Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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eric
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

Ashley, the Jews were guilty of NOT following the Prophets sent to them. I seem to sense a bias against the Brethren in this thread - and in many other threads. Did I miss something while listening to Conference??

eric
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

Jarbar wrote:I come back to my first point... Nowhere in the scriptures does it say "follow the prophet"
Indeed, but a true Prophet will always lead the people to Christ. Anything else is anti-Christ. Our Prophet currently is leading us to Christ-like living.....

People are confusing two different things..... and its not good. Some of it is done out of ignorance, some of it is done purposefully by wolves in sheep's clothing. Those wolves will be accursed for their part, in the name of the Lord.

AshleyB
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AshleyB »

Depends on your definition of following Eric. If your definition of following is following the prophet by doing as he already did and entering Christ's Presence then sure. But the scriptures are pretty clear that they were guilty of the opposite. They preferred to have Moses speak to them on behalf of God for them. They were afraid to enter the Lord's Presence for themselves and so they were condemned and moses was taken from them. To me it seems like there are a lot of people today who are afraid to enter the Lord's presence and they are content to let someone else do it. If God was angry with them for not relying on Moses enough then why would he have taken Moses away from them?

I have not witnessed any bias against the brethren. No one has said anything bad about them. I see some people saying they will not rely on someone else to talk to God for them. That is not a personal attack on the brethren. The op asked a question. It shouldn't be asked if an honest answer is not wanted.

Again, the BOM says it best...

52 And whoso receiveth not my voice is not acquainted with my voice, and is not of me.

53 And by this you may know the righteous from the wicked, and that the whole world groaneth under sin and darkness even now.

54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received—

55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.

56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.

57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written

58 That they may bring forth fruit meet for their Father’s kingdom; otherwise there remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion.

59 For shall the children of the kingdom apollute my holy land? Verily, I say unto you, Nay.

60 Verily, verily, I say unto you who now hear my words, which are my voice, blessed are ye inasmuch as you receive these things;
Last edited by AshleyB on April 9th, 2013, 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

eric wrote:Ashley, the Jews were guilty of NOT following the Prophets sent to them. I seem to sense a bias against the Brethren in this thread - and in many other threads. Did I miss something while listening to Conference??
Eric I am quite sure you have missed this part of conference 1992 and all the warnings, in the Book of Mormon, pertaining to our wickedness.
He [Moroni] realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“‘Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“‘Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“‘And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“‘For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“‘O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of god? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies–because of the praise of the world?’ (Mormon 8:34-38)

I guess one of the greatest mysteries of mortality is why mankind fails to learn from history. Why do those who profess to be true followers of Christ so often become victims of the enticements of the world? The evidence is so strong regarding the blessings which accrue to those who trust in and follow the ways the Lord has prescribed for us. Elder L. Tom Perry (Conference Report, Ensign, November, 1992,)
I am sure you will ignore the warnings of this still living Apostle, combined with the many warnings of the dead prophets and continue on your holy mission of convincing everyone the Book of Mormon is not true and we have no need to repent.

eric
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

Yes, and this Apostle quoted a Prophet from the Book of Mormon - but, nay; we do NOT follow the prophets, living or dead, now do we??

I think there is toxicity to following the Prophets by many on this forum. We follow them because they lead us to Christ. Many Prophets follow other Prophets, such as Nephi exhorting us to follow the words of Isaiah. Never once did Christ condemn some of the earlier BoM prophets for what they had said. Many here speak as if Christ will return one day and rebuke the existing leadership for having led us astray. I think not - and many here are deluded and have gone astray in their thinking; believing that this will be the case. I know an apostate spirit when I see one, and its present here. Most who rail on tithing, also rail on the existing leadership - and they do so at their own peril.

Do not shoot me, though. I am just the messenger. I tend to always be conservative and err on the side of being cautious rather than cast stones first, and then attempt to pull those stones back after having already done the damage. In a public forum, I would cast aspersions on chosen servants with care and caution - and remember that you will be sitting or standing in front of those whom you seek to condemn asking whether you can move forward in the kingdom one day. The answer may well not be what you expect if you are not careful. Just sayin'.

firend
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by firend »

God = perfect...man = sinner
God = law giver....man/leader = administrator

Does the administrator need help? Yes.

I follow God, I help my leaders. I do not follow any man, for what good can i be to him as a slave? How can I assist him in his duties to disperse administration when I have no recourse but to say yes master? How can I ever correct him if he errs? Wouldn't all righteous leaders who know they are sinners desire correction if needed? However we live in a king/ serf world....most say yes master to man, I only say it to God.
Last edited by firend on April 10th, 2013, 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

eric wrote:Yes, and this Apostle quoted a Prophet from the Book of Mormon - but, nay; we do NOT follow the prophets, living or dead, now do we??

