LDS Freedom Forum

Abstinence is birth control. And not a sin.
And is nothing like, nor comparable to adultery or homosexuality.
I really think you miss something here.
That is, the distinctions.
I don't believe anyone ever caught a disease from abstinence.
And that's not the end of it.
dc

David13 wrote:Abstinence is birth control. And not a sin.
And is nothing like, nor comparable to adultery or homosexuality.
I really think you miss something here.
That is, the distinctions.
I don't believe anyone ever caught a disease from abstinence.
And that's not the end of it.
dc

Depends, in Judaism if a man, for example, refused to have relations with his wife because he wanted no children with her then you would have grounds for divorce. This of course was true in the USA up until the advent of no-fault divorce. Also, the legalization of birth control did not occur nationwide until the mid-1960s. Christianity seeing birth control as okay is a relatively recent transformation -- appears that LDS have been affected by the dominant culture as well.

As for homosexuality there is a connection to population control that has been discussed here. Even pornography, the apex of capitalism, is connected with population control, both in terms of societal pacification and reduction of birth rates.

Fiannan old bud, I think we might be on common ground here. But what about birth control? That has certainly has set back reproduction too. Is that a sin on the same level as homosexuality?

Look up statements of prophets of The Restoration -- plenty of commentary there. ;)

I would prefer to discuss this in regards to evolutionary psychology however. Obviously if two men form an exclusive relationship then that will be the end of both their family lines. In most lesbian situations the couples usually only have one or two babies through donors and only one becomes the birth-mother. So there you might have genetic enhancement since most lesbians get donors through clinics that weed out inferior potential donors but you also have an overall negative birthrate as you would minimally need such couples to have 5 kids to replace themselves overall.

So to answer your question I think homosexuality is something that is being normalized and mainstreamed with a population reduction agenda behind it. As for sin, I believe at least with males the Old Testament says it is. Yet a woman in such a relationship who has children is probably more in line with the Bible that a woman who is married to a man but chooses never to reproduce.

Sirocco wrote:

Thinker wrote:Sirroco,
It would help if you read the OP before engaging in more logical fallacy and cognitive distortion, unless of course, emotional reasoning is all you have considered...

You just couldn't repost that without adding an insult could you?

I never had any harsh words or thoughts about you, heck I even admitted some lack of, I suppose qualifications to speak about this, if it were, but you just couldn't respond without digging at me.

My quote is right above yours and if you reread it - you'll notice that there is no insult to you personally, but about your way of arguing, using logical fallacy - like strawman or red hering. Logical fallacy also can include ad hominem attack - so I'm aware of the difference between attacking illogical comments and attacking a person personally, as you have done. Yet, it seems you do not realize the difference, because you have used logical fallacy again, to avoid the inconvenient truths pointed out to you in response to your question.

If you have anything substantial to contribute to this discussion - please scroll up to my response to your question, read through the OP and other post about the statistical harm homosexual preferences shows to have, and comment on that, rather than making up some other easier-to-refute argument.
Thanks.

Sweet&Noble wrote:"Tim Cook is the CEO of Apple. He has sex with men. I’m not revealing anything about him that he has not revealed about himself. Here’s what he said:

“While I have never denied my sexuality, I haven’t publicly acknowledged it either, until now. So let me be clear: I’m proud to be gay, and I consider being gay among the greatest gifts God has given me.”

“Proud to be gay”? What does that mean?

It probably means he's no more ashamed of it than you are of being heterosexual.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Cook’s statement reveals something about how the same-sex sexuality movement defines itself. Cook states that he never denied his “sexuality.” A pedophile and an adulterer could say the same thing. There are millions of people who argue that that they are “proud” of their behavior.

It really doesn't reveal anything like that. It's just a handy excuse for you to make a salacious comment about pedophiles and adulterers, hoping people will conflate them with gay people. But since most pedophiles and adulterers are heterosexual, you should probably refrain from using them to try to prove how bad homosexuality is.

Millions of people who are proud of their behavior aren't pedophiles or adulterers. And millions of pedophiles and adulterers are heterosexuals.

Sweet&Noble wrote:“The statement that paedophilia is ‘natural and normal’ was made not three decades ago but last July [2013]. It was made not in private but as one of the central claims of an academic presentation delivered, at the invitation of the organisers, to many of the key experts in the field at a conference held by the University of Cambridge.

People say idiotic things all the time.

