The Swedish Rescue - Apostasy in Sweden LDS Church

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Will this quote of Joseph's be one that you hold in high regard or one of the few that you think were not inspired:

“I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” Joseph Smith

Inasmuch as this quote contradicts all of the others, I would absolutely question whether or not it was inspired. The Spirit is telling me that it was not.

We already picked this quote apart in another thread and determined that it was most likely NOT by Joseph Smith.

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[jo1952]

“I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” Joseph Smith [/quote'

Inasmuch as this quote contradicts all of the others, I would absolutely question whether or not it was inspired. The Spirit is telling me that it was not.

We already picked this quote apart in another thread and determined that it was most likely NOT by Joseph Smith.

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Thank you Jules. I couldn't help but wonder about this quote which was referenced in several of the posts on that thread:

Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy.”

This made me think about how the most sacredly held records of the Church can now be viewed by the entire world on the Internet. @-) :-\ How are we supposed to reconcile with how our most sacred records fell into the hands of the enemy? This was never supposed to happen. Either Ezra T. Clark was mistaken, or...., or...?

[mattctr]

...we have no direction, no leadership, no answers, to critical doctrinal and historical matters, and facts...

We do have the opportunity to know the Lord.

Everybody has the opportunity to know the Lord. An individual does not have to belong to any particular group in order to get to know the Lord.

Agreed. However, the church with all of its faults, has still managed to invite people to consider the possibility by promoting scripture and the writings of The Prophet on the matter, so regardless of institutional issues, there is a lot of good that can come of having access to these principles... Agreed that there are bad things that come out of the culture, too, and it isn't requisite to be LDS for the Lord to deal with a person, as He can do whatever He pleases...

[JohnnyL]

Ktf, I really appreciate you taking rhe time to do that .
Addressing them. Can I ask
1-4, was that your research and understanding...or is that apologetics?
As an example, what do I take from famikysearch showing he married Fanny in 1835 when she was 14?
And a year before Elijah?

Polygamy: Clearly in 1831. A few years before Fanny. [Let's imagine that (which I believe at this time likely) Fanny had recently gotten pregnant by someone else (as the DNA says). She needs somewhere to stay, and agrees to "all that and more" with the Smiths. Perhaps JS even mantles her negative condition of pregnancy. And?]

DC 132: years later. It was not the start of the whole thing; it had been going on, and some known about it. This "revelation" does not mean the first time anything was heard or known about it.

In between those two date: And much NOT known about it, how to carry it out, its purposes, etc.

See the continuing revelation on work for the dead in DC--somewhat similar.

[AussieOi]

Was 132 polygamy, or temple marriage?

Which is the new covenant?

[Steve Clark]

Thank you Jules. I couldn't help but wonder about this quote which was referenced in several of the posts on that thread:

Ezra T. Clark remembered: “I heard the Prophet Joseph say that he would give the Saints a key whereby they would never be led away or deceived, and that was: The Lord would never suffer a majority of this people to be led away or deceived by imposters, nor would He allow the records of this Church to fall into the hands of the enemy.”

This made me think about how the most sacredly held records of the Church can now be viewed by the entire world on the Internet. @-) :-\ How are we supposed to reconcile with how our most sacred records fell into the hands of the enemy? This was never supposed to happen. Either Ezra T. Clark was mistaken, or...., or...?

Easy now. That's my g-g-g-(g?)-grandpa you're questioning. Just kidding, I don't care. He was probably just as crazy as the rest of us Clarks.

[ajax]

I've made a study of the threads from the earliest threads back in 2006 till a few years later. You can actually Chronicle the change in tone and tenor on this forum.

It's awe-inspiring that you would devote so much of your personal time to such a study. Will you be sharing the results?

[keep the faith]

Ktf, I really appreciate you taking rhe time to do that .

Addressing them. Can I ask

1-4, was that your research and understanding...or is that apologetics?

As an example, what do I take from famikysearch showing he married Fanny in 1835 when she was 14?

And a year before Elijah?



Also, no sex just sealing. Hmm. Ok. But hmmmm, Orson Hyde is dedicating Palestine. Its not as though he wasn't worthy. Who is Mrs Hyde sealed to In Heaven? Orson, or Joseph?

You can understand why people would look at those responses 1-4 and laugh?

