Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

[eric]

At the end of the day we need to base our testimony on Christ and on no one else. Followers of even true prophets will march right into the Telestial kingdom if they do not receive Christ.

Agreed, and I know by the Holy Ghost Thomas S.Monson has received and follows Christ, he is my best tangible example in the flesh of what I can achieve if I follow and receive Christ.

On the money!

[eric]

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Thomas, this is why I do not accuse the brethren. I am not a big fan of dragons or fire....

[drjme]

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Thomas, this is why I do not accuse the brethren. I am not a big fan of dragons or fire....

what eaxctly is he accusing them OF? I cant understand what this guy (eric) is on about always accusing people of accusing the brothers.
I think eric has blocked me so he will not reply it seems.

[eric]

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Um, Thomas. That is talking of the gate into the Celestial Kingdom, not speaking of the judgment given by those who were actually there expounding/teaching and then being well-received or rejected of the people..... We all will be judged of each other - you and I probably will be judged of our wives, children, dogs/cats, etc. All will witness positively or negatively of our associations with each other. Have you read Spencer's book? Not doctrine, but you get the basic flavor of how the judging will go down. Even if you committed adultery/fornication on a couch, that piece of furniture will witness against you for that act. Statements by the Brethren down through time back all of this up.

Your logic seems to be a little off. Just sayin'

[Thomas]

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Thomas, this is why I do not accuse the brethren. I am not a big fan of dragons or fire....

It doesn't say the brethern. It says our brethern.

[Thomas]

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Um, Thomas. That is talking of the gate into the Celestial Kingdom, not speaking of the judgment given by those who were actually there expounding/teaching and then being well-received or rejected of the people..... We all will be judged of each other - you and I probably will be judged of our wives, children, dogs/cats, etc. All will witness positively or negatively of our associations with each other. Have you read Spencer's book? Not doctrine, but you get the basic flavor of how the judging will go down. Even if you committed adultery/fornication on a couch, that piece of furniture will witness against you for that act. Statements by the Brethren down through time back all of this up.

Your logic seems to be a little off. Just sayin'

Eric. let me apoligize, in advance, for saying this but your doctorine is a bit off. Well lets say a mile off. There are two ways things can go. You can be held accountable for your actions and if you are accountable, you will pay for your sins. The other way, the only way into the Celestial kingdom is to come into Christ, with a broken Heart and contrite spirit. Then the atonement can pay for your sins. Unto none else can the law be done away with.

2 Nephi 2:7

7 Behold, he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law, unto all those who have a broken heart and a contrite spirit; and unto none else can the ends of the law be answered.

No man will be justified, by his actions.

Galations 2: 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Here are the words of man who is saved:

Galations 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

And another man who has been saved.

2 Nephi 25: 25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments

Galations4:

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

You curse yourself by calling for judgement upon others. You deny Christ's mercy for them. By doing so so you deny it for yourself.

Galations 5: 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law

The prophets give us the law. The law can be done away with in a word.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I will opt for the mercy of Christ. You can opt for judgement , if that is what you prefer.

[drjme]

Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".

You are correct that we will not receive our salvation directly from a prophet. But we sure find out how we can find salvation in Christ THROUGH a prophet. As Latter Day Saints, our testimony of Christ is dependent on our testimony of the prophets. Like I said earlier, you cannot go to the temple unless you have a testimony of the current prophet. In a way, you cannot partake of eternal, sealing ordinances (saving ordinances) unless you first accept the prophet.

To others on this thread- There are plenty of Christians on this earth that do their best to follow Christ. But guess what? They have missed out on how exactly they can return to the Father. They do not have baptism by authority, they do not have The Holy Ghost by authority, they do not have continual remission of sins through ordinances performed by authority, they do not have their endowments through authority, and they do not have the new and everlasting covenant of marriage by authority.

We find out how we can return to the Father and the Son through prophets who speak for the Father and the Son. Always know the prophet will NEVER lead you astray. If he did, he would be put out of his place.


Then there's the issue of what it means to follow the prophet and what it means to follow Christ. Might I recommend a great book by Stephen E. Robinson: Following Christ.

what happens to those who have had no prophet? Lets say a person in nigeria lives in the bush and Christ appears to him (much like the lord of macaroni example, if you are unsure what this is type it in in the page search above) Christ says then come follow me and the man says 'I will' and accepts Christ as his saviour. He then dies the next day having never heard from a prophet or receiving any ordinances.

So, Is Christs grace sufficient to save Him at judgement. If so, can he then receive the ordinances from Christ in his Resurrection? or is He committed to hell because he didn't receive ordinances while in the flesh, because he didn't have a prophet to administer the ordinances?
Christ in His love has prepared a way for everyone who accepts Him to receive salvation, remember, He must not only provide justice but mercy also. his Grace alone is sufficient to save someone who hasn't received knowledge of the ordinance of baptism, If you receive knowledge of the ordinance of baptism you must do it. If you receive knowledge of BoF, you must pursue it, and so forth. with knowledge comes the responsibility. If you receive the knowledge that these things are required, you must receive them. If you have had no opportunity to receive knowledge of them, Yet you accept Christ, because of His mercy, you are covered by Grace, because of His justice He provides a way to one day receive those ordinances to fulfill his requirements. Christ tells us this.

Have you looked into some experiences of indigenous peoples conversions? you know A lot of them are really interesting. there were interesting instances where Christ appeared in vision before missionaries came and the natives accepted Christ. When the missionaries came the people were ready to accept the missionaries and the Word because Christ Had already prepared them. Doesn't always happen but shows us that it's really up to Him. We also required to discern prophets using the methods that Christ told us to as I quoted previously. This then means that we are to rely on Christ to witness to us the truth of a prophet. Thats why he has blessed us with the Holy Ghost. I can't understand why you guys are fighting this concept, It is specifically as Christ instructs us. Without the sure foundation in HIM, we CANNOT discern what is OF HIM. I don't know why people think this is belittling and mocking the church leaders. I don't know if it can be said any simpler.

