The Swedish Rescue - Apostasy in Sweden LDS Church

[ajax]

Of course not, be we can help to better inform them.

[Franktalk]

Of course not, be we can help to better inform them.

The best way to inform people is to answer their questions when they come to you. That of course is what this thread is all about. I think it is common knowledge how to inform people. It is also obvious when someone is trying to hide knowledge. The leaders are not stupid but they treat the laity with no respect. They know when they don't answer questions people will find other sources to answer those questions. I guess they are willing to put up with the attrition that is a direct result.

[Frederick]

I find it interesting how the LDS church calls what is happening in Sweden an apostasy. Apostasy from what? What about the LDS church, can it ever go into apostasy? What does that term even mean?

Having legitimate questions does not equal apostasy. That is exactly how Joseph Smith started his own journey to God.

If the LDS church has a hard time giving satisfactory answers, it may be that they themselves do not have a complete understanding of our situation as a church and of our own history.

One thing I find very interesting is that the LDS church does not allow the possibility that as a people, we can dwindle in unbelief. Rarely do admit the possibility that our understanding of the gospel today is less than that of the early saints, such as those from the Kirtland era. An era in which spiritual gifts and heavenly manifestations were abundant.

We simply accept that those things were in the past and that the heavens open differently for us now. I heard a GA say almost exactly that not too long ago in general conference.

The fact is, if the heavens are closed to us, if we do not have angels that appear and minister to us, then we do not have faith and awful is our state. We are is if there had been NO redemption made for us. Moroni 7:38

We love to think we can sprout a seedling of faith and tell ourselves, it is enough, we have done it. Yet Mormon states quite differently in Moroni 7.

The heavens testify of our standing before God. They are open or they are closed. That is how we can tell if we are in apostasy or not.

[stillwater]

Frederick. Absolutely brother. It's the telestial mindset that equates "coming unto Christ" with "coming unto church." If one is of the mindset that the Church can never be led astray (whatever that means), then anyone who appears to deviate from the middle-of-the-road program must be in apostasy.

The Moroni 7, Moroni 10 approach is impossible to measure on paper, and therefore impossible to institutionalize. All Joseph could do, institutionally, is give us ordinances to lay out the path through ritual. The only sign that our form of godliness is only answered by the power of godliness when we "see the face of God, even the Father, and live" (DC 84:21-22).

If someone distances themselves from any other gospel, it's hard to consider it much of a fall.

The Swedes have legitimate questions. If all we want to do is lead them back into the church program, then maybe the Church's new series of historical essays will quiet their cognitive dissonance enough to lull them back into carnal security. However, if we're hoping for them to be led to life and salvation, then we should carefully heed Joseph's words:

Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity--thou must commune with God. How much more dignified and noble are the thoughts of God, than the vain imaginations of the human heart! None but fools will trifle with the souls of men.

Sending churchmen and historians instead of true messengers to minister to the Swedes (or any of us) is trifling with their souls.

[jo1952]

It came from here:

Ward Teaching

CONDUCTED UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF THE PRESIDING BISHOPRIC. EDITED BY LEE A. PALMER.

When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.

WHERE is the above publication found? WHAT is the publication date? WHO has access to this publication? IS this read to the general membership?

Your posted statement certainly contradicts Elder Christofferson's address, The Doctrine of Christ, from April 2012 General Conference.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... t?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As I said previously, I have been accused of teaching 'false doctrine' by reading directly from scriptures. I had the Gospel Doctrine class in near spiritual riot a few weeks ago by reading from Doctrine & Covenants 88:25-26.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

Apparently, those created in the image of God can NOT stomach the possibility that the Earth is living a higher law than they are, despite the fact that the Lord says it Himself.

My advice to anyone struggling with 'doctrinal concerns' is to move forward in regard to your own understanding of God's LAW. Support your understanding directly from Scripture withOUT your personal interpretation, and let the TRUTH speak for itself.

When others pontificate in regard to 'the order of Heaven, etc.' and you have NEVER found anything substantiating such in the Scriptures, simply say, "I've never seen that in the scriptures." But then, that does require us to KNOW what is in the Standard Works.