I think there is toxicity to following the Prophets by many on this forum. We follow them because they lead us to Christ. Many Prophets follow other Prophets, such as Nephi exhorting us to follow the words of Isaiah. Never once did Christ condemn some of the earlier BoM prophets for what they had said. Many here speak as if Christ will return one day and rebuke the existing leadership for having led us astray. I think not - and many here are deluded and have gone astray in their thinking; believing that this will be the case. I know an apostate spirit when I see one, and its present here. Most who rail on tithing, also rail on the existing leadership - and they do so at their own peril.

Do not shoot me, though. I am just the messenger. I tend to always be conservative and err on the side of being cautious rather than cast stones first, and then attempt to pull those stones back after having already done the damage. In a public forum, I would cast aspersions on chosen servants with care and caution - and remember that you will be sitting or standing in front of those whom you seek to condemn asking whether you can move forward in the kingdom one day. The answer may well not be what you expect if you are not careful. Just sayin'.
Eric, just who has bad mouthed the brethern? I guess you seem to be on some kind of doctorinal crusade. This thread has been about the doctrine of follow the prophet and if it is scriptual, or not.

As far as setting in front of the brothern, for judement, All I can say is huh??? :- =; My judge will be Christ, who employs no servant at the gate. I know his judgement will tempered with mercy. I will ask for mercy and not judgement. You can ask for judgement if you want.
2 Nephi 9:41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
I don't know were you get judgement from the brethern. As for my words, on the internet, I hope all will pay heed to the following scripture:
2 Nephi 27: 31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off;

32 And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.
Many here seem it is their holy mission to call people out for a word. Look for inquity in people's opinions. Why not live and let live. We all err, in our knowledge. Christ will judge my heart and not make me an offender for a word.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

AGStacker wrote: 1) Is president Monson an actual prophet of God? If so what scriptures support this? How did he become president of the Church? Is president the same thing as prophet? Are they different? What are the fruits of a prophet? Does president Monson have any of these fruits?
Joseph Smith nearly half a dozen times said that he was a prophet based on his testimony of Jesus alone, full stop, no mention of visions or ordinations (TPJS index, "testimony") or anything else.

If a man has the testimony of Jesus and has the Keys of the Presidency he is The Prophet, full stop, end of story.
If he isn't clearly this has HUGE implications because people are told over and over again, like we all know we are, that if we follow the prophet we'll make it to the Celestial kingdom. What if we're wrong?
Then Jesus would be wrong too.

D&C 84.

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.


You can follow the prophet right into heaven. It's sort of a relay race.
What if Nephi's warning for us to not trust in the arm of flesh means no man? Would a president of the Church be included? Would a prophet of God be included? Should we follow any man or Christ alone?
[/quote][/quote]
Well, Joseph Smith would have a lot of explaining to do. Joseph Smith said the man John was the sole legal administrator on earth and the jews were to obey him or be damned. Obey. They were to obey a man with authority.

Joseph Smith also said that there is no salvation without a legal administrator, and that when one was present even an angel cannot baptize. John the angel conferred JS and OC with priesthood, and then they had to reconfer each other by commandment(JSH 1:70 or so) (all of this can be found in the TPJS index, "legal administrator")

Paul taught that Jesus gave us apostles, prophets, teachers and so forth. The question must be asked, why then did God send us prophets and apostles if prophets and apostles are not needed at all? Why then were they sent?

As for the arm of flesh, it says the precepts of men are just fine as given by the Holy Ghost in 2 Nephi. Jesus also says that whether the words of his servants or his own voice, it is the same (D&C 1:35-38)
Also, is it evil to ask by whom or where a man got his authority?
Probably not. I think though that ultimately this will be determined by prayer. I think people should pray to know if Thomas Monson is a Prophet of God if they are unsure. No other answer will really satisfy.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