Edit:
To what I said earlier :

He speaks of the old Prophets "even Moses, in whom ye trust." (45) Who was pointing them to Christ, but because their trust rested in moses they couldn't comprehend the fullness of his words. it's interesting how it's worded " You trusted IN HIM, but because of this you didn't believe HIM when he spoke OF ME, you didn't trust ME"

a clear example of this is when for instance I have said as the scriptures state "Christ says come unto Him First above all else, make HIM your foundation".
Now the words of the Modern prophets say this EXACT SAME THING. THEY TELL YOU TO DO THIS. yet because your trust is in them, you are like the pharisees who Jesus is talking to saying "your trust is in Moses yet you don't believe what he says about ME"
So they don't understand Christ because their trust is in Moses instead of Christ. Even though Moses was testifying of Christ.
(When I say "you" I don't mean you infowarrior, I'm just speaking in generalities).

[Seek the Truth]

The testimony of Jesus is Jesus' actual testimony given to you by Him in person hence the saying "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". So yes in this sense Joseph was a prophet like any prophet before him.

Not exactly, no man can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Ghost, 1 Cor 12:3. The JST is interesting and JS taught on the verse 2 or 3 times in TPJS.

If a man has a testimony of Jesus by the Holy Ghost and has the keys of Presidency he is The Prophet, full stop.

These verses prove nothing.

I think they settle the issue.

Who is his servant? How does one become His servant?

Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, except he reveal his secret through his servants the prophets.

Topical Guide "Servants" has a lot more good ones.

How do we know that he is His servant?

The Holy Ghost.

Again Seek, how is the president of the Church chosen and does president equate to a prophet of God? Show me with the scriptures.

AG, I think there really is a large volume of literature on the subject of succession and any related issue. I suppose there is some contention on the issue, we have some break off sects in addition to the SLC Church. We could study the arguments of the Strangites, RLDS, Rigdonites, UT fundamentalists, there are a couple of Church of the Firstborn movements I am aware of, one in Mexico, one in Manti IIRC.

I do not consider myself an expert on this subject but neither am I unfamiliar with it. I think for me because when I gained my testimony I gained it of the Church and the Leadership at the same time. So the exact way it all plays out for me is details. Some say all Prophets are ordained by the hand of God, but that might mean preordained in the premortal. Jeremiah was apparently ordained in the belly, some Apostles were chosen by lots. D&C indicates that a fallen prophet can ordain a replacement (D&C 43:4) . I've never gone and sorted it all out personally, because of the following.

Joseph Smith taught John's teaching for detecting lying Apostles.

A power similar to this existed through the medium of the Priesthood in different ages. Moses could detect the magician’s power,3 and show that he [himself] was God’s servant4—he knew when he was upon the mountain (through revelation) that Israel was engaged in idolatry;5 he could develop the sin of Korah, Dathan and Abiram,6 detect witches7 and wizards8 in their proceedings, and point out the true prophets of the Lord.9 Joshua knew how to detect the man who had stolen the wedge of gold and the Babylonish garment.10 Michaiah could point out the false spirit by which the four hundred prophets were governed; and if his advice had been taken, many lives would have been spared, (2 Chronicles 18)11 Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and many other prophets possessed this power. Our Savior, the Apostles, and even the members of the Church were endowed with this gift, for, says Paul, (1 Corinthians 12), “To one is given the gift of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the discerning of spirits.”12 All these proceeded from the same Spirit13 of God, and were the gifts of God.14 The Ephesian church were enabled by this principle, “to try those that said they were apostles, and were not, and found them liars.” (Revelation 2:2.)15

Ultimately whether the LDS First Presidency or 12 are liars can be found out by the Holy Ghost. For me I have received my answer.

John did in fact have authority. He was called of God. Called directly by God. Don't you see? The priesthood leaders didn't call John but God alone. Caiaphas didn't ordain John to his calling. John was the sole person to obey simply because his ministry proceeded the Saviors. I don't know exactly when John was killed, I just don't recall, but when Christ's ministry began you would have followed Him alone and not John.

Joseph Smith called his original 12. 2 Apostles were chosen by lots in Acts. Were they any less called of God? Any less a legal administrator than John?

Joseph Smith taught that John was an Elias, a forerunner, who handed his baton to Christ. Caiaphas could not ordain John because he was not a legal administrator.

Jesus then left the Presidency to the Chief Apostle, Peter, FWIW.

This is correct. I don't disagree with this. The ordinances are received from the Church alone but the ordinances are a type of things. You receive the authority from the Church now go get power.

Jesus said whatever is said through the Holy Ghost are His words, something the correlation committee clearly leaves out of its manuals,

[/quote]
Citation please. Is there something wrong with the Correlation Committee?

[Seek the Truth]

You just ignore the rest of the post where I gave all the relevance from Christs own words. What do I need to use the topical guide for.

Isn't the purpose of the prophets to lead people to Christ? not to just lead them, but to lead them to Christ. This is what Christ was saying in that lengthy analysis of that scripture that you completely ignored. Shall I post an extensive list of verses where the prophets say come to Christ.

I don't think I ignored anything, people in this thread have been saying a prophet may get you in trouble, my contention is indeed a prophet will lead you to Christ. Find a Prophet if you need help finding Christ. Who among us does not need help.