Not one of us can 'fix' the ignorance of another, only our own.

25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom, for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—

26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it.

Yes, the earth is abiding the law of a celestial kingdom; even though it has not yet been celestialized. IOW, it is not yet a celestial kingdom. It is fulfilling the measure of its creation which is to provide the arena wherein we can experience opposition in all things. Those who journey on the still uncelestialized earth, as well as satan and his minions, together participate in creating that opposition. Once the earth has completed fulfilling the measure of its creation, that is when it will become celestialized. The same is true about us. The earth's journey is a "type" for our own journey. What the earth experiences on its journey to becoming celestialized is a type for what we experience on our journey to becoming celestialized. The earth experiences physically what will take place spiritually. Our current world system's earth has already experienced its water baptism by way of the great flood. It will experience its baptism by fire in the end times and the earth as we know it will die and be quickened again. Its quickening will be its resurrection into a glorified celestial state of being.

[jo1952]

I find it interesting how the LDS church calls what is happening in Sweden an apostasy. Apostasy from what? What about the LDS church, can it ever go into apostasy? What does that term even mean?

Having legitimate questions does not equal apostasy. That is exactly how Joseph Smith started his own journey to God.

If the LDS church has a hard time giving satisfactory answers, it may be that they themselves do not have a complete understanding of our situation as a church and of our own history.

One thing I find very interesting is that the LDS church does not allow the possibility that as a people, we can dwindle in unbelief. Rarely do admit the possibility that our understanding of the gospel today is less than that of the early saints, such as those from the Kirtland era. An era in which spiritual gifts and heavenly manifestations were abundant.

We simply accept that those things were in the past and that the heavens open differently for us now. I heard a GA say almost exactly that not too long ago in general conference.

The fact is, if the heavens are closed to us, if we do not have angels that appear and minister to us, then we do not have faith and awful is our state. We are is if there had been NO redemption made for us. Moroni 7:38

We love to think we can sprout a seedling of faith and tell ourselves, it is enough, we have done it. Yet Mormon states quite differently in Moroni 7.

The heavens testify of our standing before God. They are open or they are closed. That is how we can tell if we are in apostasy or not.

Amen, Frederick!

Even so, the Church IS serving God's purposes. There is more and more opposition being created by the actions and choices she is making. Opposition is necessary to get the individual to the point of awareness of spiritual awakening; sifting us into a spiritual walk...nudging fence sitters to take the leap of faith, etc. So, she is doing well in this; it is just not the role she claims to be fulfilling.

[Frederick]

I find it interesting how the LDS church calls what is happening in Sweden an apostasy. Apostasy from what? What about the LDS church, can it ever go into apostasy? What does that term even mean?

Having legitimate questions does not equal apostasy. That is exactly how Joseph Smith started his own journey to God.

If the LDS church has a hard time giving satisfactory answers, it may be that they themselves do not have a complete understanding of our situation as a church and of our own history.

One thing I find very interesting is that the LDS church does not allow the possibility that as a people, we can dwindle in unbelief. Rarely do admit the possibility that our understanding of the gospel today is less than that of the early saints, such as those from the Kirtland era. An era in which spiritual gifts and heavenly manifestations were abundant.

We simply accept that those things were in the past and that the heavens open differently for us now. I heard a GA say almost exactly that not too long ago in general conference.

The fact is, if the heavens are closed to us, if we do not have angels that appear and minister to us, then we do not have faith and awful is our state. We are is if there had been NO redemption made for us. Moroni 7:38

We love to think we can sprout a seedling of faith and tell ourselves, it is enough, we have done it. Yet Mormon states quite differently in Moroni 7.

The heavens testify of our standing before God. They are open or they are closed. That is how we can tell if we are in apostasy or not.

Amen, Frederick!

Even so, the Church IS serving God's purposes. There is more and more opposition being created by the actions and choices she is making. Opposition is necessary to get the individual to the point of awareness of spiritual awakening; sifting us into a spiritual walk...nudging fence sitters to take the leap of faith, etc. So, she is doing well in this; it is just not the role she claims to be fulfilling.

