LDS Freedom Forum

Original_Intent wrote:There is nothing that needs to be reconciled.

Nothing that Elder Bednar said conflicts with those scriptures - anyone that thinks there is either did not understand Elder Bednar's talk, does not understand the scriptures, or is being a devil's advocate, and while claiming to be "trying to reconcile" is actually trying to cast Elder Bednar as being in conflict with the scriptures.

Only Daryl can say which of these categories he falls into. Putting little disclaimers such as "I'm not saying that Elder Bednar is wrong... (wink, wink) does not change the intent, and again, only Daryl and the Lord can know his intent.

If reconciliation is really what you want I will spell out what Elder Bednar said: Having faith to be healed DOES NOT mean faith to be healed regardless of what God wants - faith to be healed means faith to know the Lord's will and accept it, whether His will is for you to be healed or not.

It's not denying the power to heal, nor is it just saying "Well, whether I am healed or not, it's simply the Lord's will and I accept it." It is nothing so passive. It is that you seek and know the Lord's will, and then belief in the goodness and the wisdom of that outcome, and believing that it WILL come to pass (whether that is to be healed OR not to be healed.)Hope that is clear. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I managed to understand this. I am pretty sure that the spirit would have been happy to clarify if reconciling his talk to the scripture was your HEART'S DESIRE.

In short, by talking about both faith to be healed and faith not to be healed (or in other words to maintain faith in the Lord even if you are not to be healed) Elder Bednar said nothing that equates to the scary, red quotations (or should I all them accusations?) in the OP. Not by a country mile.

It seems like these forums standard is becoming "Say anything good about Denver or any of the other voices outside the heirarchy or say anything disparaging, critical, or "seeking reconciliation with the scriptures" about anyone in the heirarchy that you want.

If anyone dared imply that Denver was out of compliance with the scriptures on anything (and I'm not, I've loved everything of Bro. Snuffer's that I have read) but some of his more ardent followers are downright rabid regarding anyone questioning anything about Denver himself or even suggesting that some of his followers are on the overzealous side.

Original_Intent wrote:

Daryl wrote:...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Look, call me condemning, to me the above, especially the highlights, can only be interpreted as "Wo unto Elder Bednar for (doing the stuff in red text)!"

Now if anyone wants to take that as innocent "I have a question, I need reconciled", that's your prerogative. To me, it falls into a pattern that a few posters seem to tend towards, which is all too much like the "innocent" questions of the scribes and pharisees asking "should we pay taxes to the Romans?" "What is the greatest law?" and "behold here are these six ontis of silver, which I will give to you if you deny the Christ." Now if that gets me booted off LDSFF, that's fine. I said before, only Daryl and the Lord know his intent - you can call that MY disclaimer if you want. But when you see people (not Daryl in this case) BEARING TESITMONY that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has....I think that's about the time that if that kind of attitude is allowed, it is time to remove the "LDS" from "LDSFF". And I find it ironic that I get booted for suggesting that some of Denver's follower's go too far and engage in idol worship, yet those who still have faith in the church leadership are told the same thing ALL THE TIME with no repercussions!

And I'm not angry, I am just in shock at the hypocrisy and the changes to LDSFF in the past year or so. It's no wonder that so many people have left and quit posting, I guess they just saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did.

Original_Intent wrote:

Daryl wrote:...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Look, call me condemning, to me the above, especially the highlights, can only be interpreted as "Wo unto Elder Bednar for (doing the stuff in red text)!"

Now if anyone wants to take that as innocent "I have a question, I need reconciled", that's your prerogative. To me, it falls into a pattern that a few posters seem to tend towards, which is all too much like the "innocent" questions of the scribes and pharisees asking "should we pay taxes to the Romans?" "What is the greatest law?" and "behold here are these six ontis of silver, which I will give to you if you deny the Christ." Now if that gets me booted off LDSFF, that's fine. I said before, only Daryl and the Lord know his intent - you can call that MY disclaimer if you want. But when you see people (not Daryl in this case) BEARING TESITMONY that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has....I think that's about the time that if that kind of attitude is allowed, it is time to remove the "LDS" from "LDSFF". And I find it ironic that I get booted for suggesting that some of Denver's follower's go too far and engage in idol worship, yet those who still have faith in the church leadership are told the same thing ALL THE TIME with no repercussions!