Your assumption with this is Misled. We would not be led in exactly the same situation because of a few things that I cited in my post. They had no law (until Moses received the Law), they Had no Gospel, they had no written word, They had didn't have Holy Ghost like we have it. but instead manifested a visual presence on only a couple of occassions if I recall correctly, not a companionship that we are able to access thanks to Christ.They had an absolute dependence on Him. He was also already a leader of high position in society.
We on the other hand have all these things. If you don't want to use these things as well as a modern prophets words, but instead if one just wants to put all their trust in a prophet, then Christ says that one is as the the pharisee, setting his hopes on man, and because he does this he completely misses Christ. That is Christs OWN WORDS you may as well live under the law if you don't want to use all the other gifts and blessings God has given US. to be governed and judged according to the Law.

not sure what relevance this has to the conversation.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

Look at the order STT, Christ FIRST, servants SECOND.

But again you go off on a tangent thinking I'm saying something that I'm not, Ill emphasize my quote that you used so you can easily see what I mean. I will even underline, BOLD it for you and color it so you cannot misconstrue what I'm saying.

Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".

dr j, I am actually trying very hard to not go on a tangent. The relevant point of this thread is are we meant to follow Prophets. I gave some scriptures that say yes, unequivocally. By Jesus own words he has appointed men to lead us.

In no way did I mean to imply that there aren't other messages in the verses I provided, there are. But the meanings that were relevant to this thread are that yes God appoints men to lead us.

The other points about following a prophet too much I think are pretty settled, everyone understands that just belonging to the herd does not get you salvation, people who do that are not following Prophets at all. Who knows what they are following. Probably just a herd. Any follower of a prophet would not think that because prophets constantly teach us to come to Christ. To receive a Prophet is the receive the Son, the Father, and Celestial Glory (D&C 84)

[drjme]

You just ignore the rest of the post where I gave all the relevance from Christs own words. What do I need to use the topical guide for.

Isn't the purpose of the prophets to lead people to Christ? not to just lead them, but to lead them to Christ. This is what Christ was saying in that lengthy analysis of that scripture that you completely ignored. Shall I post an extensive list of verses where the prophets say come to Christ.

I don't think I ignored anything, people in this thread have been saying a prophet may get you in trouble, my contention is indeed a prophet will lead you to Christ. Find a Prophet if you need help finding Christ. Who among us does not need help.

well you seem to ignore alot because you seem to assume that I am against prophets and leaders of the church.

Your assumption with this is Misled. We would not be led in exactly the same situation because of a few things that I cited in my post. They had no law (until Moses received the Law), they Had no Gospel, they had no written word, They had didn't have Holy Ghost like we have it. but instead manifested a visual presence on only a couple of occassions if I recall correctly, not a companionship that we are able to access thanks to Christ.They had an absolute dependence on Him. He was also already a leader of high position in society.
We on the other hand have all these things. If you don't want to use these things as well as a modern prophets words, but instead if one just wants to put all their trust in a prophet, then Christ says that one is as the the pharisee, setting his hopes on man, and because he does this he completely misses Christ. That is Christs OWN WORDS you may as well live under the law if you don't want to use all the other gifts and blessings God has given US. to be governed and judged according to the Law.

not sure what relevance this has to the conversation.

45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

Look at the order STT, Christ FIRST, servants SECOND.

But again you go off on a tangent thinking I'm saying something that I'm not, Ill emphasize my quote that you used so you can easily see what I mean. I will even underline, BOLD it for you and color it so you cannot misconstrue what I'm saying.

Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".

dr j, I am actually trying very hard to not go on a tangent. The relevant point of this thread is are we meant to follow Prophets. I gave some scriptures that say yes, unequivocally. By Jesus own words he has appointed men to lead us.

In no way did I mean to imply that there aren't other messages in the verses I provided, there are. But the meanings that were relevant to this thread are that yes God appoints men to lead us.

The other points about following a prophet too much I think are pretty settled, everyone understands that just belonging to the herd does not get you salvation, people who do that are not following Prophets at all. Who knows what they are following. Probably just a herd. Any follower of a prophet would not think that because prophets constantly teach us to come to Christ. To receive a Prophet is the receive the Son, the Father, and Celestial Glory (D&C 84)

your tangent is you stick me in the anti, apostate camp in virtually every post because you don't read what I am writing. eric is even worse he likes to call me evil. If you carefully slowly read my posts you will see that I am not bad mouthing, belittling, mocking, tearing down, accusing or back stabbing the heads of the church. I only proclaim Christ first in all things, and because I say 'Christ first, prophets second' it is generally those that put their trust IN the prophet that Go on the attack against people (like me) who are only stating what what scripture and prophets and Christ say. The priority is VERY important. the Priority is because we MUST know Christ. He says it himself we MUST know HIM, not his prophets, not his words, BUT HIM (now here don't assume that I am saying we don't need his word or his prophets, I am simply prioritizing). If we don't know HIM personally he calls us out in few ways as follows:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This doesn't talk about false priests from other churches, it speaks of anyone in any church Who does not know HIM. and anyone who doesn't profess Him, in any church - even this one - is a false priest. look they even believed they performed miracles in His name, and done many great works. Religious acts without knowing HIM. these are the only people He speaks of condemnation over, religious legalistic people.

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

He would prefer we either not know of Him (cold) or be completely dedicated to Him and to know Him and passionately serve Him ( Hot).
If you're not Hot he spews you out of His Body (the body of Christ) at least if you don't know of Him, He can extend grace. If you Do know of Him but aren't really too fussed in coming to Him, or put your trust in things below Him then you are lukewarm. He doesn't want to have to do that.