Sweet&Noble wrote: ... That was only 22 years ago. A lot could change in another 22 years. Pedophilia could be mainstreamed.

Crimes against children will never be mainstreamed.

Sweet&Noble wrote:I and millions of other people believe same-sex sexuality is immoral, anti-science, and irrational.

I and millions of other people believe adultery is immoral too. We just know it's generally none of our business.

Sweet&Noble wrote:The Bible states that it is “unnatural” (Rom. 1:26-27) in terms of biology and thereby irrational.

The Bible doesn't quite say that. You added that part about "in terms of biology." And the Bible condemns adultery much more rigorously than it does homosexuality. Where's your outrage about adultery?

Sweet&Noble wrote:Those who reject the Bible have nothing from which to argue in order to make their case for anything.

You reject the Bible yourself. I don't even have to ask you to know that you don't think adulterers should be stoned to death, or that divorced women who remarry are adulterers, or that women shouldn't be allowed to speak in church, or that eating shrimp is a capital crime. So I guess since you've rejected the Bible, you're the one who has nothing from which to argue in order to make your case for anything, right?

Sweet&Noble wrote:In fact, in evolutionary terms, same-sex sexuality is contrary to evolution.

So is modern medical care.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Tim’s Cook’s DNA will stop with him.

Why would you object to that?

Sweet&Noble wrote:If he attempts to find a surrogate, he will only be admitting that same-sex sexuality is “unnatural.”

No more than the millions of heterosexual people, who use in vitro fertilization in order to have children, are admitting their sexuality is unnatural.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Religious freedom laws protect everybody. They are not about discriminating against anybody.

If that's the case then nobody will have any problems with them.

Sweet&Noble wrote:It’s not surprising that Tim Cook “does not quote a single word from any of the religious freedom laws he denounces” which are an extension of the First Amendment, you know, that pesky right from the Constitution that has served our nation well for more than 230 years.

Since freedom of religion is so clearly protected in the First Amendment, and since it's served us well for so long, there's certainly no need for state laws protecting it anew.

This spate of laws enshrining the practice of withholding services from people whose personal, private choices offend you have nothing to do with religious freedom. They have to do with people's need to pretend gay people don't exist. These so-called religious freedom laws have about as much to do with religous freedom as the Patriot Act has to do with patriotism.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Why were these new state laws necessary?

They weren't.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Because of people like Tim Cook who wants to cut down the Liberty Tree of clear thinking and impose his will on the vast majority of Americans by force of law. Cook is a bigot and hypocrite who wants to force people to believe like he does ...

Isn't Tim Cook speaking out against using the force of law to protect your right to act as judge & jury on gay people?

Sweet&Noble wrote:This is done by forcing people to accept certain behaviours they believe are contrary to their worldview.

Nobody is forcing anybody to accept anything.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Everybody should have this freedom.

Everybody does have it. You can quietly condemn every single gay person you run into. You just can't deprive them of the same freedoms that you have because you think they are sinners.

Sweet&Noble wrote:Cook and others are calling for a boycott of Indiana saying they refuse to do business with the state. They are free to do so, but if a baker wants to boycott a same-sex wedding, it’s a criminal offense.

I don't believe the baker should be in trouble unless there are no other bakers to choose from. I thought that was over the top.

Sweet&Noble wrote:These religious freedom laws were written for people like Barronelle Stutzman, owner of Arlene's Flowers, “who declined to provide flowers for a same-sex wedding because of her Christian belief in traditional marriage.” She “has been fined $1,001 by a Washington court and will be held liable to pay the legal fees incurred by the gay couple

[/quote]I don't think that's fair either, but only as long as there are other florists of equal quality readily available to the couple in question.

Quote from KMCopeland
"I don't believe the baker should be in trouble unless there are no other bakers to choose from. I thought that was over the top."

KM
There is the point. You finally found it. The whole 'homosexual agenda' is indeed 'over the top', gone too far, been carried long beyond what it should have been, been used as a weapon against decent people and should not have been.

Fiannan
What you are telling me about tv is that it is basically non graphic pornography today? Then why do you watch it?
Or do you turn it on and see, then just turn it off? I do that. 400 channels and I find nothing on. I like Phil Robertson (the one with the beard) but their show is ridiculously stupid. I never watched more than 2 minutes.
dc

Fiannan wrote:So to answer your question I think homosexuality is something that is being normalized and mainstreamed with a population reduction agenda behind it.

