The Swedish Rescue - Apostasy in Sweden LDS Church

[AussieOi]

I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

Understanding the effect of flipping a light switch doesn't require a discourse on electromagnetic theory with complicated math. The purpose of missionaries is to get people to read and pray. Going into complicated and controversial history does not serve this purpose. To people who actually have a testimony, none of this would matter. I don't know all of this history even after reading countless volumes about it. If someone were to pop up with a supposed polaroid of JS consummating his marriage with a 9-year-old, and all the 'experts' agreed it was real, it would have zero impact on my testimony. No matter what anybody says, they cannot take away the miracle I witnessed in response to my prayers, or the numerous miracles since then, and this is the bottom line.

Obviously these brothers and sisters haven't had such a personal witness, or they've rationalized it away, whatever the case may be, I feel sad for them. In 2 Nephi 30-32 the people started whining about "what next" after the spiritual high of baptism wore off. Pray, receive guidance, endure to the end. It's simplistically complicated. The church harps incessantly on the small simple issues because that's truly what matters, the whole point of it all is to be receptive of the spirit. But regardless of the "rules" if growing spiritually isn't an active pursuit, it aint gonna happen no matter how many activities you attend. The missionaries are very flexible in what they talk about, can talk about pretty much anything they like.

Much is true.much is true

much is true.

I just need you to understand what role HeartSell (tm) has and the impact of it when people reflect on just what they 'felt'

[AussieOi]

Ok.
what happens when one discovers the truth...and it set me free

?

Aussie OI,

Maybe your faith is just tired. That happens. Sometimes, when we are overworked within the Church, the Church will seem like shackles. The truth will not set us free, in that particular case. Sometimes, we seem as a Church to forget Christ. We are, individually, imperfect. But a lot of those you know and dwell in the Church are decent and intelligent people, and would go leaps and bounds for you, You know that.

I do not think there is a bad person in you. Nor even a disbeliever. There is a tired person, which is different. In this day and age, a lot of us are being pushed to the limit, financially, emotionally and spiritually. Most of us are in a state of spiritual and emotional bankruptcy, and need some kind of restart.

Buffalo Girl suggested a way for any of us to unstress and retune ourselves to the Lord. That could work. Maybe a fishing rod or a pair of snickers will do better for any of us than all the predications and «nurturing». Anyway, pray and read the Book of Mormon for two weeks, after some physical exercise. If this seems far-fetched, and I know it does, please bear with me and perform a complete reset, spiritually speaking.

[jo1952]

Ok.
what happens when one discovers the truth...and it set me free

?

Now you have some decisions to make.

[AussieOi]

Will they send two GAs out to see me?

[jo1952]

Will they send two GAs out to see me?

They just might. :-s

[francisco.colaco]

Aussie OI,

Have questions. I had them, about every aspect of mormonism you could have dream about, and some that you could not know. They were resolved, one by one. A few questions are left, but hey, if the main bulk was resolved, the rest will be eventually. (To be precise, only one question remains, but Bob Henstra might have indirectly responded to it without even knowing). The rest, from the hemispheric model to evolution, were resolved.

I am pleased to fool people, making them think I am more intelligent and versed than I am. I actually was considering to be a jesuit priest, when the missionaries caught up with me. I am quite versed in philosophy and science, even being a mere engineer. I am not omniscient and require the help of others to form my own opinion (thanks, FARMS and Bob!). That, Aussie, is the key: let others help you, let the Lord help. Loose yourself and lose yourself with no pressure, just help others with you being present and pray for opportunities to serve. (Do not forget your home teaching! )

Aussie, believe me when I tell you that leaving the Church is solution to no problems. You will find it for yourself, with the attached frustration, as I have, if you do not believe me. People like you and me and David Cowdery eventually end up coming back, recognizing the time was lost.

There is a key to really find the truth: give the Lord a chance. A two weeks chance, extendable only if you feel satisfied. Ask for a chance to use the priesthood. Use it, bless the lives of others. And remember, man can only run so much. The Lord requires no more than the rhythm you can bear.

[francisco.colaco]

Aussie OI,

If you need General Authorities to be convinced, you shall never get them.

I could pray to be counseled by John and one of the nephite apostles. Never did, but I doubt they would ever come. I guess they are just too busy for me and, in the eyes of the Lord, home teachers are just as good.

[AussieOi]

Good post at this web site on it.

http://mormanity.blogspot.com.au/2013/0 ... n.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If the 2 top historians that the church could select from traveled thousands of miles to clear up serious questions that Perry was already acquainted with from his visit why is there still a problem that's resulted in a raft of defections? After all, the church has the totality of the historical record in its vaults and they have the guidance seers and revelators as well as the Holy Spirit who surely is concerned about an entire area being in turmoil.