And I'm not angry, I am just in shock at the hypocrisy and the changes to LDSFF in the past year or so. It's no wonder that so many people have left and quit posting, I guess they just saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did.

AussieOi wrote:How else do we explain the apparent lack of any of these actual healing miracles?

Moroni 7:37 wrote:37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that miracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made.

AussieOi wrote:How else do we explain the apparent lack of any of these actual healing miracles?

Nephi294 wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

Daryl wrote:...The teachings of Elder Bednar in the last CES broadcast when he talked about having faith not to be healed with this scripture passage. A warning for future generations - us, today!

Disclaimer: I am not saying Elder Bednar is wrong. I am trying to reconcile the scripture with what Elder Bednar professed.

3 Nephi 29:5 Wo unto him that spurneth at the doings of the Lord; yea, wo unto him that shall deny the Christ and his works!

6 Yea, wo unto him that shall deny the revelations of the Lord, and that shall say the Lord no longer worketh by revelation, or by prophecy, or by gifts, or by tongues, or by healings, or by the power of the Holy Ghost!

7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get gain, that there can be no miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become like unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Look, call me condemning, to me the above, especially the highlights, can only be interpreted as "Wo unto Elder Bednar for (doing the stuff in red text)!"

Now if anyone wants to take that as innocent "I have a question, I need reconciled", that's your prerogative. To me, it falls into a pattern that a few posters seem to tend towards, which is all too much like the "innocent" questions of the scribes and pharisees asking "should we pay taxes to the Romans?" "What is the greatest law?" and "behold here are these six ontis of silver, which I will give to you if you deny the Christ." Now if that gets me booted off LDSFF, that's fine. I said before, only Daryl and the Lord know his intent - you can call that MY disclaimer if you want. But when you see people (not Daryl in this case) BEARING TESITMONY that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has....I think that's about the time that if that kind of attitude is allowed, it is time to remove the "LDS" from "LDSFF". And I find it ironic that I get booted for suggesting that some of Denver's follower's go too far and engage in idol worship, yet those who still have faith in the church leadership are told the same thing ALL THE TIME with no repercussions!

And I'm not angry, I am just in shock at the hypocrisy and the changes to LDSFF in the past year or so. It's no wonder that so many people have left and quit posting, I guess they just saw the writing on the wall sooner than I did.

Well said OI!!!

AGStacker wrote:I actually want to know who bore testimony "that they KNOW that none of the twelve or the First Presidency have seen Christ, but Denver has".

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

TZONE wrote:I know what thread your talking about. Its in the Gospel Discussion thread though I am pretty sure. I don't recall someone saying none had seen them though. But maybe I missed that quote.

The thread was about (if I remember correctly) How the Lord leads his church today. Amonhi talked about how the apostles and prophets lead the church just like moses lead the egyptians (through the spirit) and lehi led his family (through the spirit)... Its a great thread even if there was someone that said something like that (which I don't agree with either).

TZONE wrote:

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

Also there is a story of Joseph (quoted by Truman G Madsen on his lectures of Joseph Smith) where Joseph got some of the apostles or saints together and asked them to give a man a blessing. he said "we will give this man a blessing until someone in the circle has faith to heal this man". If I remember correctly they went around the circle 2 or 3 times before someone could heal the man?

Can anyone verify this? I think it applies here. I don't want to listen to 4-10 hours of mp3 files to find it lol.

AGStacker wrote:

TZONE wrote:

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

Also there is a story of Joseph (quoted by Truman G Madsen on his lectures of Joseph Smith) where Joseph got some of the apostles or saints together and asked them to give a man a blessing. he said "we will give this man a blessing until someone in the circle has faith to heal this man". If I remember correctly they went around the circle 2 or 3 times before someone could heal the man?

