LDS Freedom Forum

Ben McClintock wrote:Another false apology

It's not an apology if you're still accusing the other person, a false accusation at that

Ben, lighten up. The apology should be accepted or rejected by the person it was directed to. Perhaps she is right that he has become more critical. Perhaps he only appears to be. Perhaps he tried to look into a few things and found himself frustrated, so began to let that frustration show.

BrianM wrote:There are always going to be different types of people with different ideas... whether in these 'gospel' discussions or in the 'political' discussions (such as all those that support Romney vs all that support Ron Paul or other)... it's important to not let people's differences cause us to react emotionally - instead we can simply voice our own belief and let it be... you can't change someone else but you can express your own ideas and beliefs and others can choose what they accept or reject.

Amen.

I think we make ourselves (and often others) miserable when we take offense at other people's opinions. I like to read diverse opinions, but I dislike the fighting and arguing that sometimes (often?) appear as people duke it out.

I think what Elder Bednar means, is that sometimes God gives us afflictions for the experience. The whole reason for coming to this planet is to suffer. We came from innocence and not knowing any pain, we had nothing to compare it to.

Read 2 Nephi Chapter2. Lehi breaks it down for us.

Well, I guess I haven't been booted out of this area, just the Heavenly Gift area. Which I find it odd that something I posted outside of HG got me booted from HG, but like I said, if HG is just a sanctuary for people who want to trash the GAs, and that anyone speaking out against that has a "chilling" effect on the free expression of ideas, I definitely don't belong there.

I appreciate those that get where I am coming from, even the moderator that booted me from HG was AWESOME in the way he PMed me and we discussed things. It MAY just be a matter of time before I am permanently booted from all of LDSFF, I hope that isn't the case, but I have kind of felt like I am not welcome since the first time I got banned several weeks ago.

Everyone is soon going to be reaping what they sow. Inspect your seed and choose wisely.

ARP, apology certainly accepted, there was nothing to apologize for. And you are certainly correct about the frustration, although I think you are off as to the cause of the frustration. (Good guess though!)

Original_Intent wrote:ARP, apology certainly accepted, there was nothing to apologize for. And you are certainly correct about the frustration, although I think you are off as to the cause of the frustration. (Good guess though!)

Well, you definitely seemed frustrated, to me. And the reason was totally a wild guess, so I'm not surprised that I was off.

A Random Phrase wrote:

AGStacker wrote:This is what he said: “Even with strong faith, many mountains will not be moved. And not all of the sick and infirmed will be healed. If all opposition were curtailed, if all maladies were removed, then the primary purposes of the Father's plan would be frustrated.”

I see Daryl's concern because of the words, "even with strong faith," being used. I have searched in vain for scriptures that say that if one has strong faith one will not be healed because God wishes them to suffer for some reason. The only caveat to being healed that I see in the scriptures is that if it is their time to die, they will not be healed. All scriptures that talk about healing and faith together are 100% for being healed (if not appointed unto death). Yet, one may not have faith to be healed, and still they could have faith to become the sons of God. It is apparently not a crime, nor a sin to lack faith to be healed.

I also see Elder Bednar's point in that people with strong faith still have trials. I think that is what he was trying to point out - faith does not mean it's ice cream sundaes every day. I think he was trying to give strength to live in this increasingly more wicked world. I think he was trying to help people keep faith in God even when times are very trying, perhaps even when it feels impossible to hold on to God.

As for Daryl, I think he is still in the process of sorting things out in his mind. I think he is trying to figure out exactly where truth lies no matter what person, place, or behavior may be involved. I don't condemn that any more than I condemn Elder Bednar for using words that not everyone accepts. I think we should offer charity, mercy, and respect to both the apostle and to Daryl.

Yes. ARPh, that's what I was trying to say. I think the Lord is giving us the ideal, but He never condemns us for falling short of perfection.

I have been confused many times because the Lord didn't heal me from afflictions, even though he did at other times, just like Nephi. When He did heal me, I just knew that I would be healed and didn't doubt at all. But when I wasn't I would go forth, knowing that He could and wondering why He didn't. Many times I have later seen reasons why I wasn't healed. I realize in retrospect that when it was the Lord's will, I had complete faith, but when it wasn't, I was filled with doubt. So I believe that the faith to be healed comes from knowing it is the Lord's will.