Let me ask you a question Aussie. Have you read or seen The Godmakers by Ed Decker? You will find if you do that Decker goes to great lengths to trample on everything that Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. He delights at making a mockery of our most sacred doctrines and forms of worship and blasphemes every chance he can. All he can see associated with our church is negative and dark. There is no light in his lens.

I remember seeing a picture years ago which was kind of an optical illusion showing a drawing of a women. In fact I just found it again on the net. Here it is:

http://brainden.com/images/optical-illusions-big.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Decker and his ilk can only see the old witch in the picture when it comes to TCOJCOLDS. They have no desire to see the beautiful young women because they are only focused and interested in the witch. I find this happens to many people who begin to criticize and find fault with the church and its leaders. All their focus goes to the perceived faults and failing of the church and its Prophets and they spend no time examining the goodness and light.

This seems to be where you are with the Prophet Joseph Smith at present. You are only interested in seeing darkness and faults in his character. You seem to be willing to accept the information that comes from various anti sites at face value yet with those who defend the Prophet and have studied this issue extensively like Brian Hales and some of the folks at FAIR you become dismissive and almost mocking.

I could give you hundreds upon hundreds of testimonies and journal entries given by early Saints who extolled the virtues and goodness of the Prophet Joseph yet all you seem interested in is the dirt that can be dug up about his perceived faults and accusations of bad character. Do you spend as much time reading all the positives given by those who were intimately acquainted with Joseph and called him a friend and a chosen servant of the Lord? It appears from your posts I have read in the short time here that it is self evident you don't care much about that information. Your focus seems to be on what you can get from various anti sites of which there are many to choose from.

All I am saying is that if you look at the fruits of Joseph and see what revelations came through him it would be impossible to label him a charlatan and an adulterer as so many have done. Did the Book of Mormon and the revelations given to us in the Doctrine and Covenants along with myriads of other prophesies come from and evil and conniving pedophile? I guess you will have to answer that for yourself but my witness is a resounding No! Joseph was called and set apart by the Lord to do a great work. He was accepted of the Lord and stands today as the great Prophet of this final dispensation of time. We as members of the church will stand accountable for the things we say about this great prophet one day and as has been testified of we will not enter the highest degree of glory into the eternities unless it is by the approval of this final dispensational Prophet of the Lord.

[ajax]

Be of good cheer, brlenox. The Lord yolks Himself to the sinners and I don't believe He needs you or anyone else to take that burden from Him. I appreciate your desire to know what makes us tick, but your post indicates either you simply don't understand, our that your belief structure won't allow you to comprehend that some of us truly are following God yet simultaneously believing things in direct conflict with the current teachings of the church.

As for Snuffer's last book, it helped me tremendously to reconcile some serious issues I had and gladly choose to remain an active member of the church. From my perspective the only people who have issues with it are those who are insistent on defending every action anyone from the church's past has taken. Admittedly, the book is not for those people. I really think you give Denver too much credit. I haven't noticed him being a source of any of the problems as you see, but as one who shows it is possible to have concerns about history or leadership and still succeed in the Gospel.

Nicely put one4freedom.

[natasha]

Ktf, I really appreciate you taking rhe time to do that .

Addressing them. Can I ask

1-4, was that your research and understanding...or is that apologetics?

As an example, what do I take from famikysearch showing he married Fanny in 1835 when she was 14?

And a year before Elijah?



Also, no sex just sealing. Hmm. Ok. But hmmmm, Orson Hyde is dedicating Palestine. Its not as though he wasn't worthy. Who is Mrs Hyde sealed to In Heaven? Orson, or Joseph?

You can understand why people would look at those responses 1-4 and laugh?

Let me ask you a question Aussie. Have you read or seen The Godmakers by Ed Decker? You will find if you do that Decker goes to great lengths to trample on everything that Latter Day Saints hold sacred and true. He delights at making a mockery of our most sacred doctrines and forms of worship and blasphemes every chance he can. All he can see associated with our church is negative and dark. There is no light in his lens.

I remember seeing a picture years ago which was kind of an optical illusion showing a drawing of a women. In fact I just found it again on the net. Here it is:

http://brainden.com/images/optical-illusions-big.gif" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Decker and his ilk can only see the old witch in the picture when it comes to TCOJCOLDS. They have no desire to see the beautiful young women because they are only focused and interested in the witch. I find this happens to many people who begin to criticize and find fault with the church and its leaders. All their focus goes to the perceived faults and failing of the church and its Prophets and they spend no time examining the goodness and light.

