Leaving the LDS Church = Atheism

[Thinker]

I think our beliefs can lead one to a certain way of thinking that can make you wonder about God.

I have a friend who left the church. Among other things, he said he wouldn't be able to become like our God as we are told we can. He said he would be too tempted to help in certain situations, whereas our God does not. He cited a case a few years back near hear.

An animal named Joseph Duncan was driving down the freeway in Idaho and saw some kids playing at a house near the woods. Came back later, tied up the parents and older brother and beat them to death with a hammer. Took the young boy and girl up in the mountains and raped the boy and girl, tortured and killed the boy and videotaped it all. After a few weeks he came back to town and was caught.
My friend said as God he would not be able to watch such without helping, as he would with his own children. So he concluded that God either isn't there, or is too busy, or doesn't care, or something.

I asked about the feelings of the Spirit he had received, and he said those were just emotions, like the good feelings he gets at a game when his team is winning. He said we feel good when our survival needs are being satisfied, like when our team/army is winning, or we bond with a group.

I asked about miracles, like healings, and he said sometimes people get better, but often times even after blessings promising healings, people don't get better, but we don't talk about that. He said you have to look at all the cases, not just the ones that support your belief.

Anyway, can't say that I had a good answer for him.

This is a tricky thing to answer.
When we think of the extremes of suffering at the hands of other people... we don't want free agency, we want God to DO SOMETHING!
But what about when we are the cause of someone's suffering (to a lesser degree of course) - do we want God to tie our hands or otherwise force us to stop what we're doing?
Is that realistic? Was that the plan of how we learn and spiritually progress?

Learning about extreme poverty - people dying just because they don't have enough food or clean water... physical and sexual abuse -sexual trafficking of young girls... or more locally the mass murders of thousands of children every year through abortion... This all makes me so sad. So sad, I can't think of it too much or I get depressed, and what help is that?
It seems that there is a balance that is challenging but in need of maintaining constantly - to love others AND love ourselves.

God is LOVE.
Some people's idea and expression of love is sick, but it's still one of infinite expression of God.
God is in all - in every person - even those who commit terrible things.
We are all children of God. We are all sinners and cause suffering.
IMO, our main purpose in life is to learn to love better - to love deeply, completely.
Love can involve many different forms of expression, depending on what each moment divinely asks.
Love is hoping & striving for what is best (what we think is best) through trial and error - active faith.

[Thinker]

I would like to share this video It isn't an LDS but a pastor from another church. Its basic stuff but sometimes we just need to get back to basics. towards the end deals with what you are talking about:

Great message - especially about loving others, being aware of others and sincerely wanting to know what they might be going through.

Once, in church, it was after the meetings - and I noticed a woman who had this concerned look on her face.
I came up to her and asked if anything's wrong. She said that morning she found out one of her family members died.
We talked for a bit and hopefully helped her know I cared.

There are so many opportunities to show love - and everyone needs love.
Everyone has a story to tell. Recently, we were about to call a cab, but one just came by and so we got in and had the most amazing talk with this guy. He had a story you wouldn't believe! What a man! He wanted to have coffee or (hot chocolate ) with us but then when he dropped us off somebody asked him for a ride.

Lots of opportunities to love!
I'm not perfect, but I hope to be a good friend, even if a new friend.
So, if anybody ever wants to chat, feel free to PM me.

[Shophar]

