in some academic study on the first half of the XIX century regional religious restorationist religious movements in the eastern United States.
I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet o God up to the last day of his terrenial existence, and a freekin' good one, if I might add. As this is a LDS forum, I say that whomever has the audacity to proclaim that Joseph Smith was no prophet os was a fallen prophet bears the burden of providing evidence, if there is such a thing.
I told once to a communist that was trying to tell me and an audience that God does not exist: five seconds after death there are no atheists, and we can all agree on that. In the same fashion, five seconds after death any of us will be fully enlightened as to if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has God's approval or not.
I don't think the junior architect (Joseph Smith) sent in to repair and restore the ancient church was greater than the original architect (Jesus Christ). Your comments lead me to think that you believe otherwise. Jesus Christ was the greatest Prophet of all. Why did His ancient church need to be restored? Were His efforts not good enough to withstand time?
Is the RCC one of God's churches? Are the Protestant denominations God's churches? If you say no to either of those questions, then I would offer that according to your reasoning, Jesus Christ's ancient church (out of which these churches grew) would have been just a mere footnote in the history of mankind. If the RCC and other churches are NOT outgrowths of the ancient church, then the ancient church ceased to be a long time ago. It would not have needed restoration. You can't restore something that does not exist. You have to create all over again.
The Restored Church is now also in need of repair. The junior architect could not perform a restoration that could hold up better than what the original architect did. It is due to the actions of mankind that organized religions begin to distort their foundational beliefs. This has nothing to do with the architects. Mankind still has their own free agency which God will not take away. God will not contol the decisions men make inside of churches. If He did, He would cease to be God.
Thank you, I have not read that particular book; but I have read and studied quite a bit about apostate Christianity. So,are you then agreeing that Christ's efforts to establish His church met with failure? Are you saying that Joseph Smith's efforts are more successful than Christ's? Is Father going to support Joseph's efforts more than He supported Christ's efforts? Is Father going to take away man's free agency this time in order to not allow the loss of Priesthood authority? Did God change?keep the faith wrote:jo1952 wrote:
A restoration is a reconditioning, a bringing back to original condition. Through Joseph Smith, Christ's ancient church was being brought back into its original condition. The original church had become rusted and decayed....but it was still here; it was in need of being restored. Joseph Smith did not create a brand new church; he restored the one that was already here.
I don't think the junior architect (Joseph Smith) sent in to repair and restore the ancient church was greater than the original architect (Jesus Christ). Your comments lead me to think that you believe otherwise. Jesus Christ was the greatest Prophet of all. Why did His ancient church need to be restored? Were His efforts not good enough to withstand time?
Is the RCC one of God's churches? Are the Protestant denominations God's churches? If you say no to either of those questions, then I would offer that according to your reasoning, Jesus Christ's ancient church (out of which these churches grew) would have been just a mere footnote in the history of mankind. If the RCC and other churches are NOT outgrowths of the ancient church, then the ancient church ceased to be a long time ago. It would not have needed restoration. You can't restore something that does not exist. You have to create all over again.
The Restored Church is now also in need of repair. The junior architect could not perform a restoration that could hold up better than what the original architect did. It is due to the actions of mankind that organized religions begin to distort their foundational beliefs. This has nothing to do with the architects. Mankind still has their own free agency which God will not take away. God will not contol the decisions men make inside of churches. If He did, He would cease to be God.
Might I suggest you read The Great Apostasy by Talmage and study the history of apostate Christianity Jo. There was a big reason why the Lord said to Joseph that all the creeds had become an abomination in his sight. Priesthood authority was lost from the earth and needed to be restored through the Prophet of the Lord Joseph Smith JR.
John Taylor
I would be surprised if ten percent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek priesthood will remain faithful to the gospel at the time of the seventh president and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them. (Minutes of a meeting, September 7, 1886)
G. Q. Cannon
The day will come when man’s priesthood and authority will be called to question, and you will find that there will be hundreds who have no priesthood, but who believe they hold it, they are holding only an office in the church. (Truth, 3:153)
Joseph Fielding Smith
It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)
H. Verlan Anderson
To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the church are again “falling away” would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history. Especially is this true in light of the fact that the cultural, political, and educational life of Church members has become so deeply and thoroughly involved with that of non-members that they are overwhelmingly influenced by the “ways of the world.” Through newspapers and magazines, motion pictures and television, schools and lecture halls, and a thoroughly integrated economic system, Church members come into close and continuous contact with those not of their faith.
Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. (The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, pp. 169-170)
jo1952 wrote:Thank you, I have not read that particular book; but I have read and studied quite a bit about apostate Christianity. So,are you then agreeing that Christ's efforts to establish His church met with failure? Are you saying that Joseph Smith's efforts are more successful than Christ's? Is Father going to support Joseph's efforts more than He supported Christ's efforts? Is Father going to take away man's free agency this time in order to not allow the loss of Priesthood authority? Did God change?keep the faith wrote:jo1952 wrote:
A restoration is a reconditioning, a bringing back to original condition. Through Joseph Smith, Christ's ancient church was being brought back into its original condition. The original church had become rusted and decayed....but it was still here; it was in need of being restored. Joseph Smith did not create a brand new church; he restored the one that was already here.
I don't think the junior architect (Joseph Smith) sent in to repair and restore the ancient church was greater than the original architect (Jesus Christ). Your comments lead me to think that you believe otherwise. Jesus Christ was the greatest Prophet of all. Why did His ancient church need to be restored? Were His efforts not good enough to withstand time?
Is the RCC one of God's churches? Are the Protestant denominations God's churches? If you say no to either of those questions, then I would offer that according to your reasoning, Jesus Christ's ancient church (out of which these churches grew) would have been just a mere footnote in the history of mankind. If the RCC and other churches are NOT outgrowths of the ancient church, then the ancient church ceased to be a long time ago. It would not have needed restoration. You can't restore something that does not exist. You have to create all over again.
The Restored Church is now also in need of repair. The junior architect could not perform a restoration that could hold up better than what the original architect did. It is due to the actions of mankind that organized religions begin to distort their foundational beliefs. This has nothing to do with the architects. Mankind still has their own free agency which God will not take away. God will not contol the decisions men make inside of churches. If He did, He would cease to be God.
Might I suggest you read The Great Apostasy by Talmage and study the history of apostate Christianity Jo. There was a big reason why the Lord said to Joseph that all the creeds had become an abomination in his sight. Priesthood authority was lost from the earth and needed to be restored through the Prophet of the Lord Joseph Smith JR.
Count me in. But also count me in on anyone who comes to Christ and repents. I could care less about the rest of doctrine. It does not matter to Jesus and it does not matter to me. My sins will be forgiven as well as all men. Why would I look at one person as somewhat forgiven and another as mostly forgiven, and then another as not forgiven. We all fall short but we all will be clean. Even the goats will be clean after God is done with them. If we look to the Kingdom then we see everyone clean. All of the unclean things we will leave behind. But the spirit children of God will be there.ajax wrote: Aussie, Fred, whatever...I'd be glad to fellowship and worship with you any day of the week - questions, concerns, warts and all (speaking of myself mostly).
AGStacker wrote:keep the faith,
John Taylor
I would be surprised if ten percent of those who claim to hold the Melchizedek priesthood will remain faithful to the gospel at the time of the seventh president and that there would be thousands that think they hold the priesthood at that time, but would not have it properly conferred upon them. (Minutes of a meeting, September 7, 1886)
G. Q. Cannon
The day will come when man’s priesthood and authority will be called to question, and you will find that there will be hundreds who have no priesthood, but who believe they hold it, they are holding only an office in the church. (Truth, 3:153)
Joseph Fielding Smith
It is a very apparent fact that we have traveled far and wide in the past 20 years. What the future will bring I do not know. But if we drift as far afield from fundamental things in the next 20 years, what will be left of the foundation laid by the Prophet Joseph Smith? It is easy for one who observes to see how the apostasy came about in the primitive church of Christ. Are we not traveling the same road? (Joseph Fielding Smith Journal, 28 December 1938)
H. Verlan Anderson
To fail to consider the possibility that the members of the church are again “falling away” would be to ignore one of the most thoroughly documented lessons of history. Especially is this true in light of the fact that the cultural, political, and educational life of Church members has become so deeply and thoroughly involved with that of non-members that they are overwhelmingly influenced by the “ways of the world.” Through newspapers and magazines, motion pictures and television, schools and lecture halls, and a thoroughly integrated economic system, Church members come into close and continuous contact with those not of their faith.
Some may assume that a “Gentile apostasy” in these latter days cannot occur because Christ’s Church is here to stay this time. They may assume that widespread departure from gospel principles by Church members is contrary to prophecy. While the scriptures do assure us that the Church will continue to exist and be divinely led by prophets of the Lord right up until his Second Coming, they do not state that all, or even a majority of its members will follow those prophets. On the contrary, they foretell extensive, and in some cases, almost total defection from true principles. (The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, pp. 169-170)
The RCC claim they never lost priesthood power. They have their lineage of authority being passed down from Peter to prove it. The Protestants claim that priesthood power is something automatically given when an individual accepts Christ. The LDS believe that the keys and authority and power were lost (as such apparently Christ's efforts were for naught), and were restored through Joseph Smith. Individuals from all three arenas claim they are content in their beliefs because the Holy Spirit has revealed that their beliefs are correct.keep the faith wrote:jo1952 wrote:
Thank you, I have not read that particular book; but I have read and studied quite a bit about apostate Christianity. So,are you then agreeing that Christ's efforts to establish His church met with failure? Are you saying that Joseph Smith's efforts are more successful than Christ's? Is Father going to support Joseph's efforts more than He supported Christ's efforts? Is Father going to take away man's free agency this time in order to not allow the loss of Priesthood authority? Did God change?