This seems to be where you are with the Prophet Joseph Smith at present. You are only interested in seeing darkness and faults in his character. You seem to be willing to accept the information that comes from various anti sites at face value yet with those who defend the Prophet and have studied this issue extensively like Brian Hales and some of the folks at FAIR you become dismissive and almost mocking.

I could give you hundreds upon hundreds of testimonies and journal entries given by early Saints who extolled the virtues and goodness of the Prophet Joseph yet all you seem interested in is the dirt that can be dug up about his perceived faults and accusations of bad character. Do you spend as much time reading all the positives given by those who were intimately acquainted with Joseph and called him a friend and a chosen servant of the Lord? It appears from your posts I have read in the short time here that it is self evident you don't care much about that information. Your focus seems to be on what you can get from various anti sites of which there are many to choose from.

All I am saying is that if you look at the fruits of Joseph and see what revelations came through him it would be impossible to label him a charlatan and an adulterer as so many have done. Did the Book of Mormon and the revelations given to us in the Doctrine and Covenants along with myriads of other prophesies come from and evil and conniving pedophile? I guess you will have to answer that for yourself but my witness is a resounding No! Joseph was called and set apart by the Lord to do a great work. He was accepted of the Lord and stands today as the great Prophet of this final dispensation of time. We as members of the church will stand accountable for the things we say about this great prophet one day and as has been testified of we will not enter the highest degree of glory into the eternities unless it is by the approval of this final dispensational Prophet of the Lord.

Agreed, ktf...thank you!

[ajax]

How is throwing somebody with concerns into the same lot as Ed Decker a good way to address said concerns?

[FourthHorseman]

Decker and his ilk can only see the old witch in the picture when it comes to TCOJCOLDS. They have no desire to see the beautiful young women because they are only focused and interested in the witch. I find this happens to many people who begin to criticize and find fault with the church and its leaders. All their focus goes to the perceived faults and failing of the church and its Prophets and they spend no time examining the goodness and light.

This seems to be where you are with the Prophet Joseph Smith at present. You are only interested in seeing darkness and faults in his character. You seem to be willing to accept the information that comes from various anti sites at face value yet with those who defend the Prophet and have studied this issue extensively like Brian Hales and some of the folks at FAIR you become dismissive and almost mocking.

I will say this, I believe the problem is that there are some very real warts in our history and that we're doing everyone, members, investigators, and those not of our faith, a disservice when we gloss over the witch warts and just focus on the pretty young woman. There are warts and we need to deal with it. People should not be rebuked, silenced, or dismissed simply because they acknowledge that old woman is hiding in the shadows. We really need to address both images, not just the one more pleasing to the eye.

That being said, I don't think we should lump people observing warts, and those coming to terms that our history isn't exactly what we present it to be, into the same bucket as those who are actively trying to tear down the church.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Was 132 polygamy, or temple marriage?

Which is the new covenant?

What I have learned (and I'll certainly be lambasted by someone for stating this.....), is that the New and Everlasting Covenant is the most recent covenant you have made with God. For example, when you are baptized you make covenants with God - at that time, THAT is the New and Everlasting Covenant for you. Then later in life when you go through the endowment ceremony and make new covenants, THAT is the New and Everlasting Covenant for you.

[FoxMammaWisdom]

Decker and his ilk can only see the old witch in the picture when it comes to TCOJCOLDS. They have no desire to see the beautiful young women because they are only focused and interested in the witch. I find this happens to many people who begin to criticize and find fault with the church and its leaders. All their focus goes to the perceived faults and failing of the church and its Prophets and they spend no time examining the goodness and light.

This seems to be where you are with the Prophet Joseph Smith at present. You are only interested in seeing darkness and faults in his character. You seem to be willing to accept the information that comes from various anti sites at face value yet with those who defend the Prophet and have studied this issue extensively like Brian Hales and some of the folks at FAIR you become dismissive and almost mocking.

I will say this, I believe the problem is that there are some very real warts in our history and that we're doing everyone, members, investigators, and those not of our faith, a disservice when we gloss over the witch warts and just focus on the pretty young woman. There are warts and we need to deal with it. People should not be rebuked, silenced, or dismissed simply because they acknowledge that old woman is hiding in the shadows. We really need to address both images, not just the one more pleasing to the eye.

That being said, I don't think we should lump people observing warts, and those coming to terms that our history isn't exactly what we present it to be, into the same bucket as those who are actively trying to tear down the church.