Original_Intent wrote:Well, I guess I haven't been booted out of this area, just the Heavenly Gift area. Which I find it odd that something I posted outside of HG got me booted from HG, but like I said, if HG is just a sanctuary for people who want to trash the GAs, and that anyone speaking out against that has a "chilling" effect on the free expression of ideas, I definitely don't belong there.

I appreciate those that get where I am coming from, even the moderator that booted me from HG was AWESOME in the way he PMed me and we discussed things. It MAY just be a matter of time before I am permanently booted from all of LDSFF, I hope that isn't the case, but I have kind of felt like I am not welcome since the first time I got banned several weeks ago.

Everyone is soon going to be reaping what they sow. Inspect your seed and choose wisely.

ARP, apology certainly accepted, there was nothing to apologize for. And you are certainly correct about the frustration, although I think you are off as to the cause of the frustration. (Good guess though!)

Typing with one hand here, so I'm way behind. Glad you're not booted, by a mod or by your self, OI. You did bring up some good points in your original post and I wish now I'd have focused on them. I've greatly appreciated your insights in the past.

Called to Serve wrote:I have been confused many times because the Lord didn't heal me from afflictions, even though he did at other times, just like Nephi. When He did heal me, I just knew that I would be healed and didn't doubt at all. But when I wasn't I would go forth, knowing that He could and wondering why He didn't. Many times I have later seen reasons why I wasn't healed. I realize in retrospect that when it was the Lord's will, I had complete faith, but when it wasn't, I was filled with doubt. So I believe that the faith to be healed comes from knowing it is the Lord's will.

Something you said, here, reminds me of timing. It may be God's desire that we be healed. We may have the faith to be healed. But the time may not be right. For whatever reason, the healing may be postponed until the best time for it to happen.

I really think that part of "strong faith" includes allowing the Lord to do what He will with our lives . . . even if it hurts.

And I think that may be the point Elder Bednar was trying to make, even though he did not link strong faith with allowing God's will to be done but, instead, linked it with failed healing, failure to move mountains, etc. But he is human, and certainly not able to discern all the ways his words may be taken in a way he did not intend - especially considering the millions of people who may hear/read those words - though the words may be a reflection of how we view things today. But that is a topic for a different forum.

Original_Intent wrote:Well, I guess I haven't been booted out of this area, just the Heavenly Gift area. Which I find it odd that something I posted outside of HG got me booted from HG, but like I said, if HG is just a sanctuary for people who want to trash the GAs, and that anyone speaking out against that has a "chilling" effect on the free expression of ideas, I definitely don't belong there.

I appreciate those that get where I am coming from, even the moderator that booted me from HG was AWESOME in the way he PMed me and we discussed things. It MAY just be a matter of time before I am permanently booted from all of LDSFF, I hope that isn't the case, but I have kind of felt like I am not welcome since the first time I got banned several weeks ago.

Everyone is soon going to be reaping what they sow. Inspect your seed and choose wisely.

ARP, apology certainly accepted, there was nothing to apologize for. And you are certainly correct about the frustration, although I think you are off as to the cause of the frustration. (Good guess though!)

I got booted from the Heavenly gift area for telling someone to go to God for answers and not man. Glad for your perspective here.

Maybe we could stick to the topic rather than discussing why people got booted off of the HG area. That area has always been an invitation only area - if it's not for you, it's not for you -- it was never intended to be a fit for all LDSFF members. If you got booted and think you belong there that discussion should be had in private with the moderator's that manage that area.

FWIW, I have no mal intent. Several people have been enthusiastic about that talk, even our High Coucil speaker just two days ago, so it's been on my mind. Then, this morning our family was reading in 3 Nephi 29. As we read that part, my mind went instantly to Elder Bednar's talk. I couldn't reconcile the two ideas, so I reached out to the online community for insight.

FWIW II- I accept Elder Bednar as an Apostle. Things he has said have blessed my life, right down to talks about how to can pickles. He's a man just like me. We both make mistakes. I accept and love him despite both our weaknesses.

Nan wrote: I got booted from the Heavenly gift area for telling someone to go to God for answers and not man. Glad for your perspective here.

I handled that poorly and am sorry for your hurt feelings. I had intended to PM you but got distracted and then forgot. I'm sorry.

Seems to be a lot of reconciling going on around here.

I happen to love what Elder Bednar taught in his talk. It has been one of the most important lessons that I've learned in this life.