My sister left the church because a few members treated her badly. When Jesus lived upon the earth even two of his own apostles who lived their lives along side the Savior betrayed him. But did that mean that Christs teaching were not true, or that the gospel was not true? No. Of course not. My sister somehow felt the whole church was flawed just because of a few wayward members. My sister and her husband began drinking, smoking, having extra marital affairs and my sisters health began to fail within a couple of years of leaving the church. They are now divorced and thankfully at least her husband came back into the church. I'm still praying for her. Even though her social life has costed her a lot, spiritually and health wise too, she still loves her lifestyle a lot. She nearly died a couple times last year, because she has some kind of a blood/Anemia type disease. Smoking cigarettes, pot and drinking only makes it worst. My fear is she is going to find out these life/spiritual lessons the hard way and it will cost her life. I've never given up on a miracle though. My sister is still a christian, but doesn't belong to any particular faith.
My Grandfather on the other had turned all out atheist, after being Christian (Baptist I think) for most of his life. It all happened really fast after my grandmother died of cancer in 1980. He started going out with multiple women and got into a really bad porn addition.He's married again now, but his new wife is really miserable and depressed much of the time. He doesn't treat her well. She's not too happy about his porn addiction either. He was very vocal about his atheist views for many years, but now that he's in his 80's he's become more quiet about it. I pray for him still and hope that he will treat his wife better. She's such a sweet woman, much like my grandma was. I think he became an atheist for lifestyle choices.

[drjme]

My sister left the church because a few members treated her badly. When Jesus lived upon the earth even two of his own apostles who lived their lives along side the Savior betrayed him. But did that mean that Christs teaching were not true, or that the gospel was not true? No. Of course not. My sister somehow felt the whole church was flawed just because of a few wayward members. My sister and her husband began drinking, smoking, having extra marital affairs and my sisters health began to fail within a couple of years of leaving the church. They are now divorced and thankfully at least her husband came back into the church. I'm still praying for her. Even though her social life has costed her a lot, spiritually and health wise too, she still loves her lifestyle a lot. She nearly died a couple times last year, because she has some kind of a blood/Anemia type disease. Smoking cigarettes, pot and drinking only makes it worst. My fear is she is going to find out these life/spiritual lessons the hard way and it will cost her life. I've never given up on a miracle though. My sister is still a christian, but doesn't belong to any particular faith.

Understanding why people do this helps you see their perspective and enables you to help them more than you know. Her story sounds like the typical person who was living was living under legalism, laws and viewed the gospel as a set of controlling rules instead of a path to freedom in the saviour. Now if you are not strong willed, brainwashed by living the culture and being so absorbed in it that you are happy living that lifestyle whether or not Christ is in it, or alternatively she hasn't received a confirmation from Christ that she is in the right path, they usually think they have two options. Let the dissonance settle in, or they rebel against the controlling, legalistic rules that have bound them for so long. And boy, do they rebel. Generally they don't see it as rebelling against Christ because they haven't personally experienced him. They are rebelling against an institution that they feel has controlled them. You know it takes an extremely extremely dark person to go against an absolute undeniable witness of the saviour. Remember the scriptures call that Antichrist. I would contend that It is very, very hard for someone to deny Christ. And so if they are not an outright satan worshipper, then they are just lost, a prodigal son even.
So instead of praying for them to return to church, pray for them to have an encounter with Christ. Pray that the father will give you an unreasonable measure of His love, that you may pour it out on her.
I like to think of it this way. You never want to go back to where you were. She doesn't want to either. Why would she want to go back to the control and rules that she rebelled against. You want to go forward in a new phase not go "back". Forward with a renewed mind given by the power of Christ, where the rules aren't control, they are just a secondary thing, to Him.
Because when you catch the saviour you not only fight to stay with Him, but He fights to stay with you too.

My Grandfather on the other had turned all out atheist, after being Christian (Baptist I think) for most of his life. It all happened really fast after my grandmother died of cancer in 1980. He started going out with multiple women and got into a really bad porn addition.He's married again now, but his new wife is really miserable and depressed much of the time. He doesn't treat her well. She's not too happy about his porn addiction either. He was very vocal about his atheist views for many years, but now that he's in his 80's he's become more quiet about it. I pray for him still and hope that he will treat his wife better. She's such a sweet woman, much like my grandma was. I think he became an atheist for lifestyle choices.