Thomas wrote: As AshleyB has said, you can keep the lower laws and consider yourself righteous and compared to the rest of the world, you might be more righteous, but God has a higher standard then we think. How do I know this. The Book of Mormon and other scriptures tell me so.
How is that related to what we've talked about?
I guess you might try to argue, we are not the Gentiles mentioned, that need to repent of our inquity. If so who are the Gentiles that will recieve this record, once they have repented?
Where do LDS Prophets teach we have no need of repentance?
I hear a lot, in church, and by church members that we have all things restored to us that were ever given to man, from God. Moroni clearly states, that is not true. We are not worthy to receive what the Jaredites were given.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
We consider ourselves righteous, but Moroni does not. He has clearly stated, we are wicked. He is not the only prophet to say so. They are many references to this in the scrptures. I can give you plenty more, but will save them for now, to keep this post size down. I will leave one more though, that goes to what Ashely has stated about the FULLNESS OF THE GOSPEL.
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 But they receive it not; for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
They turn their hearts from Christ. Is it because so many set their hearts on the prophet, instead of Christ? In any case there is much evidence that God does not think we are righteous.
This seems like a mixed message. If we can focus it down, if we have a real life honest to goodness Prophet who testifies of Christ and preaches repentance, for example all known LDS Presidents and Apostles what exactly are we supposed to do with them.

AshleyB
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AshleyB »

I agree with Thomas and with that I will bow out of the discussion. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I hope we all come unto Christ and love one another. That is the most important thing regardless of our different views of where we currently find ourselves as a people.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

AshleyB wrote:
You are free to believe as you wish seek. You can apply the Bom's warnings to only other groups of people who God knew would never read it if you want. I think it is a big mistake to try and exclude ourselves. In fact, that sounds familiar to me.
16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.
I don't see a mention of following prophets too much in this passage. Just sounds like stuck upness. Self righteousness.
God's children are constantly condemned for relying too much on flesh and for allowing the prophet to stand between them and Christ so that they do not come unto Christ and receive of the fulness.
I don't know about constant. I know of a few examples. OTOH reject prophets has it's own subject heading in the Topical Guide. Quite a few entries. It's rather long. The "Prophets Mission of" has LOT of good scriptures too.
This is exactly what the Jews were condemned for but we somehow think that could never be the case with us. I have never heard them condemned for believing too much in Christ. Only for the opposite.
There are a lot scriptures condemning Jews for rejecting Prophets.
Again, if other people want to place their faith in men that's their business. Im not going to judge but I will say as long as a person continues to do that they will never be able to receive of the fulness and truly receive Christ.
D&C 84 says if you receive a Prophet you will receive Christ, the Father and Celestial Kingdom.
As for the second part of what you said about Idolatry and oragies. Relying on the arm of flesh and desiring more to be subject to a man then you desire to come unto Christ IS Idolatry. As far as oragies go.. that has been a part of church history as well. Not that debating these points really matter. The point is we should all recognize we are all beggers before the Lord and we should repent.
I think that has been the message of all LDS Presidents and Apostles from the beginning.
Hardening our hearts to the message of repentance or thinking we are a chosen people destined to be saved while all around us are destined to perish sounds a lot like the Zoramites to me. And God considered them hard hearted and prideful for it.
I agree with that. I'm not sure how it is being conflated with following prophets. I thought GC was amazing, Christ and repentance centered.
As far as the op goes... Following any man has never been known to be a commandment.
Joseph Smith said that the Jews were to obey John the Baptist or be damned. TPJS pg 276
The Jews we're cursed for it and Moses was taken out of their midst.
They were cursed for not following Moses's message. They didn't truly follow him, in the end. D&C 84 say the problem is that they did not follow Moses.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his danger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.

They were left with the Priest Aaron who the lower Priesthood and law was named after which was after a law of carnal commandments and symbols and had no power to bring a man into Christ's Presence. This was the same priest who danced around the golden calf with the people. Joseph and the Patriarch Hyrum were taken out of the saints midst and they were left with confusion and then eventually Brigham. Brigham was a good man but lest face it. He was no Joseph or Moses. He was more like Aaron. Not only that but they wandered and endured sore cursings. If one truly desires to understand and know the truth of where we stand as a people they will see the parralells between their day and ours uncanny. We are a church and a people under condemnation. WHY? Because we have treated lightly the things we have received and we have treated lightly the bom and the covenants. We are told when we repent and we not only SAY but DO what the bom teaches and what we are taught and keep our covenants then we will come out from under this condemnation. It seems odd to me to admit that in one breath we are under condemnations for these things, while assuming the warnings in the bom about rejecting the fulness are about all those other people who don't read the bom. It seems to defy logic. All those other people are likely going to receive more mercy than the ones who know of the bom and know of the greater covenants and fail to receive them. This is why the Lord says the destruction will begin upon his house. I would be very careful in assuming the warnings are not about the people destined to read the book. But alas, I digress...
I'm curious about the conflation of being wicked and following a prophet. Seems like separate topics entirely. If you followed any of the Prophets I saw over the weekend you would be greatly inspired to repent and seek Christ.
Here is something that IS a commandment and I am more concerned about making sure I follow it.