Thank you 4H! MUCH too much unrighteous judgment/mote-beam disease going on here. The questions Aussie is posing are legitimate and deserve legitimate answers. It is utterly unfair to criticize him for asking and searching for truth.

[Franktalk]

........ We as members of the church will stand accountable for the things we say about this great prophet one day and as has been testified of we will not enter the highest degree of glory into the eternities unless it is by the approval of this final dispensational Prophet of the Lord.

So you will have to explain these:

Mar 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Mar 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Personally I prefer God's type of judgement over yours.

[creator]

brlenox has been banned from the forum for not allowing others the liberty to belief as they will. If you'd like to comment on this issue please do so here: viewtopic.php?p=396813#p396813" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ajax]

Gosh darn it Brian, I wanted the results of his study.

[Gad]

Gosh darn it Brian, I wanted the results of his study.

I think he told us above. He started his study in 2006 (the year Denver's first book came out) and then blamed Denver for every single person that ever discovered an historical issue with the church ever since 2006. DS is the boogeyman. Now he has everyone on here on his list he was making... so watch out Big Brother is on to you.

[buffalo_girl]

Was 132 polygamy, or temple marriage?

Which is the new covenant?

I don't think the 'New & Everlasting Covenant' has anything, whatsoever to do with polygamy. Follow the footnote [a] from Doctrine & Covenants 84: verse 57 - new covenant - to Jeremiah 31...

Doctrine & Covenants 84
52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the [a] new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom pollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.


[a]Jeremiah 31
31 ¶Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

"Receiveth my voice" seems to be key.

I guess if your concern is that the Doctrine & Covenants and The Book of Mormon are inherently flawed because you contend that Joseph was flawed - none of this will make sense.

From my perspective, the Lord WAS very much aware of the nonsense going on in the early Church. He called it! The Book of Mormon was the foundation of the Restoration. The early Saints went off in all sorts of fanciful directions. "Shall the children of the Kingdom pollute my holy land? NAY!"

So...it appears to me that we - NOW - must "remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...not only to say, but to DO according to that which I [the Lord] have written".

I don't know anything about Denver Snuffer.

[ajax]

From my perspective, the Lord WAS very much aware of the nonsense going on in the early Church. He called it! The Book of Mormon was the foundation of the Restoration. The early Saints went off in all sorts of fanciful directions. "Shall the children of the Kingdom pollute my holy land? NAY!"

So...it appears to me that we - NOW - must "remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon...not only to say, but to DO according to that which I [the Lord] have written".

I don't know anything about Denver Snuffer.

Very nice BG.

As in regards to Bro Snuffer, his whole message is to get us to take more seriously the message of the BoM. Most of his books are on that very topic.
He's derided mostly because of his last book, which was his head-on attempt to tackle difficult aspects of history. He places it what he believes is the proper prophetic context, and thus gets called all types of names for doing so. Apostate being the foremost tag.

[keep the faith]

How is throwing somebody with concerns into the same lot as Ed Decker a good way to address said concerns?

I think you ae missing my overall point in bringing in examples like Decker into this discussion Ajax. If you look back in the history of the church some of the most bitter apostates were once members in good standing. Just look at those Brethren who turned against Joseph and began to spread malicious rumors and lies about him everywhere they could find an audience. They were once some of Josephs greatest supporters until they became disallusioned and began accusing the prophet of a multitude of indescretions. Joseph often said the eagerness to accuse is from the devil. In Nibleys great article Critisizing the Brethren he quotes Joseph extensively about the dangers of becoming an accuser of the Brethren. Allegation after allegation has been leveled at the Prophet Joseph over the past 2 centuries. As members of the church wouldn't it be more productive if we don't feed into the constant negativism and accusatory dialogue but instead look for ways to think the best of Joseph and the other Prophets of this dispensation with the damning accusatory evidence grossly lacking in credibility on many fronts? I have given Aussie alternative answers to his questions about Joseph yet he appears to just discount them calling some laughable and continues to hammer on the anti talking points. It appears he has already made up his mind about Joseph and nothing will change his perceptions. I hope I am wrong on that front.

