LDS Freedom Forum

kidsmoke wrote:At the time of my mission there was a standard set of discussions with the doctrine that was to be taught, in order, by the spirit. That's changed and there is a different book / guide used now. Today it might not be as carefully scripted a process as it was 20 years ago? (2nd discussion was invitation to baptism for example, not sure if that's the same today).

Just to address this part of your post - there is no standard set of discussions anymore; no scripts; no invitation to baptism during the 2nd meeting (unless the missionaries feel prompted to ask for "that" investigator), etc... It's "suppose" to be done much like the "new" way of teaching the youth Sunday School lessons - a few guidelines, but teach by the Spirit and teach the information in whatever order that particular investigator needs (again, via the Holy Ghost). I say "new" way, but shouldn't all lessons - missionary and otherwise - have been taught this way all along? Anyway, just wanted to clarify that; carry on...

kidsmoke wrote:

keep the faith wrote:

kidsmoke wrote:I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

Kidsmoke can I make a suggestion that might be helpful. Since Joseph walked the earth there have been thousands upon thousands of attempts to paint the restoration of the Gospel through this young man as pure bunk. People have gone to incredible lengths to discredit Joseph every which way but loose. Joseph himself was amazed at the lengths people would go to persecute him and paint him in a negative light. Yet his testimony resounds in the hearts of millions of faithful Saints who have seen his fruits and bask in the love of a personal God as a result of the efforts of this young farm boy.

Why would there be anything wrong with the church focusing on the positives of this amazing young man who was foreordained to this great work and not dwell on every character flaw or mistake that Joseph may have made in his mortal existence. Heavens the naysayers slandering of the Prophet over the past decades is enough and to spare for anyone to stomach.

I, like Brigham Young feel like singing hallelujah when I think of the name Joseph Smith and contemplate all that he did to further the great work of The Lord in these latter days. His accomplishments so far outweigh any frailties of the flesh he displayed. To me it isnt even worth the debate.

As for some of your concerns there are 2 sides to every story. The anti's will present a very one sided argument that often times is extremely dishonest in nature and far from contextual. Some here dislike FAIR but they at least try to give some balance and context to the arguments make against the church and the Prophet of the restoration. Here is just one as it relates to the first vision. Perhaps this might help balance the negative a bit.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith's ... n/Accounts" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just going to focus on the "why would there be anything wrong with the church focusing on the positives..." bit.

Because it's dishonest.

This is simple stuff folks. No need to make it complicated.

Help me understand exactly what is dishonest about the first vision account used by missionaries when they teach investigators Kidsmoke. I sent you the link from FAIR explaining the different versions of Josephs vision. This can also be applied to the translation process of the Book of Mormon as well. FAIR has a link explaining that as well. Joseph either had the vision or he lied. He either translated the Book of Mormon from sacred writings given him by an angel or he lied. Those are the simple facts involved here. Any investigator of the church is presented those facts and it is up to them to determine by the spirit if Joseph was who he claimed and if the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness was restored through him. I see no deception on the part of the church in presenting that narrative to those investigating the church. Please explain your reasons to me for saying the church is lying about these events.

Dr. Jones,

I have left CERN at 1996. I was then working at the instrumentation of LHC (the preliminary prototypes). A couple of years later I had disconnected myself from any physics research activities to persue other endeavours. I do not know Mr. Francesco Celani, but have heard of him. He did build the cold fusion cell, did he not?

kidsmoke wrote:I keep seeing this point of argument that "it's the members responsibility" to study history coupled with statements like "I've always known about polygamy" or "I studied and I knew about the hat and rock translation."

This is baffling to me. How many missionaries does the church have out right now? During my mission I think it was 45K. 45K kids sent out to deliberately not teach the FACTS about the first vision or give an accurate description of how the BOM was translated, etc.

How is that not incredibly dishonest?

Some of the people I taught were baptized within a span of 2 weeks. The burden now lies on the new convert to get busy studying the history so they can uncover the various significant facts that were left out.

Honesty is the best policy - a sign that hung in our kitchen growing up.

