The Swedish Rescue - Apostasy in Sweden LDS Church

[Steve Clark]

i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time[/color]

Well sadly - you've come to the right place.

I'm glad Aussie is here. He makes me look more normal.

:ymhug: Love you, mate!

[Franktalk]

......they don't like it how we can talk About finding Jesus by stepping away from an earthly institution.

I really like it when they say that the Jesus we found is actually Satan because the real Jesus is only in the church. Then they say you are damned to eternal hell unless you repent and believe all the GA's.

Of course I have to ask "which GA's?" And I give them examples of complete opposite statements, to which they say only listen to the latest GA. Then I being who I am tell them I am channeling the future GA's spirit which trumps their current GA. Funny, I don't get many laughs when I do that. I guess some people just can't take a joke as a joke.

But seriously, the war over which GA was correct is a war worth having. The peace treaty signed by living GA's does not carry much weight with me. But sometimes the Holy Spirit tells me to knock it off. Which of course I do.

Walk the spiritual path Aussie. None of this is serious anymore and you can poke fun at it. But those who are still in the law see no humor what so ever.

[AussieOi]

Agree frank.

(Thanks also One4- brave to put yourself out there like that. O don't have that luxury, not that you probably don't either)

I find it telling, thread after thread. Same tactic.

Mark, shadow, bob henstra, Frances, STT, same.

Empty rhetoric.
Then the read and pray
Then the you are filled with a foul spirit.
But I only say that because I love you
Not a single answer.
Some of them are pathetic.
Not even enough honesty or integrity to answer 2 questions on how they reconcile it.
Duplicitous wimps
Bullies

[jo1952]

If the Swedes in the Swedish Rescue were actually investigators asking the very same questions, would Missionaries and other members of the Church try to answer their questions in order to convince them to enter the Church membership? Or would they dispose of them like the Church wants to dispose of the members who are asking questions who have already entered the Church? Does the door swing both ways?

[kidsmoke]

Ok.
what happens when one discovers the truth...and it set me free

?

It can be a rough road. Made rougher by threats, name calling, berating and everything other than a simple straight up answer to basic questions. This goes to the highest level as you've probably seen in the Holland / AnointedOne email exchange. Sickening.

If you have a family, probably a bit rougher. Hope you are both on the same page!

My brother and his family are currently going through this. When he came to me last December and explained it, I just listened. My biggest concern was for his family, luckily they are both going through it together. So at least they have that.

Good luck!

[jo1952]

i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time[/color]

Well sadly - you've come to the right place.

I'm glad Aussie is here. He makes me look more normal.

:ymhug: Love you, mate!

But you are still scarey and creepy....sigh. :p

[AussieOi]

Worse than cancer.
enjoy your comments, and appreciate you resist the temptation others at rfm have in just trying to twist the knife at this time.

can I ask if you still believe in God/ Christ?

Ok.
what happens when one discovers the truth...and it set me free

?

It can be a rough road. Made rougher by threats, name calling, berating and everything other than a simple straight up answer to basic questions. This goes to the highest level as you've probably seen in the Holland / AnointedOne email exchange. Sickening.

If you have a family, probably a bit rougher. Hope you are both on the same page!

My brother and his family are currently going through this. When he came to me last December and explained it, I just listened. My biggest concern was for his family, luckily they are both going through it together. So at least they have that.

Good luck!

[keep the faith]

......they don't like it how we can talk About finding Jesus by stepping away from an earthly institution.

I really like it when they say that the Jesus we found is actually Satan because the real Jesus is only in the church. Then they say you are damned to eternal hell unless you repent and believe all the GA's.

Of course I have to ask "which GA's?" And I give them examples of complete opposite statements, to which they say only listen to the latest GA. Then I being who I am tell them I am channeling the future GA's spirit which trumps their current GA. Funny, I don't get many laughs when I do that. I guess some people just can't take a joke as a joke.

But seriously, the war over which GA was correct is a war worth having. The peace treaty signed by living GA's does not carry much weight with me. But sometimes the Holy Spirit tells me to knock it off. Which of course I do.

Walk the spiritual path Aussie. None of this is serious anymore and you can poke fun at it. But those who are still in the law see no humor what so ever.

The spirit of Zion is the spirit of unity Frank. There is no us vs them game of division as Saints in our quest for sanctification. The mentality of division does not become a true disciple of Christ. We are to bear one anothers burdens and receive the Saviors image in our countenance. There is no war worth having if we love the Lord and each other. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

[jo1952]

......they don't like it how we can talk About finding Jesus by stepping away from an earthly institution.