Be that as it may here is Nibleys excellent observations and quotes from Joseph:

"We can always count on the critics: "False and wicked misrepresentations [by members] . . . have caused thousands to think they were doing God's service when persecuting the children of God."82 The splinter group was another phenomenon that began with the Church itself and is still flourishing. The leaders of such, who go off by themselves to live the gospel in its purity, as they think, have discredited the Church, their cause, by breaking the basic rule on which the Church is founded: "No man has any liberty to lead away people into the wilderness."83There were various Rekhabite departures in the Book of Mormon, and such defections are still going on, always based on someone's personal revelation.

People must be proven guilty by positive evidence, or they stand clear. Let no one presume to say this or that General Authority is fallen, or anything else. "No man is capable of judging a matter, in council, unless his own heart is pure; . . . we frequently are so filled with prejudice, or have a beam in our own eye, that we are not capable of passing right decisions."84 "Every man, before he makes an objection to any item, . . . should be sure that he can throw light upon the subject rather than spread darkness."85 Joseph set forth to the people "the evils that existed, and that would exist, by reason of hasty judgment, . . . upon any subject given by any people, or in judging before they had heard both sides of a question."86 "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning."87 No matter what the provocation, "let the Elders be exceedingly careful about unnecessarily disturbing and harrowing up the feelings of the people. . . . Avoid contentions and vain disputes with men of corrupt minds, who do not desire to know the truth. . . . If they receive not your testimony in one place, flee to another, remembering to cast no reflections, nor throw out any bitter sayings."88

"Leave the kingdom alone, the Lord steadies the ark; and if it does jostle, and appear to need steadying, if the way is a little sideling sometimes and to all appearance threatens its overthrow, be careful how you stretch forth your hands to steady it; let us not be too officious in meddling with that which does not concern us. Let it alone, it is the Lord's work. I know enough to let the kingdom alone, and do my duty. It carries me, I do not carry the kingdom."89 It's interesting that people who find fault do not want to be excommunicated. They'd lose their clout with the Gentiles if they were not members of the Church, and of course if they were excommunicated they wouldn't carry much weight in the Church anyway. "Many who have left this Church have tried the experiment of building up the kingdom of God by their learning, saying, 'When we have established our Church it will then be the kingdom of the Lord.' "90 So what do you do if you see folly and error all around you? You continue to think for yourself. That's the first rule, which means to think to yourself. Thought is an inner process. It never reaches finality. "Theories can't be proved," says Hawking, the eminent physicist of our time.91 Joseph said, "We build our own kingdoms and obtain by our own faithfulness our own crowns that will exactly fill us."

So it is with Brother Joseph's advice on the subject. "Let us be faithful and silent, brethren, and if God gives you a manifestation, keep it to yourselves. . . . Do not watch for iniquity in each other, if you do you will not get an endowment, for God will not bestow it on such."92 In an organization made up so largely of nonconformists, conflicts are inevitable, and the leader told them this was one of the ways in which they were being tested. "His personal presence we have not, therefore we have need of greater faith, . . . and I am determined to do all that I can to uphold you, although I may do many things inadvertently that are not right in the sight of God."93 Within the Church itself, said Joseph, "Indeed, the adversary is bring[ing] into requisition all his subtlety to prevent the Saints from being endowed by causing division among the 12 [apostles] also among the 70 and bickerings and jealousies among the Elders and official members of the Church."94 So he covenanted with the Twelve: "I will not listen too [to] nor credit any derogatory report against any of you nor condemn you upon any testimony beneath the heavens, short of that testimony which is infal[l]ible, untill I can see you face to face and know of a surity. . . . I ask the same of you[!]"95 This was a peculiarity of Joseph Smith—to love and esteem people deeply, but at the same time be perfectly aware of all their terrible faults. "Brethren, I am not a very Pieus man," he said. "I do not wish to be a great deal better than any body else. If a Prophet was so much better than any body else was he would inherit a glory far beyond what any one else would inherit and behold he would be alone, for who would be his company in heaven."96 Then he added, "Righteousness is not that which men esteem holiness. That which the world call righteousness I have not any regard for. To be righteous is to be just and merciful. If a man fails in kindness justice and mercy he will be damed."97

[AussieOi]

I need a computer to reply properly.

I have no time for seller, tankers or Martin.
Steve Benson is just nasty. He needs to get a life.

I see 132 as about temple marriage too, not polygamy.

Book of Mormon problems, book of Abraham problems, not adhering to our own scripture in Sacrament I can reconcile.
Curious first visions, hmm, yeah.

Plus plenty of others.

KTT, with respects, they weren't answers to why he married other men's wife. And the girls.

