Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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jo1952
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by jo1952 »

SkyBird wrote:
Greetings jo1952

You are exactly right... It is interesting that you were brought into the Church through the Book of Mormon:) On a spiritual/physical dimension we are instructed that:

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.
12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw."

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 14:10 - 12)

And these two churches are innately within each on of us... the fruits we manifest and personify place us in one or the other. Is good to see you are having such a wonderful journey!
SkyBird,

It is good to see you are having such a wonderful journey as well. I appreciate all that you share; it is edifying. Thank you!

Shalom,

jo

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Alighieri
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Alighieri »

Doctrine and Covenants 84:36-38

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore ball that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

Just have to pray and receive a testimony by following the Prophet.

John 7:17
17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

freedomforall
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by freedomforall »

liberty wrote:I need some help talking with my Bishop. We have been discussing how to find truth. He is pressing me to accept whatever my leaders say is a valid source of truth or to verify truth. After listening to Pres. Monson that truth is found by being obedient to the commandments, I can see my Bishop making a case that Following our leaders is a commandment. Please help with advice and references.

Thanks, HofL
First of all, one has to find out what "follow" means. Is it to walk behind our leaders every where they go, checking up on them to see if we can pick up on any sin or wrongful statement made?

Or is it to acknowledge their spiritual example and try to emulate it? To be honest, upright, Christ-like people? To know the word of God and live by it at closely as humanly possible?

After 25 pages, why is there still unanswered questions? Or is it that some of the answers are unacceptable even if they carry truth? And the verses listed above are spot on. Thanks.

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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by freedomforall »

I Testify - Ezra Taft Benson - October 1988 General Conference


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erichard
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by erichard »

Here is part of a LDS Patriarchal Blessing given some time early this year to a young lady. I will not give out who it was given to, or who gave it, but it was an authorized LDS Patriarch. I am quoting it exactly as it is written.

“You have a great intelligent mind, but, you will never become more intelligent than the Prophet of God. You will always raise your hand to sustain Him in knowing that He is God’s spokesman, and you will know that He receives revelation. Even though you might be great in your academics, you will always know that His wisdom and knowledge supersedes yours. You will always be obedient. You will always sustain the living Prophet.”

I find this not only wrong, but deeply evil.

It is clearly an effort to convince this young lady, who is in fact quite intelligent, that she must never question in the least the church Prophet (and be extension all and everything in the church supporting the Prophet).

That it is a "done-deal" that the church Prophet should automatically always be trusted and should automatically always be sustained. But this "done-deal" doctrine is not scriptural. Read this: http://www.lds-awakening.info/Publications/Issue3.pdf.

I realize that those who promote the "done-deal doctrine" (as I call it) feel they are defending the church and the gospel. But what they are really doing is much more human. It is simply the politics of men.

Notice that when the quote above uses pronouns in referring back to the church Prophet that they are always capitalized. (He, Him) This is usually only done with pronouns when referring back to Diety.

In other words, this blessing is openly promoting idolatry. Men in the flesh with blood in their veins (the only kind of men there are) are pointing the finger at one of themselves saying "He" should be trusted and obeyed like Diety.

In the Old Testament Idolatry is equated with Adultery. Those who were spiritually "married" to the Lord by covenant were off worshipping false gods. So it was a spiritual adultery.

So it is fair to say the above part of this blessing is advocating "pure unadulterated adultery" in a spiritual sense. It could not be more openly idolatrous.

If it is a sin to not sustain the Prophet, then this option should never be given members. The fact that it is given to them proves it cannot automatically be a sin to not sustain him.

D&C 107:81-84 gives instructions for having a trial over the President of the church or one of his counselors and possibly remove him. JST Mark 9:40-48 teaches that every man (and a woman is mankind too) must stand or fall by himself, and not for another-- teaching that even the eye of the body (the church Prophet) can fail him.

The mere fact that the D&C law given to the church teaches that all things are to be done by common consent proves the incorrectness of the above blessing. This blessing is trying to replace the D&C law (a government by law) with a government by men. "Don't worry about the revelations in the D&C, just totally trust the church leaders."

I believe the Lord will not put up with this in His restored church much longer. The long prophesied cleansing of His house could come soon. See D&C 84:54-59 and 2BC 24.

Richard

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Rose Garden
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Rose Garden »

Wow! That is pretty shocking.

My husband and I were having yet another discussion on this topic this evening. He said I shouldn't say anything bad about the church leaders. I protested that it was okay and that it didn't mean that I didn't love and appreciate them. Then I had an idea come to me. I asked my husband if he loved me and he said yes. Then I pointed out that he criticized me all the time and he acknowledged that he did. I told him I was doing the same thing with the church leaders.