It isn't as though, having traveled from SLC to Northernmost Europe Jensen and Turley had a limited amount of time. There's no reason sessions couldn't have been held on several days giving each question the time it deserved. It isn't as if people who had been pleading for answers for years were going to lose interest. It isn't as if Mattsson hadn't given years of his life in service to see the church flourish and grow. It isn't as if the consequence of leaving these questions unresolved was minimal or acceptable.

A matter of this import and influence required nothing less than genuine resolution and verifiable information that is consistent with the scientific and historical record as well as the full flowering of the spirit.

A person can insist ad infinitum that the Swedish church should be satisfied and must be satisfied but it's clear from the number of resignations that occurred and from the Mattssons' obviously pained distance from the church and sense that Hans needed to be understood that there's little satisfaction to be found.

Perhaps we'll hear from some attendees who did get the enlightenment they needed. So far, I haven't.

[AussieOi]

Aussie OI,

If you need General Authorities to be convinced, you shall never get them.

I could pray to be counseled by John and one of the nephite apostles. Never did, but I doubt they would ever come. I guess they are just too busy for me and, in the eyes of the Lord, home teachers are just as good.

So why do you think the swedes got them?

[AussieOi]

Aussie OI,

Have questions. I had them, about every aspect of mormonism you could have dream about, and some that you could not know. They were resolved, one by one.


ok then

please answer these 2

how did you resolve joseph smith secretly marrying a 14 year old housemaid, and having sex with her?
I have shown on the church's own web site, familysearch. there she is. Fanny Alger. 14

After that, how do you resolve him doing that a year before Elijah came to return the sealing power?

With all respects "I prayed about it, is not an acceptable answer

Also, less critical, but important, Why do you think a god demands fidelity from women, but not men?

A few questions are left,


the church historian. a GA, armed to the teeth with the exact, EXACT questions he KNEW were going to be asked, fluffd around them, didn't answer them, and then disappeared

but hey, if the main bulk was resolved, the rest will be eventually.

there are more?
note, this Sweden thing was 3 years ago
(To be precise, only one question remains, but Bob Henstra might have indirectly responded to it without even knowing). The rest, from the hemispheric model to evolution, were resolved.

and so say all of us right?
resolved.
yeah, okay

I am pleased to fool people, making them think I am more intelligent and versed than I am. I actually was considering to be a jesuit priest, when the missionaries caught up with me. I am quite versed in philosophy and science, even being a mere engineer. I am not omniscient and require the help of others to form my own opinion (thanks, FARMS and Bob!).

good for you. irrelevant

That, Aussie, is the key: let others help you, let the Lord help. Loose yourself and lose yourself with no pressure, just help others with you being present and pray for opportunities to serve. (Do not forget your home teaching! )

seriously, this is just soporific dribble
im sorry
home teaching?
thats what brings the lord to my life?
thats the high point of LDS service?>
and who do you suppose wants to hear me and my doubting bro?

Aussie, believe me when I tell you that leaving the Church is solution to no problems. You will find it for yourself, with the attached frustration, as I have, if you do not believe me. People like you and me and David Cowdery eventually end up coming back, recognizing the time was lost.

There is a key to really find the truth: give the Lord a chance. A two weeks chance, extendable only if you feel satisfied. Ask for a chance to use the priesthood. Use it, bless the lives of others. And remember, man can only run so much. The Lord requires no more than the rhythm you can bear.

the peoplel of sweden gave the lord a 3 year chance

we know the church did nothign for them, no answers, nothing

all it did was send a booklet to leaders on how to deal with troublemakers and peopel questioning

it said things like, "give the lord a chance and read the book of mormon for 2 weeks"

bro. we make very strong claims. we claim to have a living prophet. an oracle. seers and revelators

and all we get is a few web sites that arent even official

give me a break
funny thing is (as this was explained many months ago).
i left interest in the church, and found this new compassionate loving jesus, who offers salvation to all,
and doesnt want our money, he wants our heart
im sad that im stuck in a rut that im not giving him a chance.
i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time

[francisco.colaco]

«DNA research in 2005 confirmed Fanny Alger’s son Orrison Smith is not the son of Joseph Smith, Jr.». From FairWiki.

I guess I would sing now «I Guess the Lady is a Tramp». (I love swing jazz)

Maybe he just fathered her son like... Joseph fathered Jesus!?

[francisco.colaco]

Aussie,

You realize you have a severe problem with pride, don't you? Please do not attack me when answering. I have not questioned your intelligence, and told what I felt like telling in meekness. You have done it at the least thrice now to me.

