Hollow Earth Theory

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.

Do you believe in Hollow Earth

Yes
25
35%
No
25
35%
Unsure
22
31%
 
Total votes: 72
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Bridgey
captain of 100
Posts: 328

Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Bridgey »

Just wondering if any of you believe in the Hollow Earth Theory. I know it isn't that important, especially in the light of current events, but interesting all the same.

There is a lot of conflicting stories about this one, but I do tend to think Admiral Byrd's story about it. http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/byrdiar.html Although I think this story has been changed along the way to encorporate aliens, etc for what ever reason.

To me it makes sense that the earth is hollow. If you take a wheel for instance and put all the weight in the middle, it isn't hard to spin but doesn't spin for long. However, if you put all the weight on the outsides it is harder to get spinning, but spins for a long time.

I have also heard the theory that the 10 lost tribes of Israel could be living in hollow earth, which could make sense in that the conditions were different back then and it may have been possible for them to make that journey. But then, Govt would probably know about them which kind of goes against the prophecy??? However, somehow they need to make their trek to the USA at one stage or another. In a cold winter you can cross over Russia and Alaska to get to the USA. Regardless, what do you guys think of the theory?

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6047
Location: Driven

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

I voted "unsure" since I have never been there. The deepest I have dug down was a few feet...

But reading "The Energy Non Crisis" that Chip sent me, I read where they were bringing up tropical plants and toads etc... up frequently when drilling on the North Slope in Alaska. They weren't fossils, but frozen and looked like they were in perfect shape (they thawed the frog out and tried to reanimate it). It immediately made me think of the Lost Tribes/Hollow Earth bit you sometimes here and imagine everything they pull up being upside down. I think it would be cool some day to be out in the yard when a shovel pokes up through the lawn as someone shovels up form beneath.

Now, I sincerely doubt the validity of any of the above, but I am not ignorant enough (or perhaps am ignorant enough) not to dismiss much right off.

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Army Of Truth
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Location: Rivers of Babylon
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Army Of Truth »

I voted unsure as well because I haven't done any research about this so I can't say one way or the other. But this brings to mind that one scripture in D&C 133:26-27 where it mentions the Lost Tribes returning:
"And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence. And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep."

Where is this highway coming from? From beneath the sea? Could it be from inside the earth???

I need to do some more reading up on this.
:wink:

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 6047
Location: Driven

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

I saved one of the Shaun Knapp emails on the Lost tribes that was good:
Scared and Alone
The Location and Condition of the Lost Tribes of Israel1

"And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, the more part of all the tribes have been led away... and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away."
1 Nephi 22:4

An aspect of the gospel that has long fascinated members of the Church is the doctrine of the gathering. Israel will literally be gathered together "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"2 and the Lord will "bring them again into their land that [He] gave unto their fathers."3

Of course, in order for a gathering to take place, there must first have been a dispersement. As we know, portions of the children of Israel have been led away from time to time in the past, most notably the Jaredites, Lehi and his family, among others. And although there have been portions of the various tribes led away from time to time, the largest such dispersement occurred in 721BC.

The story really begins, of course, with the death of King Solomon, and the ensuing struggle for power that ultimately ended in a literal rift in the house of Israel. The twelve tribes of Israel were split over who should succeed Solomon, with Benjamin and Judah accepting Rehoboam4. They occupied the south, including Jerusalem, and were called the Kingdom of Judah. The other ten tribes of Israel favoured Jeroboam. They became known as the Kingdom of Israel, and occupied the north. This all took place around 975BC.

In Deuteronomy, the Lord clearly warned the Jews of what was to come. "The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known... The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand; a nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favor to the young... And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there shalt thou serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone."5

By 721BC, the Syrian states had been captured, and were paying tribute to the Assyrian king. At this time, Shalmanezer V was the king of Assyria. It came to his attention that King Hoshea in Israel was conspiring with Egypt, Syria and Phillistia to revolt against Assyrian rule. Shalmanezer immediately swept into Israel from the north, and laid siege to the kingdom for three years until it was ultimately devastated by Shalmanezer's successor, Sargon. The ten tribes were deported directly to Assyria, leaving the kingdom of Israel empty, soon to be filled with the Samaritan race. Some, it should be noted, managed to escape south into the Kingdom of Judah.

At this time, we know that although some stayed behind in Assyria, a large body of people representing each of the ten tribes, escaped from the Assyrians and began to travel north. These are they who became "lost".

There will, in the end, be two distinct gatherings for the children of Israel. The first gathering is a spiritual one, and the second is temporal. The spiritual gathering is currently taking place, and involves simply coming to a knowledge of the truth, accepting the gospel and joining the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The temporal gathering requires these converts to be "gathered home to the lands of their inheritance, and... established in all their lands of promise."6

What role do the lost ten tribes play in the gathering? Where did they go when they left Assyria? Where are they now? How will they return? Before these questions can be answered, it must be clear that arguments and opinions are not necessarily doctrine. The standard works are, of course, the measuring stick with which one must evaluate any argument that is being advanced as truth. Elder Harold B. Lee said of this principle, "It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they speak and write. Now you keep that in mind. I don't care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard works, unless that one be the prophet, seer, and revelator - please note that one exception - you may immediately say, "Well, that is his own idea!" And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard works (I think that is why we call them "standard" - it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by the same token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it."7 It is important to bear that in mind.

Assyria, ca. 720BC: most of the ten tribes we know escape north. We are given valuable insight into their possible course in the Apocryphal book of Esdras. In chapter 13 of 2 Esdras, it is written "Those are the tribes which were carried away captives out of their own land in the time of Oseas [Hosea] the king, whom Shalmanezer, the king of the Assyrians, took captive, and crossed them beyond the river; so were they brought into another land. But they took counsel to themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country where never man dwelt, that they might keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land. And they entered in at the narrow passage of the river Euphrates. For the Most High then showed them signs, and stayed the springs of the flood till they were passed over. For through the country there was a great journey, even of a year and a half, and the same region is called Arsareth (or Ararah). Then dwelt they there until the latter time, and when they come forth again, the Most High shall hold still the springs of the river again, that they may go through.8"9

The journey described sounds like a perfect type for the Israelites exodus from Egypt; this is no small band of nomads. These are the people who had previously occupied the whole of the Kingdom of Israel.