Ok you say he only turned away, when the whole reason he lived, died. the love of his life, his beautiful reason for caring, has left him. Depression is a horrible horrible place that veils the mind, it can go for years without someone realising they even have it. My experience with it is the body deals with pain and stress by making you numb. This numbness not only removes the pain and stress by cramming it somewhere deep down, but it also removes the ability to feel good emotions as well. So you end up feeling like an empty emotionless shell, because to experience life is to experience emotion.
Now looking at the porn addiction, I am assuming it is his attempt to feel SOMETHING. Even if it is a temporary feeling of pain. A little rush of excitement followed by a lot of guilt and pain. It's like small children if they don't get enough attention, they will act naughty just to get bad attention, smacks etc because its them trying to get something they need even if its not the right kind of attention they need. Same with the porn stuff, people in depression usually do what it takes to feel something, even if what they feel is bad, at least it is feeling something.

Always looks at everything that is going on instead of just focusing on " they left church because they hated it and don't want to know Christ." When you think this you've spoken condemnation over them, without putting any effort in to know or understand what is going on in their heads. I'm not saying what I've written above IS how it is, but it just an example of opening the mind and looking at them as a poor broken soul in need of love instead of an atheist Christ hater to be ostracised and left to themselves.

[Rose Garden]

That was beautiful, and so true. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

[eric]

My Grandfather on the other had turned all out atheist, after being Christian (Baptist I think) for most of his life. It all happened really fast after my grandmother died of cancer in 1980. He started going out with multiple women and got into a really bad porn addition.He's married again now, but his new wife is really miserable and depressed much of the time. He doesn't treat her well. She's not too happy about his porn addiction either. He was very vocal about his atheist views for many years, but now that he's in his 80's he's become more quiet about it. I pray for him still and hope that he will treat his wife better. She's such a sweet woman, much like my grandma was. I think he became an atheist for lifestyle choices.

I am pretty convinced that alot of people become "athiest" so they can wallow in sin and not have worry about "non-existent" and forthcoming judgments of God. All other excuses are hollow.... Submit to the will of the Father, or die (spiritually speaking). Its all very simple. It comes down to being stripped of all pride and having humility.

[Thinker]

Always looks at everything that is going on instead of just focusing on " they left church because they hated it and don't want to know Christ." When you think this you've spoken condemnation over them, without putting any effort in to know or understand what is going on in their heads.

Excellent point.
There are many reasons why people change their minds about things.
I've communicated with many former "TBM"s ("True believing Mormons") who became atheist or agnostic. The reasoning varied a lot... although I did notice a trend in blindly & illogically following just a different herd - going from not supporting killing children through abortion, to supporting it... going from supporting marriage between a man & a woman to supporting to redefining it based on sexual fetishes.

For a while, I wasn't sure about many spiritual ideas. I really wanted to know the truth of all things and didn't want to be fooled. I wanted to have an unshakable testimony, no matter what information was presented. (I do have a stronger evolving testimony - but it's not what I thought it would look like.) Even when I was young, I questioned things a lot... Then I realized that religion is more man-made than strictly of God. It's still has great potential for good, but a lot of it is how people translate it - either literally, or spiritually.

In a study, those who had no religious involvement & those were were extremely religiously involved did worst in physicaly healing... Those who were moderately involved religiously, did best. Moderation in all things! One extreme or the other, we tend to get off balance.

[Rock34]

The act of accepting the LDS faith pretty much means you reject almost all aspects of other faiths. Once you drop Mormonism, you pretty much have nothing left. Well that and atheism is very en vogue these days. It's a gateway to more worldly success, where once you had to claim to be Protestant or Catholic to be successful, now atheism is where it's at. The Dawkins Spaghetti Monster club is rapidly growing.

[Shophar]

The main prescription to atheism that I will never understand is the reality of hopelessness. All HOPE is extinguished, dreams sunk, good and bad memories erased after death. We die and go to a place where nothing exists, which if you ask me is still a place. But in that place we are no more. We are nothing after our last earthly breaths. Really, we never were anything to begin with then. No more feeling, thinking, touching, smiling, holding, laughing... remembering. Its a black void of nothingness forever and ever without end or rescue, or even consciousnesses. SIGN ME the HELL up!!!
Anyways, you get my point. WHY conjure up such a place? Ideological Empires of philosophical jargon have been erected around such erroneous thoughts. The funny thing is that christian's are the ones accused of being the storytellers. One fine day the athestist will know that they are sons and daughters of a very real Father and Mother in Heaven and that God loves every cell in our beings, even if we imperfectly reject his existence.