Seems a lot more likely the only agenda is gay people have gotten tired of hiding.

Fiannan wrote:As for sin, I believe at least with males the Old Testament says it is. Yet a woman in such a relationship who has children is probably more in line with the Bible that a woman who is married to a man but chooses never to reproduce.

So it's the actual act of being pregnant that puts the homosexual woman more in line with the Bible than the homosexual man?

David13 wrote:Quote from KMCopeland
"I don't believe the baker should be in trouble unless there are no other bakers to choose from. I thought that was over the top."

KM
There is the point. You finally found it. The whole 'homosexual agenda' is indeed 'over the top', gone too far, been carried long beyond what it should have been, been used as a weapon against decent people and should not have been.

I think you're overreacting.

So it's the actual act of being pregnant that puts the homosexual woman more in line with the Bible than the homosexual man?

If a gay man were married to a lesbian woman and they used IVF to have children then that at least would mean he was fulfilling the first commandment - to multiply and replenish the earth. However, such unions, though they sometimes exist, are exceedingly rare.

Ultimately sex and sexuality, whether from a Biblical or evolutionary standpoint, is for reproduction - all other factors, unless we get into esoteric considerations regarding spiritual intermingling, are mere side benefits. So in a manner of speaking yes, a woman (one who is heterosexual or lesbian) who desires to bring children into the world and nurture them is equal in that aspect of righteousness. While there may be other factors one could consider both deserve flowers on Mother's Day.

Fiannan wrote:

So it's the actual act of being pregnant that puts the homosexual woman more in line with the Bible than the homosexual man?

If a gay man were married to a lesbian woman and they used IVF to have children then that at least would mean he was fulfilling the first commandment - to multiply and replenish the earth. However, such unions, though they sometimes exist, are exceedingly rare.

Ultimately sex and sexuality, whether from a Biblical or evolutionary standpoint, is for reproduction - all other factors, unless we get into esoteric considerations regarding spiritual intermingling, are mere side benefits. So in a manner of speaking yes, a woman (one who is heterosexual or lesbian) who desires to bring children into the world and nurture them is equal in that aspect of righteousness. While there may be other factors one could consider both deserve flowers on Mother's Day.

I suppose. Mother's Day is a good thing. And although there's merit in discussing who will and won't find favor with the Lord, and what is and isn't sin, I just think that putting a magnifying glass on other people's sins can't help but go a long way towards helping us ignore our own. Although I have to say Fiannan, you're less self-righteous than many are about this subject.

I don't claim any righteousness about it at all. I just state my opinion, based on my belief.
I don't need to put a magnifying glass on to see the pride parade, the lawsuits, the court cases, the news reports, etc. If it was like that, only visible with a magnifying glass, I would never pick up the magnifying glass. And we would have no idea what the homosexuals were up to. And I would be happy not knowing.
Now as to the 'overreacting', that is what I accuse the homosexuals of doing. If a baker won't bake a cake for you, go to a different baker. Don't file a law suit, don't file a complaint with a state commission, don't attack their religious or other belief and demand that the government forbid it. Show the tolerance you want and allow them the freedom you want.
Don't parade your sexuality (perversion) in public around town. Don't go into the schools and demand special education about what you do.
dc
Don't make a public protest into a private meeting of an organization (as mentioned in the op).

David13 wrote:I don't claim any righteousness about it at all. I just state my opinion, based on my belief.
I don't need to put a magnifying glass on to see the pride parade, the lawsuits, the court cases, the news reports, etc. If it was like that, only visible with a magnifying glass, I would never pick up the magnifying glass. And we would have no idea what the homosexuals were up to. And I would be happy not knowing.
Now as to the 'overreacting', that is what I accuse the homosexuals of doing. If a baker won't bake a cake for you, go to a different baker. Don't file a law suit, don't file a complaint with a state commission, don't attack their religious or other belief and demand that the government forbid it. Show the tolerance you want and allow them the freedom you want.
Don't parade your sexuality (perversion) in public around town. Don't go into the schools and demand special education about what you do.
dc
Don't make a public protest into a private meeting of an organization (as mentioned in the op).

So well put!!

Speaking of the cake scenerio... Watch the hypocricy when the tables are turned...

