LDS Freedom Forum

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The question initially on this thread was as to whether or not homosexuality was a disorder, if I am correct.

Southern Mormon,

Do you perceive that you are bound to the Law? Do you perceive that you are bound by sin?

jo

If by "bound to the law", do I feel obligated to the law and find it morally binding, then yes. Do I ever break the law? Yes. And I make amends to the extent possible. However, if by "bound" do I mean constrained, the answer is no. I find the law liberating to a great extent. The law is what enables us to be free.

This was an interesting post from 2009, on "Satan's Plan". I think this is an interesting point on "unconditional love" being the only true law.



Re: Satan's plan

Postby Rosabella » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:00 am
In the occult the whole emphasis is to return to wholeness. To remember who were were before. They believe in that state of remembering that we would do no harm to anyone and ourselves. That we would be pure and innocent if we just did not have the veil. They want people to remove the veil by altered states of consciousness. Now in saying that, Lucifer still lies and says that there is no sin for he wants us dammed as he is. But he would love it if we chose his original plan over Father's for then we truly worship him. Either way he wins. If we chose his plan and say it is better then Father's then we are like the 1/3 of the host of heaven that followed him. If do not accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ we stay in a fallen state and he wins.

It is interesting in the occult that they say the whole purpose of all the wickedness in the world is to make us realize we want the Divine Plan (Lucifer's Plan) that is all about love and being in a state of innocence. They do not teach to be wicked they teach to become pure. They say that once the people of the world realizes they are divine they will not be wicked. It is just that we live in an illusion that we must wake up from. Though they do not keep commandments like morality, just unconditional love. I think that this is a means to keep us from gaining the Holy Ghost. If we had the Holy Ghost with us and were loving one another we would be following Father.

Lucifer = end justifies the means. So I think he very well may have an ultimate goal to establish his original plan by the means of proving to us how horrible Father's plan is to live. Once we agree that the Plan of Salvation is too hard and cruel he teaches us his plan. The means to the end is then justified. He has proven all the faults Father's Plan has and wins souls to his side once again.

That is what I think is meant that the war in Heaven continues on earth. I do not see a need for Lucifer to suggest that we come here and sin all we want and all make it back. For even during the pre-mortal world we would see that that could not work for one must be pure to be before Father. But we would not see why we had to have a veil to come back to Father. The veil is what gives us the free agency to choose to be with Father or not. The lack of a veil would give us no choice.


Just something to ponder.....

SouthernMormon,

Do you believe what Rosabella wrote? What in that post ring true to you? I find that all of scripture reveals a loving God. And a God that wishes us to learn the true worth of love and to embrace the love that comes from God.

The Holy Spirit has led me to understand many things in scripture. In my life Satan has tried many times to turn me away from the path that God has placed before me. I am not perfect yet Satan does not control me.

Great thoughts Franktalk and Jo.

The world was designed, by God, to be the way it is. Lehi gives a good explanation, in 2 Nephi chpt. 2.

My view is that God is loving, but love is not stand alone. Love is an abstraction that implies certain behaviors. I agree with what Rosabella wrote. Faith without works is dead.

SouthernMormon wrote:If by "bound to the law", do I feel obligated to the law and find it morally binding, then yes.

My dear brother; Christ has already fulfilled the Law. Christ has already paid the price. Christ has already broken this bondage to physical death.

We don't need to go any further with delving into everything else you placed in your comment. At least not to meet the purpose of why I asked you such very specific questions. I will address them in general.

Whatever else you said only holds significance insofar as it is preventing you from seeing and accepting the gift of the Atonement. No one will be able to experience the Atonement until they do accept/receive this most wonderous gift. Everything else you said is your evidence of not being able to accept the work which Christ has already done on your behalf. It is your perception which needs to change so that the transformation of the Holy Ghost working with you can take place. That change will allow you to accept the gift which Christ freely gives us. Perhaps the most important aspect of accepting His gift, is accepting how His gift applies to everyone!!

Father will test us to see if we will remain faithful to things He is teaching us. The most important message He is teaching us while we are in the flesh is the Gospel message. That message is that Christ has arisen and overcome physical death. Christ has already broken those bonds. Christ fulfilled the Law---that means the rules and regulations of the Law no longer apply. Unless, of course, we can't let go of our own personal perception of being bound to them. You have declared that you are still bound to the Law, as well as the resulting need to repent of the sin associated with breaking those Laws. So, even though Christ has already done that work, you are not accepting the work He did for you. Thus, you are denying Christ.