Now there are a lot of things that I don't agree with. I am allowed to disagree. It does not mean I am anti. It doesn't mean I hate. It means only a few things. 1 I cannot find scripture to reconcile the issue, OR 2 I have scripture that contradicts the view of the person I am disagreeing with AND 3 Christ has not given me an absolute undeniable witness of if the thing I am disagreeing with. And without these confirmations I will not take any persons word for it lest I be deceived. So...that's how I roll.

[firend]

The reason I believe following the prophet attitude is overblown is because how many people who say they actually follow him know all his sayings? How many Lds right now have all the works of Monson. All his sayings, conference talks, articles, etc?

If you really believe in following the prophet than do it, but so far I have not met one person with this attitude who actually knows even a majority of the prophets sayings. they say obey the prophet but what is his stance on ???????????? And ? Etc

It goes both ways, because even those who say follow God before the prophet have not searched out all of Gods words either.

So figure out who you will obey, and know them totally. The problem comes from the fact that you cannot serve two masters. It will happen that the prophet will mess up. It is 100% guaranteed since he is but a sinner like all of us. It is true God reveals through his prophets to the people as a body, for without this their could be no order to organize the body. Yet the body of people including the prophet are to work together in 100% truth in God. The prophet received revelations for the body, and the body helps assist in that truth. The key word is truth. Man is never under any obligation to obey a mistake, and then try to comfort themselves by placing the blame on apollos, Cephas, monson, whoever.

God gives the prophet a truth to the body, and we help the prophet in God help accomplish this. If the prophet messes up. We love him, correct him, but do not obey him in this thing. Yet many think how dare you little peasant correct the prophet, and yet is he not our servant?

You either love the truth or you don't. God is 100% truth, man isn't. Choose who you give 100% of your life to.

If righteousness is the goal, than any prophet will be glad to have a people who are not drunk on mass media come in and correct him since in fact he to is a sinner....If righteousness is not the goal, than he will want you in your peasant place and leave the thinking to him.

[AGStacker]

Citation please. Is there something wrong with the Correlation Committee?

"Explain that the purpose of Church correlation is to preserve “the right way of God” (Jacob 7:7)." (emphasis added by me)

This quote ^ is found at this link

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 82620aRCRD

Jacob 7:

1 And now it came to pass after some years had passed away, there came a man among the people of Nephi, whose name was Sherem.

2 And it came to pass that he began to preach among the people, and to declare unto them that there should be no Christ. And he preached many things which were flattering unto the people; and this he did that he might boverthrow the doctrine of Christ.

3 And he labored diligently that he might lead away the hearts of the people, insomuch that he did lead away many hearts; and he knowing that I, Jacob, had faith in Christ who should come, he sought much opportunity that he might come unto me.

4 And he was learned, that he had a perfect knowledge of the language of the people; wherefore, he could use much flattery, and much power of speech, according to the power of the devil.

5 And he had hope to shake me from the faith, notwithstanding the many revelations and the many things which I had seen concerning these things; for I truly had seen angels, and they had ministered unto me. And also, I had heard the voice of the Lord speaking unto me in very word, from time to time; wherefore, I could not be shaken.

6 And it came to pass that he came unto me, and on this wise did he speak unto me, saying: Brother Jacob, I have sought much opportunity that I might speak unto you; for I have heard and also know that thou goest about much, preaching that which ye call the gospel, or the doctrine of Christ.

7 And ye have led away much of this people that they pervert the right way of God, and keep not the law of Moses which is the right way; and convert the law of Moses into the worship of a being which ye say shall come many hundred years hence. And now behold, I, Sherem, declare unto you that this is blasphemy; for no man knoweth of such things; for he cannot tell of things to come. And after this manner did Sherem contend against me.

The Correlation Committee is suppose to preserve the "right way of God" and support there position by quoting the first anti-Christ in the Book of Mormon. Hmmm...

[AGStacker]

Here are some quotes Seek from Brigham Young who is believed to be an actual prophet like Joseph Smith among the latter-day Saints.

"[After putting the motion for himself to be sustained as 'Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,' the President remarked:] I will say that I never dictated the latter part of that sentence. I will make the remark, because those words in that connection always made feel as though I am called more than I am deserving of. I am Brigham Young, an Apostle of Joseph Smith, and also of Jesus Christ. If I have been profitable to these people, I am glad of it. The brethren call me so; and if it be so, I am glad." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1347.)

"I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser[.]" (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1306.) "I do not want to skip Joseph, Peter, Jesus, Moses and go to my Father in Heaven. All I ask for is to be guided by the spirit of Joseph, then let others be governed by their head, or priesthood. Joseph enjoyed the priviliges which I never thought I had. Joseph was called of God. I was called of Joseph." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 2, p. 1108.)

"Did Joseph Smith ordain any man to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum..." (Times & Seasons, October 15, 1844, Vol. 5, p. 683.)

Clearly Brigham didn't believe himself to be a prophet and never called himself such. Why should we? Anytime the brethren referred to the prophet, up until McKay, they were referring to Joseph.

Seek, I support the leaders. I am not trying to displace them. I am not putting words in their mouths either as most members do. If Monson says he speaks directly to God of course I'd believe him. If he doesn't I am not going to assume he does. If the Apostles clearly say they've seen the risen Lord, like all of the prophets of old, I will believe them.

Concerns and questions you guys foolishly equate to apostatizing. Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Book of Mormon is true. I can't say with confidence that every apostle and prophet since Joseph spoke directly to the Lord and or saw Christ.

