LDS Freedom Forum

JohnnyL wrote:

jo1952 wrote:It appears that there are those who are still focusing on the Law which the Prophet Moses gave to the people when they were too fearful to meet directly with God. They are not yet ready to receive what Jesus taught. It is not recognized that Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. They are still bound to the Law. As such, they have not progressed any further than the children of Israel whom Moses led out of physical captivity. While we are still stuck to the world and the worldly Law, we are unable to accept what Jesus' physical death did for us spiritually. This can be seen through the inability of those who are content to persecute those whom they perceive to be wicked and abominable; they want to execute them. Christ forgave those who were executing His innocent body. We are busy judging others and desirous to kill them; while Christ asked Father to forgive those who were busy killing Him. We cannot receive Christ's gift of the Atonement while we are attached to the Law.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Love,

jo

Who are you accusing of wanting to seek out and execute homosexuals?
Love to you too.

JohnnyL wrote: I agree that being God-centered means being law-centered. If you love God, you'll show it by striving to be obedient.
The homosexual movement is a nice =; to both God and man.

JohnnyL wrote: Will these things happen in "a better society"? Will people who do these things be alive to live in such a society, say like, during the Millenium? Why or why not?

JohnnyL wrote: Please tell me, anyone, about Captain Moroni.

JohnnyL wrote: I disagree. I think Jesus' teachings are being twisted here. Though I do agree that the Pharisees were hypocrites, not just sinners.

John 8:
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

jo1952 wrote: Thank you, Thomas. It is food for thought to ponder the rest of the verse in Revelation 13:9...."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"!! How do you see this?

jo1952 wrote:

JohnnyL wrote:

jo1952 wrote:It appears that there are those who are still focusing on the Law which the Prophet Moses gave to the people when they were too fearful to meet directly with God. They are not yet ready to receive what Jesus taught. It is not recognized that Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. They are still bound to the Law. As such, they have not progressed any further than the children of Israel whom Moses led out of physical captivity. While we are still stuck to the world and the worldly Law, we are unable to accept what Jesus' physical death did for us spiritually. This can be seen through the inability of those who are content to persecute those whom they perceive to be wicked and abominable; they want to execute them. Christ forgave those who were executing His innocent body. We are busy judging others and desirous to kill them; while Christ asked Father to forgive those who were busy killing Him. We cannot receive Christ's gift of the Atonement while we are attached to the Law.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Love,

jo

Who are you accusing of wanting to seek out and execute homosexuals?
Love to you too.

There are posters participating on this forum who have said as much. Others have used words which shut the gates of heaven to the abomination of the sin which homosexuals commit. They have damned the homosexual; effectively trying to kill their soul. They have judged the homosexual. They have gone so far as to judge that the sins homosexuals commit are worse than other sins. However, for those still bound by the Law, the following applies:

James 2:8-11

8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

IOW, under the Law, if you break even the least commandment it is the same as though you have broken all of the commendments. Under the Law there is no distinction.

Love,

jo

JohnnyL wrote: Hardly the case. And under the law, there are distinctions. Wait, what Law??
If the case were whether you could get to heaven on your own, yes, breaking one little law would have the same effect towards that purpose as breaking all of them. Trying to apply that teaching to all commandments and sin is totally off from the intent it was given for. There certainly are distinctions.

SouthernMormon wrote: It is a dangerous folly to believe that one can turn negative angry energy into the “compassion of love” (something positive) instead of revenge. You see there are two absolutely opposing versions of loving one’s enemy. In the purest spiritual sense, love your enemy means to forbear to respond with resentment, hatred and rage and then do what you must. When you forbear to hate, you are in the purest sense unmasking, and thus rejecting, evil by revealing where your loyalties lie. You must see how threatening it is from the adversary’s point of view when they find you not lacking in faith. Whatever faith they think they have, comes from the victory of robbing you of yours.

Your love of good is tantamount to rejection of evil, therefore, and so not being in agreement, that rejection is felt as hatred. You have experienced this kind of thing in America. If you believe that homosexuality is a perversion then you are a homophobic.

Thomas wrote:

jo1952 wrote: Thank you, Thomas. It is food for thought to ponder the rest of the verse in Revelation 13:9...."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"!! How do you see this?

I think we are in for a trial of loving our oppressors. Christ has given us the ultimate example of this.

Baptists plan exodus from Boy Scouts
By Daniel Burke, CNN Belief Blog Co-Editor


(CNN) – For Southern Baptist pastor Tim Reed, it was Scripture versus the Scouts.

“God’s word explicitly says homosexuality is a choice, a sin,” said Reed, pastor of First Baptist Church of Gravel Ridge in Jacksonville, Arkansas.

So when the Boy Scouts of America voted to lift its ban on openly gay youths on May 24, Reed said the church had no choice but to cut its charter with Troop 542.

“It’s not a hate thing here,” Reed told CNN affiliate Fox 16. “It’s a moral stance we must take as a Southern Baptist church.”