Thanks Jo! You are absolutely right, the LDS church is serving God's purpose. Among the many blessings it provides, it publishes the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. It also publishes other writings of Joseph Smith, such as TPJS and the Lectures on Faith, even if many in the church tend to distance themselves from the doctrines taught therein.

Sadly, I think those in Sweden and those sent to "rescue" them, are neither one quite getting it. The gospel is not about fidelity to an organization. It is about connecting to the Savior.

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 63)

This scripture says the same thing as Moroni 7. Signs follow those that have faith. The heavens literally open the same way they did for those who wrote the Book of Mormon. The signs that Mormon said we should see should be angels appearing and ministering to men, and in this scripture, mighty works and miracles. Biblical style miracles. While baking cookies for a sick neighbor is good, I am certain these scriptures speak of far more.

If the heavens remain closed for the leaders of the LDS church or if they are closed for the members, they are those with whom God is angry. They do not have faith. If one wants to use this term, they have gone astray or dwindled in unbelief. I was once in this category. I was astray and dwindled in unbelief. I don't just point the finger at others, honestly, I am really speaking about myself here. I feel I have a ways to go before I can say I have developed the type of faith that pleases God.

However, the Lord is merciful unto all who come to Him. Anyone can repent and receive these gifts. Position or calling has no bearing on whether or not you have the faith that pleases God. Signs follow those who have this faith.

[Frederick]

I find it interesting how the LDS church calls what is happening in Sweden an apostasy. Apostasy from what? What about the LDS church, can it ever go into apostasy? What does that term even mean?

Having legitimate questions does not equal apostasy. That is exactly how Joseph Smith started his own journey to God.

If the LDS church has a hard time giving satisfactory answers, it may be that they themselves do not have a complete understanding of our situation as a church and of our own history.

One thing I find very interesting is that the LDS church does not allow the possibility that as a people, we can dwindle in unbelief. Rarely do admit the possibility that our understanding of the gospel today is less than that of the early saints, such as those from the Kirtland era. An era in which spiritual gifts and heavenly manifestations were abundant.

We simply accept that those things were in the past and that the heavens open differently for us now. I heard a GA say almost exactly that not too long ago in general conference.

The fact is, if the heavens are closed to us, if we do not have angels that appear and minister to us, then we do not have faith and awful is our state. We are is if there had been NO redemption made for us. Moroni 7:38

We love to think we can sprout a seedling of faith and tell ourselves, it is enough, we have done it. Yet Mormon states quite differently in Moroni 7.

The heavens testify of our standing before God. They are open or they are closed. That is how we can tell if we are in apostasy or not.

Amen, Frederick!

Even so, the Church IS serving God's purposes. There is more and more opposition being created by the actions and choices she is making. Opposition is necessary to get the individual to the point of awareness of spiritual awakening; sifting us into a spiritual walk...nudging fence sitters to take the leap of faith, etc. So, she is doing well in this; it is just not the role she claims to be fulfilling.

Thanks Jo! You are absolutely right, the LDS church is serving God's purpose. Among the many blessings it provides, it publishes the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. It also publishes other writings of Joseph Smith, such as TPJS and the Lectures on Faith, even if many in the church tend to distance themselves from the doctrines taught therein.

Sadly, I think those in Sweden and those sent to "rescue" them, are neither one quite getting it. The gospel is not about fidelity to an organization. It is about connecting to the Savior.

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 63)

This scripture says the same thing as Moroni 7. Signs follow those that have faith. The heavens literally open the same way they did for those who wrote the Book of Mormon. The signs that Mormon said we should see should be angels appearing and ministering to men, and in this scripture, mighty works and miracles. Biblical style miracles. While baking cookies for a sick neighbor is good, I am certain these scriptures speak of far more.

