Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Thomas »

seek the truth wrote:
As I have said before, I have no concept of where this comes from. My experience in the Church must be very different. I see people doing their best to do what has to be done to gain their reward (grace/obedience, whatever floats your boat, or put in the wording you prefer), some lukewarm folks, people going in and out of being lukewarm, and people that will fall away.

Galations 5: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
We need to be led by the spirit to be freed from the law. All who are under the law are condemned by the law. That is why, I am so against the follow the prophet theme, given by so many memebers.
2 Nephi 28:
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
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Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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(-|
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Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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Thomas wrote: My opinion is we are much like the Pharisees. What you are describing does not save us.
Galations 5: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
We need to be led by the spirit to be freed from the law. All who are under the law are condemned by the law.
Then I will restate. I know many people in the Church trying to live by the Spirit.
That is why, I am so against the follow the prophet theme, given by so many members.
What would you like us to do with the Prophet.
The Book of Mormon and Bible give us so many warnings of our failing status. We are warned so many time of our impending destruction but most members want to cry" all is well" Do I really need to quote the scripture again? I guess so because nobody seems to get it.
2 Nephi 28:
21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
I believe in the scriptures. I believe the warnings are given to us, today. Works do not save. Yet everybody wants to keep on saying all is well.
Yes, it seems to be very misunderstood scripture in certain areas. Anyone who thinks their status is assured simply by being in a herd is certainly in trouble. I think this verse applies to those people, of which there certainly are a number.

However, in Enoch's Zion of the Nephites Zion post Christ things were pretty well indeed. I think that is the state we all strive for and all would probably be well in those Zions. I think that is the goal, for all to be well in Zion. To live by every word from God, to be a spiritual person among spiritual people.

I don't find "everyone" saying all is well. In Utah, sure I see that here and there. In some families in the current ward. Group affiliation is good enough. It won't be;

Personally, like Joseph Smith, I rejoice that I am fortunate to live in a time where Prophets are on the earth. Why would I turn it into a bad thing? :-\

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

Thomas wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:Ok. They were also foreordained as I recall.
What about Caiaphas. Was he foreordained as well?
He could have been called and not chosen, I wouldn't really know.
Keep in mind that Christ confined his ministry to God's covenant people. So was Caiaphas foreordained to kill Christ
I haven't got any idea. Do you? Anyone?
or was he foreordained as the leader of the church. One like Moses.
He could have been called and not chosen, I wouldn't really know.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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I believe the prophet is doing the job God wants him to do. That is to bring as many as possible into the wider net. I think it is fine we follow him. It is a problem, if we think all we have to do is follow him. It becomes a stumbling block at that point. Self righteousness becomes a stumbling block. We need our own spiritual guidence.

I think the two factions on the site are not antis and brothernites. It is the all is well camp and the all is not well camp.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

Thomas wrote:I believe the prophet is doing the job God wants him to do. That is to bring as many as possible into the wider net. I think it is fine we follow him. It is a problem, if we think all we have to do is follow him.

As has been said a number of times, if you don't seek Christ then you really aren't following the Prophet.
It becomes a stumbling block at that point. Self righteousness becomes a stumbling block. We need our own spiritual guidence.
Self righteousness knows no partisan affiliation.
I think the two factions on the site are not antis and brothernites. It is the all is well camp and the all is not well camp.
No self righteousness there. ;)

There are camps that thinks the prophet is not a prophet, if you don't see God you don't have any priesthood, the Church botches basic teachings, apostles may be frauds, etc. That goes into other areas.

AshleyB
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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Is it all is well then seek?

I am not trying to bring the church down or hurt anyone's testimony. I would hope everyone's testimony would be strong enough to survive, all is not well and try to take the steps to rectify our errors. It seems God has not directed the prophet in this area, right now.

I apoligize for my pride. I know, I let it get the best of me at times. It is hard to get your feelings accross without hurting others. I wonder about some of the exchanges between Christ and the Pharisees. He was quite blunt with them at times and offended them, with his bluntness but we know Christ led a perfect life.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

Thomas wrote:Is it all is well then seek?