Elder George Reynolds wrote the following about the tribes' journey northward: "Is it altogether improbable that in that long journey of one and a half years, as Esdras states it, from Media the land of their captivity to the frozen north, some of the backsliding Israel rebelled, turned aside from the main body, forgot their God, by and by mingled with the Gentiles and became the leaven to leaven with the promised seed all the nations of the earth? The account given in the Book of Mormon of a single family of this same house, its waywardness, its stiff neckedness before God, its internal quarrels and family feuds are, we fear, an example on a small scale of what most probably happened in the vast bodies of Israelites who for so many months wended their tedious way northward. Laman and Lemuel had, no doubt, many counterparts in the journeying Ten Tribes. And who so likely to rebel as stubborn, impetuous, proud and warlike Ephraim? Rebellion and backsliding have been so characteristically the story of Ephraim's career that we can scarcely conceive that it could be otherwise and yet preserve the unities of that people's history. Can it be any wonder then that so much of the blood of Ephraim has been found hidden and unknown in the midst of the nations of northern Europe and other parts until the spirit of prophecy revealed its existence?"10

So we have an idea of the general course they travelled northward. Or do we? We must keep in mind that the reference comes from an apocryphal work, and therefore cannot be immediately accepted.11 Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie wrote "It could be argued that the passage referring to the ten tribes is good while the rest of the book is bad, and perhaps this is so. If we are to maintain that the ten tribes passage is a pearl found in a coal pit, it stands sorely in need of verification from a source known to be genuine, but what it cannot be is the foundation upon which the rest of our reasoning is based."12 Therefore, the account of Esdras is submitted merely as a theory; an ancient work whose authenticity and reliablity as an authoritative source is largely in question, and whose value is to be evaluated by the individual reader.13

We have at the very least a theory as to why we are currently finding so many Ephriamites in Europe. But this travelling body of ten tribes is still unaccounted for. Did they simply separate and disperse throughout Europe and Asia?

This is not likely; Bruce R. McConkie wrote that "they were still a distinct people many hundreds of years later, for the resurrected Lord visited and ministered among them following his ministry on this continent among the Nephites,"14 Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie put this fact into perspective for us: "While it is true that Christ visited them in a group or groups in the meridian of time (see 3 Nephi 17:4)15, it takes a two-thousand year leap to suppose that they have remained so today. The Nephites were also in a group with prophets at their head, but no one would argue that they have retained their identity to this day."16 Although this is true, there is supporting evidence that the tribes remain in such a state.

There are some who believe the gathering of the lost ten tribes is currently taking place through the conversion efforts of missionaries all over the globe. Their arguments will be dealt with later. They are fundamentally incorrect, and proven so by the simple fact that tribes other than Ephraim comprise an exceptionally small percentage of Church membership. So where is everybody? Some may claim conversions in Russia or Communist China will produce hordes of Asherites, Reubenites and Issacharites. This is highly unlikely, and if the lineage thus far revealed from Chinese and Russian conversions are any indication, there will be little change in the future. Current statistics for those areas seem to conform with the Church population in general, that is, almost universally Ephraimite with a handful of members from other tribes.

Of course, opinions differ widely when it comes to discussing the current location or condition of the lost tribes. Considerable debate on the topic has yielded no definite answer, not surprisingly, as the official position of the LDS church is that "we have no knowledge of the location or condition of that part of the ten tribes who went into the north country."17 We have been told that they "are not lost unto the Lord,"18 and it suffices us to know that they will someday be brought forth in a miraculous manner.19 However, there exists a myriad of statements that indicate generally the tribes' present circumstance.

One popular theory, which continues to be taught widely in the church despite a wealth of evidence and prophetic statements to the contrary, is the notion that "the ten lost tribes are no longer together in an organized group but that they are completely dispersed among the nations and that their gathering will be somewhat similar to that of the rest of the world who will be gathered from among the nations by typical missionary work."20 This scenario is probably best defended by Robert L Millet and Jospeh Fielding McConkie, quoted earlier. Dean of Religious Education at BYU and professor at BYU respectively, both are recognized church scholars. They make a thorough investigation of this argument in their book "Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel."21 I have attempted in this paper to address their key arguments. In general, their arguments are at the very least intriguing, but too often rely on a reinterpretation of scriptural text that seems highly arbitrary. It is to the reader to weigh the merits of each proposal.

James E. Talmage, however, wrote "it is plain that, while many of those belonging to the Ten Tribes were diffused among the nations, a sufficient number to justify the retention of the original name were led away as a body and are now in existence in some place where the Lord has hidden them."22

The miraculous physical gathering is described in the most detail in section 133 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Although some may argue the passage is figurative, clearly a distinct group is spoken of, being led physically to Zion: "And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence. And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep. Their enemies shall become a prey unto them, And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land. And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants. And the boundaries of the everlasting hills shall tremble at their presence. And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.23"24

It would seem from this passage that there are prophets among the ten tribes, and that they have kept records25, most notably of the ministry of the resurrected Lord among them. Is this the only way to interpret this passage? Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie have this to say concerning the verses: "Section 133 of the Doctrine and Covenants speaks of a future day when the tribes of Israel will return under the direction of their prophets to receive a blessing at the hands of Ephraim. This revelation does not, however, say that they are presently in that state... Nor does this contradict Nephi's prophecy that we will some day have the records of the lost tribes. Nephi did not say that they would bring them to us, only that we would have them."26

Wilford Woodruff, however, said of this prophecy "all that God has said with regard to the ten tribes of Israel, strange as it may appear, will come to pass. They will, as has been said concerning them, smite the rock, and the mountains of ice will flow before them, and a great highway will be cast up, and their enemies will become a prey to them; and their records, and their choice treasures they will bring with them to Zion. These things are as true as God lives."27

Another indication that the ten tribes are still a distinct and separate group preparing for their return is a statement made by Joseph Smith concerning the John the Revelator. John Whitmer reported the incident as follows, "The Spirit of the Lord fell upon Joseph in an unusual manner, and he prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the Ten Tribes of Israel who had been led away by Shalmanezer, king of Assyria, to prepare them for their return from their long dispersion, to again possess the land of their fathers."28 Earlier it was noted that Bruce R. McConkie viewed the visit of the resurrected Lord to the ten tribes as evidence that "they were still a distinct people many hundreds of years later."29 It is of interest here to note that the Prophet spoke of John being specifically among the lost ten tribes, a useless designation if said tribes were indeed fully scattered. In that case, why not refer to John among the whole house of Israel? Why distinguish? Rather than address this problem, Millet and McConkie focus on John Whitmer's choice of the word 'dispersement' when recording the minutes of General Conference. Concerning this prophetic statement, Brothers Millet and McConkie say: "Far from saying they were in a body, the Prophet spoke of 'their long dispersion'. Again, if we are going to be true to the scriptures, it can be no other way. Be it remembered, and it is recorded in the book of Revelation, that the Lord told John that he 'must prophesy, again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings' (Revelation 10:11)."30