Just because I criticize what I perceive to be their mistakes doesn't mean I hate them and think they are evil. I think they are doing their best but feel it is better to be honest about what they are doing than to distort everything they do to make it look good. It doesn't really matter to them what I do since they have no idea who I am, but I feel that it helps others around me to recognize truth. The truth is, we usually criticize the people we love the most more than anyone else. Criticism doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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AussieOi
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AussieOi »

Called to Serve wrote:Wow! That is pretty shocking.

My husband and I were having yet another discussion on this topic this evening. He said I shouldn't say anything bad about the church leaders. I protested that it was okay and that it didn't mean that I didn't love and appreciate them. Then I had an idea come to me. I asked my husband if he loved me and he said yes. Then I pointed out that he criticized me all the time and he acknowledged that he did. I told him I was doing the same thing with the church leaders.

Just because I criticize what I perceive to be their mistakes doesn't mean I hate them and think they are evil. I think they are doing their best but feel it is better to be honest about what they are doing than to distort everything they do to make it look good. It doesn't really matter to them what I do since they have no idea who I am, but I feel that it helps others around me to recognize truth. The truth is, we usually criticize the people we love the most more than anyone else. Criticism doesn't have to be a bad thing.



Ask him if you are allowed to when they are just acting as men. Not prophets.

Gordon Hinckley gave his opinion in the War and Peace October 2002 Gen Conference talk and it was horribly, horribly wrong.

Show him the President Monson 1,2,3 lets go shopping on YouTube and ask him to keep a straight face, no facepalm.

Once I stepped away from worshipping great men (albeit being paid $600k a year plus benefits) , I found I could communicate with Jesus easier.

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AussieOi
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AussieOi »

That PB is massively wack.

What an utter, utter tool.

All PBs go to the stake pres every 6 months.
He will read it, maybe he will comment.

Sad truth is, for many people the same P gives the same PBs . Let me guess, he spoke to her for 15 minutes before hand?

Things like this make me very sad.

Poor lady.

God wouldn't, sorry, I can't imagine god would communicate like this.

The church is true, repeat to self, the church is true

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LesliePOV
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by LesliePOV »

Wow, this is the antithesis of the ideal that our membership in this church is supposed to be helping us strive for: Personal revelation.

Now if this woman is a liberal feminist academic it may also be the exact psychological leash that she needs.... :p

Okay, but assuming this PB is quoted correctly the CAPITALIZATION does seem in line with promoting infallable hierarchy a which is probably synonymous with priestcraft and idolatry.

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drjme
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by drjme »

LesliePOV wrote:Wow, this is the antithesis of the ideal that our membership in this church is supposed to be helping us strive for: Personal revelation.

Now if this woman is a liberal feminist academic it may also be the exact psychological leash that she needs.... :p

Okay, but assuming this PB is quoted correctly the CAPITALIZATION does seem in line with promoting infallable hierarchy a which is probably synonymous with priestcraft and idolatry.
Lesliepov, have you been excessively indulging in mild barley beverages? I wouldn't expect to read that last line :p

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LesliePOV
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by LesliePOV »

I never forgot the claim of a guy me and my once Dad home taught... who actually worked in a brewery, he spoke of the barley malt or whatever that was, i dunno, a pre-fermented liquid in brewing process that was FAMOUS for stopping colds in their tracks. Not withstanding that I personally need to stay away from the near-beers or anything like them- .

Pls do not confuse my deserved admiration of Joseph Smith for a blind acceptance of the hierarchy today... However they still hold the keys.

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AussieOi
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AussieOi »

drjme wrote:
LesliePOV wrote:Wow, this is the antithesis of the ideal that our membership in this church is supposed to be helping us strive for: Personal revelation.

Now if this woman is a liberal feminist academic it may also be the exact psychological leash that she needs.... :p

Okay, but assuming this PB is quoted correctly the CAPITALIZATION does seem in line with promoting infallable hierarchy a which is probably synonymous with priestcraft and idolatry.
Lesliepov, have you been excessively indulging in mild barley beverages? I wouldn't expect to read that last line :p
Blew me away too.
The new Leslie?

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Franktalk
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Franktalk »

sanity happens

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Rose Garden
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Rose Garden »

AussieOi wrote:
Called to Serve wrote:Wow! That is pretty shocking.

My husband and I were having yet another discussion on this topic this evening. He said I shouldn't say anything bad about the church leaders. I protested that it was okay and that it didn't mean that I didn't love and appreciate them. Then I had an idea come to me. I asked my husband if he loved me and he said yes. Then I pointed out that he criticized me all the time and he acknowledged that he did. I told him I was doing the same thing with the church leaders.

Just because I criticize what I perceive to be their mistakes doesn't mean I hate them and think they are evil. I think they are doing their best but feel it is better to be honest about what they are doing than to distort everything they do to make it look good. It doesn't really matter to them what I do since they have no idea who I am, but I feel that it helps others around me to recognize truth. The truth is, we usually criticize the people we love the most more than anyone else. Criticism doesn't have to be a bad thing.
Ask him if you are allowed to when they are just acting as men. Not prophets.
Doesn't matter. Jesus Himself isn't above persuading me He is right. Why should they be?