If you are going to answer the way you are answering, please do not bother yourself to answer this message. I will not be in conversation with people that presume they are superior to me. Or inferior. I only talk with my equals. Even in Church.

Good luck finding yourself. I have been there and I assure you it is not pretty.

[BroJones]

Good post at this web site on it.

http://mormanity.blogspot.com.au/2013/0 ... n.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


...

From that excellent discussion there:

Some Thoughts for Those Struggling with Doubt
Regardless of how Hans Mattson and other Saints may have been blindsided by some of the controversies of our past, including polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, or by challenges to our scriptures, such as attacks on the Book of Abraham, there are some things I'd like to say to them and to any of you struggling with related doubts.

First, know that you are not alone in your concerns. There are challenges to our faith and misconceptions that many of us had for years that need correction, and sometimes this updating can be painful. Some simple assumptions that seemed OK in the past are not accurate and not even doctrinal, such as the common old assumption that the Book of Mormon describes all the ancient origins of all Native Americans, or the idea that the limitation on the priesthood for many (but not all) blacks must have been a doctrinal matter based on some official revelation (there is no evidence of such a revelation being given).

Second, know that there are some helpful answers and new perspectives that can strengthen your faith as your grapple with these challenges. Resources such as FAIRLDS.org, the Maxwell Institute, the Mormon Interpreter, and BlackLDS.org can supplement the vast resources at LDS.org and help clarify some of the issues. None of that is going to make the controversy of polygamy disappear, but you can see that many faithful LDS people have dealt with these issues in various ways and found their faith still intact. I take on some of the controversies also in my LDSFAQ area.

Third, in weighing Mormonism, don't just add the controversies of history to the balance. There growing evidences for the Book of Mormon need to be considered. The big picture of the broad answers that the revelations of the Restoration provide need to be considered, including their marvelous fit into the ancient world, even down to details such as modern discoveries on ancient covenant patterns which we find beautifully present in the Book of Mormon and the restored LDS Temple. I discuss my journey in some of these areas on my LDSFAQ pages such as my pages on the Book of Abraham, my pages on Book of Mormon Evidences, and on my Mormanity blog.

There is room for doubt and a need for all of us to grapple with doubt. But know that there is still plenty of room for faith and plenty of room for rejoicing in the majesty of the Restored Gospel, including some remarkable evidences for the Restoration that the Lord has allowed to come our way. There is much to weigh and many perhaps overlooked or not yet noticed treasures that can swing the balance to the side of strengthened, not shattered faith.

To Hans and all others in the process of weighing Mormonism, I would encourage you to step back and see the bigger picture and then fairly consider the many positives at the same time as we update our perspectives on the trouble spots. While what really happened in history is rarely clear and easily misjudged, we can more easily judge what happens in our lives as we live the Gospel and experiment with the Word. There is a power, joy, and indeed, even intellectual fulfillment that comes with steady service and study, even after facing some of the disappointments that come when some unfounded assumptions we long held require correction.

Newly discovered evidences in favor of the Book of Mormon include the discovery of Equus (horse) bones in North America (by myself and colleagues) which date to the period of interest -- since the last ice age and before the arrival of Columbus and the Conquistadores.

[keep the faith]

Aussie OI,

Have questions. I had them, about every aspect of mormonism you could have dream about, and some that you could not know. They were resolved, one by one.


ok then

please answer these 2

how did you resolve joseph smith secretly marrying a 14 year old housemaid, and having sex with her?
I have shown on the church's own web site, familysearch. there she is. Fanny Alger. 14

After that, how do you resolve him doing that a year before Elijah came to return the sealing power?

With all respects "I prayed about it, is not an acceptable answer

Also, less critical, but important, Why do you think a god demands fidelity from women, but not men?

A few questions are left,


the church historian. a GA, armed to the teeth with the exact, EXACT questions he KNEW were going to be asked, fluffd around them, didn't answer them, and then disappeared

but hey, if the main bulk was resolved, the rest will be eventually.

there are more?
note, this Sweden thing was 3 years ago
(To be precise, only one question remains, but Bob Henstra might have indirectly responded to it without even knowing). The rest, from the hemispheric model to evolution, were resolved.

and so say all of us right?
resolved.
yeah, okay

I am pleased to fool people, making them think I am more intelligent and versed than I am. I actually was considering to be a jesuit priest, when the missionaries caught up with me. I am quite versed in philosophy and science, even being a mere engineer. I am not omniscient and require the help of others to form my own opinion (thanks, FARMS and Bob!).

good for you. irrelevant

That, Aussie, is the key: let others help you, let the Lord help. Loose yourself and lose yourself with no pressure, just help others with you being present and pray for opportunities to serve. (Do not forget your home teaching! )

seriously, this is just soporific dribble
im sorry
home teaching?
thats what brings the lord to my life?
thats the high point of LDS service?>
and who do you suppose wants to hear me and my doubting bro?

