LDS Freedom Forum

ajax wrote:

TZONE wrote:Am I not understanding the issue here?

I think part of the issue here is Bro. Bednar's phrase, "do you have the faith not to be healed". This could easily turn into the go to catch-phrase for healing failures, or morph into other things like "do you have faith not to see an angel".

BINGO!!!

TZONE wrote:Sounds to me everyone is nit picking here?

You are absolutely right about nitpicking. When I woke up to find myself in this awful situation I realized that there had not been enough nitpicking by my fathers and their fathers before them. People so determined to be "defenders of the faith" and apologist, they forgot to check in their own house for real issues.

Nitpicking? Yes! We need to keep house.

Just saying if this soundbyte becomes the next bit of tradition, it will be terrible. The idea of having enough faith not to see angels, or the face of the Lord for that matter is the one that brings down civilizations. Until we see the face of God, we are just believing in each others myths.

Ah, I understand now!

Your problem was not so much with what Elder Bednar said, but with the soundbite that might be taken away from it. I see from the ratings that you graciously gave Elder Bednar's talk that you scored everything quite well aside from the "soundbite".

People should be very careful then, to emphasize that the message of the talk was not the soundbite that people are taking away. Because we wouldn't want people thinking poorly of Elder Bednar for saying something unscriptural that he absolutely didn't say.

OI, I can honestly say that my opinion is much more developed now that I have interacted with folks here and earnestly pondered the matter. Yes, I liked the overall message. I believe Elder Bednar was sincere with his teaching. It's just too complicated to be reduced down to the soundbyte.

Great post!

Daryl, what do you get from it?

Called to Serve wrote:

TZONE wrote:

I understand where you're coming from, Daryl. What I would like to know is - why, in the scriptures, including the BOM - does the Lord heal EVERY person he comes in contact with. EVERY person who needs to be healed, he heals, period. There isn't a single example in all of scripture where someone has an ailment of some sort, and he doesn't heal them - not a single one. So, what has changed?

I have not listened to what bednar said But what others have said so far I do not disagree with it. This quote above i believe is NOT correct in what we are talking about. There are plenty of people who are not healed. There are plenty of people who god does not save. Why would God give us an illness than just heal it? That would defeat the purpose. How many people died in Jesus's time? Did he heal all of htem? No. He only healed a VERY FEW! He had a 3.5 year ministry yet we have an account of healing a VERY FEW. Its like going on a mission. You have tons of healing and spiritual experiences but often you just go on preaching and few listen. Than you get home and share the SAME stories over and over.

How do we know he did not heal someone? Why would the apostles even write about that in the first place? However, in every part of history the mission of the saints is DIFFERENT than the mission of the savior. The savior taught by example. He taught through action. He was perfect. Missionaries teach by preaching being imperfect. The apostles taught but how often did they heal? Not quite as often. There are definitely examples of people not being healed in the Book of Mormon. I will take Alma and Amulek story as one. Not saving someone and not healing them are the same thing.

Am I not understanding the issue here? If you don't believe one can have perfect faith and still not be healed than one does not understand the fullness of the plan of salvation. I get what is being asked and the issue, however, that has nothing to do with healing everyone? Or am I mistaken?

I think the problem comes from believing that God doesn't really want us to suffer, knowing that we ourselves don't want to suffer, and yet having to accept that for some reason, we are still not being healed. So is it because of our faith or because of God's will? Is it me or Him? Can I do something more to obtain this blessing, or do I need to wait until the Lord is ready?

To complicate things. we have scriptures telling us that the Lord does want to heal us and that if we have enough faith we can be healed. However, in our mortal perspective, we forget that we sometimes need to wait on the Lord.

The people in Jesus' time who were healed instantly by Him all seem to have been healed right away to us. But we are only seeing one moment of their story. We are not seeing years of pain, of pleading in prayer with God above, of second guessing and doubt, and of dashed hopes. How many of those people were afflicted only a moment before they were healed? None. Many suffered for years.

Remember the blind man? Jesus was asked why he was born blind and He replied that it was so Jesus could show for His works in him. That man waited his entire life to be healed, years and years, just for that moment when Jesus could heal him. How many times did he pray for healing before that? How many blessings did he receive asking for that blessing? Did perhaps that man have to exercise faith first, that he would not be healed? I would think he did.

Original_Intent wrote:I would simply say that anyone that listened to Elder Bednar's talk, and drew the conclusion that he was denying the gift of healing either has severe comprehension problems, was not paying attention to the spirit, or had an agenda.

And I am starting to think LDSFF in general and the super sacred "we have a REAL prophet" forums in particular are not for me.

Consider me sifted. It will be interesting to see who ends up in which piles when all is said and done.

LOL...you'll be in good company!