Understanding the effect of flipping a light switch doesn't require a discourse on electromagnetic theory with complicated math. The purpose of missionaries is to get people to read and pray. Going into complicated and controversial history does not serve this purpose. To people who actually have a testimony, none of this would matter. I don't know all of this history even after reading countless volumes about it. If someone were to pop up with a supposed polaroid of JS consummating his marriage with a 9-year-old, and all the 'experts' agreed it was real, it would have zero impact on my testimony. No matter what anybody says, they cannot take away the miracle I witnessed in response to my prayers, or the numerous miracles since then, and this is the bottom line.

Obviously these brothers and sisters haven't had such a personal witness, or they've rationalized it away, whatever the case may be, I feel sad for them. In 2 Nephi 30-32 the people started whining about "what next" after the spiritual high of baptism wore off. Pray, receive guidance, endure to the end. It's simplistically complicated. The church harps incessantly on the small simple issues because that's truly what matters, the whole point of it all is to be receptive of the spirit. But regardless of the "rules" if growing spiritually isn't an active pursuit, it aint gonna happen no matter how many activities you attend. The missionaries are very flexible in what they talk about, can talk about pretty much anything they like.

Kidsmoke,

The process of the translation of the Book of Mormon is irrelevant. The Book of Mormon is either scripture or gibberish. For all I care, Joseph Smith could have used a telescope and looked at patterns on clouds to find the words of the translation. He could have burped the translation, after a treat of beans, for all I care. The Book of Mormon is true scripture, correctly translated, and neither you nor me can deny that fact.

So what if a seer stone was used? Mr. Smith was young, inexperienced and there is not a great deal of inspired translations on record on which we can compare Joseph's to, is there?

About polygamy: are you sure short tempered Emma would have not flatten Joseph's face with a frying pan if he even dreamed on doing it? Joseph Smith was far from perfect, and so are we, but he was chosen, by reasons only the Lord knows, to bring forth the Book of Mormon. By which means seems to me a sterile discussion. To an engineer and a manager like I am, by professional deformation any mouse trap is acceptable if it traps mouses.

Hi ktf.
can I ask.
a lot of our beliefs and doctrine evolved, over 12 years.
where do you base your view of what JS intention was "from the beginning"

Did he even know what was coming in 1830?

**sec101 and 105 came much later

keep the faith wrote:

AussieOi wrote:Or, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

Perhaps I can express it more clearly this way Aussie. From the beginnings of the restoration Josephs greatest goal was to unite the Saints in righteousness and sanctification and prepare them for the redemption of Zion. However as Section 101 and 105 sadly tells us the Saints became caught up in ungodly things like contention and envying and strife and covetous desires and were not united according to the laws of the celestial kingdom.

Now fast forward to today. Are we as saints any closer to this marvelous Zion? Do we access the powers of Heaven through the principles of righteousness? Are we united as a people in a consecrated spirit with the intent of building up the Kingdom of God and bringing to pass the redemption of Zion? Are we filled with charity toward all men?

If we continue to accuse and criticize and tear down fellow Saints and leadership how can we possibly expect to purify our hearts and unite in the spirit of Zion to welcome back our Lord to this earth as the great lawgiver? It just can't be done unless we show love and forgiveness towards all who may displease or offend us in any way. The Lords sheep hear his voice. It is a voice filled with charity to all and true Priesthood power through overcoming the natural man by practicing the principles of righteousness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

francisco.colaco wrote:Kidsmoke,

The process of the translation of the Book of Mormon is irrelevant. The Book of Mormon is either scripture or gibberish. For all I care, Joseph Smith could have used a telescope and looked at patterns on clouds to find the words of the translation. He could have burped the translation, after a treat of beans, for all I care. The Book of Mormon is true scripture, correctly translated, and neither you nor me can deny that fact.

So what if a seer stone was used? Mr. Smith was young, inexperienced and there is not a great deal of inspired translations on record on which we can compare Joseph's to, is there?

About polygamy: are you sure short tempered Emma would have not flatten Joseph's face with a frying pan if he even dreamed on doing it? Joseph Smith was far from perfect, and so are we, but he was chosen, by reasons only the Lord knows, to bring forth the Book of Mormon. By which means seems to me a sterile discussion. To an engineer and a manager like I am, by professional deformation any mouse trap is acceptable if it traps mouses.