Aussie, believe me when I tell you that leaving the Church is solution to no problems. You will find it for yourself, with the attached frustration, as I have, if you do not believe me. People like you and me and David Cowdery eventually end up coming back, recognizing the time was lost.

There is a key to really find the truth: give the Lord a chance. A two weeks chance, extendable only if you feel satisfied. Ask for a chance to use the priesthood. Use it, bless the lives of others. And remember, man can only run so much. The Lord requires no more than the rhythm you can bear.

the peoplel of sweden gave the lord a 3 year chance

we know the church did nothign for them, no answers, nothing

all it did was send a booklet to leaders on how to deal with troublemakers and peopel questioning

it said things like, "give the lord a chance and read the book of mormon for 2 weeks"

bro. we make very strong claims. we claim to have a living prophet. an oracle. seers and revelators

and all we get is a few web sites that arent even official

give me a break
funny thing is (as this was explained many months ago).
i left interest in the church, and found this new compassionate loving jesus, who offers salvation to all,
and doesnt want our money, he wants our heart
im sad that im stuck in a rut that im not giving him a chance.
i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time

Aussie it appears from your answers that you have already given up on the church and its leaders and are now just intent on hammering them for what you continue to see as perceived injustices. I would sincerely like to ask you a question. You say that you left interest in the church but found Jesus in the process. Do you feel that Jesus sanctions your continued bitterness and resentment directed at the church and many of its past and present leaders? The Jesus I am acquainted with asks me to give up any ill feelings and freely forgive all who might have trespassed against me. I find in my life that the spirit is repelled by any acts or thoughts of ill will or bitterness or an unwillingness to forgive others.

You continue to lash out at Joseph and the church restored through him yet say you have developed a stronger relationship with The Lord in the process. Something here just does not add up. To me it is somewhat like those who stand outside the temple grounds shouting all types of insults at those who enter its doors telling them they are going to hell while they themselves proclaim that they have been saved and are true disciples of Jesus. There is a disconnect there. Perhaps it is you who needs to examine your own heart and see which type of spirit now occupies its inner recesses. I recommend a Priesthood blessing for you to remove any impurities that may now have taken hold in your soul. Please know I do so in concern and care for your well being. Satan desires to sift you and there is a battle for your soul going on. Priesthood power is stronger than any false spirits that seek for your spiritual destruction.

[wot]

Much is true.much is true

much is true.

I just need you to understand what role HeartSell (tm) has and the impact of it when people reflect on just what they 'felt'

But isn't that what you're doing too? Without actually knowing the truth of what happened you read a blurb of text and it gives you the willies. Seems like a purely emotional reaction to me.

[jo1952]

Aussie OI,

Have questions. I had them, about every aspect of mormonism you could have dream about, and some that you could not know. They were resolved, one by one.


ok then

please answer these 2

how did you resolve joseph smith secretly marrying a 14 year old housemaid, and having sex with her?
I have shown on the church's own web site, familysearch. there she is. Fanny Alger. 14

After that, how do you resolve him doing that a year before Elijah came to return the sealing power?

With all respects "I prayed about it, is not an acceptable answer

Also, less critical, but important, Why do you think a god demands fidelity from women, but not men?

A few questions are left,


the church historian. a GA, armed to the teeth with the exact, EXACT questions he KNEW were going to be asked, fluffd around them, didn't answer them, and then disappeared

but hey, if the main bulk was resolved, the rest will be eventually.

there are more?
note, this Sweden thing was 3 years ago
(To be precise, only one question remains, but Bob Henstra might have indirectly responded to it without even knowing). The rest, from the hemispheric model to evolution, were resolved.

and so say all of us right?
resolved.
yeah, okay

I am pleased to fool people, making them think I am more intelligent and versed than I am. I actually was considering to be a jesuit priest, when the missionaries caught up with me. I am quite versed in philosophy and science, even being a mere engineer. I am not omniscient and require the help of others to form my own opinion (thanks, FARMS and Bob!).

good for you. irrelevant

That, Aussie, is the key: let others help you, let the Lord help. Loose yourself and lose yourself with no pressure, just help others with you being present and pray for opportunities to serve. (Do not forget your home teaching! )

seriously, this is just soporific dribble
im sorry
home teaching?
thats what brings the lord to my life?
thats the high point of LDS service?>
and who do you suppose wants to hear me and my doubting bro?