[Rose Garden]

You know, there have been times in life when I just wanted to cease to exist. I can see how believing that might be appealing to some.

[sadie_Mormon]

I think this is true - a lot of times.
In a way, our black-or-white bi-polar thinking in the church sets it up - it's either true or it isn't.
In reality, it's partly true & partly false because it's made up of imperfect people like us, who are not 100% good nor 100% evil.

I also think that "you can take the person out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the person."
And yes, our church has many characteristics of a cult, but so do Athiest groups.

Great point. Now, do you believe that there are those who have the predisposition of the "cult" mentality? The "black-or-white bi-polar thinking" as you called it. I think Borderline Personality would better define the cult mentality as they are very black or white in their thinking, but that's just me

I think many would agree that the "this is true or nothing is true" mentality is how the great majority of members think. Does this type of thinking make us more judgmental of others (whether knowingly or unknowingly)?

[Benjamin_LK]

Benjamin_LK wrote:
What I have generally found is that plenty of what is science nowadays is flattery to people to have faith in earthly institutions. Plenty of scientific data derived from nuclear bomb tests, for instance, show that within a year, the difference in radioactivity is hardly noticeable, largely due to the dispersion from the bomb, accelerated radioactive decay, and the incredibly short half-life of the actual fallout itself, yet popular culture and some flattering figures, notoriously including Carl Sagan, have put forth the idea of the nuclear winter, or the fallout lasting for thousands of years, and this is hardly questioned. There also is the hardly questioned notion that nuclear war would cover all land surface on Earth, again made on misleading calculations and assumptions, yet it's treated as factual enough that pretty much the old civil defense programs and emergency plans for a nuclear attack largely aren't used much anymore. Even though the possibility of a real nuclear attack does exist, with all the nations out there, not just America and the EU vs. Russia, that are armed with nuclear weapons to a significant extent. Again, I am not going to draw some odd conclusions about it, but let's get real, law and order would be gone in a nuclear Armageddon, but likely the survivors would rebuild nations over time (Though, IMHO, such a reconstruction would be the establishment of Zion)

A lttle off topic here but nuclear winter is not based on fallout. It is the effects of smoke and debris filling the atomosphere and blocking out the sun. One volcanno can change the weather quite dramatically. Joesph Smith's family farm failed in I think 1814 or 1816 because of a volcano in Indoneasia. The volcano put enough ash into the air to partially block the sun. The result was snow in July, in Vermont and much of the United States and Europe. Many people died from crop failures, especially in Eastern Europe.

A modern nuclear bomb can put a crater into the ground, one mile deep and serveral miles in diameter. All the material is pulverized and hurled high into the air. Some of the finer particles would take ten years or more to decend back down. On top of that the heat produced instantly sets everything on fire, within a thirty mile radius. All buildings trees etc. start on fire. The nuclear winter senario is based on several hundred nukes going off over the planet. It would start a fire storm that would ignite much of the worlds forests and buildings, filling the atomosphere with smoke. It would also be much like the indoneasian volcano thrusting all the dirt into the air but times that by however number of bombs, there are thousands in existence.

A nuclear winter senario is based a several hundred nukes. The effects would be a new ice age, over the nothern hemeishere. many of the elite are known to have purchased large tracts of land in the equatorial zone.

Could be part of what revelations describes for the last days.

A lot of what is described in the Last Days sounds a lot like Nuclear Weapons are involved. People hiding in caves sounds a whole lot like Fallout shelters to me. Not to mention all the military and politician Fallout Shelters, set up like sealed bank admitted to exist.