Christian man asks gay bakeries to make pro-traditional marriage cake (& they refuse)
http://youtu.be/AJaroR_qTNs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

5 corrupt people should not be on the Supreme Court because they overstepped their jurisdiction.
Their duty is NOT to create law - but to interpret if it is constitutional or not.
Developing a homosexual disorder has nothing to do with the constitution.
There are no special rights for sucking a thumb or other fetishes (like anal sex).

I hope and pray those who are taking steps to correct the wrongs some in government have done, will be guided and helped to succeed.
Otherwise, God help this country who seems to have the constitution "hanging by a thread" with the foundation (family) changed to that of sexual disorder.

David13 wrote:Quote from KMCopeland
"I don't believe the baker should be in trouble unless there are no other bakers to choose from. I thought that was over the top."

KM
There is the point. You finally found it. The whole 'homosexual agenda' is indeed 'over the top', gone too far, been carried long beyond what it should have been, been used as a weapon against decent people and should not have been.

Agreed!

David,
You mentioned the homosexual agenda. It has been a strategic plan to sway public opinion by force - by bullying, by calling names, lying - anything that is required to psychologically undermine anyone who disagrees, so that those mentally weak will submit and go along. It explains why otherwise intelligent people are falling for ridiculous nonsense, that even defies their own undeniably true means of existence and reproduction.

"The homosexual propaganda campaign in America's media
The powerful, sophisticated psychological techniques that the homosexual movement has used to manipulate the public in the media.

From the 1989 book, "After the Ball - How America will conquer its fear and hatred of Gays in the 90s" (Penguin Books) which immediately became a beacon for the then-emerging homosexual movement.

Building on the basic strategies outlined in Marshall Kirk's groundbreaking 1987 article, "The Overhauling of Straight America", this book puts forth the very sophisticated psychological persuasion and propaganda mass media techniques that we've all seen and been affected by over the years -- but never understood what was happening....

A founding work of the modern homosexual movement, this book covers a wide discussion of tactics and observations relating to the homosexual movement. But the overall main psychological strategies are well summarized in a ten-page section (pp. 147-157) titled "Pushing the right buttons: halting, derailing, or reversing the 'engine of prejudice'". Reprinted below, this is the meat of the book which has been re-used and referred to by the homosexual movement countless times.

It discusses (1) Desensitization, (2) Jamming, and (3) Conversion."

http://www.massresistance.org/docs/issu ... _ball.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Recognizing a disorder as a disorder, a mental disorder, is NOT prejudice. It's basic knowledge.
The "engine of prejudice" in reality is a part of the vast campaign to bring about the acceptance as normal, of a perversion.
Another perversion of the homosexual agenda is to define anyone who opposes defining perversion as normal as a ... -phobe. Fearful. Afraid of the perversion.
No, there are just people who refuse to redefine the difference between right and wrong. And they continue to see homosexuality as a wrong and an abomination.
dc

David13 wrote:Recognizing a disorder as a disorder, a mental disorder, is NOT prejudice. It's basic knowledge.
The "engine of prejudice" in reality is a part of the vast campaign to bring about the acceptance as normal, of a perversion.
Another perversion of the homosexual agenda is to define anyone who opposes defining perversion as normal as a ... -phobe. Fearful. Afraid of the perversion.
No, there are just people who refuse to redefine the difference between right and wrong. And they continue to see homosexuality as a wrong and an abomination.
dc

I have been called such names - put down and even threatened anonymously, because I presented inconvenient truths about the glaring statistics revealing consequences of homosexual practices.

Part of the reason is due to herd mentality - stoning anybody who objects to harmful behavior. But it could also be that people who are in the depth of some addiction - whether it is alcohol, food, sex, etc. - will sometimes act in very evil ways when they feel their idol of addiction is threatened. They project their fear, by calling out "homophobe."

It's kind of funny because I am probably less afraid of people with homosexual preferences than most.
Throughout my life, I've had many good friends with such preferences and a couple of people in my extended family have developed homosexual preferences. At times, I've reached out to them when others haven't - and I've even stood up for some who have been put down. I honestly believe in loving people, no matter if they prefer artichoke soup or sexual substitutes or any other preference. But I also feel morally obligated to point out harmful - sometimes FATAL - behavior for what it is, especially when so many are attempting to paint it as happy rainbows.

If I really love someone, I want what's best for them - not what's best for me in appearing "nice."

Again, it's important to remember that we ALL have some imperfection.
If someone were to tell a bone-skinny anorexic, "Yes, YOU are fat" - out of fear of disagreeing with them, how loving is that?
It's loving to call harm what it is, not pretend that it's healthy and "gay rainbows" when so often it proves otherwise.