When people first learn of the Church, and if they decide to join, sometimes they don't have much (if any) of a testimony. They like the feelings they have when they attend Church. They like the loving reception which most of them receive as investigators and/or newly baptized members. They are drawn to that atmosphere. They WANT to believe. They desire to believe. Yet, it can be bewildering when a convert joins. Even if they do have a testimony of the Book of Mormon, it is impossible to have a testimony of the history of the Church, or of all of the teachings of the Church; unless they have been studying and investigating for years. In fact, how often have we heard that it is okay to hang onto someone else's testimony until we have our own? And even then, members who have been life-long members may "think" they have a testimony just to find out that their faith gets shaken from any type of a negative or faith-testing life-experience. For the convert (speaking of those who were not born into the Church), often they have very little personal testimony. After they join, when confronted with all of the information which they...especially today with the Internet....will come in contact with, how can we expect them to ride out the storm of doubt and even anger when they discover that controversial information was NOT part of the discussions? All of this, and seasoned members will claim "well, they never did have a 'real' testimony anyway; because if they DID, their faith in the Church would survive".

By then, they are trapped inside of Catch 22 where questioning the leaders is frowned upon, can cause ostracization among the members, etc.

Hi johnny
Yeah. What are my fruits.
Thats the key isn't it.
sigh. I've done for 20 years. 25 even.
And I want to give more, but my tank is empty
typically I go back to church to refill my oil lamp.
but I have little edification there.
little respect for these leaders.
so I ask is Jesus bunkum too?
Hence the journey of finding the savior, the second comforter stuff.
I'm sorry, their words, deeds and conference talks just don't inspire me.
I see hypocrisy, polished talks, and HeartSell (tm) has made me sick inside.
its not fun.
I'm sad, they are people I don't trust or like anymore.
I'm happy, I feel I can find Christ, a better savior, for me.
I just need that cognitive kick in to knock.
I gave everything. So much. I am empty.
I know I will dive in again with Jesus.
but I'm not even trying.
I can't even talk here bout exhaustion.
we are spread so thin here.
anyone half talented has multiple callings.
wards and stakes are spread so thin.

JohnnyL wrote:

AussieOi wrote: In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

I can't direct them to apologetics that are half baked at best and conveniently deniable.

Any thoughts?

What are your fruits? How have the gospel and church helped you?
What instances of p, s, and r have you experienced, such as gaining from pondering their conference talks?
Apologetics? Where are yours? What research have you done for it?

I understand some, and I believe the church should be doing much more in some ways, and seems pretty blind in some ways.
It would be nice, for example, to have a decent "official" apologetics website would be nice. Have you thought, though, that the unofficial ones are probably much better than what the church could hire to get done?

I have a feeling, and have experienced, a disconnect between upper and lower leaders. It's hard to pass the vision down, so to say. Remember the experience of Elder Rasband (president of the 70 at the time?) trying to figure out where a missionary would be called to, versus Elder Eyring, whom he was with?
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... y?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Now imagine that difference going down, down, down... a seventy, an area authority, a temple/ mission president, stake president, counselor, patriarch, bishops, etc., members--all over the world.
It's not going to work, especially at this time when the wheat and the tares are growing thicker and higher, and it's becoming more and more apparent that all that wheat was really half tares...

So yes, it's time to do what many pioneers did--buckle up and get to it, and stop relying on the church for everything, which the church has said it won't do be able to sustain, anyway.

BTW, if you want more really good hidden church history, go to boap.org and read the pioneer journals. Zera Pulsipher's (later a president of the Seventy) is a good one to start with--I guarantee you will read very interesting things you've never heard of in a church class, and some that you have. As you read, ask yourself how many saints nowadays could match that faith and work? Where are we? Where am I? It sure inspired me to stop complaining as much and start working more.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

I don't see this being offered to the Swedes who are having a crisis of faith.

jo1952 wrote:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

I don't see this being offered to the Swedes who are having a crisis of faith.

Are the members only supposed to afford this to our leaders? Our leaders are supposed to be serving us.

When I was checking out the church I had the missionaries over for about two years before I decided to become a member. I had accepted the Book of Mormon right after I read it but could not see the structure of the LDS church described in the Book of Mormon. To me the church was far removed from what I read in scripture. I also saw glaring holes between the Book of Mormon and what the modern prophets said. But I was told by the Spirit of God to join the church. For what reason I still do not fully know.