He that has ears will hear this message. He that does not have the ears to hear this message will remain bound to both the Law and to sin and the cycle of repentance; IOW, sin - repent, sin-repent. For as long as we do not accept Christ's gift, that will be as long as it takes for us to receive our salvation. Not to worry; however, for Father is patient and long-suffering.

Moses 1:39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

And,

D&C 76:1-3

1 Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.

2 Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out.

3 His purposes fail not, neither are there any who can stay his hand.

Those bound by the Law, and thus bound to sin, are not doing God's will. God allows us to make the choice of whether or not we will accept Christ's gift of Atonement.

The reason we were given the Law in the first place was because the children of Israel were fearful and did not want to meet with God. They wanted Moses to meet with God on their behalf; and God gave them what they wanted. Moses is the one who met with God, and Moses was given the permission to write the Law. The purpose of the Law was to point the people to God. They got stuck to the Law....they became bound to it. They became bound to the Law which Law imputed sin upon them.

God sent Jesus Christ to break that bond; to show us the way to access the Grace that has always been right in front of us. If you are still bound to the Law, you are bound to the sin imputed by the Law; and you will not be able to receive Christ's gift. Until we accept that gift, we will not be able to access the Grace that is already there; and we deny Christ...the work that Christ did on our behalf.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Which sin does more damage? Breaking the Law in all of its impossible ways to try to keep it...thus causing the need to repent over and over and over again? Or not accepting Christ's gift; thus denying Christ, Himself? We make the choices; Father has given us the free agency to make them. He is patient and long-suffering. All glory to the Father!!

This hate, this judging, the desires expressed against the homosexual; these are all manifestations of our inability to do God's will. These are manifestations of not accepting Christ and His gift of Atonement.

Love,

jo

Thank you for your kind post. However, I will once again say simply this - my view is we are (1) Love God (2) Love fellow man. I do not see why, strictly as civil legal punishment, the death penalty is unacceptable. I know the Puritans in Mass. (~1630 to 1730) used the death penalty for murder, rape, petty treason, home invasion, sodomy, bestiality, blasphemy and adultery. They did not ALWAYS use it in each case, but it was a licit punishment. The Quakers who settled Pennsylvania, were amongst the first who opposed the death penalty (except for murder) but they had VERY severe punishments for homosexual sodomy - castration and life imprisonment with weekly flogging.
I will leave off discussion of the law at this point, if you want to continue to write on it, more power to you. I agree I should be more God-centered rather then law-centered, however, I would also like to point out that a lot of the time, sin can put a degree of separation between man and God, that makes it hard for said persons to maintain faith - and I think this is definitely true for many / most homosexuals.

SouthernMormon wrote:Thank you for your kind post. However, I will once again say simply this - my view is we are (1) Love God (2) Love fellow man. I do not see why, strictly as civil legal punishment, the death penalty is unacceptable. I know the Puritans in Mass. (~1630 to 1730) used the death penalty for murder, rape, petty treason, home invasion, sodomy, bestiality, blasphemy and adultery. They did not ALWAYS use it in each case, but it was a licit punishment. The Quakers who settled Pennsylvania, were amongst the first who opposed the death penalty (except for murder) but they had VERY severe punishments for homosexual sodomy - castration and life imprisonment with weekly flogging.
I will leave off discussion of the law at this point, if you want to continue to write on it, more power to you. I agree I should be more God-centered rather then law-centered, however, I would also like to point out that a lot of the time, sin can put a degree of separation between man and God, that makes it hard for said persons to maintain faith - and I think this is definitely true for many / most homosexuals.

I very much appreciate your input, as well.

Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters. The good news is:

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Even when we die by sword because we raised the sword against another or others (as in time of war, or to protect ourself or loved ones, etc.), we need not fear that death of the body....even if God is the one who sanctions that physical death as part of the punishment of dying by the sword because we raised the sword against others.

We can look at physical death which is waged on a large scale. War is still going on; perhaps as a result of war itself. IOW, mankind keeps raising the sword; and, as result, there is still war. The anti-Nephi-Lehies got it right. They ended the cycle of dying by the sword by burying their weapons of war. If you really make the effort to wrap your head around what this looks like, you can make your head hurt.