The Prophet speaking on another occasion said "...now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake will sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of this land, to open and prepare the way for the return of the lost tribes of Israel from the north country."31

James E. Talmage spoke twice of the Lost Ten Tribes in 1916, at both the April and October general conferences. In April he said "There is a tendency among men to explain away what they don't wish to understand in literal simplicity, and we, as Latter-day Saints are not entirely free from the taint of that tendency... Some people say [the prophecy of the gathering of the ten tribes] is to be explained in this way; A gathering is in progress, and has been in progress from the early days of this Church; and thus the 'Lost Tribes' are now being gathered; but that we are not to look for the return of any body of people now unknown as to their whereabouts. True, the gathering is in progress, this is a gathering dispensation; but the prophecy stands that the tribes shall be brought forth from their hiding place... [and their] scriptures shall become one with the scriptures of the Jews, the Holy Bible, and with the scriptures of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon, and with the scriptures of the Latter-day Saints as embodied in the volumes of modern revelation."32 Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie, of course, disagree as to the coming forth of the records of the lost tribes. Since they maintain that the tribes do not, in fact, currently exist as a body, they do not believe that the ten tribes will return bringing their records with them. They cite Bruce R. McConkie who said "we and they will have their scriptures; and those scriptures will tell of the Risen Lord among their forebears. How they shall be brought to light is not known. It may be in much the same way the Book of Mormon was revealed to the world."33 They go on to assert that "It may be... a portion of the record of the ten tribes is already in our posession. The Doctrine and Covenants is a record of God's dealings with a people who are a remnant of one of the lost tribes, even the tribe of Ephraim."34 That this last statement is highly improbable goes almost without saying.

Speaking in a similar vein at the following conference, Elder Talmage said "...I have found elders in Israel who would tell me that the predictions relating to the Lost Tribes are to be explained in this figurative manner- that the gathering of those tribes is already well advanced and that there is no hiding place whereto God has led them, from which they shall come forth, led by their prophets to receive their blessings here at the hands of gathered Ephraim, the gathered portions that have been scattered among the nations."35

Joseph Fielding Smith expressed the same view. President Smith wrote "Notwithstanding all that has been written, there are many members of the Church who think that these "lost tribes" were scattered among the nations and are now being gathered out and are found through all the stakes and branches of the Church. They reach this conclusion because the general opinion is that these tribes went into the North, and it is the northern countries from whence most of gathered Israel has been found... Whether these tribes are in the North or not, I am not prepared to say. As I said before, they are "lost" and until the Lord wishes it, they will not be found. All that I know about it is what the Lord has revealed, and He declares that they will come from the North. He has also made it very clear and definite that these lost people are separate and apart from the scattered Israelites now being gathered out...36 Surely there must be a time when this great body of people will come to the children of Ephraim to receive their blessings. At their presence the mountains will tremble; they will smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down. They will bring forth their rich treasures to the children of Ephraim, at whose hands they shall receive the rich blessings which the Gospel and its ordinances offer them."37

President Smith then includes a quote from Elder Orson F. Whitney who makes an interesting symantic point. Elder Whitney said "It is maintained by some that the lost tribes of Israel -those carried into captivity about 725BC- are no longer a distinct people; that they exist only in a scattered condition, mixed with the nations among which they were taken by their captors, the conquering Assyrians. If this be true, and those tribes were not intact at the time Joseph and Oliver received the keys of the 'gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth,' what need to particularize as to the Ten tribes, if they were no longer a distinct people? And why do our Articles of Faith give these tribes a special mention?38"39

Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie attempt to answer Elder Whitney. They begin by restating the problem: "Moses conferred upon the heads of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery 'the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north' (D&C 110:11). In the tenth article of faith, the Prophet wrote: 'We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes.' It appears that two seperate events are being described. If the literal gathering of Israel embraces all twelve tribes, why then the seemingly redundant statement that the ten tribes will also be returned to their ancient lands?" Their attempt at an explanation is as follows: "The gathering," they say "comes in response to the scattering. We can quite properly consider the scattering as consisting of two parts: the leading of the ten tribes into the north countries, and the dispersing of the twelve tribes among all the nations of the earth. Thus, as the scattering can be divided into two major events, so it must be with the gathering. If there is to be a restoration of all things, the gathering of the twelve tribes must be as literal as their scattering; the ten tribes must return from the north countries as assuredly as they were taken into the north countries. Thus, after the remnants of the ten tribes have been gathered through the waters of baptism, some representative number of them will return to their ancient lands of inheritance."40 Brother Millet and Brother McConkie fail to take into account the fact that the "two part" gathering was such because chronologically, they were two seperate events, while their gathering, or at least, the gathering they are suggesting, appears to be one single event. Why continue to distinguish? Old time's sake? I think not.

An important scripture that can help us understand the nature of the tribes' condition is found in Jeremiah. "Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the Land of Egypt; But, the Lord liveth, which brought up, and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them;"41

Roger K. Young wrote that this scripture "indicates that the return of the Ten Tribes from the North will be such a miraculous event that it will overshadow the time that the Lord led the children of Israel out of the Land of Egypt. At that time the Lord, through his prophet Moses, provided miracle upon miracle in the form of plagues to convince Pharaoh to let them go, and then after their release led them with a pillar of fire and a pillar of smoke, spoke to them with his own voice, opened seas for them so that they crossed over on dry land, provided them water and food in miraculous ways, provided so that their clothes did not deteriorate, and even fought for them against the army of Egypt when it tried to stop them. The Lord will do so again and even more for the Tribes of Israel as He leads them from their hiding places in the North. The group that comes from the North will be a tremendous body indeed because they will consist of the descendants of 'the more part of the tribes'42 which had been led away."43

The Bible Dictionary in the LDS edition of the scriptures speaks in similar terms about the tribes' return: "Since their captivity they have never yet returned to their homeland, but extensive promises and prophecies speak of the time when they of the 'north countries' shall return.... The gathering of the lost tribes is to be a more spectacular event than the children of Israel coming out of Egypt in Moses' day."44