Regarding nuclear weapon use, not all nuclear weapons in stockpile can actually be used all at once. Some are ready to use. But at least official reports show that most nuclear-armed nations, even the U.S. and Russia, could only really be equipped at the ready to use a A FEW of the total, say 100 to 300. The number available at the ready is smaller, at least in the U.S. and Russia, with numerous nuke silos being decommissioned over the years, and other nuclear weapons being decommissioned. The number is also actually effectively smaller when you realize that you want to hit the same target multiple times, to ensure that the city and/or military base in question is really effectively levelled to the ground.

The best effect from volcanoes like the legendary Tambora of 1816 was perhaps more than what a few nuclear weapons would come to equal in terms of overall aerosols, but the -35 Fahrenheit figure by Carl Sagan does sound plenty exaggerated. Anyways, if they have shelter in the equator, how are they supposed to get there? Especially when the electronics and engine mechanisms of planes and ships are vulnerable via their radio receivers to the EMP, not to mention that part of the protocol developed during the Cold War is to take out satellites (yep, no more GPS) by detonating nukes in outer space.

Overall, the degree of effect of nuclear winter is quite debateable, but that leads to my next real disclaimer below:

While I may disagree with you, I will admit, like I mentioned with climate change, the power of God will factor in there somewhere, and that's the real important part that brings the climate change and nuclear winter portions into question.

[Thinker]

I think this is true - a lot of times.
In a way, our black-or-white bi-polar thinking in the church sets it up - it's either true or it isn't.
In reality, it's partly true & partly false because it's made up of imperfect people like us, who are not 100% good nor 100% evil.

I also think that "you can take the person out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the person."
And yes, our church has many characteristics of a cult, but so do Athiest groups.

Great point. Now, do you believe that there are those who have the predisposition of the "cult" mentality? The "black-or-white bi-polar thinking" as you called it. I think Borderline Personality would better define the cult mentality as they are very black or white in their thinking, but that's just me

I think many would agree that the "this is true or nothing is true" mentality is how the great majority of members think. Does this type of thinking make us more judgmental of others (whether knowingly or unknowingly)?

Thanks, Sadie.
Yes, I do think we ALL begin with the cult tendency - starting in families.
Families are a sort of cult, that require certain beliefs and standards.
When I moved out and was responsible for myself, and had a lot of decisions to make, I felt scared and alone. I can see why many people want to be led, to replace a type of parental figure - to be told what to think, what to do. IMO, "Putting off childish things" is moving on from that - showing active faith and trusting in God above people.

Often, for the sake of unity in a large group, there is black or white thinking - instead of the reality of all of the colors. (Borderline Personality does seem to have black-or-white thinking, along with other issues - kind of like a personal Post Traumatic Stress.)

I do think that black-or-white thinking involves other cognitive distortions like jumping to conclusions about others- being too quick to judge, without considering other perspectives. I personally believe that Christ consciousness involves the consideration of multiple perspectives, and thus love is much more effective because then one is able to see which, of many valid perspectives and actions would be most beneficial in a situation. The problem is that the vast majority of people seem unable to consider more than 1 perspective, which is partly why they killed people like Jesus, Martin Luther King, William Tynsdale & others who gave their lives, standing up for unpopular truth that the masses deemed as too threatening. There is a saying about how insanity is rare in individuals, but the norm in groups. Individuals don't do things that "gangs" do - individuals don't do things that the military does...

[Liberty_Agent]

It’s always bugged me when I see online people who have left the LDS church and ended up Atheist. How does one go from one extreme to the next? It’s not like they go from Mormonism to maybe Protestant or Methodist or even Universalist. They flat out don’t believe anything.

How and why does that happen for those who leave the LDS church specifically?

Once someone proposed the question if Mormonism no longer existed what group would you most align with… I answered either Orthodox Jew/Messianic, Amish, or like groups. I was floored at how many said they would be Agnostic or Atheist.

You would identify with an orthodox Jewish community? The ones that go around and throw rocks at young girls calling them, "Whores" for not covering up completely? Strange.

[Fiannan]

I think this is true - a lot of times.
In a way, our black-or-white bi-polar thinking in the church sets it up - it's either true or it isn't.
In reality, it's partly true & partly false because it's made up of imperfect people like us, who are not 100% good nor 100% evil.