35 Thou shalt have no other God before me.
Well, that gets complicated. Joseph Smith seemed to consider some ancient prophets as Gods, and said he wanted to revere them. Sort of seemed like hyperbolic language to me, but... (tpjs pg 375)

If Moses could be a God to Israel, why wouldn't you follow him?

I don't know anyone that believes Thomas Monson is a God. To them. But maybe we should rethink that. Maybe he is a God to us.

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drjme
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by drjme »

I believe there are a few tiers in order to follow a prophet.

1. The Holy Ghost
2. The written Words of Christ and old prophets words
3. new prophets Words

We are blessed to have the first two to gauge the third. I personally believe this is the process by which I should be assessing their words. NOT just believing and following. It's an order that maintains a healthy reliance on Firstly the Holy Ghost, secondly reading comparing and understanding the word, and their witness should be a third reference to point you to Christ. If they are declaring something contrary to the written word then we have To have absolute reliance on the first witness. the Holy Ghost.

I posted these verses in another thread and the probably fit well here too:
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Christ here speaks of these levels of different witnesses in John 5.

the Father bears witness of Christ via the Holy Ghost (37), the father wants you to come to Him, through Christ. this should always be our main source of truth assessment.
These people won't receive the first witness because their trust is in other things, they couldn't discern John who Christ sent, even though John was pointing them to Christ, because of this.
the second witness "the scriptures that testify of Christ" (39). These intend to point you to Christ.
He speaks of the old Prophets "even Moses, in whom ye trust." (45) Who was pointing them to Christ, but because their trust rested in moses they couldn't comprehend the fullness of his words. it's interesting how it's worded " You trusted IN HIM, but because of this you didn't believe HIM when he spoke OF ME, you didn't trust ME"

The highlighted verse also talks of putting things spiritual things in front of Christ, they are there to point Us to Christ, Yet lack of faith In Him causes us to put our faith in the tangible, and our trust stops in the thing that is pointing us to Christ. this is not Good.

(Ye) Search (in) the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

(Ye) Search (in) the Church; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

(Ye) Search (in) the leaders; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life

We can replace the word scriptures with anything else to get the same effect.

the times when people have been required to unquestioningly follow a leader or prophet was generally when 2 things weren't present.
these being A 'law', and the Holy Ghost. God has blessed us with the Holy Ghost, He has given us a "law" or a gospel, A written Word, and and the witnesses of Prophets, these are all there to point us to follow HIM and seek our salvation in HIM. If we place our trust in something else instead of Him, He asks us:

"You search and trust in these things thinking you gain eternal Life, but they are simply there to testify of me and to point you to me. So why wont you come to ME? That I may Give you life?"

Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

drjme wrote: Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".
I think if you Topical Guide "Prophets, Mission of" you may get another impression.

Here are a couple of good ones in particular:

D&C 103
15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be bled out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
Sounds like having a leader is a good thing.

D&C 105

6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;
Interesting bit at the end.

D&C 124
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.

Zkulptor
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Zkulptor »

Gad wrote:At the end of the day we need to base our testimony on Christ and on no one else. Followers of even true prophets will march right into the Telestial kingdom if they do not receive Christ.
Agreed, and I know by the Holy Ghost Thomas S.Monson has received and follows Christ, he is my best tangible example in the flesh of what I can achieve if I follow and receive Christ.

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drjme
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by drjme »

Seek the Truth wrote:
drjme wrote: Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".
I think if you Topical Guide "Prophets, Mission of" you may get another impression.

Here are a couple of good ones in particular:

D&C 103
15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be bled out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.
Sounds like having a leader is a good thing.

D&C 105

6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;
Interesting bit at the end.

D&C 124
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
You just ignore the rest of the post where I gave all the relevance from Christs own words. What do I need to use the topical guide for.

Isn't the purpose of the prophets to lead people to Christ? not to just lead them, but to lead them to Christ. This is what Christ was saying in that lengthy analysis of that scripture that you completely ignored. Shall I post an extensive list of verses where the prophets say come to Christ.
16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.
Your assumption with this is Misled. We would not be led in exactly the same situation because of a few things that I cited in my post. They had no law (until Moses received the Law), they Had no Gospel, they had no written word, They had didn't have Holy Ghost like we have it. but instead manifested a visual presence on only a couple of occassions if I recall correctly, not a companionship that we are able to access thanks to Christ.They had an absolute dependence on Him. He was also already a leader of high position in society.
We on the other hand have all these things. If you don't want to use these things as well as a modern prophets words, but instead if one just wants to put all their trust in a prophet, then Christ says that one is as the the pharisee, setting his hopes on man, and because he does this he completely misses Christ. That is Christs OWN WORDS you may as well live under the law if you don't want to use all the other gifts and blessings God has given US. to be governed and judged according to the Law.
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