I am not trying to bring the church down or hurt anyone's testimony. I would hope everyone's testimony would be strong enough to survive, all is not well and try to take the steps to rectify our errors. It seems God has not directed the prophet in this area, right now.

I apoligize for my pride. I know, I let it get the best of me at times. It is hard to get your feelings accross without hurting others. I wonder about some of the exchanges between Christ and the Pharisees. He was quite blunt with them at times and offended them, with his bluntness but we know Christ led a perfect life.
hey I like it blunt, I'm operating under constraints here. ;)

I don't really know anyone who thinks "all is well". Most people know the worldliness and sin that infests us. Yes there are some who think being Mormon qualifies them, or having a temple recommend, but I think that is a portion. Not any of those here I would think.

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skmo
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by skmo »

Seek the Truth wrote:
Thomas wrote:Seek the truth, I apoligize if I have misunderstood your postion. Many have stated that, if a person holds the postion that Joesph Smith held, in the church he started, that person cannot lead us astray.
I'm not sure I've ever heard about that. If one was an authorized President of the Church with a testimony of Jesus you are the real deal, full stop as far as we're concerned. Can this person "lead us astray"? Probably not. Anyone not authorized is another story...
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. God bless you” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13)

davedan
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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1. Am I hearing people draw parallels between current LDS leadership and Jewish Pharisee's and Ciaphas at the time of Christ????

2. The Jewish Leadership at the time of Christ WAS in a state of apostasy.

3. LDS Leadership today is NOT in a state of apostasy. We will bare the kingdom off triumphant into the Millennium.

4. John the Baptist who had the rights to be the High Priest (son of Zechariah) taught "in the wilderness".

5. Jesus has the right to criticize whomever He wants. He is judge.

6. Paul apologized for calling Ananias a "whitewashed wall". Speaking evil of the leadership even if corrupt was still a sin.

7. We need to have the humility to submit to God, God's authority, and God's leadership. Some people just can't stand for anyone to tell them what to do. Easier to imagine that everyone else is apostate but you are following the spirit.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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@-)
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AshleyB
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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The BOM does make it clear that the gentiles will reject the fulness. I believe it's clear that has already happened. The other interesting thing is that other groups who fell into apostasy NEVER recognized they had done so. They always thought themselves to be righteous and they always thought their leaders we're righteous too. The scriptures make it clear that the people can keep the lower law and yet be wicked. With knowing these things it should should make people more concerned about where we are and more apt to repent. Personally, I don't care what other people think or don't think about that the end of the day. I do think having a recognition of our errors does help but the important thing is that we all repent and truly come unto Christ. If some people feel inclined to place more emphases on Christ and less in man then it really doesn't matter if they are receiving Christ and the true messages he sends through the imperfect men and women he uses. We should all not be so concerned with whether so and so loves the brethren or denver or what have you as much as we do or the way we do. What we should worry about is whether we love Christ the way we ought to. Once we figure that out we will be of one heart and one mind even inspite of some different views we may have. We are not asked to be robots. But we are asked to love one another and to love Him.

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BroJones
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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What was the name of the book in which Stephen Covey spoke of the importance of being Christ-centered? Spiritual Roots, I think. Anyway, he became an Area Seventy -- and I strongly agree with his book that we need to work on becoming Christ-centered and NOT:

1. Church-centered
2. Friends-centered'
3. Work-centered
4. Enemy-centered
and so on. He went through and explained.
On point 1 -- he noted that the brethren have said that the Church is "scaffolding" for building up the sealed-together-family order. IIRC. I like that term "scaffolding" -- I think President Harold B. Lee used it in reference to the Church also.

Thus, we need to avoid becoming "Church-centered" while instead becoming Christ-centered. There is a difference!

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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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WHEN.....................he speaks as a prophet

MsEva
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by MsEva »

DrJones wrote:What was the name of the book in which Stephen Covey spoke of the importance of being Christ-centered? Spiritual Roots, I think. Anyway, he became an Area Seventy -- and I strongly agree with his book that we need to work on becoming Christ-centered and NOT:

1. Church-centered
2. Friends-centered'
3. Work-centered
4. Enemy-centered
and so on. He went through and explained.
On point 1 -- he noted that the brethren have said that the Church is "scaffolding" for building up the sealed-together-family order. IIRC. I like that term "scaffolding" -- I think President Harold B. Lee used it in reference to the Church also.