If the heavens remain closed for the leaders of the LDS church or if they are closed for the members, they are those with whom God is angry. They do not have faith. If one wants to use this term, they have gone astray or dwindled in unbelief. I was once in this category. I was astray and dwindled in unbelief. I don't just point the finger at others, honestly, I am really speaking about myself here. I feel I have a ways to go before I can say I have developed the type of faith that pleases God.

However, the Lord is merciful unto all who come to Him. Anyone can repent and receive these gifts. Position or calling has no bearing on whether or not you have the faith that pleases God. Signs follow those who have this faith.

[jo1952]

I find it interesting how the LDS church calls what is happening in Sweden an apostasy. Apostasy from what? What about the LDS church, can it ever go into apostasy? What does that term even mean?

Having legitimate questions does not equal apostasy. That is exactly how Joseph Smith started his own journey to God.

If the LDS church has a hard time giving satisfactory answers, it may be that they themselves do not have a complete understanding of our situation as a church and of our own history.

One thing I find very interesting is that the LDS church does not allow the possibility that as a people, we can dwindle in unbelief. Rarely do admit the possibility that our understanding of the gospel today is less than that of the early saints, such as those from the Kirtland era. An era in which spiritual gifts and heavenly manifestations were abundant.

We simply accept that those things were in the past and that the heavens open differently for us now. I heard a GA say almost exactly that not too long ago in general conference.

The fact is, if the heavens are closed to us, if we do not have angels that appear and minister to us, then we do not have faith and awful is our state. We are is if there had been NO redemption made for us. Moroni 7:38

We love to think we can sprout a seedling of faith and tell ourselves, it is enough, we have done it. Yet Mormon states quite differently in Moroni 7.

The heavens testify of our standing before God. They are open or they are closed. That is how we can tell if we are in apostasy or not.

Amen, Frederick!

Even so, the Church IS serving God's purposes. There is more and more opposition being created by the actions and choices she is making. Opposition is necessary to get the individual to the point of awareness of spiritual awakening; sifting us into a spiritual walk...nudging fence sitters to take the leap of faith, etc. So, she is doing well in this; it is just not the role she claims to be fulfilling.

Thanks Jo! You are absolutely right, the LDS church is serving God's purpose. Among the many blessings it provides, it publishes the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price and the Doctrine and Covenants. It also publishes other writings of Joseph Smith, such as TPJS and the Lectures on Faith, even if many in the church tend to distance themselves from the doctrines taught therein.

Sadly, I think those in Sweden and those sent to "rescue" them, are neither one quite getting it. The gospel is not about fidelity to an organization. It is about connecting to the Savior.

9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 63)

This scripture says the same thing as Moroni 7. Signs follow those that have faith. The heavens literally open the same way they did for those who wrote the Book of Mormon. The signs that Mormon said we should see should be angels appearing and ministering to men, and in this scripture, mighty works and miracles. Biblical style miracles. While baking cookies for a sick neighbor is good, I am certain these scriptures speak of far more.

If the heavens remain closed for the leaders of the LDS church or if they are closed for the members, they are those with whom God is angry. They do not have faith. If one wants to use this term, they have gone astray or dwindled in unbelief. I was once in this category. I was astray and dwindled in unbelief. I don't just point the finger at others, honestly, I am really speaking about myself here. I feel I have a ways to go before I can say I have developed the type of faith that pleases God.

However, the Lord is merciful unto all who come to Him. Anyone can repent and receive these gifts. Position or calling has no bearing on whether or not you have the faith that pleases God. Signs follow those who have this faith.

D&C 63:11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

I have been presenting a different interpretation of D&C 1:30 wherein the other churches Joseph was not supposed to join because they were all wrong did not mean that they weren't "true" churches. The seven churches in the Book of Revelation were "true" churches; as were the many different churches the ancient Apostles wrote epistles to. Now, in connection with the verse from D&C 63:11, I would offer that the Lord is no longer well pleased with the LDS Church "collectively". Does that mean that she is no longer a "true" church? I would say no; rather she has joined the numbers of other churches with whom the Lord is not well pleased. Still, an individual can "show signs" because their faith pleases God. As I have also been presenting, individuals in ALL denominations "show signs" because their faith also pleases God. Priesthood power is accessed in righteous faith---it doesn't matter what "church" you belong to. Individually, faith and Priesthood power is manifesting by the signs that follow the faith of those individuals; regardless of whether they are LDS or not.