7 I speak not concerning those who are appointed to lead my people, who are the first elders of my church, for they are not all under this condemnation;
not sure what relevance this has to the conversation.
45 And if my people will hearken unto my voice, and unto the voice of my servants whom I have appointed to lead my people, behold, verily I say unto you, they shall not be moved out of their place.
Look at the order STT, Christ FIRST, servants SECOND.

But again you go off on a tangent thinking I'm saying something that I'm not, Ill emphasize my quote that you used so you can easily see what I mean. I will even underline, BOLD it for you and color it so you cannot misconstrue what I'm saying.
Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

drjme wrote:
Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".
You are correct that we will not receive our salvation directly from a prophet. But we sure find out how we can find salvation in Christ THROUGH a prophet. As Latter Day Saints, our testimony of Christ is dependent on our testimony of the prophets. Like I said earlier, you cannot go to the temple unless you have a testimony of the current prophet. In a way, you cannot partake of eternal, sealing ordinances (saving ordinances) unless you first accept the prophet.

To others on this thread- There are plenty of Christians on this earth that do their best to follow Christ. But guess what? They have missed out on how exactly they can return to the Father. They do not have baptism by authority, they do not have The Holy Ghost by authority, they do not have continual remission of sins through ordinances performed by authority, they do not have their endowments through authority, and they do not have the new and everlasting covenant of marriage by authority.

We find out how we can return to the Father and the Son through prophets who speak for the Father and the Son. Always know the prophet will NEVER lead you astray. If he did, he would be put out of his place.


Then there's the issue of what it means to follow the prophet and what it means to follow Christ. Might I recommend a great book by Stephen E. Robinson: Following Christ.

firend
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by firend »

D&C107


65 Wherefore it must needs be that one be appointed of the High Priesthood to preside over the priesthood, and he shall be called the President of the High Priesthood of the Church; ………….
81 There is not any person belonging to the church who is exempt from this council of the church.
82 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;
83 And their decision upon his head shall be an end of the controversy concerning him.
84 Thus, none shall be exempted from the justice and the laws of God, that all things may be done in order and solemnity before him, according to truth and righteousness.

This sounds to me like God is saying we have a responsibility to check our leaders. Just cannot wrap my head around so many people being some of Apollos, some of Cephas, some of whoever, but not God. How can a man put his trust in man? I know monson has the keys, and I support him in righteousness, but I will not support Monson 100% in every walk of life because he is not perfect. If I obeyed his example 100% I would still be less than 100%. I am glad to help him since he needs it, but my master is not a man. Would a perfect God command man to obey anything less than perfect? If monson is 99.9% perfect would God still have us obey the other .1%?

The reality is most people who say to follow your leaders no matter what are just wanting to gain great rewards for being minimally responsible. The IRONY is they themselves do not obey all the council of the leaders. They only use that as an excuse. How many times at church to people say we follow the prophet, feel comforted in their choice, but then ignore his council.

If you say you follow the prophet than you had better search out all he has said, write it down, and obey it otherwise you play the hypocrite.

What part of follow God and help the prophet does not make sense?

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

InfoWarrior82 wrote:
drjme wrote:
Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".
You are correct that we will not receive our salvation directly from a prophet. But we sure find out how we can find salvation in Christ THROUGH a prophet. As Latter Day Saints, our testimony of Christ is dependent on our testimony of the prophets. Like I said earlier, you cannot go to the temple unless you have a testimony of the current prophet. In a way, you cannot partake of eternal, sealing ordinances (saving ordinances) unless you first accept the prophet.

To others on this thread- There are plenty of Christians on this earth that do their best to follow Christ. But guess what? They have missed out on how exactly they can return to the Father. They do not have baptism by authority, they do not have The Holy Ghost by authority, they do not have continual remission of sins through ordinances performed by authority, they do not have their endowments through authority, and they do not have the new and everlasting covenant of marriage by authority.

We find out how we can return to the Father and the Son through prophets who speak for the Father and the Son. Always know the prophet will NEVER lead you astray. If he did, he would be put out of his place.


Then there's the issue of what it means to follow the prophet and what it means to follow Christ. Might I recommend a great book by Stephen E. Robinson: Following Christ.
There is a lot more needed than receiving these ordainces from a man. They need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit. That sometimes happens years after an ordaince or in many cases never happens. The physical ordaince is a key, but having a key does not mean you entered into the door.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:7

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead
.