Aussie, believe me when I tell you that leaving the Church is solution to no problems. You will find it for yourself, with the attached frustration, as I have, if you do not believe me. People like you and me and David Cowdery eventually end up coming back, recognizing the time was lost.

There is a key to really find the truth: give the Lord a chance. A two weeks chance, extendable only if you feel satisfied. Ask for a chance to use the priesthood. Use it, bless the lives of others. And remember, man can only run so much. The Lord requires no more than the rhythm you can bear.

the peoplel of sweden gave the lord a 3 year chance

we know the church did nothign for them, no answers, nothing

all it did was send a booklet to leaders on how to deal with troublemakers and peopel questioning

it said things like, "give the lord a chance and read the book of mormon for 2 weeks"

bro. we make very strong claims. we claim to have a living prophet. an oracle. seers and revelators

and all we get is a few web sites that arent even official

give me a break
funny thing is (as this was explained many months ago).
i left interest in the church, and found this new compassionate loving jesus, who offers salvation to all,
and doesnt want our money, he wants our heart
im sad that im stuck in a rut that im not giving him a chance.
i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time

I don't doubt for a moment that all of the learning taking place inside of your heart and your mind as you participate on the various websites is not only helping your personal progression; but it is also preparing you to continue to serve God's purposes. Your faith in God is outstanding. You are not allowing yourself to be deceived by man; you are discerning what is of God vs what man claims is of God but is really of man. You are distinguishing what living under the law is. It is not easy to make the transition of getting out from living under law. It effects everything in our life. We give up our life in order to find it. I see you as being here:

Luke 14:26-27

26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

[ajax]

Hugh Nibley, in one of his books, (I think The World and the Prophets), discussed all the rumors that sprung up surrounding Jesus and his family. Mary was rumored to be a whore; Jesus a bastard child; Jesus a soothsayer and magician etc. Even while he ministered, he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard.

And these are quite logical, I mean a virgin birth? Really?

However, I have pinned my reliance on feelings and light I receive when studying scripture. They feel right. They taste good. I feel improved by reading them and striving to apply them.

The problem is the Church™ has built up images and a narrative of the infallible prophets, who were always doing the Lord’s will, and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify behavior or teachings.

I mean, look at the cover of the Joseph Smith manual used in Priesthood/RS. If that isn’t a heartsell depiction, I don’t know what is. I remember my dad’s reaction when he first saw it, “I hate that”.

I think Joseph himself tried to disabuse others of the idea of putting too much trust in him, but history marches on, and with the death of the Prophet, the impeccable narratives flourished.

This continues to this day. Monson is nearly perfect. Endless stories of service, widows, medallions, celebratory birthday parties… There is not a chink in the armor.

I for one, am grateful to know that Joseph screwed up, maybe even majorly at times, and that despite that, God was still able to work though him. It gives me hope.


What I find has freed me, is the casting off of tradition (of our fathers, including church fathers) from the gospel, and most of what we do in the church today is tradition. I no longer take tradition seriously. That can be hard to do because of decades of mental programming and the fear or man (what others may think).

Accepting error for what it is, the human condition.

And continue striving to believe and put my faith on this Jesus of Nazareth, of which I believe the Bible and Book of Mormon testify.


I'm not sure what I said above has to do with Sweden or church history, except that being more honest, admitting mistakes, even saying "I don't know", is far better and acceptable than "there is nothing to see here, move along" or "don't worry about it, just pray".

[jbalm]

Newly discovered evidences in favor of the Book of Mormon include the discovery of Equus (horse) bones in North America (by myself and colleagues) which date to the period of interest -- since the last ice age and before the arrival of Columbus and the Conquistadores.

Where can I read about this?

[jo1952]

Hugh Nibley, in one of his books, (I think The World and the Prophets), discussed all the rumors that sprung up surrounding Jesus and his family. Mary was rumored to be a whore; Jesus a bastard child; Jesus a soothsayer and magician etc. Even while he ministered, he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard.

And these are quite logical, I mean a virgin birth? Really?

However, I have pinned my reliance on feelings and light I receive when studying scripture. They feel right. They taste good. I feel improved by reading them and striving to apply them.

The problem is the Church™ has built up images and a narrative of the infallible prophets, who were always doing the Lord’s will, and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify behavior or teachings.

I mean, look at the cover of the Joseph Smith manual used in Priesthood/RS. If that isn’t a heartsell depiction, I don’t know what is. I remember my dad’s reaction when he first saw it, “I hate that”.