Daryl wrote:OI, I can honestly say that my opinion is much more developed now that I have interacted with folks here and earnestly pondered the matter. Yes, I liked the overall message. I believe Elder Bednar was sincere with his teaching. It's just too complicated to be reduced down to the soundbyte.

Yeah that one quote without the rest of it seems quite misdirected. My wife read thw soundbite (she isn't a member) and said, "that's doesn't seem right at all" but in the overall context made more sense.

cts that was a great post.

OI, yes took me a bit to figure out what the issue was too. Still Doesn't bother me but that's my personality. I can see the problem now, how it could bother some, but I can see how it doesn't really matter. Those with the spirit will understand what he meant versus what he said (taken literally)... There are countless quotes that can be taken out of context. If someone is not.... I'll stop here. Don't have anything nice to say don't say it hehe. I echo djrme.

But this thread has been very enlightening so I am glad for the discussion on this!

I prefer the point Mormon made, not the glib excuses others seem to be making

3 Ne. 29: 7.
7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get again, that there can be bno miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become clike unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Morm. 9: 15 (15-26)
15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do ano miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.


Moro. 7: 37 (27-37)
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of bunbelief, and all is vain.

Aussie, Mormon was a man, best not to trust in the arm of flesh;

When I heard the Bednar talk it didn't cross my mind that it needed to be reconciled with anything, and it still hasn't.

All flesh will pass away.

Seek the Truth wrote:Aussie, Mormon was a man, best not to trust in the arm of flesh;

When I heard the Bednar talk it didn't cross my mind that it needed to be reconciled with anything, and it still hasn't.

All flesh will pass away.

There's an important part missing from that...
2 Nephi 28:31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Sh!!! That will unsteady the ark of many around here.

AussieOi wrote:I prefer the point Mormon made, not the glib excuses others seem to be making

3 Ne. 29: 7.
7 Yea, and wo unto him that shall say at that day, to get again, that there can be bno miracle wrought by Jesus Christ; for he that doeth this shall become clike unto the son of perdition, for whom there was no mercy, according to the word of Christ!

Morm. 9: 15 (15-26)
15 And now, O all ye that have imagined up unto yourselves a god who can do ano miracles, I would ask of you, have all these things passed, of which I have spoken? Has the end come yet? Behold I say unto you, Nay; and God has not ceased to be a God of miracles.


Moro. 7: 37 (27-37)
37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of bunbelief, and all is vain.

I don't think it's an "either/or" scenario...but an "and" scenario. Focusing only on a God for whom the evidence of "true faith" is the manifestation of physical miracles would be to ignore 1/2 of the power of the atonement and set unrealistic standards, just as ignoring the fact that physical miracles follow those with true faith would be like denying the power of Godliness as shared in the scriptures above.

That Christ suffered what he did so that he would know how to succor us in our infirmities and sorrows suggests that there is more to his power than just being "Mr. Fix-it". If he was simply a "Hey, if you'll just have more faith in me I will physically right all your temporal wrongs" kind of God, then why bother to even know what our infirmities and sorrows and disappointments feel like? Why not just let the atonement be about fixing sins and fixing sins only?

With the people of Mosiah 24, which was the miracle? Was the miracle only when they were delivered from physical captivity? God worked a different miracle in them first that had nothing to do with being delivered from physically...perhaps even to prove them to see if they would submit themselves. Was that not equally as powerful of a miracle?

How far are you willing to extend your logic on healing? Should there be no children with Down's Syndrome? Do parents just need more faith and it would be fixed? What about children born with no limbs? Just more faith and they would grow arms and legs? Or is the guy who was born with no limbs, Nick Vujicic, who now lives a full life, who has had no change in his temporal circumstances, but is free from the depression and anger that consumed his adolescence and serves God in the ministry he's been called to just not miracle enough? Oh who cares that he's helping kids learn what it means to trust God, right? His faith is meaningless without being delivered physically.

Or what about the story of Jacques Lusseryan, the boy blinded at 8, but who God taught how to see spiritually because he learned how to submit patiently, give up all anger, and pursue God in faith and hope. That this boy's blindness created in him the quest for God and spiritual light, which allowed him to play a key role in the French resistance during WWII is probably not miracle enough...no this towering example of faith and courage and at-one-ment with God obviously just doesn't have the faith to be saved since he clearly didn't have it to be healed. Please! Go read his book "And There Was Light" and tell me the man didn't have faith.

Then of course there's the great prophet Joseph who clearly healed others but couldn't spare his own children from dying prematurely. If only he wasn't so immature in his faith.

It would seem most here are not objecting to the need for people to pursue faith unto healing. What they reject is the insistence that some have on defining healing in such limited fashion, thereby ignoring an equally important part of God's work.