I really like it when they say that the Jesus we found is actually Satan because the real Jesus is only in the church. Then they say you are damned to eternal hell unless you repent and believe all the GA's.

Of course I have to ask "which GA's?" And I give them examples of complete opposite statements, to which they say only listen to the latest GA. Then I being who I am tell them I am channeling the future GA's spirit which trumps their current GA. Funny, I don't get many laughs when I do that. I guess some people just can't take a joke as a joke.

But seriously, the war over which GA was correct is a war worth having. The peace treaty signed by living GA's does not carry much weight with me. But sometimes the Holy Spirit tells me to knock it off. Which of course I do.

Walk the spiritual path Aussie. None of this is serious anymore and you can poke fun at it. But those who are still in the law see no humor what so ever.

The spirit of Zion is the spirit of unity Frank. There is no us vs them game of division as Saints in our quest for sanctification. The mentality of division does not become a true disciple of Christ. We are to bear one anothers burdens and receive the Saviors image in our countenance. There is no war worth having if we love the Lord and each other. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

The Swedes are under heavy burden; and the Church is kicking them out if they don't "obey". That isn't the spirit of Zion. The Church is creating the laws by which division is taking place.

[keep the faith]

Agree frank.

(Thanks also One4- brave to put yourself out there like that. O don't have that luxury, not that you probably don't either)

I find it telling, thread after thread. Same tactic.

Mark, shadow, bob henstra, Frances, STT, same.

Empty rhetoric.
Then the read and pray
Then the you are filled with a foul spirit.
But I only say that because I love you
Not a single answer.
Some of them are pathetic.
Not even enough honesty or integrity to answer 2 questions on how they reconcile it.
Duplicitous wimps
Bullies

I sincerely apologise if you have taken my thoughts to be attacking or cruel toward you Aussie. My intent was to try and help you with your crisis of faith. I have had some experience with false spirits and know their tactics are to create anger and division and bitterness within a person. That is why I recommended a Priesthood blessing.

I am happy to address your issues concerning Josephs supposed marital indiscretions while married to Emma. However you need to understand that those who are enemies to the church have formulated arguments that are based on speculation and heresay and frankly are void of any form of real documented proof. I can accuse anyone of anything and if I repeat it enough times many around me will begin to believe it. Joseph is not here to defend his character and honor so you can choose to believe all the internet dirt that has been posted about him or you can reserve judgement until giving him a chance to respond personally to you. I have chosen the latter. I will not accuse the Prophet of this final dispensation of lechery and ill repute with all the often scandalous accusations leveled against him lacking any real proof. I will give Joseph the benefit of the doubt and worry more about my own indiscretions and faults which by the way are far numerous than were his. Besides I think the atonement applied to Joseph as much as it does to you and I. But for the grace of God go I.

However be that as it may here are some thoughts I have picked up from my reading of some scholars who have researched this extensively. 2 that come to mind are Brian Hales and Todd Compton. I also read some postings from Blake Ostler that are included below. They have scoured thru documents and historical context and I feel they have treated this and other issues fairly. In summary some of what they have surmised include:

1. Many of the marriages attributed to Joseph were what we would call sealings today. The purpose as seen by those involved in the practice was not to create a martital couple, sire children or take advantage of young women, but to provide for being sealed up to eternal life and to create eternal familial relationships with the families of those involved.

2. Brian Hales makes a very persuasive argument that Joseph Smith did not have sexual relations with any women who were still married to another man. His purpose was to have these women sealed to him in a family relationship.

3. Joseph Smith did not have sexual relations with the two 14 year old girls that he "married" or was sealed to and they were both later married to other individuals without any thought of divorce from Joseph Smith. They regarded themselves as fully compliant with their covenants.

4. Fannie Alger (Joseph Smith's 17 year old "maid") was a young girl taken in by the Smith family. It is not clear that Joseph had intimate relations with her. It appears that she did not talk about it afterward but married another man without any thought of a divorce from Joseph. It is quite possible that Joseph Smith did not have intimate relations her. DNA evidence of her first child is conclusive that Joseph was not the Father.

5. The fact is very clear that a lot of what passes for evidence regarding polygamist relationships would not rise above the level of sensational gossip and sometimes slander. The evidence is often unclear, contradictory, and a lot of what passes for scholarly assertion is sheer speculation. That is a good reason for the Church to remain tentative on these issues.