Can anyone verify this? I think it applies here. I don't want to listen to 4-10 hours of mp3 files to find it lol.

TZONE, that is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. The fault may not lie with the sick but with those administering the blessings. Do they actually have faith, seeing angels type of faith, to heal the sick?

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

Called to Serve wrote:
Also there is a story of Joseph (quoted by Truman G Madsen on his lectures of Joseph Smith) where Joseph got some of the apostles or saints together and asked them to give a man a blessing. he said "we will give this man a blessing until someone in the circle has faith to heal this man". If I remember correctly they went around the circle 2 or 3 times before someone could heal the man?

Can anyone verify this? I think it applies here. I don't want to listen to 4-10 hours of mp3 files to find it lol.

TZONE, that is what I was trying to say earlier in the thread. The fault may not lie with the sick but with those administering the blessings. Do they actually have faith, seeing angels type of faith, to heal the sick?
I believe that we are dependent on Christ even for what we lack in faith. In other words, if a miracle takes place, it's not because I have faith enough alone, but because Christ has mercifully made up for my lack of faith and filled the void. But then that makes me reliant on His will to receive any miracles. Not sure if this is true, but it's a theory I have about faith.

Original_Intent wrote:

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

Again, your tone doesn;t convey a desire for reconciliation to me, but rather pointing out a perceived flaw in an accusatory manner, while trying to maintain an innocent posture that you are just trying to understand.

I would say an example of one of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill person in this manner is the story Elder Bednar tells about himself. True, if this were a debate of logic, this would be considered "circular reasoning" and would be invalid. I guess the fundamental question is "Do you accept Elder Bednar as the Lord's anointed?" If the answer is yes, then the example that he gave at the fireside is an instance. If you do not, or if the point of your post is to question that or to maintain such a position is non-scriptural (which is progress from your OP where you implied that it was anti-scriptural) then I suppose that the only satisfactory answer for you will come from a higher authority than any you will find posting here.

Thomas wrote:

Original_Intent wrote:

Daryl wrote:Just a follow-up thought...

Would Jesus say to someone, "Do you have the faith not to be healed"? Maybe there is a scripture where Christ did exactly that. I just don't recall any canonized stories of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill requester in such a way. I'm sure someone with more knowledge in the scriptures would have a reference for us.

I do remember a story where Joseph Smith couldn't physically attend to an ill partitioner so he blessed a hanky and handed it to a priesthood brother and said to deliver it to the ill person and they would be made whole. Many people have ridiculed Joseph for dabbling in metaphysical/witchcraf arts. Until Joseph opened the scriptures and showed where Christ had done the same.

My guess is Christ answers requests for healing with yea, yea or neah, neah. Again I am no scriptorian. Just trying to get my head around Elder Bednar's doctrine.

Again, your tone doesn;t convey a desire for reconciliation to me, but rather pointing out a perceived flaw in an accusatory manner, while trying to maintain an innocent posture that you are just trying to understand.

I would say an example of one of the Lord's anointed propositioning an ill person in this manner is the story Elder Bednar tells about himself. True, if this were a debate of logic, this would be considered "circular reasoning" and would be invalid. I guess the fundamental question is "Do you accept Elder Bednar as the Lord's anointed?" If the answer is yes, then the example that he gave at the fireside is an instance. If you do not, or if the point of your post is to question that or to maintain such a position is non-scriptural (which is progress from your OP where you implied that it was anti-scriptural) then I suppose that the only satisfactory answer for you will come from a higher authority than any you will find posting here.

Anyone who has been through the temple is one of the Lord's annointed.

Daryl wrote:

AGStacker wrote:Daryl, watch this video. The whole video. What this girl says will make you cringe. Don't focus too much on here argument, even though it is important, but what she says about God.

Wo unto her. She is so completely lost in Babylonian myths. When the floods come and the doors are shut, where will her and her viruses go? Straight to hell. Yes, unfortunately if she does not repent from her unabashed pride, she will go to hell for among other things, blatantly and publicly mocking God.