[AGStacker]

Here is what Brigham says regarding the President of the Church:

"Take any man in this kingdom, and if the people say that they will make him a President, or a Bishop, or elect him to fill any other office, and the faith of the people is concentrated to receive light through that officer or pipe laid by the power of the Priesthood from the throne of God, you might as well try to move the heavens as to receive anything wrong through that conductor. No matter whom you elect for an officer, if your faith is concentrated in him through whom to receive the things which he is appointed to administer in, light will come to you. Let a presiding officer or a Bishop turn away from righteousness, and the Lord Almighty would give him the lock-jaw, if he could not stop his mouth in any other way, or send a fit of numb palsy on him, so that he could not act, as sure as the people over whom he presided were right, that they might not be led astray." (Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1379, November 29, 1857; the talk can also found at JD Vol. 6 beginning on p. 93.)

I believe this. Still this does not make him a prophet, seer or revelator.

[AGStacker]

God welcomes sincere questions and concerns. He does not condemn them and if anything, if someone is wrong, He'll kindly correct them.

I know many despise or aren't found of Denver but he has really great insight backed by scriptures and quotes by the early Saints.

Denver:

In this system, the power of being elected coupled with the members' prayers were enough to always insure the answers you got through that leader were exactly perfect.

This was in the early days when church leaders were elected to office. Church authorities may offer names, but the congregation, stake, or church members elected them to office.

With Hyrum's death, we lost something of great value. If he had outlived Joseph, he would have been the unchallenged church president. His succession would have set the pattern for later church presidents. They each would have chosen their own successors before they died. (See D&C 43: 2-5.)

By the time Brigham Young established the twelve as the seat of power, the pattern was set. Instead of the replacement being chosen by the sitting president through revelation, the senior apostle was presumed to be the next in line. Today's legal structure using the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the succession is automatic. The corporation's sole member is the longest tenured apostle. This is in place because Hyrum did not outlive Joseph. So we are all affected by the loss of Joseph's brother.

[AshleyB]

Eric, I would be grateful if you could give an example of where the brethren have been accused of something malevolent by someone in this thread? It would help me to understand your pov a little better. The only "accusation" that has been made about them that I have seen is that they are human and capable of error at times. What is so offensive about that thought? Is that not true? If you say that you know this is true then why should that fact be offensive?

No one has said that listening to the brethren's messages is an evil thing to do. They have only said that they not only listen to the brethren's messages but that they also strive to not only SAY but to DO what is necessary to receive Christ. That includes forming our own connection to heaven which is completely independent of any other person. We cannot be saved in ignorance or on borrowed light. This is what the parable of the virgins is about. If we are truly DOING and not just drawing near to him with our lips then the fruits will be the same for us as they are for all prophets. This includes..baptism by fire and the gift of the holy ghost (justification), Calling and Election (Santification), the ministering of Angels, gifts, prophecy, healing, casting out evil, signs, miracles, visions, dreams, Second Comforter etc...and the list goes on. This is how you can know if you are on the correct course and you have more than a form of godliness which deny's the power thereof. Christ says you will know who His true disciples are by their fruits. These are the fruits.

Listening to the brethren is great. Its a good thing to do. No one disagrees with that. But if all you do is listen to them and you do not form your own connection with heaven and receive your OWN PERSONAL witnesses of truth and receive of the fulness for yourself just as the prophets have gone on and done it is completely vain and it is as though no redemption had been made. It is good to receive their messages but it is in vain and you are not TRULY RECEIVING them if you do not go on and receive all that they have received for yourself. As the BOM says we are under condemnation until we not only SAY but DO according to what we have been taught. This is the proper way to follow the prophets. It is by following in their footsteps. Prophets do not arrive at the place of being a prophet by being dependent on someone elses connection with heaven and trusting in their connection to save them. You do not come out from under the lower law until you begin to rely upon Christ and take the spirit as your guide in all things and serve in newness of spirit. That is how the law is fulfilled. Anyone who remains under the law is condemned and subject to justice and mercy can have no place with them. This is what Thomas has been talking about. Thomas and others have shared not because they have some evil agenda to tear down the brethren but because they have desires for all to receive and to come out from under this condemnation. Maybe you have already and if so that's great. Meditate and ponder over the fruits which are present in your life. You will be able to tell where you are depending upon that. No one can judge that but you.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written—

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

We are the children of Zion spoken of. We need to take these warnings seriously. All of this back and forth means nothing. Let us be our own judges. We can know based upon the fruits present in our lives whether we are not just saying but DOING according to that which has been written and according to that which the true messengers have already done. I have no power or authority to be the judge of what someone else has received or not. All I can know is what I have received. I know that much of what I have been blessed to received was not until after I learned these things for myself and my eyes were opened. We are all beggars before the Lord. It is good to receive Christ true messengers and heed the messages given through them as much as it bears good fruit and causes us to receive of the fulness. If the message discourages in any way or causes us to not be able to go on and receive of the fulness for ourselves then it is vain indeed and we are left with a vain religion that has no power to save. I dont want to disapoint Christ by failing to receive all that He desires to bestow and I am striving with all of my might, mind and strength so that I will not be numbered among these whom this prophecy was written...

23 Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

We ignore the prophecies and warnings at our own peril. The Lord says there are never a group of people who have not been given ample warning of coming destruction if they do not repent. He always gives warnings. However, it is rare for a group of people to believe the warnings. What is more common is for the people to dismiss the warnings and become angry with and cast out those who are sounding the warning voice.

[TZONE]

While thomas is right there is no servant at the gate, eric is right the 12 will judge the righteous. Christ will judge the wicked. Its right in the Book of Mormon, and Joseph smith taught it. Delegation is a true principle. Yes we enter through the veil by Christ into God's presence but we are still judged by the 12. How I don't know but its a true doctrine.