The questions I asked of the missionaries went right over their heads and eventually some well learned people came over to answer my questions. I wish I had recorded those conversations. I ended up teaching as much as being taught and a trip to my house for dinner and a discussion of the scriptures was seen as a joy for all involved. This is the way it is supposed to be.

I knew of most of the problems with the church before I joined. But knowing the church is run by men I expected that. I just could not see why it was that Joseph Smith was spoken so highly of. In my mind he was but a mouthpiece for God. It reminded me of Moses even in the beginning. But just as I read the Bible and learned many things about God by the writings of Moses I expected the same from Joseph Smith. I was not disappointed in that regard.

I had already a very strong witness of God and a very good connection to the Holy Spirit. Although I was promised a better connection to the Holy Ghost one never came in being baptized or receiving the priesthood. This was not a disappointment to me but it was telling. It was my first exposure to broken promises and false teachings. But again I know the church is run by men and I was not what you would call a normal convert. I found the missionaries would speak of being told things from the Spirit that to me could not be true. But I expected some level of salesmanship in the process.

Now that I have studied the history of the church and had many many revelations about the scriptures I find that the church does not represent what it is correctly but the church none the less is required for most spirits. I think that the church can still be what it is (a law based church) and still be more honest about its history. Those under the law will accept almost anything so there is no need for the leadership to fear. But like any institution of men rocking the boat is looked down upon.

I waited all night to let my lizard brain think about the last paragraph of your reply.

I truly appreciate your being here and takingbthe time to engage.

and your comments are heartfelt to me.

I guess my reply is, or thought was about your framing am attribute of JS (his forgiveness) in the context of loving the savior.

I feel you reflect much of my angst with what spiritual development and learning I am learning in the modern LDS church, with regards to who Jesus was and our motivations to follow him and HIS example.

JS was a flawed character as we mostly understand.

which comes back to what this thread is about.

last Sunday I think we sang Praise to the Man. Or was it a poor wayfaring man of grief??

Drjme can finish my sentences on who we emulate better than I

keep the faith wrote:

AussieOi wrote:

keep the faith wrote:[quote="AussieOiOr, when people aren't given answers they expect should be provided.
But we are all going in circles now

Perhaps I can express it more clearly this way Aussie. From the beginnings of the restoration Josephs greatest goal was to unite the Saints in righteousness and sanctification and prepare them for the redemption of Zion. However as Section 101 and 105 sadly tells us the Saints became caught up in ungodly things like contention and envying and strife and covetous desires and were not united according to the laws of the celestial kingdom.

Now fast forward to today. Are we as saints any closer to this marvelous Zion? Do we access the powers of Heaven through the principles of righteousness? Are we united as a people in a consecrated spirit with the intent of building up the Kingdom of God and bringing to pass the redemption of Zion? Are we filled with charity toward all men?

If we continue to accuse and criticize and tear down fellow Saints and leadership how can we possibly expect to purify our hearts and unite in the spirit of Zion to welcome back our Lord to this earth as the great lawgiver? It just can't be done unless we show love and forgiveness towards all who may displease or offend us in any way. The Lords sheep hear his voice. It is a voice filled with charity to all and true Priesthood power through overcoming the natural man by practicing the principles of righteousness.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance..

Hi there.
So ma y good points, but why the need to throw in the typical LDS guilt complex ?
Why blame members for this aparent lack of unity?

Fish, rot, head?

Another way to put it.

In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

I can't direct them to apologetics that are half baked at best and conveniently deniable.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for engaging with me Aussie. My experience with the church is that I can find anything that I desire to look for. If I want to find warts or blemishes there are literally hundreds of places I can go in order to dig up dirt on the church or its leaders. However if I want to spend my time seeking uplifting and spiritually rewarding thoughts and actions involving the church and its leadership I can also find myriads of resources and experiences to keep me busy in that endeavor.

I have listened to and read literally hundreds upon hundreds of talks and articles given by those we sustain as Prophets/Seers/Revelators over the past many years. I have felt the spirit testify to my soul on multiple occasions that these leaders are filled with a love for The Lord and desire to do his will in their stewardship responsibilities. This is what i choose to focus on. I do not expect perfection from any of them just as The Lord understands my many faults and failings and is merciful in spite of those faults.