Too often we as members of the church assign too much significance to the circumstances of our life, and the perceived existence or lack of God's intervention in those circumstances. We hear of miracles all the time...from things as simple as "God helped me find my keys", to true healings and manifestations of Godly power. I'm not trying to dismiss the reality of those miracles. But it does set a problem for others. My first wife had a much harder life than I did. She'd lost friends in early childhood to death, then siblings, she'd been abused, and had all sorts of other terrible things. When she heard things like "God helped me find my keys"...it actually made her angry. She thought "you want me to believe that God helped someone find keys, but could send someone to intervene when my sibling accidentally overdosed?"

Her questions got me thinking about the true nature of miracles, and what kind of miracle can be relied upon with the greatest consistency.

Here is what I believe God taught me in answer to that question. Because of the nature of scriptures, there is a natural survivors bias to them. We wouldn't have the records at all if God had not spared a people, and sometimes done so with the accompaniment of great miracles (parting of the red sea, pillars of fire, manna from heaven, burning furnaces, physical healings, Nephi being spared from his brothers, etc). That is because God truly is mighty unto deliverance.

But every single one of those physical manifestations of the power of God unto deliverance is only a type of the truly greatest miracle...spiritual deliverance through the atonement (both deliverance from sins, but also the pain and suffering associated with sickness and suffering of all kinds). Is that not the message of Mark 2:1-12? Deliverance not FROM our trials, but IN them through the unspeakable peace and comfort of God, comfort that only comes when we trust Him (the kind of trust and faith that doesn't require a healing at all, but would rest their confidence in God even if all of heaven and earth seemed to come against them).

Back to scriptural survivors bias. We have plenty of stories of those who were physically delivered by God's mighty hand, because of their faith in Him. But how many more went to their deaths though they had the same faith, and because they died we don't know their story? How many other stories might thre be like the Anti-Nephi-Lehis that went to their deaths while upon their knees trusting in God. How many more like those in Alma 14 who were not spared burning at the stake? How many Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednegos for whom "but if not" was the reality of their statement of trust in God and they were cast in the fiery furnace. How many prophets stories do we not know about who went to preach repentance and were killed, with no record of their preaching remaining? Were it not for Alma, we'd know nothing of Abinidi.

Do we have faith to say "If it so be, our God is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace....BUT IF NOT..." and mean it. Is our faith conditional upon the healing or deliverance that we seek. Will we be disappointed and let down by God if the wayward child doesn't return, if the unfaithful spouse doesn't repent, if our cancer stricken child is not healed, if our unemployment continues? Or is our faith strong enough to not be tied at all, not in the least degree, to the outcome of mere circumstance. Can we say as Job "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in Him"?

This scripture has special meaning to me...."Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. Not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid." The phrase "not as the world giveth, give I unto you" is one thing I have spent considerable time praying about and thinking about. By what conditions would the world assume peace and happiness are obtained? It's safe to argue the world thinks peace and happiness is directly correlated to circumstance...good health, good marriage, wealth, rewarding job, healthy/perfect children, etc. Not only the world, but how often do we equate God's blessings with the same thing. But Christ says "not as the world giveth, give I unto you". God's peace does not come because circumstances are aligned in your favor. Christ promises that his peace is independent of such things. Christ's peace and joy comes even though...in fact ESPECIALLY WHEN...circumstances are seemingly completely against you....but it only comes when we humble submit as a little child.

The greatest miracle of faith in God is not that he changes the circumstances of your life, but that he changes you and your heart. Physical manifestations of God's power are icing on the cake. They most certainly should be sought in faith, but their existence or lack thereof should have no impact on our complete and total trust in God, trust that is offered to him in patience, meekness, long-suffering, etc.

I could go on and on about this. I've written multiple talks on the matter. No one need assume I'm minimizing the faith to be healed or delivered FROM a trial (for such is truly a mighty thing)...but I will always consider such physical/circumstantial outcomes insignificant to the greatest and most consistent miracle that anyone can experience...Spiritual deliverance IN a trial. He offers that one every time, that one is always "according to His will", even when physical deliverance is not.

That is what this talk meant to me, that is why I love it. Too many in our church and in the world in general are disappointed when God fails to fix something for them. Truly the question "Do you have the faith not to be healed?" is a worthy question of us all if it helps us ponder the depth of our trust in Him regardless of circumstance.

Very powerful, Dannyk. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Yes, thank you Dannyk. That was a wonderful post! You put that into words in ways which I will never be able to. We truly need to learn how to have faith, period. Whether we are delivered from our trials or not the Lord will always be there and give us His peace if we seek it.