6. Emma told her children to her dying day that Joseph did not practice polygamy. Perhaps if she had been asked about celestial marriage or sealings her answers would have been different.

7. Emma at times approved, and at other times disapproved, changed her mind often regarding whether Joseph could be sealed to other women. Joseph would have been quite understandably confused about where Emma stood.

8. There is no DNA evidence of any off-spring sired by Joseph Smith other than by Emma. There is crystal clear DNA evidence that in all but one case where historians had previously pontificated that Joseph had sired children by plural wives that he did not do so. This is the strongest indication possible that a great deal of what passes for scholarly certainty is really just guessing and speculation.

9. There is persuasive evidence that what Joseph Smith desired was eternal family relationships based on a genuine love for the families involved.

Now this is not all conclusive regarding this issue but it is a start. If we are really interested in determining the character of the Prophet Joseph Smith should we base our determination on what has been written by enemies of the church and the Prophet or should we rather sway toward those who worked with Joseph closely and called him their friend. I guess you will have to decide that yourself. As for me I will show Joseph the proper respect he so richly deserves as one of the Lords most elect servants of any dispensation of time.

[Franktalk]

The spirit of Zion is the spirit of unity Frank. There is no us vs them game of division as Saints in our quest for sanctification. The mentality of division does not become a true disciple of Christ. We are to bear one anothers burdens and receive the Saviors image in our countenance. There is no war worth having if we love the Lord and each other. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

The spirit of Zion is one thing. The world I live in is another. I love all of God's spirit children, it is the outward shell formed by the temporal world I have issues with. I can separate them. The goal for each of us is to be as Christ and walk the spiritual path. The division of men in the temporal world is due to men holding onto things which are temporal. I can ask men to cast off the world until I am blue in the face but few will even hear my voice. The world is very powerful and man does not want to let go of the baggage around his neck. Shortly man will have to decide which side of the fence they will make their camp. The easy path is into the waiting arms of the world where all of the fallen welcome you. The other side of the fence is where the world hates you as it hated Christ. Bring glory to God by enduring the tribulations of the world, then when they kill you as they killed our Savior you can say that you did pick up your own cross and carried it.

Without the fallen there is no tribulation, without the tribulation there is no test, without the test the spirit is not tried by fire, without the trial by fire there is no eternal life. So I do know and properly place the spirits of all men on the path which is the plan of salvation. Even men that are pure evil have their role to play. God uses us all for His purposes.

[AussieOi]

Ktf, I really appreciate you taking rhe time to do that .

Addressing them. Can I ask

1-4, was that your research and understanding...or is that apologetics?

As an example, what do I take from famikysearch showing he married Fanny in 1835 when she was 14?

And a year before Elijah?



Also, no sex just sealing. Hmm. Ok. But hmmmm, Orson Hyde is dedicating Palestine. Its not as though he wasn't worthy. Who is Mrs Hyde sealed to In Heaven? Orson, or Joseph?

You can understand why people would look at those responses 1-4 and laugh?

[buffalo_girl]

Time Out!

The preview didn't embed. Short trailer for New York Doll, documentary about an unusual convert. Here's the direct link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwD04NsnLLg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Find the documentary called New York Doll. Arthur "Killer" Kane bass player for the 'Glam Rock' band New York Dolls worked in the Los Angeles Temple Library prior to the reunion of the band 30 years after they broke up.

Great example of Home Teacher and Bishop assisting a member of the Church and the impact of one man's life on many as far away from Christian behavior as could be imagined.

David Johansen aka Buster Poindexter of the New York Dolls sings "A Poor Wayfaring Man Of Grief" ... the song that Joseph Smith requested just before his assassination... in memory of Arthur Kane. Played during credits at the end of the documentary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4axKHtMNKw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There has to be some good in all this.

[AussieOi]

Thanks BG.

As crazy as this sounds, I find it even sadder when I see this nice stuff, but we have no direction, no leadership, no answers, to critical doctrinal and historical matters, and facts.

Keep the faith did a good job on the polygamy 2 thread.
I disagree with them in the main, but they are "light years" ahead of the historians and churches lame response and reply thus far.

Am I seeing that its leadership is some of its members?

[mattctr]

...we have no direction, no leadership, no answers, to critical doctrinal and historical matters, and facts...

We do have the opportunity to know the Lord.