[Franktalk]

They do not have faith.

I would like to expand on this. I think the members who follow the leaders with unquestionable faith are applying their faith in a way that is not pleasing to the Lord. The members that point their faith to God can individually be pleasing to God. If we look at D and C 63

8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

We see that there were some in the church already that did seek signs and that did not sit well with God. Every church that I have been in seeks signs. But if their faith is right in the eyes of God then they will get signs. But if their faith is pointed in the wrong direction then they receive no signs, only wrath in time.

So if the church stopped having revelations after Joseph Smith then something was not pleasing to God. If people read the scriptures and followed them then the laity would know something is wrong. But the laity of the church do not follow the scriptures they follow the leaders. They have lost their first love and that is the love of God. They have placed the leaders of the church between them and God. This is exactly what the Jews did with Moses. I have been in many churches and the LDS church is the only one that consistently quotes church leaders instead of the scriptures.

Matthew 10
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Let me add he who loves the prophet more than Jesus is not worthy of Jesus.

The people in Sweden knew something was wrong. Maybe a strong wind was blowing from Denmark. Anyway, the feeling manifest in questions of the history but came from a general uneasiness I am sure. So the people wanted an answer to their feelings. What they got was a confirmation of their feelings.

Because the church is under the law it can not admit to error. That would be allowing the law a wide acceptance due to possible error. It is more important for the law to be followed by some to the letter, and throw out those who don't fit the mold.

In Romans Paul described those who worship the creation and not God. God gave them a desire for strange flesh. He gave them what they desired in spades. The church of law will be given the desire for the law beyond the logic of man.

Of course most of this is my interpretation of the scriptures and personal observation. Thus an opinion.

[jo1952]

Jesus taught:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jesus spoke volumes! He that has ears, let him hear.

[Frederick]

They do not have faith.

I would like to expand on this. I think the members who follow the leaders with unquestionable faith are applying their faith in a way that is not pleasing to the Lord. The members that point their faith to God can individually be pleasing to God. If we look at D and C 63

8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

We see that there were some in the church already that did seek signs and that did not sit well with God. Every church that I have been in seeks signs. But if their faith is right in the eyes of God then they will get signs. But if their faith is pointed in the wrong direction then they receive no signs, only wrath in time.

So if the church stopped having revelations after Joseph Smith then something was not pleasing to God. If people read the scriptures and followed them then the laity would know something is wrong. But the laity of the church do not follow the scriptures they follow the leaders. They have lost their first love and that is the love of God. They have placed the leaders of the church between them and God. This is exactly what the Jews did with Moses. I have been in many churches and the LDS church is the only one that consistently quotes church leaders instead of the scriptures.

Matthew 10
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Let me add he who loves the prophet more than Jesus is not worthy of Jesus.

The people in Sweden knew something was wrong. Maybe a strong wind was blowing from Denmark. Anyway, the feeling manifest in questions of the history but came from a general uneasiness I am sure. So the people wanted an answer to their feelings. What they got was a confirmation of their feelings.

Because the church is under the law it can not admit to error. That would be allowing the law a wide acceptance due to possible error. It is more important for the law to be followed by some to the letter, and throw out those who don't fit the mold.

In Romans Paul described those who worship the creation and not God. God gave them a desire for strange flesh. He gave them what they desired in spades. The church of law will be given the desire for the law beyond the logic of man.

Of course most of this is my interpretation of the scriptures and personal observation. Thus an opinion.

Frank,

Your thoughts are wonderful here. I especially liked two things you stated, if the church followed the scriptures instead of the leaders, they would recognize something was wrong because the heavens are closed. This can be seen so clearly in Moroni 7:37-38

And I think you are also right about the church not being able to admit error. By examining the scriptures, each one of us can determine our own level of apostasy by how much the heavens reveal themselves to us. Do we have the manifestations of heavenly gifts as the saints did in Kirtland? Or do we see a lack of these gifts.