Thus, we need to avoid becoming "Church-centered" while instead becoming Christ-centered. There is a difference!
I believe the book is "The Divine Center" and I agree with you and Steven Covey about striving to be Christ Centered.

sbsion
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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Christ is PERFECT, and IS the fullness of the gospel, the Church is perfect in-as-much as the amount of the gospel that is allowed for imperfect people that doesn't "injure" the eternal progression, hence, and imperfect person, ie a prophet

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

AshleyB wrote:The BOM does make it clear that the gentiles will reject the fulness.
But which gentiles? Gentiles comprise 99.9% of planet earth.
I believe it's clear that has already happened. The other interesting thing is that other groups who fell into apostasy NEVER recognized they had done so. They always thought themselves to be righteous and they always thought their leaders we're righteous too.
I'm not sure about that. Often times they plunged into idolatry and orgies and whatnot.

Seek the Truth
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by Seek the Truth »

skmo wrote:
Seek the Truth wrote:
Thomas wrote:Seek the truth, I apoligize if I have misunderstood your postion. Many have stated that, if a person holds the postion that Joesph Smith held, in the church he started, that person cannot lead us astray.
I'm not sure I've ever heard about that. If one was an authorized President of the Church with a testimony of Jesus you are the real deal, full stop as far as we're concerned. Can this person "lead us astray"? Probably not. Anyone not authorized is another story...
“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so he will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty. God bless you” (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13)
I took Thomas to be saying that it was possible that an unauthorized person could attain Joseph Smith's position. I don't think anyone has said such a person cannot lead us astray.

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BroJones
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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MsEva wrote:...

I believe the book is "The Divine Center" and I agree with you and Steven Covey about striving to be Christ Centered.
Right -- thanks for the reminder. Great book.
One concern is that too frequent a repetition of "Follow the Prophet" when not balanced by "Follow the Savior" may lead people to other centers than Jesus.

Fortunately, we have the sacrament in which we promise to "Always remember HIM" -- meaning Jesus (not any mortal).

When Jesus is the GOAL, as Paul said, then it becomes straightforward to always remember Him.

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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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davedan wrote:1. Am I hearing people draw parallels between current LDS leadership and Jewish Pharisee's and Ciaphas at the time of Christ????

2. The Jewish Leadership at the time of Christ WAS in a state of apostasy.

3. LDS Leadership today is NOT in a state of apostasy. We will bare the kingdom off triumphant into the Millennium.

4. John the Baptist who had the rights to be the High Priest (son of Zechariah) taught "in the wilderness".

5. Jesus has the right to criticize whomever He wants. He is judge.

6. Paul apologized for calling Ananias a "whitewashed wall". Speaking evil of the leadership even if corrupt was still a sin.

7. We need to have the humility to submit to God, God's authority, and God's leadership. Some people just can't stand for anyone to tell them what to do. Easier to imagine that everyone else is apostate but you are following the spirit.

We should indeed, like Christ, submit to our priestly authorities. My main concern is as follows:

1) Is president Monson an actual prophet of God? If so what scriptures support this? How did he become president of the Church? Is president the same thing as prophet? Are they different? What are the fruits of a prophet? Does president Monson have any of these fruits?

If he isn't clearly this has HUGE implications because people are told over and over again, like we all know we are, that if we follow the prophet we'll make it to the Celestial kingdom. What if we're wrong? What if Nephi's warning for us to not trust in the arm of flesh means no man? Would a president of the Church be included? Would a prophet of God be included? Should we follow any man or Christ alone?

Also, is it evil to ask by whom or where a man got his authority?
Last edited by AGStacker on April 9th, 2013, 10:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Thomas
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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(-|
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AGStacker
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

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davedan wrote:I vote this a negative-biased thread

What good is a prophet unless we obey what the Lord tells us through His prophet.