Circumstance is something we mortals care about a lot more than God does. If salvation comes to someone by way of sickness unto death, the process of which teaches them total humility and submission to God, and which demands that those around them learn charity and service and compassion...then in such a way God works salvation. Or what of my wife who's going on 9 years of infertility. You might confidently say we lack faith, she'd tell you that for 4 years of that process she did. But infertility was the catalyst for her seeking true healing for the first time in her life...God surprised her by not taking away the infertility itself, but by removing all the emotional pain associated with it. We happen to know quite positively by revelation itself that healing from the emotional pain of infertility, while not being healed from infertility itself, is a miracle by which God is working even more miracles, as God now uses my wife to help thousands through her writing. She's one of the few positive voices online in the infertility world, and teaches people that these challenges offer you an opportunity to become something more, to tap into God and at-one-ment by deciding how you will face such a trial as this. I suppose we should just tell those who write to thank her every week for showing them the way to peace through God that they've actually learned nothing of value and that peace they feel is only counterfeit to the true sign of God's favor and their faith - a natural born child. Yep, Mormons and non-Mormons alike writing in and saying they no longer feel depressed, their marriages are improving, they've discovered how to approach both the good and bad of life, saying they've finally for the first time felt a connection with God....NO MIRACLES THERE. Nope, that's the work of Satan and damnation!

These aren't "glib excuses"...it is you who are in just as much danger of denying the work of God if you can't see His hand in those circumstances which for some reason just don't change. As I quoted in an earlier post...just after the Anti-Nephi-Lehi's were killed but additional souls joined with God, the same Mormon you quote above says "thus we see the Lord worketh in many ways to the salvation of his people." His is the work of salvation...not chief medic.

I believe in divine healing of a physical nature. I've seen it, I've participated in it. I will encourage others to seek it, and I will seek to continue to develop that gift of healing I was promised in my PB. But I cannot deny, in fact I have been specifically prompted, that one way in which that gift of healing has manifested itself in my life is in the way God has used my previous immoveable mountains to develop within me charity needed minister to people, showing them how to trust in God regardless of outcome.

Very good Dannyk.

Perspective is everything. Thanks for your clarifications.

Elder Bednar has a heart of Gold. A true Godly man who I can take a lesson from in humility.

I have always known Elder Bednar has world-wide influence. I guess Han Solo is taking cues from apostles now.

Check out this video @ 1:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3G4E2a ... ata_player" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

there is a scripture which goes something like this. no man can preform any miracle until first he is cleansed every whit. In the BoM. The descriptions of the church of Christ are: 1. they are built on Christs Gospel 2.Have had their garments washed in his blood. 3. have all things in common. 4.heal the sick. 5. raise the dead. 6.cause the lame to walk. 7. cause the blind to see. 8.cause the deaf to hear. 9. have all manner of miracles. 10.never a happier people. 11.drink poison and it doesn't harm them. 12. received the holy ghost 13.cast out devils. 14. pick up serpents and receive no harm. 15.speak in tongues. 16.lay hands on the sick and they will recover. 17.No contentions or disputations. 18.all free 19.no pour or rich. 20.no lying or murdering. 21.no envy or strife. 22. no sick or lame among them. On the other hand the Great and abominable church, or the church of Man is described as this 1. rich, vain, lifted up in pride. 2.wearing of costly apparel. 3.have the fine things of the world. 4. have goods no more in common. 5.divided into classes. 6.built up church to get gain. 7.deny that there is a true church of God. 8.administer sacrament to the unworthy. 9. profess to know Christ. 10.church grows fast. 11. exercise power and authority over saints of God. 12. built churches and adorned them with precious things. 13. oppressed the hireling in his wages. 14.suffer the hungry, sick, needy, necked, and afflicted to pass by and not notice. 15. turn aside the stranger. 16. false swearers. ---- Jesus was asked where his kingdom was? he replied "my kingdom is not of this earth". We were told we were to be in the earth and not of it. --- I've heard it said that Christ never scolded anyone for be believing to much. IN the bible Christ tells us that we can do all the things he did even more.

Daryl wrote:I have always known Elder Bednar has world-wide influence. I guess Han Solo is taking cues from apostles now.

Check out this video @ 1:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3G4E2a ... ata_player" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That was awesome, lol.

Deepwater- good post...we truly are called upon to do more if we want to belong to the Church of Christ. I liked your points.

Bump, for those who have not seen this before.

This is another statement I'm also trying to reconcile.

Bednar said;
"In other words, [they] needed to overcome, through the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, the 'natural man' tendency in all of us to demand impatiently and insist incessantly on the blessings we want and believe we deserve,"
That seams to be in conflict with Luke 11:8 which says quoting Christ;
I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his afriend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth.