If these gifts lack for us, we can repent and turn to Christ. I can openly testify that the heavens can and do open for anyone who truly comes unto Christ.

[jo1952]

They do not have faith.

I would like to expand on this. I think the members who follow the leaders with unquestionable faith are applying their faith in a way that is not pleasing to the Lord. The members that point their faith to God can individually be pleasing to God. If we look at D and C 63

8 Verily, I say unto you, there are those among you who seek signs, and there have been such even from the beginning;
9 But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe.
10 Yea, signs come by faith, not by the will of men, nor as they please, but by the will of God.
11 Yea, signs come by faith, unto mighty works, for without faith no man pleaseth God; and with whom God is angry he is not well pleased; wherefore, unto such he showeth no signs, only in wrath unto their condemnation.

We see that there were some in the church already that did seek signs and that did not sit well with God. Every church that I have been in seeks signs. But if their faith is right in the eyes of God then they will get signs. But if their faith is pointed in the wrong direction then they receive no signs, only wrath in time.

So if the church stopped having revelations after Joseph Smith then something was not pleasing to God. If people read the scriptures and followed them then the laity would know something is wrong. But the laity of the church do not follow the scriptures they follow the leaders. They have lost their first love and that is the love of God. They have placed the leaders of the church between them and God. This is exactly what the Jews did with Moses. I have been in many churches and the LDS church is the only one that consistently quotes church leaders instead of the scriptures.

Matthew 10
37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Let me add he who loves the prophet more than Jesus is not worthy of Jesus.

The people in Sweden knew something was wrong. Maybe a strong wind was blowing from Denmark. Anyway, the feeling manifest in questions of the history but came from a general uneasiness I am sure. So the people wanted an answer to their feelings. What they got was a confirmation of their feelings.

Because the church is under the law it can not admit to error. That would be allowing the law a wide acceptance due to possible error. It is more important for the law to be followed by some to the letter, and throw out those who don't fit the mold.

In Romans Paul described those who worship the creation and not God. God gave them a desire for strange flesh. He gave them what they desired in spades. The church of law will be given the desire for the law beyond the logic of man.

Of course most of this is my interpretation of the scriptures and personal observation. Thus an opinion.

Frank,

Your thoughts are wonderful here. I especially liked two things you stated, if the church followed the scriptures instead of the leaders, they would recognize something was wrong because the heavens are closed. This can be seen so clearly in Moroni 7:37-38

And I think you are also right about the church not being able to admit error. By examining the scriptures, each one of us can determine our own level of apostasy by how much the heavens reveal themselves to us. Do we have the manifestations of heavenly gifts as the saints did in Kirtland? Or do we see a lack of these gifts.

If these gifts lack for us, we can repent and turn to Christ. I can openly testify that the heavens can and do open for anyone who truly comes unto Christ.

Praise God!

[Squally]

In the absence of logical, historical justification, what "fruits" can I profess to my non LDS friends?

What instances of prophets, seers and revelators can I offer them?

Any thoughts?

Give them one of the new Monson medallions.

:ymparty:

Isn't it amazing how great the Monson Medallion is. It even eminates humility if you turn your head sideways with one eye closed! Try it!

[buffalo_girl]

Isn't it amazing how great the Monson Medallion is. It even eminates humility if you turn your head sideways with one eye closed! Try it!

Rather, shouldn't a follower of Christ be contemplating the Savior's example of humility rather than that of a good, but mortal man?

I thought The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discouraged the worship of icons and relics.

[gkearney]

Sweden is a beautiful country. I have a friend over there (not LDS at this time). Is any one actually going over to Sweden any time soon? It would be interesting to do so I think, if we had sufficient love in our hearts for the people and what they are going through. We're in this together.

(THinking out loud I guess. I mean, we moved here to a small branch -- a "twig" - in NW Missouri. And we're reaching out to people here. There is a couple I home teach who have become disenchanted with the Church fairly recently. Its interesting to talk to them, pray about and for them. You know?)