Thank you DannyK...was like reading words from an angel!

How else do we explain the apparent lack of any of these actual healing miracles?

ok ok ok, I'm going to share something that happened to me today as I have been impressed to share it. miracle. absolute miracle.

some time ago my wife and I prayed in absolute dedication for the Lord to eradicate our debts that have been incurred on us due to injustices by other people.
now some may think I'm crazy or fake but I'm not faking this. We asked the lord to restore the injustices done to us over the last few years that have caused us more and more debt. We asked for a MIRACLE. we prayed for justice. we BELIEVED, we wrote it down, we didn't beg, we trusted, we praised, and we expected, we committed in absolute faith. the spirit told both of us it will happen. no plan, no time frame, just a promise, to wait and be patient and continue in faith never wavering.

Today, someone we owe money (due to an injustice) came to us and said, "we've been praying about this debt and God showed us that we are keeping you in debt slavery and bondage, and so we want to forgive the debt entirely, because we don't want to be responsible for keeping you in bondage."

The debt write off for them was $10,000.........

I said to them, "God? why are you making me cry everyday?" (he's been hitting me with so many awesome experiences lately) and praised God, and thanked these people profusely. oh man Our heavenly Father is so so awesome. and another funny note!! afterwards God said " I answered two of your prayers today."

and I was like which other one?

"well, a debt miracle that you asked for last year, and that prayer you prayed when you were 8 yeas old asking for $10,000 =)) !!"

I KID YOU NOT! I didn't even remember that and it was bought back to my mind in an instant and I remembered clearly that I did pray for that when I was 8! It seems God is not only a miracle worker to those who will have absolute faith and will put it in Him, but also a bit of a joker !!!

This is HONEST. THE glory and PRAISE is to my SAVIOR AND GOD. and I can testify God DOES provide miracles! His will, is our righteous desires. Man, I'm on a different plane right now. NEVER deny or minimize the miracles that God promises!

I just wanted to share this to give praise and Glory to God that I can say before Him, It is all HIM, we think we've got good intentions, but man, HIS intentions are so much better! and whoever reads this can say "God, If you done this miracle for one person, can you do a miracle for me too?"

Nice 1
All praise brother

AGStacker wrote:Daryl, watch this video. The whole video. What this girl says will make you cringe. Don't focus too much on here argument, even though it is important, but what she says about God.

Wo unto her. She is so completely lost in Babylonian myths. When the floods come and the doors are shut, where will her and her viruses go? Straight to hell. Yes, unfortunately if she does not repent from her unabashed pride, she will go to hell for among other things, blatantly and publicly mocking God.

Drjme, that is an awesome post. Thank you for being such an inspiration.

How awesome is it that the Lord remembered your faith at eight years old. Speaks volumes...

Double

Daryl wrote:Drjme, that is an awesome post. Thank you for being such an inspiration.

How awesome is it that the Lord remembered your faith at eight years old. Speaks volumes...

Haha! Yeah that was kind of a funny thing. I remember when I was young I was told by some well meaning ss teacher no doubt, that god loves me an wants to bless me with everything I need. Well I went home that Sunday night and said well I need 10000 dollars. I stayed up all night waiting for it to appear under my bed =)) I was a bit disappointed when t wasn't there. I'm ok about it now B-)

drjme wrote:I just wanted to share this to give praise and Glory to God that I can say before Him, It is all HIM, we think we've got good intentions, but man, HIS intentions are so much better! and whoever reads this can say "God, If you done this miracle for one person, can you do a miracle for me too?"

Amen to that! Again, I hope no one thinks by my post above that I was trying to suggest these miracles don't happen and don't exist. I absolutely do. I've seen and experienced them myself, both healings and other physical deliverance of a miraculous nature, and they've come after sincere prayer and great faith. Praise to God indeed for both ends of the miracle spectrum, both deliverance of a physical nature, and deliverance of a spiritual nature. "Whether it is easier to say to the sick of palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, take up they bed and walk..." They are both part of his great work with each of his children, they are both manifestations of the healing Christ offers through the atonement.

The OP asked how to reconcile Bednar's talk with the scriptures he quoted, and that is why I focused as I did on what I've learned when obstacles and sickness are not removed. Hopefully all of us will pursue the kind of faith that would make both kinds of miracle possible.