It is all about Priesthood Keys here Jo. The Lord needed those vital keys restored back to the earth because of the great apostasy wherein those keys were taken from the earth as a result of said apostasy. Joseph received the keys from those who held them in dispensations past. Earlier dispensational Prophets like Moses, Elias, Elijah, John the Baptist, and Peter, James and John needed to return and restore those keys back to the earth so that necessary ordinances of salvation could once again be performed for both the living and the dead. My testimony is that those keys were restored and continue today unabated through those oracles of the Lord who are commissioned by Him to continue His great work prior to his coming in glory.
Do not misunderstand me. I still see Priesthood power manifesting in the Church; as in ALL churches. I have benefitted from Priesthood powers while in the Church; but also before I was ever a member of the Church. The degree or the types of healings and such taking place as when Jesus and the ancient Apostles walked the earth, and again when the Church was first Restored, are not apparent. Believers in the LDS Church and in other churches witness Priesthood power all of the time. The keys themselves may have been restored in this dispensation, but this should not be confused with Priesthood power which can be accessed at any time. Priesthood power is eternal....it is always there. When it was bestowed to Joseph, this was symbolically done. It was a visual administration of what takes place spiritually. This helps explain why, even after the Priesthood is "bestowed", it is not a guaranty that Priesthood powers will be manifested by the individual "receiving" it the Priesthood. ALL ordinances are visually performed symbolically.keep the faith wrote:"There WAS a time in the early Restored Church where miracles were taking place; just as in the time of the ancient Apostles. Try as I might, I can't find that type of evidence anymore."
I am sorry to hear that Jo. My experience has been just the opposite. To each their own I guess. People see what they want to see. My best to you Sister.
Obviously, Aussie can fend for himself, but...LesliePOV wrote:I'm sorry I don't feel I am in a corner over this. But I can see that by your admission that you are unconfirmed by the HG and that you do not feel the need to be.
That is quite an admission on your part. I think this puts you yourself in a bit of a corner. Maybe this whole website is that 'corner' you speak of?
You are correct, he can, but.... (as you said)... it always come around to the 'but'... right?jbalm wrote:Obviously, Aussie can fend for himself, but...LesliePOV wrote:I'm sorry I don't feel I am in a corner over this. But I can see that by your admission that you are unconfirmed by the HG and that you do not feel the need to be.
That is quite an admission on your part. I think this puts you yourself in a bit of a corner. Maybe this whole website is that 'corner' you speak of?
I believe what he said was that he has sought confirmation, but it was not to be had.
That happens. Probably more often than not, statistically speaking.
Perhaps he is just less HeartSold than others.
An honest seeker is much more admirable than a pompous minion.
Perhaps he is just less HeartSold than others.
An honest seeker is much more admirable than a pompous minion.
hehe, no kidding jbalm, and the church wonders why they have an activity problem.jbalm wrote:Well, THAT was a disturbing glimpse into a tortured mind.
I'm guessing our value to him is as a sounding board.buffalo_girl wrote:Perhaps he is just less HeartSold than others.
An honest seeker is much more admirable than a pompous minion.
That's exactly why he needs to get away from the 'loop' for awhile.
None of us has the answer specifically for him.
When every avenue of potential resolution leads to the same empty room, there is only ONE place to turn.
I've been there. It may occur again before I leave mortality.
God has not commanded us as His children in mortality to depart. Our Savior does not want us to fail. He is working with us to perfect us. To do so is His work and His Glory. He said "I will never leave you nor forsake you." (Hebrews 13:5) He wants us to come unto Him. That is why He worked out the Atonement in our behalf. He wants to gather us, as he said, like a hen gathers its chicks.ajax wrote:This doesn't sound like Christ's church.francisco.colaco wrote:... be a man once and for all and leave.
Aussie, Fred, whatever...I'd be glad to fellowship and worship with you any day of the week - questions, concerns, warts and all (speaking of myself mostly).
Odd how one goes from Gospel Doctrine gadfly in the 2nd hour of 'block' to, pompous minion in the vernacular of the cynical and disaffected... er 'honest seekers' was it JBAlm?ajax wrote:hehe, no kidding jbalm, and the church wonders why they have an activity problem.jbalm wrote:Well, THAT was a disturbing glimpse into a tortured mind.