[jo1952]

...we have no direction, no leadership, no answers, to critical doctrinal and historical matters, and facts...

We do have the opportunity to know the Lord.

Everybody has the opportunity to know the Lord. An individual does not have to belong to any particular group in order to get to know the Lord.

[brlenox]

If the Swedes in the Swedish Rescue were actually investigators asking the very same questions, would Missionaries and other members of the Church try to answer their questions in order to convince them to enter the Church membership? Or would they dispose of them like the Church wants to dispose of the members who are asking questions who have already entered the Church? Does the door swing both ways?

In my short time here, I have clearly noted that the most divisive are those of you who continue to bandy this same rhetoric over and over at every opportunity.

Your mods and several of you have inquired what my agenda is because I find it necessary to stand up for the church and it's leaders against this near constant drivel of condemnation and accusation. However, I notice no team Snuffer players and those eagerly accepting their tainted message altering their agenda one bit. I suspect that since it is commonly the agenda of those in authority that it goes unmolested. In the past several pages of this thread we have heard an overwhelming message of putting down the church, its leaders and even the message of what is doctrine here is radically different from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has become clear that this is not a safe place for those who would defend the church and the Apostles and the Prophets. A day I thought never to see in my lifetime passes before me.

I tell you what...if those of you who have no greater message than condemning that which is sacred to the traditional LDS who are loyal to their Saviors chosen leaders and Prophets would cease bringing up these constant criticisms and insinuations of impropriety, If you would respect our testimonies and our revelations of the chosen of the Lord and his gospel and church, those of us who can only handle the abuse for so long would not find it necessary to risk our opportunities on this forum from the administration who consider us out of line for disagreeing with your "enlightened" message.

If you would just leave off of this divisive and continuous theme we would all interact so much more civilly without the divisive separation that comes about because at some point we feel obligated to stand up and say. "Hey, these are the apostles and prophets that I hold dear and have testimony of, this is the Church of Jesus Christ you condemn, the church which I sustain and in which my family has found the Joy of the Savior in serving in his kingdom. It's temple ordinances provide the hope of my families and I's eternal union to dwell in the kingdom of my Father." ... Just respect us with the same degree of respect you wish to have and we can avoid these kind of interactions. However as long as you folks insist on berating, belittling, bemoaning, and besmirching what is dear to me then I must always at some point plead that you cease and desist in this divisive theme you peddle which poisons the well of any other message you may think important. And yet I'll be the one they maintain has an agenda....

[AussieOi]

Brlenox.
Your intolerance of my intolerance is noted.
Now, you may wish to note the title of the thread, and the content, of which, YOU are coming in here.
If pure kumbaya is your preference, perhaps stick with LDS.org, or, the other 2000 threads here which do NOT dump on the church, like you believe all threads here do.
there are only about 5 threads the defeatist talk are in.

I'd say seeing what I see on the web, its pretty gentle here.

No one has mentioned the word paedophile here have they? Imposter, fraud, adulterer, liar, crooked GA's skimming money from the church.

fake temples.
garments from the 1800s designed to control the sex lives of its members and keep them in total subjugation of body and mind.

nor how they knowingly rob us and god in tithing they know is another lie.

or paying for the right to enter the temple.

I can't say that is our tone.

but I would that you respect OUR journey is different from yours, and either do what keep the faith did, and engage the discussion, and put the pontificating ego away, and let it be if you don't like it.

I get it. You are an engineer.

Does every reply need to be 27 paragraphs of poetic phrasing?

Or do we need to sit at your feet and bask in your wisdom every time you post?

Its the web, its anonymous, and this web site is what it is.

if you don't like it, try any of the other 20000 threads, or start your own.

I'm sure we will respect Any such thread and play that accordingly.

[jo1952]

If the Swedes in the Swedish Rescue were actually investigators asking the very same questions, would Missionaries and other members of the Church try to answer their questions in order to convince them to enter the Church membership? Or would they dispose of them like the Church wants to dispose of the members who are asking questions who have already entered the Church? Does the door swing both ways?

In my short time here, I have clearly noted that the most divisive are those of you who continue to bandy this same rhetoric over and over at every opportunity.