I recently read a wonderful talk about the Prophet Josephs ability to forgive others their trespasses and extend the hand of love and friendship to all. This is something I would like to emulate in my own life. I think it is the only way to show the Savior true discipleship. My best to you in your journey back to The Lord.

http://ldsmag.com/ldsmag/lineuponline/0 ... iving.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote]

Well said, KeeptheFaith!

I have felt the spirit testify to my soul on multiple occasions that these leaders are filled with a love for The Lord and desire to do his will in their stewardship responsibilities. This is what i choose to focus on. I do not expect perfection from any of them just as The Lord understands my many faults and failings and is merciful in spite of those faults.

I recently read a wonderful talk about the Prophet Josephs ability to forgive others their trespasses and extend the hand of love and friendship to all. This is something I would like to emulate in my own life. I think it is the only way to show the Savior true discipleship. My best to you in your journey back to The Lord.

francisco.colaco wrote:Dr. Jones,

I have left CERN at 1996. I was then working at the instrumentation of LHC (the preliminary prototypes). A couple of years later I had disconnected myself from any physics research activities to persue other endeavours. I do not know Mr. Francesco Celani, but have heard of him. He did build the cold fusion cell, did he not?

He reported on a device he built which is using constantin wire (not palladium) and hydrogen gas (H2), not LiOD -- indeed not an electrolysis cell.

Numerous researchers now are reporting "anomalous heat" with non-Pons-Fleischmann-electrolytic cells, but quite divergent devices involving hydrogen typically. Interesting developments.

Jo1952,

One can have a testimony if he prays sincerely. I believe it is called «the promise». One shall find it in the verses 3 to 5 of the very last chapter of the Book of Mormon.

What good would it do having the specks of the translation of the Book of Mormon in the discussions? Would it bring people closer to Christ? Would it bring the Spirit into the discussions? As I see it, I cannot convert anyone. The Holy Spirit can. I can only present the information. People, to be converted, have to take the effort themselves. Conversion, like learning, is always a painful process. That, I believe, is part of the heavenly plan: you give something of yourself, the Lord builds with that.

Again, it is utterly irrelevant the process of translation of the Book of Mormon. It will not bring the Spirit into the discussions. It will not help people pray. In fact, it drives the Spirit away, and will keep people from praying.

As to the Internet giving all sorts of false or decontextualized information to neophites or investigators, that is why members with strong testimonies like me and a good knowledge of the Church history are there. To be precise, my experience tells me that you can take two hours to debunk all the doubts one got and the following day they will have a fresh battery to debunk. Better to debunk ONE (just for the kicks ) and then ask the person, still doubting the doubt, to pray about Joseph Smith. Pray with them, if need be, and do not worry about their doubts. Just let the Lord be in command, bring in the Spirit. And suddenly all doubts will seem meaningless.

It baffles me that members of the Church still seem unaware that the Holy Spirit is there, waiting to be used and reused. I am just a convert. The missionaries that tried to convert me were truly incapable of doing so, even being the crème de la crème, the best missionaries that I have ever seem. Therefore, the Holy Ghost had to do it, and did it. Taught me a lesson.

I just need that cognitive kick in to knock.

Do I understand you to say you have multiple 'callings'? It is possible to be overworked, you know.

According to Boyd K. Packer, the institution of the Church exists to support the Family. If you aren't able to find time to enjoy simple family life, you may want to consider asking for less demanding responsibilities at Church.

In regard to your above statement, do you find time to search the scriptures for answers to your concerns? You don't even have to use the Doctrine & Covenants or The Book of Mormon if you are feeling unsure about their authenticity.

I have found answers to every question I've taken to the Lord in the scriptures, many times in the Old Testament. I think you need what the Plains Indians refer to as a Vision Quest. You need to go somewhere in nature where you can be absolutely ALONE for a few days. Fast, pray, contemplate the Creation, read the scriptures if so inclined.

As stated in one of my favorite Indian movies, "You need to get yourself a vision!"