Southern Baptist leaders say Reed is not alone.

Baptist churches sponsor nearly 4,000 Scout units representing more than 100,000 youths, according to the Boy Scouts of America.

That number could drop precipitously.

The Southern Baptist Convention, the country’s largest Protestant denomination, will soon urge its 45,000 congregations and 16 million members to cut ties with the Scouts, according to church leaders.

The denomination will vote on nonbinding but influential resolutions during a convention June 11-12 in Houston.

“There’s a 100% chance that there will be a resolution about disaffiliation at the convention,” said Richard Land, the longtime head of the Southern Baptists’ Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, “and a 100% chance that 99% of people will vote for it.”

“Southern Baptists are going to be leaving the Boy Scouts en masse,” Land continued.

Roger “Sing” Oldham, a spokesman for the Southern Baptist Convention, emphasized that local congregations make their own decision on the Scouts.

But he, too, said he expects Baptist delegates, which the church calls “messengers,” to voice their disagreement with the BSA's decision to allow gay youths.

“With this policy change, the Boy Scouts’ values are contradictory to the basic values of our local churches,” Oldham said.

Several religious groups with strong Scouting ties support the new policy.

“We have heard from both those who support the amended policy and those who would have preferred it would not have changed,” said BSA spokesman Deron Smith.

Faith-based organizations charter more than 70% of Scout chapters, providing meeting space and leadership, according to the BSA.

“There have been some organizations that have decided not to renew their charters with Scouting," said Smith, "but we can’t quantify the impact of the amended policy."

The National Jewish Committee on Scouting, the United Church of Christ, the Episcopal Church, the Unitarian Universalist Association and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which sponsors more Scout units than any other faith, all endorsed the change.

The National Catholic Committee on Scouting, which is run with oversight from a bishop, said Thursday that allowing gay youths in the Scouts does not conflict with church teaching. Each bishop will decide whether or not to allow churches in his diocese to charter Scout units, the committee added.

“We ask that Catholic Scouters and chartered organization heads not rush to judgment,” said Edward Martin, chairman of the National Catholic Committee on Scouting.

But the Rev. Derek Lappe, pastor of the Our Lady Star of the Sea Catholic Church in Bremerton, Washington, has already made up his mind.

“I do not feel that it is possible for us to live out, and to teach, the authentic truth about human sexuality within the confines of the Boy Scout’s new policy,” said Lappe.

The priest told CNN affiliate FOX16 that his parish will part ways with the Scouts and develop its own programs.

There may soon be an alternative to the Scouts for social conservatives like Lappe.

John Stemberger, founder of On My Honor, a group that opposed the Scouts’ change in policy, plans to convene conservatives in Louisville, Kentucky, in June to consider forming a new Scout-like group, which could be up and running by the end of 2013.

“Churches and Scoutmasters are looking for leadership and direction,” said Stemberg, an attorney in Orlando, Florida.

A number of conservative religious denominations already sponsor their own groups.

For instance, the Southern Baptists have the Royal Ambassadors, an explicitly Christian program founded in 1908 for boys in first through sixth grade. (A similar group called Challengers equips older boys in “mission education.”)

The name comes from the New Testament, in which the Apostle Paul tells Christians to be “ambassadors for Christ.”

The estimated 31,000 Royal Ambassadors pledge “ to become a well-informed, responsible follower of Christ; to have a Christlike concern for all people; to learn how to carry the message of Christ around the world; to work with others in sharing Christ; and to keep myself clean and healthy in mind and body."

While not as outdoorsy as the Boy Scouts, Ambassadors do camp and play sports, said Land, who was a member of the group during the 1950s. But instead of merit badges for archery and bird study, young Ambassadors earn patches for memorizing Bible verses and mission work.

Southern Baptists said they are preparing for a surge of interest in the Royal Ambassadors at their upcoming convention in Houston.

“We really have an opportunity here to strengthen our RA programs,” the Rev. Ernest Easley, chairman of the Southern Baptist Convention’s Executive Committee, said in a sermon last Sunday, “and to get the boys in a program where they’re going to be protected, where there’s a high moral standard and where they will have an opportunity to learn about camping, missions, evangelism in the local church.”

2 Nephi 2: 5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

Thomas wrote:

2 Nephi 2: 5 And men are instructed sufficiently that they know good from evil. And the law is given unto men. And by the law no flesh is justified; or, by the law men are cut off. Yea, by the temporal law they were cut off; and also, by the spiritual law they perish from that which is good, and become miserable forever.

6 Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; for he is full of grace and truth.

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

Many people feel that the commandments are burdensome and that they limit freedom and personal growth. But the Savior taught that true freedom comes only from following Him: “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free” (John 8:31–32). God gives commandments for our benefit. They are loving instructions for our happiness and for our physical and spiritual well-being.

In the premortal existence, Heavenly Father presided over a great Council in Heaven. There we learned of His plan for our salvation, which included a time of testing on the earth: “We will make an earth whereon these may dwell; and we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them” (Abraham 3:24-25). One reason we are here on the earth is to show our willingness to obey Heavenly Father's commandments.