I think Joseph himself tried to disabuse others of the idea of putting too much trust in him, but history marches on, and with the death of the Prophet, the impeccable narratives flourished.

This continues to this day. Monson is nearly perfect. Endless stories of service, widows, medallions, celebratory birthday parties… There is not a chink in the armor.

I for one, am grateful to know that Joseph screwed up, maybe even majorly at times, and that despite that, God was still able to work though him. It gives me hope.


What I find has freed me, is the casting off of tradition (of our fathers, including church fathers) from the gospel, and most of what we do in the church today is tradition. I no longer take tradition seriously. That can be hard to do because of decades of mental programming and the fear or man (what others may think).

Accepting error from what it is, the human condition.

And continue striving to believe and put my faith on this Jesus of Nazareth, of which I believe the Bible and Book of Mormon testify.


I'm not sure what I said above has to do with Sweden or church history, except that being more honest, admitting mistakes, even saying "I don't know", is far better and acceptable than "there is nothing to see here, move along" or "don't worry about it, just pray".

Beautiful!

[keep the faith]

Hugh Nibley, in one of his books, (I think The World and the Prophets), discussed all the rumors that sprung up surrounding Jesus and his family. Mary was rumored to be a whore; Jesus a bastard child; Jesus a soothsayer and magician etc. Even while he ministered, he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard.

And these are quite logical, I mean a virgin birth? Really?

However, I have pinned my reliance on feelings and light I receive when studying scripture. They feel right. They taste good. I feel improved by reading them and striving to apply them.

The problem is the Church™ has built up images and a narrative of the infallible prophets, who were always doing the Lord’s will, and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify behavior or teachings.

I mean, look at the cover of the Joseph Smith manual used in Priesthood/RS. If that isn’t a heartsell depiction, I don’t know what is. I remember my dad’s reaction when he first saw it, “I hate that”.

I think Joseph himself tried to disabuse others of the idea of putting too much trust in him, but history marches on, and with the death of the Prophet, the impeccable narratives flourished.

This continues to this day. Monson is nearly perfect. Endless stories of service, widows, medallions, celebratory birthday parties… There is not a chink in the armor.

I for one, am grateful to know that Joseph screwed up, maybe even majorly at times, and that despite that, God was still able to work though him. It gives me hope.


What I find has freed me, is the casting off of tradition (of our fathers, including church fathers) from the gospel, and most of what we do in the church today is tradition. I no longer take tradition seriously. That can be hard to do because of decades of mental programming and the fear or man (what others may think).

Accepting error for what it is, the human condition.

And continue striving to believe and put my faith on this Jesus of Nazareth, of which I believe the Bible and Book of Mormon testify.


I'm not sure what I said above has to do with Sweden or church history, except that being more honest, admitting mistakes, even saying "I don't know", is far better and acceptable than "there is nothing to see here, move along" or "don't worry about it, just pray".

Since you bring up Hugh Nibley I would like to post something from his son in law Boyd Petersen that he gave in tribute to Bro Nibley after he passed. He was a staunch defender of Joseph and Brigham and the rest of the Prophets in this dispensation. He never dragged their names through the proverbial mud as I have seen so many do on various internet blogs and postings nor did he try to emphasize all the human frailties they may have exhibited in their lives. Instead he tried to be always complementary of their accomplishments and emphasize the inspiring good in them. I often wonder why people need to look for the faults of others and focus on those faults almost to the exclusion of any good that has come from them. Perhaps it is so they can make themselves feel better aboout their own shortcomings. Nonetheless I don't see the value in always searching for faults rather than trying to first concentrating on the positives in others. This should particularly include the Prophets of this dispensation. Joseph was a very forgiving and compassionate man. Perhaps that is what should be concentrating on rather than the thousands of rumors and innuendos associated with smearing his good name.

Bro. Petersen:

"There are several examples I could cite where Hugh disagreed with Church policy. But when he could not argue forcefully for the Church, he kept his mouth shut. During the debate over blacks and the priesthood, Hugh evidently disagreed with the policy. Nevertheless, he never voiced those beliefs until after the priesthood ban was lifted.12 I once asked him about something that might be seen as heretical today but which was not in the nineteenth century, and he responded, “I never think about that.” Then he paused and restated, “Well, I think about it, but I never talk about it.” This may seem cowardly to some, but clearly Hugh was able to do more for the Church by remaining loyal and quiet; he would have lost that ability had he come out in open opposition to the Church’s position."