Brothers Millet and McConkie strive to persuade people that it would make more sense for God to bring to pass the miraculous prophecies concerning the ten tribes triumphant return in a figurative way; symbolically, rather than literally in the grand spectacle so vividly described in the scriptures. They appear to be trying to explain away what seems at first reading to be relatively straightforward. As Elder Talmage said above, "There is a tendency among men to explain away what they don't wish to understand in literal simplicity, and we, as Latter-day Saints are not entirely free from the taint of that tendency."45 I feel of Brother Millet and Brother McConkie as Joseph Fielding Smith did of those in the world and increasingly within the Church who disbelieve the miracles that God is capable of accomplishing with his power, "I think it is not in good taste for any man today, within the Church or out of it, to scout the miracles of the Bible. It is certainly out of harmony in the Church. It is certainly not in keeping with comission given to teachers in the Church to question the miracles of the scriptures..."46

So where on Earth could a large group of people be, who are as yet undiscovered? The Arctic?47 An underwater city, perhaps? Beneath the surface of the Earth? My neighbor's basement? Are they even on Earth at all...? The truth is, it is unlikely such a group could possibly escape the notice of man, particularly in this day of mapping satellites and radar.48 Which means, either one adheres to the belief that the tribes are indeed oblivious of their own significance and scattered among all nations, or they believe the tribes are not on this Earth at all.

Is that really so far fetched a possibility? Take Enoch for example, and his city, which was caught up into heaven. "One thousand and fifty-two years before the Great Flood, a large group of people had attained a sufficiently righteous society under the direction of the antediluvian prophet Enoch that their entire city-nation was sanctified and removed from this earth... This miraculous removal, which occurred just four years before Noah's birth, did not simply involve the citizenry, but also included the land that they occupied and 'their houses, gardens, fields, cattle, and all their possessions.'"49 "It is this city of Zion" says Elder McConkie, "which is to return in the last days, probably shortly after the ushering in of the millennial era."50

Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie ask a series of questions concerning the apostasy in an attempt to prove that the tribes could not conceivably be on this earth as a distinct body. They are absolutely correct, although their conclusion is erroneous, for they mean to convey that the lost ten tribes must indeed be scattered among all nations. True, these questions could not be answered if the tribes were still on earth somewhere together, but are easily diffused if the tribes are indeed living on another sphere. They ask, "How could the apostasy have been universal and not affect those of the lost tribes? And if there were no apostasy among them, why the need for a restoration? Why restore priesthood and keys that have not been lost? Why give Joseph Smith the Presidency and responsibility for events over which he has no control? And what is wrong with the priesthood authority of these prophets and their tribes that they have never sought to share its blessings with others?"51 Of the priesthood as it exists with the ten tribes Elder Orson Pratt said, "God is determined to raise up Prophets among that people, but he will not bestow upon them all the fullness of the blessings of the Priesthood. The fullness will be reserved to be given to them after they come to Zion."52 And, presumably, the apostasy did not affect John the Revelator, who was granted life until the Lords return, nor the Three Nephites, who had and still hold the priesthood, as do those beings from the city of Enoch, who also continue to exist elsewhere.

Is it that inconceivable to believe that the same thing happened to the ten tribes of Israel? Elder Parley P. Pratt wrote of this very possibility in the Millennial Star, in 1841. He wrote " We are nowhere to understand that all the stars will fall or even many of them: but only 'as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.'53 The stars which will fall to the earth, are fragments, which have been broken off from the earth from time to time, in the mighty convulsions of nature. Some in the days of Enoch, some perhaps in the days of Peleg, some with the ten tribes, and some at the crucifixion of the Messiah. These must all be restored again at the 'times of restitution of all things.' This will restore the ten tribes of Israel; and also bring again Zion, even Enoch's city... When these fragments, (some of which are vastly larger than the present earth) are brought back and joined to this earth, it will cause a convulsion of all nature; the graves of the Saints will be opened, and rise from the dead; while the mountains will flow down, the valleys rise, the sea retire to its own place, the islands and continents will be removed, and earth be rolled together as a scroll. The earth will be many times larger than it is now. 'If I have told you of earthly things and ye believe not; what would you think if you were to be told of heavenly things.'"54

President Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal an account from Brigham Young. "The leaders upon their return from Provo made a visit to Logan. Here, President Young is quoted as saying the ten tribes of Israel are on a portion of the earth--a portion separated from the main land."55

Recorded elsewhere in President Woodruff's journal is another statement from Brigham Young regarding the lost tribes. It is a response President Young gave when, in 1859, he was asked if the explorations which were then taking place in Northern Canada would eventually lead to the discovery of the lost ten tribes, and ultimately, their return. To this, he replied: "The nations will have nothing to do with the preparing of the way for their return. But when the time has come for their return, the Lord will do the work. They are on a portion of earth separated from this globe in the north which cannot be seen from this earth."56

Elder Orson Pratt recorded the opinion of Joseph Smith on the matter when he wrote "The Prophet Joseph once in my hearing advanced his opinion that the Ten Tribes were separated from the Earth; or a portion of the Earth was by a miracle broken off, and that the Ten Tribes were taken away with it, and that in the latter days it would be restored to the Earth or be let down in the Polar regions. Whether the Prophet founded his opinion upon revelation or whether it was a matter of mere speculation for him, I am not able to say."57

One of the Prophet's wives, and later General Relief Society President, Eliza R. Snow is the author of 10 of the hymns contained in the current edition of our hymnbook. Among others, Snow penned the words to "Behold the Great Redeemer Die", "O My Father", and "In Our Lovely Deseret". Reproduced below is a hymn she wrote that appeared in LDS Hymnbooks from 1856 until 1912, at which point the hymnbook was condensed significantly.

1. Thou, Earth, wast once a glorious sphere
Of noble magnitude,
And didst with majesty appear
Among the worlds of God.

2. But thy dimensions have been torn
Asunder, piece by piece,
And each dismember'd fragment borne
Abroad to distant space.

3. When Enoch could no longer stay
Amid corruption here,
Part of thyself was borne away
to form another sphere.

4. That portion where his city stood
He gain'd by right approv'd
And nearer to the throne of god
His planet upward mov'd

5. And when the Lord saw fit to hide
The "ten lost tribes" away,
thou, Earth, wast sever'd to provide
The orb on which they stay.