I also think that "you can take the person out of the cult, but you can't take the cult out of the person."
And yes, our church has many characteristics of a cult, but so do Athiest groups.

Great point. Now, do you believe that there are those who have the predisposition of the "cult" mentality? The "black-or-white bi-polar thinking" as you called it. I think Borderline Personality would better define the cult mentality as they are very black or white in their thinking, but that's just me

I think many would agree that the "this is true or nothing is true" mentality is how the great majority of members think. Does this type of thinking make us more judgmental of others (whether knowingly or unknowingly)?

First, I am not sure of the personality disorder thing affecting Church members. Borderlines may be more predisposed to getting angry when some bishop or stake president cheats them and ruins that false idealized image so I suppose it has an effect. Psychopathic Mormons may feel there is something wrong with them when they go to fast and testimony meetings and see people cry on stage, while they cannot "feel" that emotion towards anyone but their closest family at best. People with schizotypal personality may wind up alienated from church as they think in a far more creative and independent manner than is appreciated within some LDS circles.

That said, I would actually point people to the Jungian typology tests. I have heard that the personality traits that correlate with conformity do best in traditional religious circles. I will note though that typologies like INTP, while hard to maintain as a young person in a conservative setting is often over-represented in leadership in the LDS Church. So we have leaders who are far more introspective, analytical and even esoteric in their outlook on life but a membership that is more likely to feel comfortable with rules and regulations. This is one big reason I am glad the new Sunday School curriculum style has been adopted. It actually encourages the youth who think (not a good trait in the US public school system to be sure so why not encourage it at Church?) and may help us keep the kinds of people necessary for the Church to grow and prosper.

[Fiannan]

Families are a sort of cult, that require certain beliefs and standards.

Cult and culture basically means the same thing. So yes, in a sense that is correct.

[Thinker]

...If someone comes from a family of TBM I would guess it is far worse trying to separate your life from the clan. They have to be in a really dark place in their spirituality to muster it up to leave since that would be a major link being disconnected. When I say leave I mean so extreme as to believe nothing... that no G_d exists. So much of the family is connected to the church and to separate yourself from the church would in a sense separate yourself from the family. Wouldn't that give a feeling of emptiness?

If you had someone close to you who confided in you that they no longer not only believed in the church but that there was no G_d what would you say to them? How would you respond? How would you personally feel? Do you think it would affect your relationship with that person?

That’s true - to give up something so precious as social support (THE most likely aspect in longevity) suggests that keeping it was deemed worse than parting with it. One of the worst types of betrayal is being hurt by someone you trusted - like family - which as you mentioned, often extends to a ward family. When you have been hurt like that, the common response is to distance yourself so you won’t be hurt again. Many ex-Mormon Atheists I’ve come across are very antagonistic about anything religious - especially Mormonism. Thinking about that in this context, their anger is likely masking a lot of pain.

Betrayal is part of life as, and among, human beings. Lately, I’ve wondered how to justify faith in God for some who have had horribly hellish childhoods and lives. I believe that in large part, we are God’s hands. So, ie, when one prayer to find keys gets answered, but another prayer for food for a starving child is not answered - it is because those who had power and knowledge how to help neglected it. But then, what exactly does faith in a loving God do for us - if it’s dependent on the undependable nature of humanity?

I think that God is complex - multidimensional. Think of the 3 symbols in The Wizard of Oz...

• 1) Intelligent design - irrefutable. https://youtu.be/kkGeOWYOFoA
  2) Heart/Spirit - “The kingdom of God is within you”- no matter what hardship comes, God/Creation has given us each incredible brains, minds & spirits - which can tap into the comforting & inspiringly unconditional love of God. http://www.spiritofthescripture.com/wp- ... Brain-.jpg
  3) Courage - Active faith, God is Love - we answer or fail to answer one another’s needs for love.