"The three most important things Hugh Nibley taught me are things he taught everyone else: To proclaim peace, to consecrate everything we have to the building up of Zion, and to remember that there are only two things we can be good at; things the angels envy us for: our ability to forgive and to repent. Hugh lived these principles with his life; he not only became an outspoken advocate for peace, he lived peacefully among his neighbors and befriended people he disagreed with. He lived in a small house, with few possessions, dedicating his resources to the Lord. And he was, to the very end, tirelessly working at forgiving and repenting. What was left in that hospital bed in the weeks prior to his death was nothing but love. When one visitor asked him a probing question about the definition of “love,” Hugh pointed to Phyllis, who had consecrated so much of her life to her husband’s work and who now waited on his every need, and he simply said, “there she is.”

[ajax]

Hugh Nibley, in one of his books, (I think The World and the Prophets), discussed all the rumors that sprung up surrounding Jesus and his family. Mary was rumored to be a whore; Jesus a bastard child; Jesus a soothsayer and magician etc. Even while he ministered, he was accused of being a glutton and drunkard.

And these are quite logical, I mean a virgin birth? Really?

However, I have pinned my reliance on feelings and light I receive when studying scripture. They feel right. They taste good. I feel improved by reading them and striving to apply them.

The problem is the Church™ has built up images and a narrative of the infallible prophets, who were always doing the Lord’s will, and apply all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify behavior or teachings.

I mean, look at the cover of the Joseph Smith manual used in Priesthood/RS. If that isn’t a heartsell depiction, I don’t know what is. I remember my dad’s reaction when he first saw it, “I hate that”.

I think Joseph himself tried to disabuse others of the idea of putting too much trust in him, but history marches on, and with the death of the Prophet, the impeccable narratives flourished.

This continues to this day. Monson is nearly perfect. Endless stories of service, widows, medallions, celebratory birthday parties… There is not a chink in the armor.

I for one, am grateful to know that Joseph screwed up, maybe even majorly at times, and that despite that, God was still able to work though him. It gives me hope.


What I find has freed me, is the casting off of tradition (of our fathers, including church fathers) from the gospel, and most of what we do in the church today is tradition. I no longer take tradition seriously. That can be hard to do because of decades of mental programming and the fear or man (what others may think).

Accepting error for what it is, the human condition.

And continue striving to believe and put my faith on this Jesus of Nazareth, of which I believe the Bible and Book of Mormon testify.


I'm not sure what I said above has to do with Sweden or church history, except that being more honest, admitting mistakes, even saying "I don't know", is far better and acceptable than "there is nothing to see here, move along" or "don't worry about it, just pray".

Since you bring up Hugh Nibley I would like to post something from his son in law Boyd Petersen that he gave in tribute to Bro Nibley after he passed. He was a staunch defender of Joseph and Brigham and the rest of the Prophets in this dispensation. He never dragged their names through the proverbial mud as I have seen so many do on various internet blogs and postings nor did he try to emphasize all the human frailties they may have exhibited in their lives. Instead he tried to be always complementary of their accomplishments and emphasize the inspiring good in them. I often wonder why people need to look for the faults of others and focus on those faults almost to the exclusion of any good that has come from them. Perhaps it is so they can make themselves feel better aboout their own shortcomings. Nonetheless I don't see the value in always searching for faults rather than trying to first concentrating on the positives in others. This should particularly include the Prophets of this dispensation. Joseph was a very forgiving and compassionate man. Perhaps that is what should be concentrating on rather than the thousands of rumors and innuendos associated with smearing his good name.

I largely agree with the Nibley approach. But history is google, and the church has to deal with the impeccability model it has set up over the years. "Swept under the rug" responses are no longer going to fly. These issues need to be dealt with honestly and frankly.

Our founding prophet stated,

“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft. …

“… the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same."

-Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, pp. 53–54

[AussieOi]

Aussie,

You realize you have a severe problem with pride, don't you? Please do not attack me when answering. I have not questioned your intelligence, and told what I felt like telling in meekness. You have done it at the least thrice now to me.

If you are going to answer the way you are answering, please do not bother yourself to answer this message. I will not be in conversation with people that presume they are superior to me. Or inferior. I only talk with my equals. Even in Church.

Good luck finding yourself. I have been there and I assure you it is not pretty.

Yeah, I figured as much.
Typical response.
Reigns offense
Plays victim.
Dodges question
Runs away
Be a man Frances, not an unpaid (?) Apologist for the church.
2 questions

I thought you covenanted to stand as a witness at all times in all places?

[brlenox]

i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time[/color]

Well sadly - you've come to the right place.

[AussieOi]

KTF, I am sure you are sincere.
but can you not recognize what you just did?
Your post was out of the "leading a cult for dummies" handbook.

that is, no real answers and when forced to answer, it's all empty rhetoric, no substance.