"He that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened;" for only by patience, practice, and ceaseless importunity can a man enter the Door of the Temple of Knowledge.

"As a Man Thinketh" James Allen

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

AGStacker wrote:Also besides Joseph Smith's children dying, Job was a perfect example of a righteous man who had bad things happen to him. I do believe that MORE people would be healed if they had real faith. The faith necessary to converse with angels. I also believe that some infirmities can be healed through proper diets, even cancers. I believe most diseases are diet oriented.

Surely though not everyone who has a illness and isn't healed lacks faith. Sometimes it requires those of us to have the faith necessary to heal the sick. Christ was able to heal because He was connected to Heaven. Maybe it is those administering the blessings that are faithless.

Ultimately, for those who believe Denver to be the real deal as do I, he has even stated that those who usually connect to Heaven are those with infirmities.

Well said, AGStacker.

I am remembering that in some of the circumstances where Jesus healed the sick, the sick weren't even present. Their faith was not required. Jesus would heal them in absentia due, in part, to the faith of the person who had presented themself to Jesus on behalf of the person who was healed. I am also remembering the father seeking a miracle for his child who asked Jesus to help him with his unbelief. I have found it interesting that Jesus would say that a healed person's sins had been forgiven.

We concern ourselves with things which we cannot clearly understand; things for which we have not personally been given answers. It is all part of our journey; including these concerns. When we receive Christ's "peace"---when we enter His rest---we are not troubled by what does or does not take place in the physical realm. That peace and rest will carry us through whatever trials and tribulations are still to be experienced. In fact, we no longer see them as trials and tribulations. Rather, we see them as the blessings they always were whereby our spirit can be born of the Spirit.

Shalom,

jo

ajax wrote:

TZONE wrote:Am I not understanding the issue here?

I think part of the issue here is Bro. Bednar's phrase, "do you have the faith not to be healed". This could easily turn into the go to catch-phrase for healing failures, or morph into other things like "do you have faith not to see an angel".

I 100% agree! It is the statement 'do you have faith NOT to be healed' that is questionable. I do not question Bednars sincerity, but this phrase is damnable. Faith is healing. Faith is NOT, 'not healing'! Now if the phrase was, 'do you TRUST God whether He heals you or not' it would be fine. I give Bednar the benefit of the doubt and I too like the ultimate message of trusting God, I just cannot accept a phrase so laden with contradictions and just plain false doctrine. It takes ZERO faith to NOT be healed. I can 'NOT be healed' just by curling up in the fetal position and dying. Where is the faith in that? Faith requires something and I agree that sometimes that includes trusting God, but that is trust or faith in Gods will, rather than faith not to be healed. But who am I? If this helps you to the Master, good. If not discard it.

Jonny wrote: I 100% agree! It is the statement 'do you have faith NOT to be healed' that is questionable. I do not question Bednars sincerity, but this phrase is damnable. Faith is healing. Faith is NOT, 'not healing'! Now if the phrase was, 'do you TRUST God whether He heals you or not' it would be fine. I give Bednar the benefit of the doubt and I too like the ultimate message of trusting God, I just cannot accept a phrase so laden with contradictions and just plain false doctrine. It takes ZERO faith to NOT be healed. I can 'NOT be healed' just by curling up in the fetal position and dying. Where is the faith in that? Faith requires something and I agree that sometimes that includes trusting God, but that is trust or faith in Gods will, rather than faith not to be healed. But who am I? If this helps you to the Master, good. If not discard it.

Thank you for sharing, Jonny! And welcome to LDS Freedom Forum!

jo

Jonny wrote:I 100% agree! It is the statement 'do you have faith NOT to be healed' that is questionable. I do not question Bednars sincerity, but this phrase is damnable. Faith is healing. Faith is NOT, 'not healing'! Now if the phrase was, 'do you TRUST God whether He heals you or not' it would be fine. I give Bednar the benefit of the doubt and I too like the ultimate message of trusting God, I just cannot accept a phrase so laden with contradictions and just plain false doctrine. It takes ZERO faith to NOT be healed. I can 'NOT be healed' just by curling up in the fetal position and dying. Where is the faith in that? Faith requires something and I agree that sometimes that includes trusting God, but that is trust or faith in Gods will, rather than faith not to be healed. But who am I? If this helps you to the Master, good. If not discard it.

True.

The choice of words was unfortunate. I'm supposing he (or whoever wrote what he said) was doing what they could to be unique in the wording. I would like to think that no harm was meant.

Elder Bednar has a way with words. I have more reverence for him than almost any apostle. He was the first to offend me now I have gained more gratitude for him and his dedication to the Lord than most people I know. He spends more time in the book of Mormon than anyone I have ever met. (Knowledge of it)