The connection to heaven must be made to validate the ordaince made on earth. So many miss that part and assume all has been done when they receive the ordaince from a man.

I hear, all the time, I do not need to worry because the prophet has not said anything about, secret combinations, treatment of the poor, sealing of ordainces by the Holy Spirit,....................fill in blank.

It should concern us all that the Book of Mormon says, we are ripe for destruction because we treat the poor badly, walk in pride, which keeps us from Christ, err in doctine, care more about fancy clothes and buildings than we care for the poor, seeking the praise of the world over seeking after Christ, ( sound like us lately?), being guilty of perscutions, malice and stife, polluting the Holy church of God. Nephi says only a very few are the humble folowers of Christ and even they err because of the precepts of man. Basically, we are all in big trouble.

I believe Pres Monson holds the keys, but I think very few are using them. God is testing us, seeing if we recoginize our wickedness or if we think we are righteous. Entering in the church is only the first part of the rifining process.
Matthew 13: 47 ¶Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
We sort ourselves into keepers or those who are burned. The Book of Mormon says there are very few keepers among us.

AGStacker
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AGStacker »

Seek the Truth wrote:
AGStacker wrote: 1) Is president Monson an actual prophet of God? If so what scriptures support this? How did he become president of the Church? Is president the same thing as prophet? Are they different? What are the fruits of a prophet? Does president Monson have any of these fruits?
Joseph Smith nearly half a dozen times said that he was a prophet based on his testimony of Jesus alone, full stop, no mention of visions or ordinations (TPJS index, "testimony") or anything else.

If a man has the testimony of Jesus and has the Keys of the Presidency he is The Prophet, full stop, end of story.

The testimony of Jesus is Jesus' actual testimony given to you by Him in person hence the saying "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". So yes in this sense Joseph was a prophet like any prophet before him.
If he isn't clearly this has HUGE implications because people are told over and over again, like we all know we are, that if we follow the prophet we'll make it to the Celestial kingdom. What if we're wrong?
Then Jesus would be wrong too.

D&C 84.

36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.


You can follow the prophet right into heaven. It's sort of a relay race.

These verses prove nothing. Who is his servant? How does one become His servant? How do we know that he is His servant? Again Seek, how is the president of the Church chosen and does president equate to a prophet of God? Show me with the scriptures.
What if Nephi's warning for us to not trust in the arm of flesh means no man? Would a president of the Church be included? Would a prophet of God be included? Should we follow any man or Christ alone?
Well, Joseph Smith would have a lot of explaining to do. Joseph Smith said the man John was the sole legal administrator on earth and the jews were to obey him or be damned. Obey. They were to obey a man with authority.

John did in fact have authority. He was called of God. Called directly by God. Don't you see? The priesthood leaders didn't call John but God alone. Caiaphas didn't ordain John to his calling. John was the sole person to obey simply because his ministry proceeded the Saviors. I don't know exactly when John was killed, I just don't recall, but when Christ's ministry began you would have followed Him alone and not John.

Joseph Smith also said that there is no salvation without a legal administrator, and that when one was present even an angel cannot baptize. John the angel conferred JS and OC with priesthood, and then they had to reconfer each other by commandment(JSH 1:70 or so) (all of this can be found in the TPJS index, "legal administrator")

This is correct. I don't disagree with this. The ordinances are received from the Church alone but the ordinances are a type of things. You receive the authority from the Church now go get power.

Paul taught that Jesus gave us apostles, prophets, teachers and so forth. The question must be asked, why then did God send us prophets and apostles if prophets and apostles are not needed at all? Why then were they sent?

As for the arm of flesh, it says the precepts of men are just fine as given by the Holy Ghost in 2 Nephi. Jesus also says that whether the words of his servants or his own voice, it is the same (D&C 1:35-38)

Jesus said whatever is said through the Holy Ghost, something the correlation committee clearly leaves out of its manuals, are His words.
Also, is it evil to ask by whom or where a man got his authority?
Probably not. I think though that ultimately this will be determined by prayer. I think people should pray to know if Thomas Monson is a Prophet of God if they are unsure. No other answer will really satisfy.
Last edited by AGStacker on April 10th, 2013, 10:28 am, edited 3 times in total.

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InfoWarrior82
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Thomas wrote: There is a lot more needed than receiving these ordainces from a man. They need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit. That sometimes happens years after an ordaince or in many cases never happens. The physical ordaince is a key, but having a key does not mean you entered into the door.
Doctrine and Covenants 132:7

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead
.