[InfoWarrior82]

what happens to those who have had no prophet? Lets say a person in nigeria lives in the bush and Christ appears to him (much like the lord of macaroni example, if you are unsure what this is type it in in the page search above) Christ says then come follow me and the man says 'I will' and accepts Christ as his saviour. He then dies the next day having never heard from a prophet or receiving any ordinances.

So, Is Christs grace sufficient to save Him at judgement. If so, can he then receive the ordinances from Christ in his Resurrection? or is He committed to hell because he didn't receive ordinances while in the flesh, because he didn't have a prophet to administer the ordinances?
Christ in His love has prepared a way for everyone who accepts Him to receive salvation, remember, He must not only provide justice but mercy also. his Grace alone is sufficient to save someone who hasn't received knowledge of the ordinance of baptism, If you receive knowledge of the ordinance of baptism you must do it. If you receive knowledge of BoF, you must pursue it, and so forth. with knowledge comes the responsibility. If you receive the knowledge that these things are required, you must receive them. If you have had no opportunity to receive knowledge of them, Yet you accept Christ, because of His mercy, you are covered by Grace, because of His justice He provides a way to one day receive those ordinances to fulfill his requirements. Christ tells us this.

Have you looked into some experiences of indigenous peoples conversions? you know A lot of them are really interesting. there were interesting instances where Christ appeared in vision before missionaries came and the natives accepted Christ. When the missionaries came the people were ready to accept the missionaries and the Word because Christ Had already prepared them. Doesn't always happen but shows us that it's really up to Him. We also required to discern prophets using the methods that Christ told us to as I quoted previously. This then means that we are to rely on Christ to witness to us the truth of a prophet. Thats why he has blessed us with the Holy Ghost. I can't understand why you guys are fighting this concept, It is specifically as Christ instructs us. Without the sure foundation in HIM, we CANNOT discern what is OF HIM. I don't know why people think this is belittling and mocking the church leaders. I don't know if it can be said any simpler.

Edit:
To what I said earlier :

He speaks of the old Prophets "even Moses, in whom ye trust." (45) Who was pointing them to Christ, but because their trust rested in moses they couldn't comprehend the fullness of his words. it's interesting how it's worded " You trusted IN HIM, but because of this you didn't believe HIM when he spoke OF ME, you didn't trust ME"

a clear example of this is when for instance I have said as the scriptures state "Christ says come unto Him First above all else, make HIM your foundation".
Now the words of the Modern prophets say this EXACT SAME THING. THEY TELL YOU TO DO THIS. yet because your trust is in them, you are like the pharisees who Jesus is talking to saying "your trust is in Moses yet you don't believe what he says about ME"
So they don't understand Christ because their trust is in Moses instead of Christ. Even though Moses was testifying of Christ.
(When I say "you" I don't mean you infowarrior, I'm just speaking in generalities).

When the Holy Ghost reveals to you (while in mortality) that the restored gospel is true, and then not following the instructions given through the prophet on how to continue the first step towards eternal life, you probably won't get another chance after death. Even in the spirit world, we must accept the restored gospel in order to receive eternal life. Prophets and apostles are included in the restored gospel. We will still need priesthood authority (and to accept it) in order to receive eternal life. There's just no way around it.

[drjme]

what happens to those who have had no prophet? Lets say a person in nigeria lives in the bush and Christ appears to him (much like the lord of macaroni example, if you are unsure what this is type it in in the page search above) Christ says then come follow me and the man says 'I will' and accepts Christ as his saviour. He then dies the next day having never heard from a prophet or receiving any ordinances.

So, Is Christs grace sufficient to save Him at judgement. If so, can he then receive the ordinances from Christ in his Resurrection? or is He committed to hell because he didn't receive ordinances while in the flesh, because he didn't have a prophet to administer the ordinances?
Christ in His love has prepared a way for everyone who accepts Him to receive salvation, remember, He must not only provide justice but mercy also. his Grace alone is sufficient to save someone who hasn't received knowledge of the ordinance of baptism, If you receive knowledge of the ordinance of baptism you must do it. If you receive knowledge of BoF, you must pursue it, and so forth. with knowledge comes the responsibility. If you receive the knowledge that these things are required, you must receive them. If you have had no opportunity to receive knowledge of them, Yet you accept Christ, because of His mercy, you are covered by Grace, because of His justice He provides a way to one day receive those ordinances to fulfill his requirements. Christ tells us this.

Have you looked into some experiences of indigenous peoples conversions? you know A lot of them are really interesting. there were interesting instances where Christ appeared in vision before missionaries came and the natives accepted Christ. When the missionaries came the people were ready to accept the missionaries and the Word because Christ Had already prepared them. Doesn't always happen but shows us that it's really up to Him. We also required to discern prophets using the methods that Christ told us to as I quoted previously. This then means that we are to rely on Christ to witness to us the truth of a prophet. Thats why he has blessed us with the Holy Ghost. I can't understand why you guys are fighting this concept, It is specifically as Christ instructs us. Without the sure foundation in HIM, we CANNOT discern what is OF HIM. I don't know why people think this is belittling and mocking the church leaders. I don't know if it can be said any simpler.

Edit:
To what I said earlier :

He speaks of the old Prophets "even Moses, in whom ye trust." (45) Who was pointing them to Christ, but because their trust rested in moses they couldn't comprehend the fullness of his words. it's interesting how it's worded " You trusted IN HIM, but because of this you didn't believe HIM when he spoke OF ME, you didn't trust ME"

a clear example of this is when for instance I have said as the scriptures state "Christ says come unto Him First above all else, make HIM your foundation".
Now the words of the Modern prophets say this EXACT SAME THING. THEY TELL YOU TO DO THIS. yet because your trust is in them, you are like the pharisees who Jesus is talking to saying "your trust is in Moses yet you don't believe what he says about ME"
So they don't understand Christ because their trust is in Moses instead of Christ. Even though Moses was testifying of Christ.
(When I say "you" I don't mean you infowarrior, I'm just speaking in generalities).