Here is something for the readers to ponder and get our thinking juices going: John the Baptist was killed by the sword. Joseph Smith was killed by the sword (though in this instance by bullets). Jesus of Nazareth was killed by the sword (though in this instance by crucifixion). We can take this outside the realm of "religion"....Abraham Lincoln was killed by the sword. Gosh, history is filled with those who died by the sword where they did not raise the sword. It is happening right now. You may want to take some Advil as you think on these things.

Love,

jo

jo1952 wrote:
Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters.

I'm not sure how you came to reach this conclusion, but not only is it illogical but it's also contradicted by the scriptures. Just like there are those who never raised a hand in violence who die to violence, there are also violent people who live to die of natural causes. There are numerous historical examples of this I could cite.

Furthermore there are scriptural examples. The Nephites raised their weapons against the Lamanites in defense of their homes on numerous occasions. Their cause was just, and after they won they let the Lamanites go after swearing an oath not to come against them again, and then they knew peace for a time. I would imagine many of the brave Nephites who defended their land went on to live full lives and die of old age.

I assume you reached your conclusion from the common phrase "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." That phrase makes sense, since people who live violent lives, ie solve all their problems through violence, have a hard time escaping such a lifestyle and eventually it comes around to finish them off. This has nothing to do with righteous men and women defending themselves from aggression.

God never told anyone they would die if they had to kill to defend themselves or their loved ones. He never would. Trying to promote such a wrongheaded mindset will serve no other purpose but to make people afraid to defend themselves and so even more under the control of the evil and conspiring men who seek to control us.

Fairminded wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters.

I'm not sure how you came to reach this conclusion, but not only is it illogical but it's also contradicted by the scriptures. Just like there are those who never raised a hand in violence who die to violence, there are also violent people who live to die of natural causes. There are numerous historical examples of this I could cite.

Furthermore there are scriptural examples. The Nephites raised their weapons against the Lamanites in defense of their homes on numerous occasions. Their cause was just, and after they won they let the Lamanites go after swearing an oath not to come against them again, and then they knew peace for a time. I would imagine many of the brave Nephites who defended their land went on to live full lives and die of old age.

I assume you reached your conclusion from the common phrase "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." That phrase makes sense, since people who live violent lives, ie solve all their problems through violence, have a hard time escaping such a lifestyle and eventually it comes around to finish them off. This has nothing to do with righteous men and women defending themselves from aggression.

God never told anyone they would die if they had to kill to defend themselves or their loved ones. He never would. Trying to promote such a wrongheaded mindset will serve no other purpose but to make people afraid to defend themselves and so even more under the control of the evil and conspiring men who seek to control us.

There is room for every choice we make. There is room for every story told in scripture. You are correct in that there are so many different types of examples. All of those examples are giving us pieces of Truth...to help us to understand the Truths being taught. They are all just parts of the big picture. They are telling us that even in the diversity of the stories, Jesus' teachings are Truth. When Jesus gives a teaching, it is NOT COMMON. Though, man is quick to gloss over them and not take them literally. If they don't understand them, they are placed into a category of some kind of nebulous worth. Funny...on the other side of the coin, people are quick to take literally things where were meant to be symbolic. However, it is Jesus' teachings that we should look to first. Seek ye FIRST the Kingdom of God. In order to understand the stories told in scripture, seek God first in order to be able to understand them or their purpose.

Well, Jesus was the kingdom of God while He walked the earth for those who got to follow Him. Take what He taught first; and then use His teaching as a filtering lense to see everything that is presented in scripture. That is why I also have pointed to other of Christ's direct teachings...others revealed directly by the Lord to Joseph Smith. Such as Moses 1:39 and D&C 76:1-3. Joseph received those directly from God. None of these three teachings were stories being related; or examples being given. They were actual teachings. NONE were COMMON. To see and understand the stories, we need to use the teachings. None of Christ's teachings are lies. Just because we may not be able to yet see how everything works, we ARE able to see more and more as we are ready to receive. In fact He also taught in D&C 76:2 Great is his wisdom, marvelous are his ways, and the extent of his doings none can find out. Why then limit His ways by your own imagination? If we close our minds to receive only what others are telling us, the Holy Spirit is not going to force Truth on us. Mysteries unfold as our spiritual birthing process progresses. We even determine our own readiness. Anywhere we happen to be, is still a part of our own personal journey.