Your mods and several of you have inquired what my agenda is because I find it necessary to stand up for the church and it's leaders against this near constant drivel of condemnation and accusation. However, I notice no team Snuffer players and those eagerly accepting their tainted message altering their agenda one bit. I suspect that since it is commonly the agenda of those in authority that it goes unmolested. In the past several pages of this thread we have heard an overwhelming message of putting down the church, its leaders and even the message of what is doctrine here is radically different from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has become clear that this is not a safe place for those who would defend the church and the Apostles and the Prophets. A day I thought never to see in my lifetime passes before me.

I tell you what...if those of you who have no greater message than condemning that which is sacred to the traditional LDS who are loyal to their Saviors chosen leaders and Prophets would cease bringing up these constant criticisms and insinuations of impropriety, If you would respect our testimonies and our revelations of the chosen of the Lord and his gospel and church, those of us who can only handle the abuse for so long would not find it necessary to risk our opportunities on this forum from the administration who consider us out of line for disagreeing with your "enlightened" message.

If you would just leave off of this divisive and continuous theme we would all interact so much more civilly without the divisive separation that comes about because at some point we feel obligated to stand up and say. "Hey, these are the apostles and prophets that I hold dear and have testimony of, this is the Church of Jesus Christ you condemn, the church which I sustain and in which my family has found the Joy of the Savior in serving in his kingdom. It's temple ordinances provide the hope of my families and I's eternal union to dwell in the kingdom of my Father." ... Just respect us with the same degree of respect you wish to have and we can avoid these kind of interactions. However as long as you folks insist on berating, belittling, bemoaning, and besmirching what is dear to me then I must always at some point plead that you cease and desist in this divisive theme you peddle which poisons the well of any other message you may think important. And yet I'll be the one they maintain has an agenda....

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/whe ... nking-done" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (My comments are in red.)

I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 156-157.) I do not see where the Swedes or where most of those who are questioning the practices or teachings of our leaders are making any claims that the leaders are out of the way while we (or the Swedes) ourselves are righteous.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: “I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please.” This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof. Not today!

On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves.” Today the leaders are governing us.

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” Today's leaders....not so much.

I love Joseph Smith...most of his teachings I hold in very high regard; he Restored the Gospel and tried to build a church of believers he hoped would be able to build a city of Zion. God anointed and appointed him as a Prophet; the Prophet to herald in the last dispensation before Christ's return. Through him, God brought forth the Book of Mormon. That is why I am using his own words in response to yours.

[brlenox]

In my short time here, I have clearly noted that the most divisive are those of you who continue to bandy this same rhetoric over and over at every opportunity.

Your mods and several of you have inquired what my agenda is because I find it necessary to stand up for the church and it's leaders against this near constant drivel of condemnation and accusation. However, I notice no team Snuffer players and those eagerly accepting their tainted message altering their agenda one bit. I suspect that since it is commonly the agenda of those in authority that it goes unmolested. In the past several pages of this thread we have heard an overwhelming message of putting down the church, its leaders and even the message of what is doctrine here is radically different from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It has become clear that this is not a safe place for those who would defend the church and the Apostles and the Prophets. A day I thought never to see in my lifetime passes before me.

I tell you what...if those of you who have no greater message than condemning that which is sacred to the traditional LDS who are loyal to their Saviors chosen leaders and Prophets would cease bringing up these constant criticisms and insinuations of impropriety, If you would respect our testimonies and our revelations of the chosen of the Lord and his gospel and church, those of us who can only handle the abuse for so long would not find it necessary to risk our opportunities on this forum from the administration who consider us out of line for disagreeing with your "enlightened" message.

If you would just leave off of this divisive and continuous theme we would all interact so much more civilly without the divisive separation that comes about because at some point we feel obligated to stand up and say. "Hey, these are the apostles and prophets that I hold dear and have testimony of, this is the Church of Jesus Christ you condemn, the church which I sustain and in which my family has found the Joy of the Savior in serving in his kingdom. It's temple ordinances provide the hope of my families and I's eternal union to dwell in the kingdom of my Father." ... Just respect us with the same degree of respect you wish to have and we can avoid these kind of interactions. However as long as you folks insist on berating, belittling, bemoaning, and besmirching what is dear to me then I must always at some point plead that you cease and desist in this divisive theme you peddle which poisons the well of any other message you may think important. And yet I'll be the one they maintain has an agenda....

I love Joseph Smith...most of his teachings I hold in very high regard; he Restored the Gospel and tried to build a church of believers he hoped would be able to build a city of Zion. God anointed and appointed him as a Prophet; the Prophet to herald in the last dispensation before Christ's return. Through him, God brought forth the Book of Mormon. That is why I am using his own words in response to yours.