So, while it can really test our faith when betrayed by those who we trusted for our higher GOoD, the gratitude we can feel for the intelligent design throughout this world, our bodies & our lives - and also the spirit we can tap into when we humble ourselves to lean on God - are more dependable. But I think, especially in cases of very difficult childhoods/trauma - psych-ology (study of the soul) must be included in spirituality - for healing and establishing a firm faith in God.

Some may ask - as my good friend did - why bother going through all of that to build faith in the unconfirmed? Well, as it is we all believe many things that are not proven. Many of us have developed life traps and habits of cognitive distortions which are like fostering faith in dysfunctional spirits or forces that are hurting us. All thoughts we - even scientists or atheists - have are subjective - illusional. It makes sense to have our subjectivity work FOR us rather than against us. Why wouldn’t we want and strive for our highest GOoD possible?

[Fiannan]

Many ex-Mormon Atheists I’ve come across are very antagonistic about anything religious - especially Mormonism. Thinking about that in this context, their anger is likely masking a lot of pain.

I was listening to a talk about nihilism recently and the presenter noted that many of the upper elite of Russia in the 19th Century had become adherents to this way of thinking and that once trapped in it they wanted nothing to do with anything that presented the world in positive terms. I think this happens to people who are in any religion that gives a sense of wonder to people. If it gets dashed in some way it is not as if they will jump to another one, rather they will go into a despair and not want anything to do with any other religion. I have seen people leave the Church and become pagans or go into witchcraft, but very rarely into another Christian religion.

[Thinker]

Many ex-Mormon Atheists I’ve come across are very antagonistic about anything religious - especially Mormonism. Thinking about that in this context, their anger is likely masking a lot of pain.

I was listening to a talk about nihilism recently and the presenter noted that many of the upper elite of Russia in the 19th Century had become adherents to this way of thinking and that once trapped in it they wanted nothing to do with anything that presented the world in positive terms. I think this happens to people who are in any religion that gives a sense of wonder to people. If it gets dashed in some way it is not as if they will jump to another one, rather they will go into a despair and not want anything to do with any other religion. I have seen people leave the Church and become pagans or go into witchcraft, but very rarely into another Christian religion.

I’ve noticed that too. It makes me wonder if the most attractive aspect of (why most people go to) our church - is not the doctrine as much as the social network. Our church’s sense of community is awesome - until it hurts you - and you realize it too is conditional.

It seems like Nihilism is impossible - just people fooling themselves that they don’t really care or that meaning isn’t important. But these same people care about and feel meaning about some “illogical” experiences - like music. And we do walk & live by faith - no guarantees. Some place faith in a story that says nothing matters - eat drink and be merry etc - and others place faith in a story that like parental authority, tells them what to think, say and do. Some take bits of various stories - especially what inspires them - & creates their own idea of GOoD.

Spoiler

Like Fowler’s faith stage 5 (left side):

What’s the end result? By their fruits ye shall know them.

[captainfearnot]

How and why does that happen for those who leave the LDS church specifically?

Once someone proposed the question if Mormonism no longer existed what group would you most align with… I answered either Orthodox Jew/Messianic, Amish, or like groups. I was floored at how many said they would be Agnostic or Atheist.

Here's how I heard it explained once.

I'm a Christian. I believe in the Old and New Testaments. Let's suppose one day I become convinced that the New Testament is a hoax. Jesus never existed, or if he did he was just a wise teacher and was not the Son of God, was not resurrected, whatever. I'm no longer a Christian. Now what do I believe?

Logically, I should "revert" to Judaism. Because nothing I just found out about Jesus has any bearing on Abraham, Moses or Isaiah. I believed in them before, why wouldn't I now? I should join my fellow believers in the old patriarchs in awaiting the "true" Messiah.

And yet if you put this question to Christians, most of them realize that if they ever lost their faith in the New Testament, they would not retain their faith in the Old. They would likely turn away from the Bible altogether.

That's because an individual's faith is not structured the same way as these religions. Mormonism is built on Christianity, which is built on Judaism. If you lop off the top of the pyramid, the base should still remain. But most believers do not start out with a foundation in Judaism, to which they then add a belief that Jesus is the Messiah, and then that Joseph Smith is His prophet in the latter days.