Yet I still accept him as the Lord's vessel

How do I do that? I have to accept god is different than I was taught.

The flip side of that is that I have no personal interest in hero worshipping current leaders, and, imo, our fruits are rotten.

I could very easily go hard boiled on the many, many troubling aspects of our doctrine and history and leaders.

I don't. Please don't invoke the sickness of that film to me. I stay in a few threads only.

I need you to understand the impact on people when they learn FACTS, and they see a witch. Or the duck, or the lady spinning to the left.

Its there KTT. Attitude does not make it go away.
Focusing on the good as you say in some instances just enhances the feelings of entrapment.

These things have to be dealt with. I appreciate your responses, really do. I'm sad its up to you, and the church won't address them. We deserve better, you deserve better

The silence is deafening

[buffalo_girl]

Am I seeing that its leadership is some of its members?

I guess I don't know. I have never had too much 'luck' with any kind of human leadership. Actually, I don't think I look for leadership.

I've always felt good about God's LAW.

Once in awhile I find myself 'in trouble' quoting scripture in SS classes. I can't help it; if certain scriptures twangle the righteous, the Saints will need to take it up with the Lord. Of course, Stephen was bitten, gnashed upon, hissed at, and stoned to death for reading scripture to the religious elite.

So, what's the answer? I would say, go further into the scripture.

Here's something to consider:

Doctrine & Covenants 133
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

3Nephi 26
6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first [gentiles First], to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them [the Gentiles].

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

[Original_Intent]

Hey bf,

Good stuff, but I suggest that there is at least the possibility of misinterpretation of verse 9.

Not saying you are wrong, but it can certainly be read that those who will be tested and that may or may not receive the greater things are not the gentiles, but the remnant of the Nephites/Lamanites.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first [what I think may be referred to here is that the things that they must have first, the Book of Mormon - NOT who shall have them first], to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them [again, not the Gentiles. He is saying that if the lesser things, which they receive first, to try their faith, are received by "this people" - the remnant of the Lamanites - then shall greater things be manifested unto them].

The more I read it, the more I think that your interpretation is a bit of wishful thinking on the part of the gentiles. Not saying no gentiles will receive the greater things, but at least in these verses the gentile role is to bring the things written to the remnant, that the remnant may be tested thereby. I would suppose that there are good things in store for the gentiles that fulfill this obligation! Have we? Are we?

[SkyBird]

Am I seeing that its leadership is some of its members?

I guess I don't know. I have never had too much 'luck' with any kind of human leadership. Actually, I don't think I look for leadership.

I've always felt good about God's LAW.

Once in awhile I find myself 'in trouble' quoting scripture in SS classes. I can't help it; if certain scriptures twangle the righteous, the Saints will need to take it up with the Lord. Of course, Stephen was bitten, gnashed upon, hissed at, and stoned to death for reading scripture to the religious elite.

So, what's the answer? I would say, go further into the scripture.

Here's something to consider:

Doctrine & Covenants 133
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.

3Nephi 26
6 And now there cannot be written in this book even a hundredth part of the things which Jesus did truly teach unto the people;

7 But behold the plates of Nephi do contain the more part of the things which he taught the people.

8 And these things have I written, which are a lesser part of the things which he taught the people; and I have written them to the intent that they may be brought again unto this people, from the Gentiles, according to the words which Jesus hath spoken.

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first [gentiles First], to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them [the Gentiles].

10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation.

11 Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it, saying: I will try the faith of my people.

I totally agree and in my humble opinion I think when the Lectures of Faith were removed from scripture and no longer has the "status" of "The Doctrine of the Church" (which it was for 86 years, under five prophets I believe)... most members have never read it! What a shame!

I believe to wart off "falling away" and "apostasy," members of any "religion" would not fall so easily if there "foundation" were in, as LonF puts it: "Who cannot see, then, that salvation (exaltation, godhood) is the effect of faith? For, as we have previously observed, all the heavenly beings work by this principle; and it is because they are able so to do that they are saved, for nothing but this could save them" (Lecture 7:17). It is interesting to note, that the "effects of faith" are the "attributes of godliness" we develop ourselves... "for nothing but this could save" us. If the Church's focus were to move back to this "internal foundation" ... wherein we judge all life's experiences by the "fruits of the spirit" (Galatians 5) and not the external stuff (which by the way is where most people focus and therefore "fall away" from the truth and apostatize).