When the Holy Ghost reveals to you (while in mortality) that the restored gospel is true, and then not following the instructions given through the prophet on how to continue the first step towards eternal life, you probably won't get another chance after death. Even in the spirit world, we must accept the restored gospel in order to receive eternal life. Prophets and apostles are included in the restored gospel. We will still need priesthood authority (and to accept it) in order to receive eternal life. There's just no way around it.

Please read what I wrote again. Because your answer doesn't doesn't address my question which I assume you are answering( About someone who recieved Christ but never has the opportunity to receive ordinance. Because of their circumstance out of their control.) remembering that he is not only justified but also unbelievably merciful. I am not talking about someone who denies the Holy Ghost. I am talking about someone who recieved Christ because he reveals himself to them without any prophets or them even any written word.

[InfoWarrior82]

Please read what I wrote again. Because your answer doesn't doesn't address my question which I assume you are answering( About someone who recieved Christ but never has the opportunity to receive ordinance. Because of their circumstance out of their control.) remembering that he is not only justified but also unbelievably merciful. I am not talking about someone who denies the Holy Ghost. I am talking about someone who recieved Christ because he reveals himself to them without any prophets or them even any written word.

Yes, they will enter heaven. If they accept more than just Christ alone. Their ordinances will be done through proxy work. I'm trying to emphasize to you that the person who died, would still have to accept the WHOLE restored gospel. Including the prophets, apostles, and priesthood authority. If they have never heard about a prophet, that's what the teaching and learning in the spirit world is for. They have an opportunity to accept or reject it. How can someone in the spirit world accept an ordinance done through proxy if they don't understand the priesthood? How does someone understand the priesthood if they don't know about prophets? It's probably not that much different than learning and accepting the restored gospel in mortality.

D&C 137

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

[eric]

Thank you Info Warrior for taking my back. Indeed, the first thing we teach about is Prophets (apostles, etc) when we teach the discussions. They are foundational - even for someone who has no concept of Christianity - but believes in some sort of higher power, such as God. Once you establish a connection between the heavens and earth by way of a intermediary, then people can begin to accept scripture, etc. When they learn about sin (people violating commandments revealed to man, through Prophets) and death and how its overcome, then they see the need for the atonement and for a Savior of the world. Then they begin to develop faith in Jesus Christ. Its line upon line, precept on precept. BUT, the foundational first line is always the need for God to speak to Prophets FIRST. Few people from any walk of life would have any concept of God just randomly showing up and speaking to the average guy on the street. Now, for God to CHOOSE someone who is special in some way to represent Him; they WOULD get that.

Now. If I could just get a few people on this forum to see that!! Did people not serve missions out there??

[InfoWarrior82]

Thank you Info Warrior for taking my back. Indeed, the first thing we teach about is Prophets (apostles, etc) when we teach the discussions. They are foundational - even for someone who has no concept of Christianity - but believes in some sort of higher power, such as God. Once you establish a connection between the heavens and earth by way of a intermediary, then people can begin to accept scripture, etc. When they learn about sin (people violating commandments revealed to man, through Prophets) and death and how its overcome, then they see the need for the atonement and for a Savior of the world. Then they begin to develop faith in Jesus Christ. Its line upon line, precept on precept. BUT, the foundational first line is always the need for God to speak to Prophets FIRST. Few people from any walk of life would have any concept of God just randomly showing up and speaking to the average guy on the street. Now, for God to CHOOSE someone who is special in some way to represent Him; they WOULD get that.

Now. If I could just get a few people on this forum to see that!! Did people not serve missions out there??

You're welcome. But I think it is possible that we all may just be talking past each other and not really knowing it. Haha.. I think I might know the point many of them are trying to make.. and yes, it makes sense and I agree...

1. That a prophet, as a man, does not grant us salvation.
2. That we must individually come to know Christ, gain a personal relationship with Him, and follow His example.
3. We cannot follow a prophet blindly or take his word for it.
4. Many LDS living in high concentrated areas of membership tend to live their religion more of a cultural thing rather than purely living it because they have a solid testimony.

Who knows, maybe this isn't the point they are trying to make at all.

[Thomas]

What if a prophet teaches false doctrine? We know some have in the past. Brigham Young taught a few things that are now not accepted as doctrine. Here are a few:

Adam was the father of Christ, both phyiscally and spiritually. Adam is God and the father of all our spirits. You will be dammned if you don't accept this doctrine.

The church will never stop polygamy. Polygamy is required for exhaltation.

The black race is the seed of Cain and are cursed with low intelligence. The are a great gift for servants. They will not be given the priesthood until every other person has had the opportuntity to receive the preisthoiod first. The church would lose it's priesthood if they ever ordained blacks. Bruce R. McKonkie taught his as well as others.

The Sun and the Moon are inhabited.

If a white person marries a black person they will be killed by God on the spot.

This is just a small sample of doctrines, Brigham Young taught, that are not currently accepted doctrines. They are documented in the JOD.

Some people would not accept these doctrines, most notably Orson Pratt, who would not accept Adam as God. He knew the scriptures taught otherwise. He was threatened with excomunication by Brigham Young and finally backed down on the issue. many fundamentlist groups still believe Young's teachings. Brigham Young split the church into many groups, that folowed his teachings after the church changed them.