The connection to heaven must be made to validate the ordaince made on earth. So many miss that part and assume all has been done when they receive the ordaince from a man.

I hear, all the time, I do not need to worry because the prophet has not said anything about, secret combinations, treatment of the poor, sealing of ordainces by the Holy Spirit,....................fill in blank.

It should concern us all that the Book of Mormon says, we are ripe for destruction because we treat the poor badly, walk in pride, which keeps us from Christ, err in doctine, care more about fancy clothes and buildings than we care for the poor, seeking the praise of the world over seeking after Christ, ( sound like us lately?), being guilty of perscutions, malice and stife, polluting the Holy church of God. Nephi says only a very few are the humble folowers of Christ and even they err because of the precepts of man. Basically, we are all in big trouble.

I believe Pres Monson holds the keys, but I think very few are using them. God is testing us, seeing if we recoginize our wickedness or if we think we are righteous. Entering in the church is only the first part of the rifining process.
Matthew 13: 47 ¶Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
We sort ourselves into keepers or those who are burned. The Book of Mormon says there are very few keepers among us.

Can't disagree with you there!

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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by sbsion »

firend wrote:D&C107
62 And inasmuch as a President of the High Priesthood shall transgress, he shall be had in remembrance before the common council of the church, who shall be assisted by twelve counselors of the High Priesthood;


What part of follow God and help the prophet does not make sense?

did you just answer your own question? ;)

eric
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Posts: 565

Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

Thomas wrote:
eric wrote:Yes, and this Apostle quoted a Prophet from the Book of Mormon - but, nay; we do NOT follow the prophets, living or dead, now do we??

I think there is toxicity to following the Prophets by many on this forum. We follow them because they lead us to Christ. Many Prophets follow other Prophets, such as Nephi exhorting us to follow the words of Isaiah. Never once did Christ condemn some of the earlier BoM prophets for what they had said. Many here speak as if Christ will return one day and rebuke the existing leadership for having led us astray. I think not - and many here are deluded and have gone astray in their thinking; believing that this will be the case. I know an apostate spirit when I see one, and its present here. Most who rail on tithing, also rail on the existing leadership - and they do so at their own peril.

Do not shoot me, though. I am just the messenger. I tend to always be conservative and err on the side of being cautious rather than cast stones first, and then attempt to pull those stones back after having already done the damage. In a public forum, I would cast aspersions on chosen servants with care and caution - and remember that you will be sitting or standing in front of those whom you seek to condemn asking whether you can move forward in the kingdom one day. The answer may well not be what you expect if you are not careful. Just sayin'.
Eric, just who has bad mouthed the brethern? I guess you seem to be on some kind of doctorinal crusade. This thread has been about the doctrine of follow the prophet and if it is scriptual, or not.

As far as setting in front of the brothern, for judement, All I can say is huh??? :- =; My judge will be Christ, who employs no servant at the gate. I know his judgement will tempered with mercy. I will ask for mercy and not judgement. You can ask for judgement if you want.
2 Nephi 9:41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
I don't know were you get judgement from the brethern. As for my words, on the internet, I hope all will pay heed to the following scripture:
2 Nephi 27: 31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off;

32 And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.
Many here seem it is their holy mission to call people out for a word. Look for inquity in people's opinions. Why not live and let live. We all err, in our knowledge. Christ will judge my heart and not make me an offender for a word.
Wow - I guess we do have a doctrinal divide going on here. Seems that, under the direction of Christ, the twelve tribes will be judged by the original twelve apostles of the Old World and the twelve from the Americas will judge those from this continent (that were alive in the Meridian of Time, at least) and those of each dispensation will have the keys to judge those over whom they were given stewardship.

And yet again, I expound error and biased thinking against the Brethren by a member of this forum. As for Joseph, who was given the doctrine for this dispensation, we will be judged of him, as well, under the direction of the Savior. Thus, the necessity of the death of the testator of each dispensation to seal their testimony with their blood, when it has not been received due to hardness of heart and haughtiness of soul. As for my role? I am bearing pure witness to all on this forum who will not endure sound doctrine that you will be held accountable for every word that proceeds forth from your mouths (keyboards) that is in contradiction to sound principle and to what our modern leaders have expounded. I leave my witness in Jesus' name, amen.

eric
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Posts: 565

Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

InfoWarrior82 wrote:
drjme wrote:
Christ never said 'come unto my prophets and follow them." He said, "come unto ME , listen to my Fathers witness, listen to My scriptures and Word, listen to My prophets and come unto Me, that I may give you life".
You are correct that we will not receive our salvation directly from a prophet. But we sure find out how we can find salvation in Christ THROUGH a prophet. As Latter Day Saints, our testimony of Christ is dependent on our testimony of the prophets. Like I said earlier, you cannot go to the temple unless you have a testimony of the current prophet. In a way, you cannot partake of eternal, sealing ordinances (saving ordinances) unless you first accept the prophet.