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ajax
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by ajax »

Called to Serve wrote:Doesn't matter. Jesus Himself isn't above persuading me He is right. Why should they be?
Amen.

Being told to follow a person based on priesthood office or position is false doctrine and directly contradicts D&C 121:41.

Unfortunately in F&T meeting yesterday, the very first testimony from a member of the bishopric was follow the prophet, follow the keys, follow the bishop. Look to those who sit in these positions. In this you will find happiness.

The problem is, this teaching comes directly from the top. From the For The Strength of Youth pamphlet, pg 43:
In all circumstances, follow the teachings of the prophets, the other authorities of the Church, and your local leaders. They will lead you in paths of happiness.
Any person who points to office or priesthood as a means of influence is teaching false doctrine.

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LesliePOV
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by LesliePOV »

Franktalk wrote:sanity happens
"You keep using that word. I donut think it means what you think it means"

Inigo Montoya

Rock Waterman
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Rock Waterman »

“You have a great intelligent mind, but, you will never become more intelligent than the Prophet of God. You will always raise your hand to sustain Him in knowing that He is God’s spokesman, and you will know that He receives revelation. Even though you might be great in your academics, you will always know that His wisdom and knowledge supersedes yours. You will always be obedient. You will always sustain the living Prophet.”

I find this not only wrong, but deeply evil.


Richard[/quote]

Just when I think I've heard it all, this comes along and causes my jaw to drop to the table.

And with the use of capitalization of pronouns He, His, Him, etc.!

Wow. That's all I can say about this patriarchal blessing. Wowee wow wow.

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AussieOi
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AussieOi »

Rock is in the House!

G'day bro.

In http://zomarah.wordpress.com/2011/02/09 ... a-prophet/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;





this is in this thread somewhere.

Its a link bump.



I can't agree with all of it, but I can't disagree with most of it.

Obey god
Obey Christ
Obey the holy ghost

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by A Random Phrase »

LesliePOV wrote:
Franktalk wrote:sanity happens
"You keep using that word. I donut think it means what you think it means"

Inigo Montoya
:))

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erichard
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by erichard »

LesliePOV wrote:...
Pls do not confuse my deserved admiration of Joseph Smith for a blind acceptance of the hierarchy today... However they still hold the keys.
Hi,

As far as I know, at least some church leaders hold the keys they claim to hold.

But consider this:

President Young gave a discourse once and talked about the Priesthood and its keys.

http://en.fairmormon.org/Journal_of_Discourses/9/17" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After talking about the theoretical apostasy of various levels of Priesthood, beginning with the First Presidency, he concluded this:

"Whoever is ordained to the office of an Elder to a certain degree possesses the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood; and suppose only one Elder should be left on the earth, could he go and set in order the kingdom of God? Yes, by revelation."

At every level he noted the necessity of revelation.

If I hand you a key, and you take it with your hand, your hand can say it is the only part of your body that "holds" the key. But the rest of the body can in return say they may not hold it, but they still "have" the key. The hand is simply a servant for the rest of the body to use the key. The hand does not "own" the key or "have" the key any more than all the other parts of the body.

Likewise, in the Melchizedek Priesthood, every member is to esteem his brother as himself. All who are ordained to this Priesthood collectively HAVE all the keys given to the Priesthood in the restoration. If a member falls away, then the MP body can give those keys to another.

And as Pres. Young taught, even if every Priesthood holder fell away except one Elder, that one Elder could restore the entire organization and all the offices. But he would have to have revelation to do it.

Being focused on "button, button, who has the button" is what the fundamentalists do. They worry about all the contending claims to who is the one man on the earth (D&C 132:7) with the sealing keys. Of course, in the church it is claimed to be the President of the Church.

But worrying about who has the keys without worrying about who has true revelation is clearly a mistake according to this discourse of President Young.

Do the church leaders today have revelation as they claim? There is no evidence that any one among them has had the gift to receive and write D&C type oracles as Joseph did. Not for over 120 years anyway.

And does not AoF 9 suggest further D&C type revelations when it states that "He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God." Or is AoF 9 talking about conference talks?

Since a prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as one, is it not a mistake to automatically accept everything a man ordained to be a prophet says in talks as being the same as D&C type revelations? Like for instance the Adam-God and Seed of Cain teachings of President Young given in General Conference?

I still believe in the revelations in the 2BC and the works it authorizes. Here is my convictions about why it does not contradict earlier revelations concerning Priesthood keys.

http://www.2bc.info/pdf/PAC.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Richard

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rockwood
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by rockwood »

I sure hope the stake pres is auditing PBs given by that patriarch :(

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