Aussie OI,

Maybe your faith is just tired. That happens. Sometimes, when we are overworked within the Church, the Church will seem like shackles. The truth will not set us free, in that particular case. Sometimes, we seem as a Church to forget Christ. We are, individually, imperfect. But a lot of those you know and dwell in the Church are decent and intelligent people, and would go leaps and bounds for you, You know that.

I do not think there is a bad person in you. Nor even a disbeliever. There is a tired person, which is different. In this day and age, a lot of us are being pushed to the limit, financially, emotionally and spiritually. Most of us are in a state of spiritual and emotional bankruptcy, and need some kind of restart.

Buffalo Girl suggested a way for any of us to unstress and retune ourselves to the Lord. That could work. Maybe a fishing rod or a pair of snickers will do better for any of us than all the predications and «nurturing». Anyway, pray and read the Book of Mormon for two weeks, after some physical exercise. If this seems far-fetched, and I know it does, please bear with me and perform a complete reset, spiritually speaking.

francisco.colaco wrote:Kidsmoke,

The process of the translation of the Book of Mormon is irrelevant. The Book of Mormon is either scripture or gibberish. For all I care, Joseph Smith could have used a telescope and looked at patterns on clouds to find the words of the translation. He could have burped the translation, after a treat of beans, for all I care. The Book of Mormon is true scripture, correctly translated, and neither you nor me can deny that fact.

So what if a seer stone was used? Mr. Smith was young, inexperienced and there is not a great deal of inspired translations on record on which we can compare Joseph's to, is there?

About polygamy: are you sure short tempered Emma would have not flatten Joseph's face with a frying pan if he even dreamed on doing it? Joseph Smith was far from perfect, and so are we, but he was chosen, by reasons only the Lord knows, to bring forth the Book of Mormon. By which means seems to me a sterile discussion. To an engineer and a manager like I am, by professional deformation any mouse trap is acceptable if it traps mouses.

If the process of the translation of the BOM is irrelevant then answer this. Why send brethren half way around the World to hold a special meeting to address that very question?

Kidsmoke,

Does the translation method of the Book of Mormon determine it's validity? I have spiritual confirmation of the truthfulness of the Book. That, for me, means that the mouse trap traps mouses.

As to the meeting, ask the Brethren. Not me. I will not spend much time debunking filth. Debunk just one attack to the Book of Mormon to take the investigator off guard and then invite the Spirit to do the rest of the work. I abhor answering point by point when the Lord has a more efficient method. Besides, it is not Francisco's turn to shine, it's the Holy Spirit's.

AussieOi wrote: .....I gave everything. So much. I am empty.
I know I will dive in again with Jesus......

I would like to talk to you about the spiritual walk. It is the single thing which allows us to see the world for what it is and yet grow towards Father. I see the pain in your words but I know that pain all to well myself. You see when we do start that spiritual walk we divide into two beings. One of our own members (arms legs, mind etc) being natural and the spirit which transcends the physical plane. We war with the members and in time rule over them. It was Paul who detailed this in Romans. You see we are told that we leave the natural man in the baptism water and arise a spiritual creature. That is symbolic and the process can take years. Many just stop the work and accept that they will never be a spiritual creature. You see the baptism water is what gives the Holy Spirit permission to help you walk in the spirit. It is us telling the Spirit of God that is our desire so the Spirit can start that transformation and not step on our free will. But we can run back to the natural man and stop the work of the Holy Spirit. And with many this goes back and forth for many years before any true progress is made.

But to make real progress requires a casting off of this world. This is not easy. You must dump the theories of science. You must dump the knowledge of man. You must pull out all of your attachments to this world and remove your foundations of the world. You then ask the Father to rebuild your foundations in Him. You know when you have done this when the cares and emotions you have for all of this junk in the world slips away. The spirit becomes real and this world becomes the dream. Oh we still live here in our body but the dream is but a dream and it is not our home. Our home is with the Father and we desire to leave here and return home. This is the message of the prodigal son. We leave the world behind and seek our Father. It is a scary path and you lose yourself for a moment. But the promise is true that we find ourself when we lose ourself. It is was totally a surprise for me to see how little I outwardly changed when I went through this change but the inward change was dramatic. Use your desire and emotions to cast off this world and it will serve you well.