Will this quote of Joseph's be one that you hold in high regard or one of the few that you think were not inspired:

“I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” Joseph Smith

[kidsmoke]

Yes I still believe in Christ as my Savior.

My journey out was quite different. I was single, with a huge social network outside of the church. My family is very loving, so no shunning ever. Disappointment and prodding from time to time but very bearable. So it was quite simple.

Worse than cancer.
enjoy your comments, and appreciate you resist the temptation others at rfm have in just trying to twist the knife at this time.

can I ask if you still believe in God/ Christ?

Ok.
what happens when one discovers the truth...and it set me free

?

It can be a rough road. Made rougher by threats, name calling, berating and everything other than a simple straight up answer to basic questions. This goes to the highest level as you've probably seen in the Holland / AnointedOne email exchange. Sickening.

If you have a family, probably a bit rougher. Hope you are both on the same page!

My brother and his family are currently going through this. When he came to me last December and explained it, I just listened. My biggest concern was for his family, luckily they are both going through it together. So at least they have that.

Good luck!

[brlenox]

Brlenox.
Your intolerance of my intolerance is noted.
No one has mentioned the word paedophile here have they? Imposter, fraud, adulterer, liar, crooked GA's skimming money from the church.

fake temples.
garments from the 1800s designed to control the sex lives of its members and keep them in total subjugation of body and mind.

nor how they knowingly rob us and god in tithing they know is another lie.

or paying for the right to enter the temple.

I can't say that is our tone.

but I would that you respect OUR journey is different from yours, and either do what keep the faith did, and engage the discussion, and put the pontificating ego away, and let it be if you don't like it.

I get it. You are an engineer.

Does every reply need to be 27 paragraphs of poetic phrasing?

Or do we need to sit at your feet and bask in your wisdom every time you post?

Its the web, its anonymous, and this web site is what it is.

if you don't like it, try any of the other 20000 threads, or start your own.

I'm sure we will respect Any such thread and play that accordingly.

Aussie I so appreciate that you chose to respond. It plays wonderfully against my stronger tone that your harsher tone goes so often unnoticed. And yes nearly everyone one of the things you point out above have been said multiple times in multiple ways in the past few weeks on this forum so your point is hard to follow. The more egregious slanderous one was actually deleted by the mods.

I've made a study of the threads from the earliest threads back in 2006 till a few years later. You can actually Chronicle the change in tone and tenor on this forum. Sadly you are one that is most clearly not the same as you were a few years back.
You were less harsh, less comfortable in your condemnations, less angry...I am sorry that things have not been more uplifting for you but I can see why. It gets to you after a while if you don't fight it. Best of luck in your search but it will go much better for you to leave off condemning the church and its leaders. That darker spirit of criticism always takes a toll.

[brlenox]

Brlenox.
Now, you may wish to note the title of the thread, and the content, of which, YOU are coming in here.

You bring up a good point which as I was lying in my bed preparing to sleep got me out of bed to give a brief hopefully non-poetic post of why I come here.

First the one thing that seems to keep my insides churning is the fact that so many people are walking away from the church following false prophets, naysayers and others that reject the prophets and the apostles. I can't grasp how they can turn their back on Jesus Christ church - it troubles me greatly. So I come here, because I am interested is understanding what matters enough that it could turn people away from the church.

When I first showed up posting here a few weeks back, Denver Snuffer was just a person who wrote some very interesting books that I had marked up and studied over and pondered and found some agreeable material in. I had not at that time read his last book which I have now taken some pains to become familiar with. It is painful... Still before I came here he was a possibility. At first I just thought you folks were a little group of LDS malcontents - there are always a few. It took me several weeks to realize that it was a chorus a veritable choir of voices that had taken on this message to make an agenda of criticism of the church and it's leaders. Then about 3 weeks ago I realized that many of you were gelling around Denver Snuffer and some aspect of his message, a man I actually thought reasonably well of until I realized what his message had done to so many here on this forum. Once I realized how his voice had created so many dissenters, after I sorrowed for a day or so I decided one can tell by the fruits and I got rid of his material.

I am still and always have been one to sorrow for any who do not know Jesus Christ or his people in the proper light but the most distressing have always been those who had it in their grasp and walked away. I come here wishing I could change the losses and reduce the numbers of those that leave. I don't always fail, but someday's after having to stumble through this constant criticism of the church for days on end and wondering why more voices aren't raised in defense of correct principles I am compelled to speak.