Another person who would not accept Adam God was Edward Bunker.He was A bishop who spoke out against this doctrine. He was brought in front of a church court for opposing the teachings. His Sp turned the case of to the First Presidency because it had become a hot botton issue. This was around 1891. The Church Pres was Wilford Woodruff. Shortly after this encounter, the church stopped teaching Adam is God.


So I say, follow the spirit to determine if the prophet teaches true doctorine. We know false teachings can come from a prophet. The way to know is to have the spirit and a knowledge of the scriptures. Anything that does not compy with the standard works, we can discard.

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.” ( Doctrines of Salvation 3:203) Joesph Fielding Smith.

I would be a lot more on Eric's side, if history did not prove his postion wrong. I believe Joseph Fielding Smith's statement, is true.

[Thomas]

Thank you Info Warrior for taking my back. Indeed, the first thing we teach about is Prophets (apostles, etc) when we teach the discussions. They are foundational - even for someone who has no concept of Christianity - but believes in some sort of higher power, such as God. Once you establish a connection between the heavens and earth by way of a intermediary, then people can begin to accept scripture, etc. When they learn about sin (people violating commandments revealed to man, through Prophets) and death and how its overcome, then they see the need for the atonement and for a Savior of the world. Then they begin to develop faith in Jesus Christ. Its line upon line, precept on precept. BUT, the foundational first line is always the need for God to speak to Prophets FIRST. Few people from any walk of life would have any concept of God just randomly showing up and speaking to the average guy on the street. Now, for God to CHOOSE someone who is special in some way to represent Him; they WOULD get that.

Now. If I could just get a few people on this forum to see that!! Did people not serve missions out there??

You're welcome. But I think it is possible that we all may just be talking past each other and not really knowing it. Haha.. I think I might know the point many of them are trying to make.. and yes, it makes sense and I agree...

1. That a prophet, as a man, does not grant us salvation.
2. That we must individually come to know Christ, gain a personal relationship with Him, and follow His example.
3. We cannot follow a prophet blindly or take his word for it.
4. Many LDS living in high concentrated areas of membership tend to live their religion more of a cultural thing rather than purely living it because they have a solid testimony.

Who knows, maybe this isn't the point they are trying to make at all.

Good post Infowarrior. That pretty much sums it up. It is no attack on the church or the prophet.

[drjme]

Please read what I wrote again. Because your answer doesn't doesn't address my question which I assume you are answering( About someone who recieved Christ but never has the opportunity to receive ordinance. Because of their circumstance out of their control.) remembering that he is not only justified but also unbelievably merciful. I am not talking about someone who denies the Holy Ghost. I am talking about someone who recieved Christ because he reveals himself to them without any prophets or them even any written word.

Yes, they will enter heaven. If they accept more than just Christ alone. Their ordinances will be done through proxy work. I'm trying to emphasize to you that the person who died, would still have to accept the WHOLE restored gospel. Including the prophets, apostles, and priesthood authority. If they have never heard about a prophet, that's what the teaching and learning in the spirit world is for. They have an opportunity to accept or reject it. How can someone in the spirit world accept an ordinance done through proxy if they don't understand the priesthood? How does someone understand the priesthood if they don't know about prophets? It's probably not that much different than learning and accepting the restored gospel in mortality.

D&C 137

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

Ok cool, in my post I said, those who have experienced Christ but have not had the opportunity to receive His ordinances, will get the opportunity in the resurrection to accept them, this provides both Justice and mercy to be fulfilled, which was one of the point of what I was saying. Also when someone accepts Christ and the Father witnesses His truth to them, When they dedicate their life To HIM they will do as He asks, It is accepting Him that you accept His Gospel. I'm not sure why we wold be separating Christ and the Gospel. He IS the word, He IS the Gospel. He also says this himself. All else are appendages to Him.

the first thing we teach about is Prophets (apostles, etc) when we teach the discussions. They are foundational - even for someone who has no concept of Christianity - but believes in some sort of higher power, such as God. Once you establish a connection between the heavens and earth by way of a intermediary, then people can begin to accept scripture, etc.

eric's blocked me but I'll reply to it anyway. My words must have stung Him too much. This is statement is partly true and partly false.
firstly people don't accept scripture because of an intermediary(though if we choose to live under the letter of law then yes we need a intermediary.), they accept it because truth is witnessed to their hearts from the heavens. otherwise our witness lies in Men instead of the father. If the man falls, the witness of truth falls with Him for those who trust in the Man. If their witness of truth is from the heavens, the man falls, but the witness of truth stands firm and strong. This is why so many feel threatened to defend the divine infallibilty of the bretheren, their strength rests in Men. If those men have any spot against them it hits the followers testimony.

the foundational first line is always the need for God to speak to Prophets FIRST. Few people from any walk of life would have any concept of God just randomly showing up and speaking to the average guy on the street. Now, for God to CHOOSE someone who is special in some way to represent Him; they WOULD get that.

we have multiple sources of scripture saying otherwise as well as multiple peoples experiences saying otherwise. because you live in your Utah Bubble where it doesn't happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen everywhere else in the world.
Christ does show up to who He wants. How do you think prophets become prophets? how many people have seen Christ in vision before hearing from a prophet. plenty. and plenty of times he calls them to be a prophet! A witness of Him! not 'The' Prophet, but A prophet. Im not saying this is how it always happens , I'm saying it does happen. He works how he wants to.

1. That a prophet, as a man, does not grant us salvation.
2. That we must individually come to know Christ, gain a personal relationship with Him, and follow His example.
3. We cannot follow a prophet blindly or take his word for it.
4. Many LDS living in high concentrated areas of membership tend to live their religion more of a cultural thing rather than purely living it because they have a solid testimony.

yes, probably just talking past each other