6. And thus, from time to time, thy size
Has been diminish'd, till
Thou seemst the law of sacrifice
Created to fulfil.58


A fascinating account concerning Joseph Smith comes to us from Homer M. Brown, a patriarch in the Granite Stake. His grandparents were Mr. and Mrs. Benjamin Brown, who would from time to time be called upon to give sanctuary to the Prophet. Homer M. Brown's account is as follows: "One evening in Nauvoo, just after dark, somebody rapped at the door very vigorously. Grandfather said he was reading the Doctrine and Covenants. He rose hurriedly and answered the summons at the door, where we met the Prophet Joseph Smith.

"He said, 'Brother Brown, can you keep me over night, the mobs are after me?' Grandfather answered, 'Yes, sir. It will not be the first time, come in.'

"'All right,' the Prophet said, shutting the door quickly. He came in and sat down. Grandmother said; 'Brother Joseph, have you had your supper?'

"'No' he answered, 'I have not.' So she prepared him a meal and he ate it. After ward they were in conversation relative to the principles of the Gospel. During the conversation the ten lost tribes were mentioned. Grandfather said, 'Joseph, where are the ten tribes?' He said, 'Come to the door and I will show you, come on Sister Brown, I want you both to see.'

"It being a starlit night the Prophet said: 'Brother Brown, can you show me the Polar Star?' 'Yes sir,' he said, pointing to the North Star. 'There it is.' 'Yes, I know,' said the Prophet, 'But which one? there are a lot of stars there.'

"Grandfather said: 'Can you see the points of the Dipper?' The Prophet answered: 'You are correct. Now,' he said, pointing toward the star, 'do you discern a little twinkler to the right and below the Polar Star, which we would judge to be about the distance of 20 feet from here?'

"Grandfather answered, 'Yes, sir.' The Prophet said: 'Sister Brown, do you see that star also?' Her answer was, 'Yes, sir.'

"'Very well then,' he said, 'let's go in.' After re-entering the house, the Prophet said 'Brother Brown, I noticed when I came in that you were reading the Doctrine and Covenants. Will you kindly get it.'

"He did so. The Prophet turned to section 133 and read, commencing at the 26th verse, and throughout the 34th verse. He said, after reading the 31st verse, 'Now let me ask you what would
cause the everlasting hills to tremble with more violence than the coming together of two planets? 'And the place whereon they reside will return to this Earth'. Now,' he said, 'scientists will tell you that it is not scientific: that two planets coming together would be disastrous to both, but when two planets or other objects are travelling in the same direction and one of them with a little greater velocity than the other, it would not be disastrous because the one travelling faster would overtake the other. And now, what would cause the mountains of ice to melt quicker than the heat caused by the friction of the two planets coming together?' And then he asked this question: 'Did you ever see a meteor falling that was not red hot? So that would cause the mountains of ice to melt.'

"'And relative to this Great Highway which should be cast up when the planet returns to its place in the great Northern Waters, it will form a highway and waters will recede and roll back.' He continued, 'Now as to their coming back from the Northern Waters; they will return from the north because their planet will return to the place from whence it was taken.'

"'Relative to the waters rolling back to the north. If you take a vessel of water and swing it rapidly around your head you won't spill any, but if you stop the motion gradually, it will begin to pour out. Now,' he said, 'Brother Brown, at the present time this earth is rotating very rapidly. When this planet returns it will make the earth much heavier, and it will then revolve slower, and that will account for the waters receding from this earth for a great while...'"59

One must, of course, differentiate between opinion, that is, speculation, and prophetic statements. That opinions differ on this matter is no better illustrated than when the various statements in this paper are compared with this passage from Bruce R. McConkie's final work "A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. Elder McConkie writes "There is something mysterious and fascinating about believing the Ten Tribes are behind an iceberg somewhere in the land of the north, or that they are on some distant planet that will one day join itself with the earth, or that the tribe of Dan is in Denmark, the tribe of Reuben in Russia, and so forth. A common cliché asserts: 'If we knew where the Lost Tribes were, they would not be lost.' True it is that they are lost from the knowledge of the world; they are not seen and recognized as the kingdom they once were; but in general terms, their whereabouts is known. They are scattered in all the nations of this earth, primarily in the nations north of the lands of their first inheritance."60

In light of this, one is forced to concede that regarding the whereabouts of the Lost Tribes, the answer is an unequivocal "We don't know." One is free, however to review the facts, and based upon them form an opinion.

In addition to recognizing speculation versus prophetic statements, one must certainly also consider the reliability of the source material to properly on form one's own opinion. The scope of this paper does not allow for the evaluation of each historical source, and consequently, the reader must consider each on its own merits. It has been demonstrated sufficiently that the lost tribes of Israel continue to exist somewhere as a group, distinct and self-aware. It also appears that concerning their whereabouts there exists a pattern of evidence that seems to point toward one conclusion, that the Ten Tribes of Israel are currently residing on a sphere separate from this earth. They are preparing for their return, which we know will come to pass very shortly.61 Their return to this planet will fulfill ancient prophecy and in the words of Jeremiah, "behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall... [say], the Lord liveth, which brought up, and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country... and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers."62

Perhaps it would be a good idea to prepare a trail of Reeses Pieces™, to aid the lost tribes in their journey home. Good luck, my extra-terrestrial friends. We'll leave the light on for you...



--Reuben--Simeon--Levi--Issachar--Zebulun--Dan--Naphtali--Gad---Asher--Joseph--
Isa. 11:10-16; Jer. 3:18; 16:14-21; 1 Ne. 22:4-12; 2 Ne. 10:21-22; 3 Ne. 15: 13-15; 16:1-5; D&C 133:26-35.63




















Footnotes:

1. Hi! Glad to see you're reading the footnotes...

2. Joseph Smith 1:37

3. Jeremiah 16:15

4. Solomon's son, and rightful heir of the throne through the lineage of David

5. Deuteronomy 28:25-64

6. 2 Nephi 9:2

7. Lee, Harold B. The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator.

8. See D&C 33:27

9. 2 Esdras 13:40-47. (See footnote 10 for a discussion of the usefulness of this passage as historical fact.) Elder George Reynolds spoke of this passage in his book Are We of Israel? In it, he speculated as to the exact route the tribe could have followed based on the report of Esdras. He wrote, "They determined to go to a country 'where never man dwelt,' that they might be free from all contaminating influences. That country could only be found in the north. Southern Asia was already the seat of a comparatively ancient civilization; Egypt flourished in Northern Africa; and southern Europe was rapidly filling with the future rulers of the world. They had therefore no choice but to turn their faces northward. The first portion of their journey was not however, north; according to the account of Esdras, they appear to have at first moved in the direction of their old home; and it is possible that they originally started with the intention of returning thereto: or probably, in order to deceive the Assyrians, they started as if to return to Canaan, and when they crossed the Euphrates and were out of danger from the hosts of Medes and Persians, then they turned their journeying feet toward the polar star. Esdras states that they entered in at the narrow passage of the river Euphrates, the Lord staying the springs of the flood until they were passed over. The point on the river Euphrates at which they crossed would necessarily be in its upper portion, as lower down would be too far south for their purpose. The upper course of the Euphrates lies among lofty mountains; near the village of Pastash it plunges through a gorge formed by precipices more than a thousand feet in height, and so narrow that it is bridged at the top; it shortly afterward enters the plain of Mesopotamia. How accurately this portion of the river answers to the description of Esdras of the 'Narrows' where the Israelites crossed. From the Euphrates the wandering host could take but one course in their journey northward, and that was along the back or eastern shore of the Black Sea. All other roads were impassable to them, as the Caucasian range of mountains with only two or three passes throughout its whole extent, ran as a lofty barrier from the Black to the Caspian Sea. To go east would take them back to Media, and a westward journey would carry them through Asia Minor to the coasts of the Mediterranean. Skirting along the Black Sea, they would pass the Caucasian range, cross the Kuban River, be prevented by the Sea of Azof from turning westward and would soon reach the present home of Don Cossaks." Reynolds, George. Are We of Israel? p. 27-28

10. Reynolds, George. Are We of Israel? p. 10-11

11. Although the conclusion of this paper is in no way dependent on this account being proven true or flawed, it is interesting and helpful to examine the reliability of the text in question. Robert L. Millet and Joseph Fielding McConkie wrote this of the Book of 2 Esdras, (or 4 Ezra, as it is also called): "Second Esdras is one of the intertestamental apocryphal books. In its present form it is believed to be a Christian writing, though the core of the work is a Jewish apocalypse commonly known as 4 Ezra. It is generally believed that its first two chapters are of Christian authorship, having been written in the second century A.D.; chapters 3-13, or the Apocalypse of Ezra, are believed to have been written toward the end of the first century A.D., and the two concluding chapters to have been written by a third-century Christian writer. The apocalypse is set in Babylon in the thirtieth year after the destruction of Jerusalem (557 B.C.). It is ascribed to a certain Salathiel (Shealtiel), who was the father of Zerubbabel, the builder of the Second Temple (see Ezra 3:2; 1 Chronicles 3:17). In 4 Ezra, however, Salathiel identifies himself as Ezra the scribe (3:1). This places him more than a century out of time sequence!... It contains a series of seven visions, primarily conversations with an angel, which are granted to Salathiel or Ezra in response to his prayers. His prayers, however, are more of a complaint than a petition, and his dialogue with the angel more of a disputation than the anticipated setting in which a prophet reverently receives instruction from a heavenly messenger. The spirit of the whole thing is clearly rather strange... Other matters that should at least raise an eyebrow include the declaration that our sovereign Lord created the erath 'without help' (3:4), that Adam was a man 'burdened with an evil heart' (3:21), that 'it would have been better if the earth had not produced Adam, or else, when it had produced him, had restrained him from sinning' (7:116-117), and that God does 'not grieve over the muiltitude of those who perish... for they are set on fire and burn hotly, and are extinguished' (7:61). This is a sampling of the doctrines taught in this book; we submit that it is not a good souce..." Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 104-107

12. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 107

13. See Doctrine and Covenants 91: "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha - There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly; There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men. Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated. Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth; And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom; And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen."

14. McConkie, Bruce Redd. Mormon Doctrine. p. 457-458 Also of interest in this passage, Elder McConkie notes that "in their northward journeying they were led by prophets and inspired leaders. They had their Moses and their Lehi, were guided by the spirit of revelation, kept the law of Moses, and carried with them the statutes and judgements that the Lord had given them in ages past."

15. 3 Nephi 17:4 "But now I go unto the Father, and also to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, for they are not lost unto the Father, for he knoweth whither he hath taken them."

16. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 107

17. Little, James A. & Richards, Franklin D., Compendium. p. 88 (See also 1 Nephi 22:4)

18. ibid.

19. D&C 133

20. Young, Roger K. As a Thief in the Night. p. 94, Footnote 1

21. Although supporting arguments are found most comprehensively in the aforementioned Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel One can, for further reading, see Millet's essay "The Second Coming of Christ" contained in the book The Doctrine and Covenants: A Book of Answers, of which the following is an excerpt: "As we all know, there have been numerous legends, traditions, vague reminiscences, and a myriad of folktales that deal with the location and eventual return of the ten lost tribes, those from the northern part of Israel who were taken captive by the Assyrians in 721BC. During my youth in the Church, I was brought up to believe a whole host of things: that the lost tribes were in the center of the earth, on a knob attached to the earth, on another planet, and so forth. Each of these traditions had its own source of authority. Since that time, and particularly since I discovered the Book of Mormon, I have concluded simply that the ten tribes are scattered among the nations, lost as much to their identity as to their whereabouts (1 Nephi 22:3-4). Thus it seems to me that the restoration, or gathering, of the ten tribes consists in scattered Israel -descendants of Jacob from such tribes as Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Zebulun, and, of course, Joseph- coming to the knowledge of the restored gospel, accepting Christ's gospel (1 Nephi 15:14) coming into the true church and fold of God (2 Nephi 9:2), congregating with the faithful and receiving the ordinances in the house of the Lord. That is to say, the ten tribes will be gathered as all others are gathered- through conversion... The return of the ten tribes is spoken of in modern revelation in majestic symbolism: 'And the Lord, even the Savior shall reign over all flesh' (D&C 133:25). Further, those who are descendants of the northern tribes shall respond to the gospel message, come under the direction of those prophets or priesthood leaders in their midst, traverse that highway we know as the 'way of holiness' (Isaiah 35:8), and eventually participate in [the] temple ordinances..."

22. Talmage, James E. The Articles of Faith. p. 340

23. "God is determined to raise up Prophets among that people, but he will not bestow upon them all the fullness of the blessings of the Priesthood. The fullness will be reserved to be given to them after they come to Zion." Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses. 18:25

24. D&C 133: 26-32

25. 2 Nephi 29:13 "...and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews."

26. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 107 (See also 2 Nephi 29:12-14)

27. Journal of Discourses. 21:301

28. History of the Church. 1:176 From a General Conference of the Church in Kirtland, 3-6th June, 1831. (Reported by John Whitmer)

29. See Footnote 13

30. Millet and McConkie conclude by explaining that "In a revealed explanation of [Revelation 10:11] the Lord told Joseph Smith 'that it was a mission, and an ordinance, for [John] to gather the tribes of Israel' (D&C 77:14). The Book of Mormon tells us that John's fellow laborers, the Three Nephites, were told that they would labor among every nation, kindred, tongue and perople to gather scattered Israel. The record also states that they would labor among the Jews and Gentiles and that the Jews and Gentiles would not know them (see 3 Nephi 28:27-29). That, it appears, is the pattern for John's ministry also." Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 114

31. History of the Church. 1:315

32. Talmage, James E. Conference Report, Apr. 1916, p. 130

33. McConkie, Bruce Redd. A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. p. 521

34. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 111

35. James E. Talmage, 87th Semi-annual conference of the church, October 8th, 1916 (CR Oct. 1916 p. 76)

36. President Smith wrote here "If this be not true, then the commission of Moses to the Prophet Joseph Smith is without meaning, wherein we read '...and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.' (D&C 110:11) The statement that the tribes are to be led from the North harmonizes perfectly with the words of Jeremiah (Jer. 16:14-15) and section 133, verses 26-34." And of the cited scripture (D&C 110:11), Bruce R. McConkie wrote "This great gathering will take place under the direction of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for he holds the keys... Keys are the right of presidency, the power to direct; and by this power the Lost Tribes will return, with 'their prophets' and their scriptures to 'be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.'D&C. 133:26-35)" McConkie, Bruce Redd. Mormon Doctrine. p. 458

37. ST p. 158-160 Italics added.

38. Article of Faith 10: "We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory."

39. Whitney, Orson F. Saturday Night Thoughts. p. 174

40. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 115

41. Jeremiah 23:7-8

42. 1 Nephi 22:4

43. Young, Roger K. As a Thief in the Night. p. 97-98

44. Bible Dictionary. "Israel, Kingdom of." p. 708

45. See Footnote 31

46. Smith, Joseph Fielding. Doctrines of Salvation. Volume 2, p. 312

47. A thorough refutation of this theory is contained in the book The House of Israel, by E.L. Whitehead, Appendix 3, p.578-579. Very few today continue to hold to this theory of the ten tribes location, but a portion of Whiteheads counter-argument is reproduced here: "This... is compiled with the sole thought in mind of aiding those who have labored under the impression that the ten tribes, so-called, are still in isolation somewhere in the north, presumably near the North Pole... Some are insisting the Ten Tribes are circumscribed by the huge ice floes and waters of Arctic. Not only is it scientifically impossible, but most certainly improbable that the Lord would take his chosen vine, unto whom He had assigned the responsibility of blessing the nation, and isolate them in a region where they would become drones to the Promise, and impossible servants to the plan for the destiny of Israel."

48. Of course, anything is possible unto the Lord, and if He wished by some miracle for the lost tribes to remain on earth in a group but escape the notice of man, then most certainly they would so remain.

49. Skousen, Eric N. Earth, in the Beginning. p. 261 (See also, D&C 38:4, Moses 7:21, 31, 68-69; Joseph Smith, October 5th, 1840, Words. p. 41; Brigham Young, April 20th, 1865, Journal of Discourses 3:320)

50. McConkie, Bruce Redd, Mormon Doctrine. p. 855 (Moses 7:62-63 "...righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four corners of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem. And the Lord said unto Enoch: Then shalt thou and thy city meet them there, and we will receive them into our bosom, and they shall see us...") Italics added.

51. Millet, Robert L. and McConkie, Joseph Fielding. Our Destiny: The Call and Election of the House of Israel. p. 107.

52. Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses. 18:25 (See also footnote 22)

53. Revelations 6:13

54. Parley P. Pratt. Millennial Star. Vol. 1:258, February 1841

55. Cowley, Matthias F. Wilford Woodruff. Bookcraft, 1964, p. 448

56. Wilford Woodruff Journals. Under date of December 21st 1859. (Also see September 25th 1859)

57. Orson Pratt., Letter box of Orson Pratt. Church Historian's Office, "Letter to John C. Hall, December 13th, 1875."

58. Richards, Franklin D. LDS Hymns: Sacred Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Deseret News Company of SLC. Italics added.

59. Smith, Robert W. Scriptural and Secular Prophecies Pertaining to the Last Days. Pyramid Press, 1948 p. 211-216

60. Elder McConkie proceeds to destroy other crucial elements of my basic thesis by asserting that "The myth of the Ten Tribes returning as guided by their prophets... simply is not true; there will be no prophets among them except the elders of Israel who belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Ten Tribes are to come back like anyone else: by accepting the Book of Mormon and believing the restored gospel. There cannot be two separate and independent church organizations on earth at one and the same time; at least it cannot be in a day when it is possible to govern the Church from one place. The President of the Church holds the keys whereby the Ten Tribes will be led from the lands of the north to their Palestinian homeland. He, not they, will direct their return. But will they not bring their scriptures with them? Probably not; at least there is no such promise. Yes, we and they will have their scriptures; and those scriptures will tell of the visit of the Risen Lord among their forebears. How they shall be brought to light is not known. It may be in much the same way the Book of Mormon was revealed to the world. And once again it will be by or under the direction of the President of the Church, for he holds the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom and of the things that are sealed and hidden up. [Concerning the] notions about the triumphal return of the Ten Tribes; many of these ideas, though true when properly interpreted, give a wholly false view of what is to be when they are simply paraphrased from the scriptures. In the literal sense of the word, the Ten Tribes will not return with armies and trumpets and banners; with the ice flowing down at their presence; on a highway spanning oceans and continents over which their legions shall march in regal majesty. Their return will be marvelous, with miracles attending. They will tread the highway of righteousness, and it will be as though a nation had been born in a day, because the wicked will have been destroyed and the Lord himself will be reigning on earth. The return of the Ten Tribes is, of course, a Millennial event." McConkie, Bruce Redd. A New Witness for the Articles of Faith. p. 520-521