To others on this thread- There are plenty of Christians on this earth that do their best to follow Christ. But guess what? They have missed out on how exactly they can return to the Father. They do not have baptism by authority, they do not have The Holy Ghost by authority, they do not have continual remission of sins through ordinances performed by authority, they do not have their endowments through authority, and they do not have the new and everlasting covenant of marriage by authority.

We find out how we can return to the Father and the Son through prophets who speak for the Father and the Son. Always know the prophet will NEVER lead you astray. If he did, he would be put out of his place.


Then there's the issue of what it means to follow the prophet and what it means to follow Christ. Might I recommend a great book by Stephen E. Robinson: Following Christ.

Well-said, InfoWarrior!

I like your name, as well. It really is a War of info - or dis-info, as the case may be.....

Thomas
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Posts: 4622

Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

eric wrote:
Thomas wrote:
eric wrote:Yes, and this Apostle quoted a Prophet from the Book of Mormon - but, nay; we do NOT follow the prophets, living or dead, now do we??

I think there is toxicity to following the Prophets by many on this forum. We follow them because they lead us to Christ. Many Prophets follow other Prophets, such as Nephi exhorting us to follow the words of Isaiah. Never once did Christ condemn some of the earlier BoM prophets for what they had said. Many here speak as if Christ will return one day and rebuke the existing leadership for having led us astray. I think not - and many here are deluded and have gone astray in their thinking; believing that this will be the case. I know an apostate spirit when I see one, and its present here. Most who rail on tithing, also rail on the existing leadership - and they do so at their own peril.

Do not shoot me, though. I am just the messenger. I tend to always be conservative and err on the side of being cautious rather than cast stones first, and then attempt to pull those stones back after having already done the damage. In a public forum, I would cast aspersions on chosen servants with care and caution - and remember that you will be sitting or standing in front of those whom you seek to condemn asking whether you can move forward in the kingdom one day. The answer may well not be what you expect if you are not careful. Just sayin'.
Eric, just who has bad mouthed the brethern? I guess you seem to be on some kind of doctorinal crusade. This thread has been about the doctrine of follow the prophet and if it is scriptual, or not.

As far as setting in front of the brothern, for judement, All I can say is huh??? :- =; My judge will be Christ, who employs no servant at the gate. I know his judgement will tempered with mercy. I will ask for mercy and not judgement. You can ask for judgement if you want.
2 Nephi 9:41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.
I don't know were you get judgement from the brethern. As for my words, on the internet, I hope all will pay heed to the following scripture:
2 Nephi 27: 31 For assuredly as the Lord liveth they shall see that the terrible one is brought to naught, and the scorner is consumed, and all that watch for iniquity are cut off;

32 And they that make a man an offender for a word, and lay a snare for him that reproveth in the gate, and turn aside the just for a thing of naught.
Many here seem it is their holy mission to call people out for a word. Look for inquity in people's opinions. Why not live and let live. We all err, in our knowledge. Christ will judge my heart and not make me an offender for a word.
Wow - I guess we do have a doctrinal divide going on here. Seems that, under the direction of Christ, the twelve tribes will be judged by the original twelve apostles of the Old World and the twelve from the Americas will judge those from this continent (that were alive in the Meridian of Time, at least) and those of each dispensation will have the keys to judge those over whom they were given stewardship.

And yet again, I expound error and biased thinking against the Brethren by a member of this forum. As for Joseph, who was given the doctrine for this dispensation, we will be judged of him, as well, under the direction of the Savior. Thus, the necessity of the death of the testator of each dispensation to seal their testimony with their blood, when it has not been received due to hardness of heart and haughtiness of soul. As for my role? I am bearing pure witness to all on this forum who will not endure sound doctrine that you will be held accountable for every word that proceeds forth from your mouths (keyboards) that is in contradiction to sound principle and to what our modern leaders have expounded. I leave my witness in Jesus' name, amen.
Wow! Sounds like I already have been judged. No need for any further judgement for me. I hope Christ is a little more forgiving then you are. Fortunately, I know he is.

As for my error, I guess I will again refer to the Book of Mormon, the most correct book in the world.
2 Nephi 9:41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

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