I would offer that you take a step back and try to use what Jesus taught in order to make sense of everything else. I said it would make your head hurt. If it were easy, God wouldn't need to keep teaching the same things over and over again. People would get it. They would no longer be bound to the Law and the sin imputed by the Law which Christ has ALREADY FULFILLED. They would be able to receive Christ's free gift; no longer bound by sin. You are adding to Jesus' teaching by assigning parameters to it in order for you to be able to make sense of everything you are seeing which you do not yet understand.

Love,

jo

Fairminded wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters.

I'm not sure how you came to reach this conclusion, but not only is it illogical but it's also contradicted by the scriptures. Just like there are those who never raised a hand in violence who die to violence, there are also violent people who live to die of natural causes. There are numerous historical examples of this I could cite.

Furthermore there are scriptural examples. The Nephites raised their weapons against the Lamanites in defense of their homes on numerous occasions. Their cause was just, and after they won they let the Lamanites go after swearing an oath not to come against them again, and then they knew peace for a time. I would imagine many of the brave Nephites who defended their land went on to live full lives and die of old age.

I assume you reached your conclusion from the common phrase "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." That phrase makes sense, since people who live violent lives, ie solve all their problems through violence, have a hard time escaping such a lifestyle and eventually it comes around to finish them off. This has nothing to do with righteous men and women defending themselves from aggression.

God never told anyone they would die if they had to kill to defend themselves or their loved ones. He never would. Trying to promote such a wrongheaded mindset will serve no other purpose but to make people afraid to defend themselves and so even more under the control of the evil and conspiring men who seek to control us.

This common phrase was first uttered by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26:52

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

It is also a warning given in Revelation.

Revelation 13: 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I was pretty worldly just a few years back so I have gone through some major changes in just the last few years. When I became a Christian I was also someone who loved science and the theories of man. I tried to reconcile scripture and science for a couple of years. You should see the posts I did on scientific theories and the stack of books I read on many subjects. But one day I figured out all of science is like a dictionary, it all rest on a bunch of interconnected definitions and in the case of science theories as well. At some level we just don't know how things work. There are boundaries we can't go past. Almost like the universe is designed that way. So I gave up on science and concentrated on scripture as truth. I found I could study scholars but they were all over the place in their interpretations. So I gave up on them. Then one day I was reading Romans for the zillionth time and it hit me. I needed this Holy Ghost to guide me since I can't figure out scripture by myself and scholars are a waste of time. So I studied everything in scripture dealing with the Holy Spirit. It did not take long for me to realize that I was the problem because i was attached to the world. So I took a leap of faith and slowly the Spirit of God guided me to scriptural discernment. The start of which was very confusing because i was led to things I just knew were not true. But my faith was strong and I stayed with it. Then I hit a point where I received enough to hit critical mass. The scriptures unfolded before me and I could read some sections that I was completely blind to before. It was amazing. Of course trying to share this understanding with others for the most part goes nowhere. We must all seek and find and obtain the guide. But one of the things I found early on was reading scripture with the idea that God loves us all often opened scripture. More and more things opened and I found I understood the God of the Old Testament.

I am telling you this history to give you some background as to why I believe in unconditional love and salvation. The exact mechanics as to why I feel that way is not important. What is important is when i say that the law is but a stepping stone on the progression in the plan of salvation. The plan has been unfolding since before the universe was created. It is all being done because God loves us and wishes us to learn many lessons. He wishes to teach us what works and what does not. What is helpful in becoming a son or daughter of God. And of course how best to exist with each other. The entire universe was created for this reason. The entire plan was implemented for this reason. We live in a created universe that is patterned in a way that we live the message that God wishes us to know. It is no accident that the laws cause conflict. It is no accident that we have seasons. It is no accident we grow old and die. It is no accident we suffer and give comfort to others. Everything has a reason and everything is for our benefit. Once you start to see this you start to place things in perspective. So in the case of homosexuals, it is all in the plan like everything else. If we deal with it with hate and judgement we fall back. If we deal with it with love and compassion we do well. It is that simple.

Franktalk wrote: Everything has a reason and everything is for our benefit. Once you start to see this you start to place things in perspective. So in the case of homosexuals, it is all in the plan like everything else. If we deal with it with hate and judgement we fall back. If we deal with it with love and compassion we do well. It is that simple.