The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that obedience to the commandments leads to blessings from God. He said: “There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—and when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20-21). King Benjamin also taught this principle. “I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God,” he counseled. “For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual; and if they hold out faithful to the end they are received into heaven, that thereby they may dwell with God in a state of never-ending happiness. O remember, remember that these things are true; for the Lord God hath spoken it” (Mosiah 2:41).

Our obedience to the commandments is an expression of our love for Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. The Savior said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments” (John 14:15). He later declared: “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love” (John 15:10).

Grace is the help or strength given through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ. Through the grace of God, everyone who has lived will be resurrected—our spirits will be reunited with our bodies, never again to be separated. Through His grace, the Lord also enables those who live His gospel to repent and be forgiven.

Grace is a gift from Heavenly Father given through His Son, Jesus Christ. The word grace, as used in the scriptures, refers primarily to enabling power and spiritual healing offered through the mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

Everyone on earth experiences physical death. Through the grace of Jesus Christ, all will be resurrected and will live forever (see 1 Corinthians 15:20-22; 2 Nephi 9:6-13).

Because of personal choices, everyone also experiences the effects of sin (see 1 John 1:8-10; Mosiah 16:4). These effects are called spiritual death. No one can return to the presence of God without divine grace. Through the Atonement, we all can be forgiven of our sins; we can become clean before God. To receive this enabling power, we must obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, which includes having faith in Him, repenting of our sins, being baptized, receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, and trying to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ for the rest of our lives (see Ephesians 2:8-9; James 2:17-22; 2 Nephi 25:23; 31:20).

The grace of God helps us every day. It strengthens us to do good works we could not do on our own. The Lord promised that if we humble ourselves before Him and have faith in Him, His grace will help us overcome all our personal weaknesses (see Ether 12:27).

As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind. Because of His Atonement, all people will be resurrected, and those who obey His gospel will receive the gift of eternal life with God.

Salvation from Sin. To be cleansed from sin through the Savior's Atonement, an individual must exercise faith in Jesus Christ, repent, be baptized, and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (see Acts 2:37-38). Those who have been baptized and have received the Holy Ghost through the proper priesthood authority have been conditionally saved from sin. In this sense, salvation is conditional, depending on an individual's continuing in faithfulness, or enduring to the end in keeping the commandments of God (see 2 Peter 2:20-22).

Individuals cannot be saved in their sins; they cannot receive unconditional salvation simply by declaring a belief in Christ with the understanding that they will inevitably commit sins throughout the rest of their lives (see Alma 11:36-37). However, through the grace of God, all can be saved from their sins (see 2 Nephi 25:23; Helaman 5:10-11) as they repent and follow Jesus Christ.

At the time of the resurrection, we will “be judged according to [our] works. . . . We shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all our guilt” (Alma 11:41, 43). The eternal glory we receive will depend on our faithfulness. Although all people will be resurrected, only those who have come unto Christ and partaken of the fulness of His gospel will inherit exaltation in the celestial kingdom.

Section Five 1842-43, p.237 TPJS

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

Franktalk wrote:Is this sin any more sinful then a person who marries for gain and not love?

Is this act more sinful than the person who is a racist and sees the color of skin as a way to determine worth?

Thinker wrote:

Franktalk wrote:Is this sin any more sinful then a person who marries for gain and not love?

It depends on how much damage is caused.
It is utterly ridiculous to say that all sins are the same.
They arn't!
IE: To kill someone is significantly more damaging than to covet.

Thomas wrote:Quite a dilemma, huh Legion? The more you study the gospel the more you will realize you need the spirit to discern the truth. No man will take you there.

Section Five 1842-43, p.237 TPJS

President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

The connection to heaven must be made. There is much disagreement within the scriptures and the words of prophets.

Thinker wrote: Frank,
I understand and agree that we need to love others, but it seems we define love differently.
I define love based on hoping and striving for what is best (live & learn) - based on truth.
Is it best to put teen boys who admit to practicing homosexual fetishes, sleeping next to other boys?
No, that isn't the loving thing to do, from either angle.

Christ himself unconditionally loved, but remembering the other part of the commandment (to love oneself) he also maintained boundaries.
Questions for you, Frank:
When Jesus wipped some out of the temple, was he being "all-inclusive"?
After he healed a man of demons and the man asked to come with Jesus and Jesus refused him, was Jesus being "inclusive"?
When Jesus called people out on their wickedness, was he being "inclusive"...
...or did he realize love had a more significant depth than just seeking popularity and superficially good feelings?

Thinker wrote:Jo,
The greatest of all commandments are to love God (Truth/Light) and love others as ourselves...
..."on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

Jesus didn't kiss peoples' behinds, trying to win a popularity contest & call that love.
Jesus spoke boldly about what was of God and what wasn't - and was even killed for speaking truth that others took to be hard.