Paul details part of this in Romans 6:2 through 8:14

francisco.colaco wrote:Jo1952,

One can have a testimony if he prays sincerely. I believe it is called «the promise». One shall find it in the verses 3 to 5 of the very last chapter of the Book of Mormon.

I have a very strong testimony of the Book of Mormon. I realize that you don't know me; but in this, you are preaching to the choir.

What good would it do having the specks of the translation of the Book of Mormon in the discussions? Would it bring people closer to Christ? Would it bring the Spirit into the discussions? As I see it, I cannot convert anyone. The Holy Spirit can. I can only present the information. People, to be converted, have to take the effort themselves. Conversion, like learning, is always a painful process. That, I believe, is part of the heavenly plan: you give something of yourself, the Lord builds with that.

Again, it is utterly irrelevant the process of translation of the Book of Mormon. It will not bring the Spirit into the discussions. It will not help people pray. In fact, it drives the Spirit away, and will keep people from praying.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit is the convincer. So, why be afraid of presenting and facing the controversies? The Holy Spirit's witness is more powerful than any words a man can say. That means that even negative words are not more powerful than the power of the Holy Spirit. This thread is not speaking only about the method used to translate the Book of Mormon. Non-disclosure of the very circumstances of the basic tenets taught in the discussions is a breach of confidence to those being taught the discussion; especially in this age of the information highway. Most converts already believe in the Father and in the Son. What the Church is trying to convert people to is a new and improved version of the Gospel; and indeed she does teach more truth than most other churches. We do a disservice to the faith they are placing in what we are teaching when we are not forthright with the very same problems which are effecting members who are life-long members or members who come from generations of membership of the Church.

Converts are given the impression that all is well; but it is not. There is controversy inside of the Church. There is great controversy outside of the Church ABOUT the Church which is effecting the inside of the Church. Most converts who go into inactivity after a short-lived period of activity still believe in Father and in the Son. When the Church loses their trust, the Church also loses her credibility. They will continue their seeking of further enlightenment elsewhere. Indeed truth IS everywhere.

As to the Internet giving all sorts of false or decontextualized information to neophites or investigators, that is why members with strong testimonies like me and a good knowledge of the Church history are there. To be precise, my experience tells me that you can take two hours to debunk all the doubts one got and the following day they will have a fresh battery to debunk. Better to debunk ONE (just for the kicks ) and then ask the person, still doubting the doubt, to pray about Joseph Smith. Pray with them, if need be, and do not worry about their doubts. Just let the Lord be in command, bring in the Spirit. And suddenly all doubts will seem meaningless.

The Internet does not hava only false or decontextualized information available. There is a mix of truth and non-truth there; just as there is truth and non-truth EVERYWHERE. It is much further reaching on the Internet due to the very nature of what the Internet is.

It baffles me that members of the Church still seem unaware that the Holy Spirit is there, waiting to be used and reused. I am just a convert. The missionaries that tried to convert me were truly incapable of doing so, even being the crème de la crème, the best missionaries that I have ever seem. Therefore, the Holy Ghost had to do it, and did it. Taught me a lesson.

It is because I am being led to more and more truth by the Holy Spirit, that I now have the spiritual eyes and ears to see and hear things I was not able to see and hear when I first joined the Church. The Church serves well in teaching living under the law; there is a great purpose in this. There is a time to put off the things we did as a child; i.e., when our spirits were immature. At some point our spirit needs to mature in order to progress. Living under the law prepares us to being able to be propelled forward beyond walking in the physical to walking in the spirit.

Nevertheless, we are all right where we need to be.

keep the faith wrote: Help me understand exactly what is dishonest about the first vision account used by missionaries when they teach investigators Kidsmoke. I sent you the link from FAIR explaining the different versions of Josephs vision. This can also be applied to the translation process of the Book of Mormon as well. FAIR has a link explaining that as well. Joseph either had the vision or he lied. He either translated the Book of Mormon from sacred writings given him by an angel or he lied. Those are the simple facts involved here. Any investigator of the church is presented those facts and it is up to them to determine by the spirit if Joseph was who he claimed and if the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness was restored through him. I see no deception on the part of the church in presenting that narrative to those investigating the church. Please explain your reasons to me for saying the church is lying about these events.