Amen...life in general, and especially the Spirit have taught me this as well. Not only is it that simple...it is most desirable above all other things, and the most joyous to the soul.

Dannyk wrote:

Franktalk wrote: Everything has a reason and everything is for our benefit. Once you start to see this you start to place things in perspective. So in the case of homosexuals, it is all in the plan like everything else. If we deal with it with hate and judgement we fall back. If we deal with it with love and compassion we do well. It is that simple.

Amen...life in general, and especially the Spirit have taught me this as well. Not only is it that simple...it is most desirable above all other things, and the most joyous to the soul.

And when you feel yourself changing and you start to see with new eyes and hear with new ears you know inside you have found a truth of God.

Praise God for the wonders He has placed before us. May we all see through the eyes of Jesus.

Thomas wrote:

Fairminded wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters.

I'm not sure how you came to reach this conclusion, but not only is it illogical but it's also contradicted by the scriptures. Just like there are those who never raised a hand in violence who die to violence, there are also violent people who live to die of natural causes. There are numerous historical examples of this I could cite.

Furthermore there are scriptural examples. The Nephites raised their weapons against the Lamanites in defense of their homes on numerous occasions. Their cause was just, and after they won they let the Lamanites go after swearing an oath not to come against them again, and then they knew peace for a time. I would imagine many of the brave Nephites who defended their land went on to live full lives and die of old age.

I assume you reached your conclusion from the common phrase "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." That phrase makes sense, since people who live violent lives, ie solve all their problems through violence, have a hard time escaping such a lifestyle and eventually it comes around to finish them off. This has nothing to do with righteous men and women defending themselves from aggression.

God never told anyone they would die if they had to kill to defend themselves or their loved ones. He never would. Trying to promote such a wrongheaded mindset will serve no other purpose but to make people afraid to defend themselves and so even more under the control of the evil and conspiring men who seek to control us.

This common phrase was first uttered by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26:52

52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

It is also a warning given in Revelation.

Revelation 13: 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Thank you, Thomas. It is food for thought to ponder the rest of the verse in Revelation 13:9...."Here is the patience and the faith of the saints"!! How do you see this?

Love,

jo

Thomas wrote:

SouthernMormon wrote:Christ did not advocate repealing the death penalty for adultery - he was saying "he without sin" referring to the SPECIFIC sin of adultery. After all, it would be totally unjust for adulterers to execute another adulterer while putting on a face of righteousness. If you take seriously the notion that non-sinners can not punish anyone, again, let me repeat - is ANY civil government, or punishment, legitimate?

I really don't think everyone in the crowd, with Jesus, was guilty of adultery. The point Christ was trying to make is that the Pharisees were hypocrites. They judged others because their sins were different. All are guilty of sin. The requirement to enter heaven is perfection. Are you perfect? If so you can point your finger at others. If not remove the beam from your own eye.

I disagree. I think Jesus' teachings are being twisted here. Though I do agree that the Pharisees were hypocrites, not just sinners.

Franktalk wrote:Many may read my words and think that I am for allowing all forms of evil to go about unpunished in society. This is not so. There are plenty of worldly people out there who are police and judges. I must allow those things of Caesar to be done by Caesar. But my focus should be towards God and not the structures of man.

So we live in this world but should not be of this world.

Will these things happen in "a better society"? Will people who do these things be alive to live in such a society, say like, during the Millenium? Why or why not?

jo1952 wrote:It appears that there are those who are still focusing on the Law which the Prophet Moses gave to the people when they were too fearful to meet directly with God. They are not yet ready to receive what Jesus taught. It is not recognized that Jesus did away with the Law of Moses. They are still bound to the Law. As such, they have not progressed any further than the children of Israel whom Moses led out of physical captivity. While we are still stuck to the world and the worldly Law, we are unable to accept what Jesus' physical death did for us spiritually. This can be seen through the inability of those who are content to persecute those whom they perceive to be wicked and abominable; they want to execute them. Christ forgave those who were executing His innocent body. We are busy judging others and desirous to kill them; while Christ asked Father to forgive those who were busy killing Him. We cannot receive Christ's gift of the Atonement while we are attached to the Law.

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Love,

jo

Who are you accusing of wanting to seek out and execute homosexuals?
Love to you too.

Dannyk wrote:

Franktalk wrote: Everything has a reason and everything is for our benefit. Once you start to see this you start to place things in perspective. So in the case of homosexuals, it is all in the plan like everything else. If we deal with it with hate and judgement we fall back. If we deal with it with love and compassion we do well. It is that simple.