No, in fact the reverse is true, for many Mormons. They believe in Joseph Smith first and foremost. I'm not saying they worship him, but they worship who he worshipped. They believe in who and what he believed in, because he believed in it and taught it. This is much like how we believe in Abraham and Moses and Isaiah because Jesus believed in them. Take Jesus away and a big reason for believing in the OT goes away. Likewise, take JS away and a big reason for believing in Christianity goes away.

So in a real sense Joseph Smith is the base of the pyramid for a lot of Mormons. If the main pillar of your testimony that God lives is that Joseph Smith saw him, then when you take that away you're at square one. And a lot of people who start over at square one as educated adults, evaluating the question of God's existence, find the evidence wanting.

And I think a lot of lifelong Mormons recognize this about themselves. That's why you hear people say things like if they weren't Mormon they'd be atheist. They can see the weakness in the arguments for God and religion outside of the church. That's why they consider it such a blessing that Mormonism is in their lives, because otherwise they might not buy into religion or theism at all.

Of course if you're a convert and your belief in Christianity came before Mormonism than this is less likely to be true. And even the church teaches us that our faith should be based in Jesus Christ and not anything specific to Mormonism. But I think a lot of lifelong Mormons never get there.

[Finrock]

Ya'll just carried on this conversation from five years ago like it was nothing.

-Finrock

[captainfearnot]

Ya'll just carried on this conversation from five years ago like it was nothing.

-Finrock

I didn't even notice until after I commented. I feel duped somehow.

[Thinker]

Ya'll just carried on this conversation from five years ago like it was nothing.

-Finrock

I didn't even notice until after I commented. I feel duped somehow.

Ha ha ha - best laugh in a while! Thanks! Silly one living in the past - resurrecting interesting threads from 65 months ago! Someone thanked Fiannan, sneakily knowing he’d do the dirty work... then that someone wouldn’t have to be blamed! Sneaky huh?

But really - what is time? Think of this forum in the eternal (beyond time) perspective. Here we appreciate his-story and keep memories alive!

[Durzan]

The main prescription to atheism that I will never understand is the reality of hopelessness. All HOPE is extinguished, dreams sunk, good and bad memories erased after death. We die and go to a place where nothing exists, which if you ask me is still a place. But in that place we are no more. We are nothing after our last earthly breaths. Really, we never were anything to begin with then. No more feeling, thinking, touching, smiling, holding, laughing... remembering. Its a black void of nothingness forever and ever without end or rescue, or even consciousnesses. SIGN ME the HELL up!!!
Anyways, you get my point. WHY conjure up such a place? Ideological Empires of philosophical jargon have been erected around such erroneous thoughts. The funny thing is that christian's are the ones accused of being the storytellers. One fine day the athestist will know that they are sons and daughters of a very real Father and Mother in Heaven and that God loves every cell in our beings, even if we imperfectly reject his existence.

I believe in Oblivion. I have seen it and the results of it. It takes a lot of effort and pain to get to deliberately, but it can happen through random and meaningless circumstance.

God doesn't want Oblivion for us. He fights it wherever He can; God believes in redemption and progress. Only in situations where it would be more merciful and just for someone to be returned to Oblivion would He deliberately subject a soul to that fate. Like it or not, you will find this struggle underlines the Plan of Salvation itself. Whether you know it or not, the struggle against Oblivion is and always has been one of the subtle and foundational points of existence for all the Gods. All things have their opposites, and the opposite of God is Nothing... aka total Oblivion.

[Aprhys]

Most LDS people live lives that are centered around their belief. Even more so than most other Christian denominations. Being LDS is their life. When for some reason they find that the gospel doesn't fit them anymore or has let them down it's a huge problem. Like finding out your spouse is cheating. Do you hang on to bits and pieces i.e. "new order Mormons." Or do you cut ties with the whole deal God and all. It makes sense to me.