There is nothing in your post but laying on guilt and dodging responsibility.

you say I am possessed with a demon, and only more LDS involvement will save me.

yeah, thanks.

another one dodges the questions

Aussie OI,

Have questions. I had them, about every aspect of mormonism you could have dream about, and some that you could not know. They were resolved, one by one.


ok then

please answer these 2

how did you resolve joseph smith secretly marrying a 14 year old housemaid, and having sex with her?
I have shown on the church's own web site, familysearch. there she is. Fanny Alger. 14

After that, how do you resolve him doing that a year before Elijah came to return the sealing power?

With all respects "I prayed about it, is not an acceptable answer

Also, less critical, but important, Why do you think a god demands fidelity from women, but not men?

A few questions are left,


the church historian. a GA, armed to the teeth with the exact, EXACT questions he KNEW were going to be asked, fluffd around them, didn't answer them, and then disappeared

but hey, if the main bulk was resolved, the rest will be eventually.

there are more?
note, this Sweden thing was 3 years ago
(To be precise, only one question remains, but Bob Henstra might have indirectly responded to it without even knowing). The rest, from the hemispheric model to evolution, were resolved.

and so say all of us right?
resolved.
yeah, okay

I am pleased to fool people, making them think I am more intelligent and versed than I am. I actually was considering to be a jesuit priest, when the missionaries caught up with me. I am quite versed in philosophy and science, even being a mere engineer. I am not omniscient and require the help of others to form my own opinion (thanks, FARMS and Bob!).

good for you. irrelevant

That, Aussie, is the key: let others help you, let the Lord help. Loose yourself and lose yourself with no pressure, just help others with you being present and pray for opportunities to serve. (Do not forget your home teaching! )

seriously, this is just soporific dribble
im sorry
home teaching?
thats what brings the lord to my life?
thats the high point of LDS service?>
and who do you suppose wants to hear me and my doubting bro?

Aussie, believe me when I tell you that leaving the Church is solution to no problems. You will find it for yourself, with the attached frustration, as I have, if you do not believe me. People like you and me and David Cowdery eventually end up coming back, recognizing the time was lost.

There is a key to really find the truth: give the Lord a chance. A two weeks chance, extendable only if you feel satisfied. Ask for a chance to use the priesthood. Use it, bless the lives of others. And remember, man can only run so much. The Lord requires no more than the rhythm you can bear.

the peoplel of sweden gave the lord a 3 year chance

we know the church did nothign for them, no answers, nothing

all it did was send a booklet to leaders on how to deal with troublemakers and peopel questioning

it said things like, "give the lord a chance and read the book of mormon for 2 weeks"

bro. we make very strong claims. we claim to have a living prophet. an oracle. seers and revelators

and all we get is a few web sites that arent even official

give me a break
funny thing is (as this was explained many months ago).
i left interest in the church, and found this new compassionate loving jesus, who offers salvation to all,
and doesnt want our money, he wants our heart
im sad that im stuck in a rut that im not giving him a chance.
i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time

Aussie it appears from your answers that you have already given up on the church and its leaders and are now just intent on hammering them for what you continue to see as perceived injustices. I would sincerely like to ask you a question. You say that you left interest in the church but found Jesus in the process. Do you feel that Jesus sanctions your continued bitterness and resentment directed at the church and many of its past and present leaders? The Jesus I am acquainted with asks me to give up any ill feelings and freely forgive all who might have trespassed against me. I find in my life that the spirit is repelled by any acts or thoughts of ill will or bitterness or an unwillingness to forgive others.

You continue to lash out at Joseph and the church restored through him yet say you have developed a stronger relationship with The Lord in the process. Something here just does not add up. To me it is somewhat like those who stand outside the temple grounds shouting all types of insults at those who enter its doors telling them they are going to hell while they themselves proclaim that they have been saved and are true disciples of Jesus. There is a disconnect there. Perhaps it is you who needs to examine your own heart and see which type of spirit now occupies its inner recesses. I recommend a Priesthood blessing for you to remove any impurities that may now have taken hold in your soul. Please know I do so in concern and care for your well being. Satan desires to sift you and there is a battle for your soul going on. Priesthood power is stronger than any false spirits that seek for your spiritual destruction.

[AussieOi]

i need to deprogram the LDS overlay
it will come
just needs time[/color]

Well sadly - you've come to the right place.

Yes, which is why I am still here.

A few fellow crackpots like me, on their road to Damascus or just off it, with a few self righteous know it alls pontificating at us with wagging fingers.

they don't like it how we can talk About finding Jesus by stepping away from an earthly institution.