Amen...life in general, and especially the Spirit have taught me this as well. Not only is it that simple...it is most desirable above all other things, and the most joyous to the soul.

Isn't it amazing that once we are able to see a Truth it really does work out to be very simple. It is our perception of things....our attachment to the world which blinds us to what is right there in front of us.

We are only still bound to the Law and to the sin it imputes upon us because we perceive that we are still bound to it. We cannot see the very simple Truth of the Gospel message. Christ has already fulfilled the Law which we are bound to. We are bound to it because we perceive that we are bound to it. Our perception fools us. Christ has already paid the price of sin we are still bound to...so we keep repenting---sin and repent---sin and repent. The real repentance is to simply turn to God so that we can accept the gift of Christ's Atonement. When we are able to accept/receive His gift, we will find that we are no longer bound to the Law. We will find ourselves outside of the Law. Paul described this beautifully here:

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

Paul was outside of the Law. He was no longer bound to it or to the sin it used to impute on him. He had received Christ's gift. He was using all of his ministerial energies to try to teach others how to see and be able to receive Christ's Atonement. While we are in a state of not being able to receive Christ's gift, Christ cannot profess us to Father.

We just need to see.

Love,

jo

Franktalk wrote:

Dannyk wrote:

Franktalk wrote: Everything has a reason and everything is for our benefit. Once you start to see this you start to place things in perspective. So in the case of homosexuals, it is all in the plan like everything else. If we deal with it with hate and judgement we fall back. If we deal with it with love and compassion we do well. It is that simple.

Amen...life in general, and especially the Spirit have taught me this as well. Not only is it that simple...it is most desirable above all other things, and the most joyous to the soul.

And when you feel yourself changing and you start to see with new eyes and hear with new ears you know inside you have found a truth of God.

Praise God for the wonders He has placed before us. May we all see through the eyes of Jesus.

Please tell me, anyone, about Captain Moroni.

Fairminded wrote:

jo1952 wrote:
Anyone who raises the sword against another will die by the sword. There are no parameters.

I'm not sure how you came to reach this conclusion, but not only is it illogical but it's also contradicted by the scriptures. Just like there are those who never raised a hand in violence who die to violence, there are also violent people who live to die of natural causes. There are numerous historical examples of this I could cite.

Furthermore there are scriptural examples. The Nephites raised their weapons against the Lamanites in defense of their homes on numerous occasions. Their cause was just, and after they won they let the Lamanites go after swearing an oath not to come against them again, and then they knew peace for a time. I would imagine many of the brave Nephites who defended their land went on to live full lives and die of old age.

I assume you reached your conclusion from the common phrase "He who lives by the sword will die by the sword." That phrase makes sense, since people who live violent lives, ie solve all their problems through violence, have a hard time escaping such a lifestyle and eventually it comes around to finish them off. This has nothing to do with righteous men and women defending themselves from aggression.

God never told anyone they would die if they had to kill to defend themselves or their loved ones. He never would. Trying to promote such a wrongheaded mindset will serve no other purpose but to make people afraid to defend themselves and so even more under the control of the evil and conspiring men who seek to control us.

+1. The scriptures, as you have said, give plenty of righteous examples.

SouthernMormon wrote:Thank you for your kind post. However, I will once again say simply this - my view is we are (1) Love God (2) Love fellow man. I do not see why, strictly as civil legal punishment, the death penalty is unacceptable. I know the Puritans in Mass. (~1630 to 1730) used the death penalty for murder, rape, petty treason, home invasion, sodomy, bestiality, blasphemy and adultery. They did not ALWAYS use it in each case, but it was a licit punishment. The Quakers who settled Pennsylvania, were amongst the first who opposed the death penalty (except for murder) but they had VERY severe punishments for homosexual sodomy - castration and life imprisonment with weekly flogging.
I will leave off discussion of the law at this point, if you want to continue to write on it, more power to you. I agree I should be more God-centered rather then law-centered, however, I would also like to point out that a lot of the time, sin can put a degree of separation between man and God, that makes it hard for said persons to maintain faith - and I think this is definitely true for many / most homosexuals.

I agree that being God-centered means being law-centered. If you love God, you'll show it by striving to be obedient.
The homosexual movement is a nice =; to both God and man.