The greatest commandment is to love others - and love God -God is the HIGHEST GOoD.
As we love others, we love GOoD.
Love the sinners - all of us - but don't love the sin.

let the scriptures speak for themselves......

Romans 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

King James Version (KJV)

Leviticus 18:20

Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour’s wife, to defile thyself with her.

21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:

25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:

27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled;)

28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.

30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God.


Again more scriptures...but I suppose we could excuse ourselves and say the law of Moses was done away...

For the life of me (and no I am not blasting my own horn or in thinking I am any better than anybody else) all this dilly dallyin around with nice words is not going to solve the problem ....Repent Repent ...go thy way and sin no more...but if not then we will suffer the consequences...
Disorder.....call it what it is and face the music...we have brought it upon ourselves. ..the inner vessel is filthy...as in our houses ..our society. ..etc etc..and unless we repent it is just going to get worse and worse. ..and according to our lovely beautiful book of Morman, we get worse until a big fat spanking comes our way...and then it seems that part of the spanking is in the form of the remnant of Jacob that comes among us like a lion among sheep...
But back to the point...is "happy boy" ( that's what a friend calls it) syndrome a disorder...absolutely. ..actually a sin unto death so says Apostle Paul ....and now dont go jumping all over me... he said it not me ....but you can get on my case because frankly i agree with him...and also no excuses as he is from the new testament after Christ... one of my many hero's .....but my observations tell me that unless we as a people repent and get our heads out of the clouds it's just going to get worse until we make Sodom and Gomorrah look like a picnic...
Go do just a little research into crime statistics in the state of Utah in the 1800s then compare them to today's statistics...it is literally the brightest of day to the darkest of nights...so be sensible ...what happened ...why wasn't there practically nothing in the way of crime or adultery or anything for that matter then and now today...no such a thing as homosexuality then ...today rampant...why? (Among other things)...but it's getting to be rampant in our church...something tells me something is dreadfully wrong...but if you dare say anything...you are self-righteous. ...
Now what's good for the finger pointing goose is good for the gander...my children? I have 15 ...8 boys 7 girls...if anyone of them gets into that garbage of same sex crap...they know I love them but will absolutely not tolerate it in my home....my castle...my house, that was dedicated for my family to live in ...in peace and protection from the adversary....so if I let that garbage into my house I give the adversary power over me and my children...Isaiah says who will be saved in the last days...those that hide their eyes and close their ears to the hearing of evil and violence...and I have a question ...how many people here have seen a live murder on the street ..me ? never in my 55 yr life ....and then how many murders have we watched on television....movies...novels. etc.how about adultery ....homosexuality...pornography.....molestation....abuse... swearing...and also swearing using our Lords name in vain....etc etc etc...there is no end or countless are the ways to sin....so says the good book
So I just reread....makes for a depressing gloomy outlook...
But is there hope? Absolutely ...and what is the hope?...repent ye repent ye for the kingdom of God is at hand...yea come unto me ye weary and heavily laden and bare my cross it is light and pleasant..etc
Now if we truly want and desire to go into the celestial kingdom...like Joseph Smith said it requires a sacrifice of all earthly things and even life itself...or at least the willingness to forfeit our personal life.
How many are truly willing?
This has gone on way to long ...apologies if I have insulted the innocent ...but no apologies for the homosexual....adiós

Well I couldn't stand it as this topic has been talked around.....discussed...dissected. ..in our family
But this applies:
Vice is a monster of so frightful mien, As, to be hated, needs but to be seen; Yet seen too oft, familiar with her face, We first endure, then pity, then embrace.

That's what is happening with our society. .

I've read a few articles recently ...1 about a study in I think it was done by the government of Sweden or Switzerland that did about the effects on people of all the chemicals in our foods in our lives houses..factories...pvc...fuels..vaccines. ..Gmo ...very interesting ..the study was done with a huge group of people seemed like the whole nation...their conclusión was that it was making men effeminate and that one of the signs was your boys wanting to play with dolls...lol...and girls becoming masculine. ..

So there must be a conspiracy
J.S. said so ...I guess it must be true..
" A band of evil conspiring men would poison our food supply"

You mean we have the wow to fight aginst gayness?

Make sence.

And really as a body of lds. Do we follow the wow??? Not even close. I know of maybe 1% that do. I talking about the diet.

Please explain....wow.?