I travel to Sweden on business from time to time.

[chase]

“There is a temptation for the writer or the teacher of Church history to want to tell everything, whether it is worthy or faith promoting or not. Some things that are true are not very useful.” -Boyd K Packer.


“If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak.”-President George A. Smith


“If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” – President J. Reuben Clark


Incorrect traditions and deceptions aren't very useful.

Truth is useful. Honesty is useful.

Truth is not always useful. Some people use "truth" to hurt others. Somethings are really better left unsaid. Telling your wife she is fat and unattractive to you may be truth, but it isn't very useful. And it doesn't lift anyone. So I think we have to take into account our motivations.

No, truth is always useful. Half truths are never useful. Every truth about this Church could be declared from the rooftops, and the work of God would move forward...probably faster. What leads people out of the church is half truth, not truth. Someone dealing in half truths would say, "Joseph Smith asked Sarah Pratt to marry him while her husband Orson was in England on a mission. You MUST leave the church." Someone dealing in truth would say, "What is the purpose for this exchange between the Pratts and Joseph? How does William Law factor in? What effect did this have on the Church, and what doctrinal lesson can I possibly learn from it?" The problem is, inquiring minds (not scholars or intellectuals, just curious people) as questions like, "Why did Heber J Grant change the mode of ordination and then David O. McKay change it back again?" When we do, there are tooooo many voices who say, "You've found fault with the brethren! You are destroying faith!!!" No, I have not found fault with the brethren. I just want to know why. Is curiosity a crime? If so, then I am afraid that we have entered into an age of censorship and forced silence. The founding fathers would be ashamed. If things like this were a mistake, that's fine, I just want to know about it. Not a sin. Not apostasy. Useful. Helpful. Truth.

[Squally]

Icon worship, leadership, position, achievement, wealth, degrees, fine linens, outward appearances, standing on others to get higher.

[buffalo_girl]

Have to agree with all that, Chase.

I don't devote a lot of time to studying Church history, but over the years have come face-to-face with documents that give me pause. Some have been faith trying of the 'first magnitude'. I must admit that at those times, I have 'wavered' in my reliance on and trust in the institution of the Church.

At the same time, those trials have literally driven me to my knees, to fasting, and to the scriptures. EVERY question I have taken to the Lord has been answered either from the scriptures or through some remarkable experience which has given me insight and/or perspective I hadn't had previously.

The conclusion I've come to is that every one of us from the President of the Church down to the infant in arms must grow spiritually step-by-step. From the various journals kept by Joseph Smith's scribes, I have the distinct impression that outside the specific revelations and visitations, Brother Joseph was often 'winging it' the best he knew how given his acquired worldly knowledge and the circumstances in which he found himself. I have no doubt he was a genius, but often genius runs ahead of common sense.

We all know 2Nephi 28
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

It really is a specifically designed learning program for each individual.

From my experience, it is a waste of precious time to allow one's faith to be shattered over the behaviors of those we perceive to be closer to God. We can all benefit from living the moral behavior required of members of the Church, wise counsel from Priesthood leaders, and from consistent structural context, but our Eternal Salvation requires a personal ongoing relationship with our Savior.

[ajax]

Here is what B. H. Roberts said to a reader who protested his omission of the "martyrdom miracles" from his multi-volume Comprehensive History of the Church, specifically the "attempted beheading of Joseph Smith at Carthage and a shaft of light preventing it." Roberts replied:

Suppose your youth receive their impressions of church history from
"pictures and stories" and build their faith upon these alleged miracles
[and] shall someday come face to face with the fact that their belief
rests on falsehoods, what then will be the result? Will they not say that
since these things are myth and our Church has permitted them to be
perpetuated . . . might not the other fundamentals to the actual story
of the Church, the things in which it had its origin, might they not all
be lies and nothing but lies?

from Truman G. Madsen's Defender of the Faith: The B. H. Roberts Story.

[AussieOi]

Freudian, coincidence, deliberate, a message, or just what significance SLC places on Sweden?


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[AussieOi]

Really good post BuffGl.