So until my voice is censured so that the cry of those who chastise and condemn can go unmolested then I will be required to voice my opposition to your opposition. You can tell most of you are great people but a bad message is souring the messengers who deliver it. I just wish for better for you.

[jo1952]

Will this quote of Joseph's be one that you hold in high regard or one of the few that you think were not inspired:

“I will give you a key that will never rust, if you will stay with the majority of the Twelve Apostles, and the records of the Church, you will never be led astray.” Joseph Smith

Inasmuch as this quote contradicts all of the others, I would absolutely question whether or not it was inspired. The Spirit is telling me that it was not.

Indeed, if we look at the early Restored Church, it was not uncommon for Apostles to apostatize and/or be excommunicated. As such, there were many times when there weren't even twelve Apostles; so what would a majority of twelve look like, if the whole was not twelve? Even when he spoke this, it would have been difficult to apply it to the reality of the circumstances. And what if you had been following the teachings of one of the Apostles who later apostatized or was excommunicated...it seems that their teachings could absolutely lead you astray. How could members of the Church know ahead of time not to follow a particular teaching? Were votes being taken on what Apostles taught to make sure that only majority-approved teachings were being taught? Please; the logistical application of this quote just does not even come close to being practical. Was "correlation" going on? BTW, "correlation" betrays the quotes I presented; so, if correlation WAS going on, I would reject it as being a legitimate argument.

It is very clear that Joseph supported free thinking, NOT governing the members, and questioning which did not place the questioner in the position of calling themselves righteous while those they questioned as being out of the way.

If you want to complain about those who do not agree with you, or if you want to complain about methods being used which you don't like, you should really start a thread for that purpose.

[Steve Clark]

Brlenox.
Now, you may wish to note the title of the thread, and the content, of which, YOU are coming in here.

You bring up a good point which as I was lying in my bed preparing to sleep got me out of bed to give a brief hopefully non-poetic post of why I come here.

First the one thing that seems to keep my insides churning is the fact that so many people are walking away from the church following false prophets, naysayers and others that reject the prophets and the apostles. I can't grasp how they can turn their back on Jesus Christ church - it troubles me greatly. So I come here, because I am interested is understanding what matters enough that it could turn people away from the church.

When I first showed up posting here a few weeks back, Denver Snuffer was just a person who wrote some very interesting books that I had marked up and studied over and pondered and found some agreeable material in. I had not at that time read his last book which I have now taken some pains to become familiar with. It is painful... Still before I came here he was a possibility. At first I just thought you folks were a little group of LDS malcontents - there are always a few. It took me several weeks to realize that it was a chorus a veritable choir of voices that had taken on this message to make an agenda of criticism of the church and it's leaders. Then about 3 weeks ago I realized that many of you were gelling around Denver Snuffer and some aspect of his message, a man I actually thought reasonably well of until I realized what his message had done to so many here on this forum. Once I realized how his voice had created so many dissenters, after I sorrowed for a day or so I decided one can tell by the fruits and I got rid of his material.

I am still and always have been one to sorrow for any who do not know Jesus Christ or his people in the proper light but the most distressing have always been those who had it in their grasp and walked away. I come here wishing I could change the losses and reduce the numbers of those that leave. I don't always fail, but someday's after having to stumble through this constant criticism of the church for days on end and wondering why more voices aren't raised in defense of correct principles I am compelled to speak.

So until my voice is censured so that the cry of those who chastise and condemn can go unmolested then I will be required to voice my opposition to your opposition. You can tell most of you are great people but a bad message is souring the messengers who deliver it. I just wish for better for you.

Be of good cheer, brlenox. The Lord yolks Himself to the sinners and I don't believe He needs you or anyone else to take that burden from Him. I appreciate your desire to know what makes us tick, but your post indicates either you simply don't understand, our that your belief structure won't allow you to comprehend that some of us truly are following God yet simultaneously believing things in direct conflict with the current teachings of the church.

As for Snuffer's last book, it helped me tremendously to reconcile some serious issues I had and gladly choose to remain an active member of the church. From my perspective the only people who have issues with it are those who are insistent on defending every action anyone from the church's past has taken. Admittedly, the book is not for those people. I really think you give Denver too much credit. I haven't noticed him being a source of any of the problems as you see, but as one who shows it is possible to have concerns about history or leadership and still succeed in the Gospel.