D&C5:10 But this generation shall have my word through you;
That verse you quote is referring to Joseph Smith alone.

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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by AshleyB »

Seek the Truth wrote:
AshleyB wrote:The BOM does make it clear that the gentiles will reject the fulness.
But which gentiles? Gentiles comprise 99.9% of planet earth.
I believe it's clear that has already happened. The other interesting thing is that other groups who fell into apostasy NEVER recognized they had done so. They always thought themselves to be righteous and they always thought their leaders we're righteous too.
I'm not sure about that. Often times they plunged into idolatry and orgies and whatnot.

You are free to believe as you wish seek. You can apply the Bom's warnings to only other groups of people who God knew would never read it if you want. I think it is a big mistake to try and exclude ourselves. In fact, that sounds familiar to me.



16 Holy God, we believe that thou hast separated us from our brethren; and we do not believe in the tradition of our brethren, which was handed down to them by the childishness of their fathers; but we believe that thou hast elected us to be thy holy children; and also thou hast made it known unto us that there shall be no Christ.

17 But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God.

18 And again we thank thee, O God, that we are a chosen and a holy people. Amen.

19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

God's children are constantly condemned for relying too much on flesh and for allowing the prophet to stand between them and Christ so that they do not come unto Christ and receive of the fulness. This is exactly what the Jews were condemned for but we somehow think that could never be the case with us. I have never heard them condemned for believing too much in Christ. Only for the opposite.

Again, if other people want to place their faith in men that's their business. Im not going to judge but I will say as long as a person continues to do that they will never be able to receive of the fulness and truly receive Christ.


As for the second part of what you said about Idolatry and oragies. Relying on the arm of flesh and desiring more to be subject to a man then you desire to come unto Christ IS Idolatry. As far as oragies go.. that has been a part of church history as well. Not that debating these points really matter. The point is we should all recognize we are all beggers before the Lord and we should repent. Hardening our hearts to the message of repentance or thinking we are a chosen people destined to be saved while all around us are destined to perish sounds a lot like the Zoramites to me. And God considered them hard hearted and prideful for it.


As far as the op goes... Following any man has never been known to be a commandment. The Jews we're cursed for it and Moses was taken out of their midst. They were left with the Priest Aaron who the lower Priesthood and law was named after which was after a law of carnal commandments and symbols and had no power to bring a man into Christ's Presence. This was the same priest who danced around the golden calf with the people. Joseph and the Patriarch Hyrum were taken out of the saints midst and they were left with confusion and then eventually Brigham. Brigham was a good man but lest face it. He was no Joseph or Moses. He was more like Aaron. Not only that but they wandered and endured sore cursings. If one truly desires to understand and know the truth of where we stand as a people they will see the parralells between their day and ours uncanny. We are a church and a people under condemnation. WHY? Because we have treated lightly the things we have received and we have treated lightly the bom and the covenants. We are told when we repent and we not only SAY but DO what the bom teaches and what we are taught and keep our covenants then we will come out from under this condemnation. It seems odd to me to admit that in one breath we are under condemnations for these things, while assuming the warnings in the bom about rejecting the fulness are about all those other people who don't read the bom. It seems to defy logic. All those other people are likely going to receive more mercy than the ones who know of the bom and know of the greater covenants and fail to receive them. This is why the Lord says the destruction will begin upon his house. I would be very careful in assuming the warnings are not about the people destined to read the book. But alas, I digress...


Here is something that IS a commandment and I am more concerned about making sure I follow it.

35 Thou shalt have no other God before me.
Last edited by AshleyB on April 9th, 2013, 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric
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Re: Is "Following Prophet" a "Commandment"

Post by eric »

davedan wrote:I vote this a negative-biased thread

What good is a prophet unless we obey what the Lord tells us through His prophet.

D&C5:10 But this generation shall have my word through you;
Yes, follow the Prophet in all things when the Spirit has witnessed to what has been said. I just listened to hours of Prophets speaking where the Spirit was there in spades. I got my answer.....

"Did our hearts not burn within us....." Very simple. There are many who are "past feeling" who are driven to and fro because they are not capable of feeling the Spirit..... :-\

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