The teaching aids we used didn't depict the events in a historically accurate manner. Joseph translating with the golden plates rather than a picture of him with his face in a hat. One version of the first vision, etc.

Was the message the same? Sure, Joseph restored the gospel and translated the BOM.

Was it historically accurate? No.

buffalo_girl wrote:

I just need that cognitive kick in to knock.

Do I understand you to say you have multiple 'callings'? It is possible to be overworked, you know.

According to Boyd K. Packer, the institution of the Church exists to support the Family. If you aren't able to find time to enjoy simple family life, you may want to consider asking for less demanding responsibilities at Church.

In regard to your above statement, do you find time to search the scriptures for answers to your concerns? You don't even have to use the Doctrine & Covenants or The Book of Mormon if you are feeling unsure about their authenticity.

I have found answers to every question I've taken to the Lord in the scriptures, many times in the Old Testament. I think you need what the Plains Indians refer to as a Vision Quest. You need to go somewhere in nature where you can be absolutely ALONE for a few days. Fast, pray, contemplate the Creation, read the scriptures if so inclined.

As stated in one of my favorite Indian movies, "You need to get yourself a vision!"

I think down under they refer to that as "walkabout". I could use one...

AussieOi wrote:I waited all night to let my lizard brain think about the last paragraph of your reply.

I truly appreciate your being here and takingbthe time to engage.

and your comments are heartfelt to me.

I guess my reply is, or thought was about your framing am attribute of JS (his forgiveness) in the context of loving the savior.

I feel you reflect much of my angst with what spiritual development and learning I am learning in the modern LDS church, with regards to who Jesus was and our motivations to follow him and HIS example.

JS was a flawed character as we mostly understand.

which comes back to what this thread is about.

last Sunday I think we sang Praise to the Man. Or was it a poor wayfaring man of grief??

Drjme can finish my sentences on who we emulate better than I

Aussie I really appreciate the chance to connect with you albeit by online conversation. Even though we may be at different places in our journey I want you to know that I consider you a brother in the gospel and feel the same desire to connect with my Savior as I know you do. I have been in the church for many years now and have pretty well read about everything there is to read about all the controversies that are stirred up from time to time be they historical or doctrinal as they pertain to the church both past and present. I have always enjoyed a quote I read many years ago attributed to Joseph as he dealt with the many controversies that surrounded him at the time. He said:

"I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priest-craft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women—all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty."
History of the Church, 5:401.

Now I know that Joseph was not a perfect man and he did struggle at times with human behavior. However I have made a study of his life and struggles a lifelong pursuit and I can say with every confidense in my soul that he was a chosen servant of The Lord who was called and set apart in the pre-existence to perform the work He did. I love the Prophet and one day we will all witness his rightful place as the great Prophet of this dispensation.

Hang in there Brother and read from the Book of Mormon daily feasting upon the words of Christ. It will strengthen you in times of trial. Serve The Lord by blessing those around you in a spirit of love and peace. He will bless and strengthen you as you reach out to others. My best to you Brother Aussie.

jbalm wrote:Doesn't really answer kidsmoke's question.

Read the book of Mormon and pray about it.

Then there are no questions.

And that's the problem

Stella Solaris wrote:

kidsmoke wrote:At the time of my mission there was a standard set of discussions with the doctrine that was to be taught, in order, by the spirit. That's changed and there is a different book / guide used now. Today it might not be as carefully scripted a process as it was 20 years ago? (2nd discussion was invitation to baptism for example, not sure if that's the same today).

Just to address this part of your post - there is no standard set of discussions anymore; no scripts; no invitation to baptism during the 2nd meeting (unless the missionaries feel prompted to ask for "that" investigator), etc... It's "suppose" to be done much like the "new" way of teaching the youth Sunday School lessons - a few guidelines, but teach by the Spirit and teach the information in whatever order that particular investigator needs (again, via the Holy Ghost). I say "new" way, but shouldn't all lessons - missionary and otherwise - have been taught this way all along? Anyway, just wanted to clarify that; carry on...

I'm sure there was a response to this, I am catching up.

True about the way to deliver the key messages.

But the pressure is commit them ASAP "before Satan gets them"