61. In his October 1916 conference address quoted earlier, Elder James E. Talmage prophesied concerning when the ten tribes will return. "The tribes shall come; they are not lost unto the Lord; they shall be brought forth as hath been predicted; and I say unto you there are those now living-- aye, some here present -- who shall live to read the records of the Lost tribes of Israel, which shall be made one with the record of the Jews, or the Holy Bible, and the record of the Nephites, or the Book of Mormon, even as the Lord hath predicted: and those records, which the tribes lost to man but yet to be found again shall bring, shall tell of the visit of the resurrected Christ to them, after He had manifested himself to the Nephites on this continent." (See Footnote 34)

62. Jeremiah 16:14-15

63. Prophecies of their return. Bible Dictionary. "Israel, Kingdom of." p. 708

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

That email made me ponder that if they are on what is essentially another world, then maybe they have unique animals among them long extinct here etc... The possibilities are fascinating. It would also change the year length, seasons, daylight hours... fascinating ramifications.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

That will make for one interesting highway across the great deep! That also brings up UFO's and only those who belong to this planet administering to it. I still put stock in the long chain of the Rocky mountains bit. They may dock their landers up North, but they're hiking it down from there :lol:

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Bridgey
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Bridgey »

Couldn't you also say that living in hollow earth is literally not on this earth??? but rather inside of the earth? Just an interesting thought.

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BroJones
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by BroJones »

Roughly fifteen years ago, I picked up a book entitled "The Hollow Earth." To its credit, it defines what it means by a "hollow earth": a shell about 1200 miles thick (per recall) with large holes in the north and south pole. People inside are pulled outward by gravity as well as a small "centrifugal force". There is a star inside to give light to the plants and animals inside.

It is important to have a well-defined hypothesis in science, in order to apply facts and test/challenge the hypothesis following the scientific method. The above hypothesis is well-defined and can be studied scientifically -- it can be verified or falsified with experiments.

So I presented the theory to students routinely in my Physics 121 classes -- it was fun and challenging to let them use the scientific method to try to sort it out.

They were able to do this -- and I present the same challenge to you. It is more than a mere exercise, in that it teaches a process to avoid becoming scammed or deceived. The students enjoyed it, and I hope you will, too. Two hints: what is the gravitational force "outward" for someone living inside a spherical shell? How do seismic waves travel through such a shell?

If you have a different hypothesis, bring that forth with details such that it can be examined scientifically.

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Bridgey
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Bridgey »

I would be interested in hearing the results and why. I don't have the understanding myself to conduct this research, but would be an open observer

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Darren
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Darren »

The Hollow Earth Theory is just a guess based on cloud formations at the north pole and wild tales, just like the Lost Ten Tribes living on another planet is based on UFO activity. These theories become popular for those unaware of the Lord’s workings concerning us.

We and our ancestrally related North European cousins are literally the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel.
The Ancestors of the Germanic Peoples arrived in “Scandza,” the great Island that later became the Scandinavian Peninsula (Finland was under water in Ancient Times), in about 600 BC.

The Patriarch, Father Israel, blessed his Grandson, Ephraim, that he would succeed him as the Patriarch of the Human Family of Adam and that “his seed shall become a multitude of nations Genesis 48:19,” so the ancestors of the “multitude of nations” that became the Germanic Peoples arrived in Scandza at about the time when one would expect, after Babylon conquered Assyria (somewhat before 600 BC).

Babylon released its enslaved Captive Peoples, including the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel, who said, in the Book of Esdras, in the Apocrypha, at the time of their release, “Let us go to a Northern Land, where man has never been; and there we will keep the commandments that we never kept in our own land.”
The Yingling Saga speaks of a second migration of Israelites from the Middle East to Germanic Northern Europe around the year 40 A.D. This was a migration of a large population of Christians to relocate with their brethren in the North.
And, then, what percentage of the persons whose ancestors come from Lands of the Germanic Peoples, in Britain, the Netherlands, the Germanies, Scandinavia, etc., are told, in their Patriarchal Blessings, that, “you are a descendant of Ephraim”?
The Lord said:
D&C 86:

8. Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers –

9. For ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in God –

11. Therefore, blessed are ye if ye continue in my goodness, a light unto the Gentiles, and through this priesthood, a savior unto my People Israel. The Lord hath said it. Amen.
In relation to the way that Church Members tried to “continue in” the Lord’s “goodness,” the renowned Historian, who served as the Church Historian, Leonard Arrington, said in his Book, “The United Order,” that the United Order of Tanners and the United Order of Tailors, in Salt Lake City, “were just a continuation of the English Guild System.”
We are gathering in the elect that include the Lost Ten Tribes, we are using the Internet to inform the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel of their birth right. I know the Lord will call these our brethren to come and help establish his Zion after the cleansing.

Try not to get sucked up into this lunacy of the Lost Ten Tribes coming from inside the earth or from another planet, it simply is not true.

God Bless,
Darren

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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Yes, I believe that WE are Israel, and that the others have been gathering for some time, and after a cleanse, that gathering will intensify....

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BroJones
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by BroJones »

It's going to be a busy week, won't have much time on the forum... but to answer the questions i raised:
Roughly fifteen years ago, I picked up a book entitled "The Hollow Earth." To its credit, it defines what it means by a "hollow earth": a shell about 1200 miles thick (per recall) with large holes in the north and south pole. People inside are pulled outward by gravity as well as a small "centrifugal force". There is a star inside to give light to the plants and animals inside.

It is important to have a well-defined hypothesis in science, in order to apply facts and test/challenge the hypothesis following the scientific method. The above hypothesis is well-defined and can be studied scientifically -- it can be verified or falsified with experiments.

So I presented the theory to students routinely in my Physics 121 classes -- it was fun and challenging to let them use the scientific method to try to sort it out.

They were able to do this -- and I present the same challenge to you. It is more than a mere exercise, in that it teaches a process to avoid becoming scammed or deceived. The students enjoyed it, and I hope you will, too. Two hints: what is the gravitational force "outward" for someone living inside a spherical shell? How do seismic waves travel through such a shell?
what is the gravitational force "outward" for someone living inside a spherical shell?
The answer is "zero." Because gravity is a 1/r-squared force, and the area of a spherical section varies as r-squared, the forces pulling one way balance the forces pulling the other way, adding up to zero. (Can also be proved using Calculus).
Worse than that, though, with a STAR inside the earth -- for then the inhabitants "inside" would be quickly pulled into this star!

How do seismic waves travel through such a shell?
Seismic wave behavior would be much different than observed. Earthquakes produce such waves, P and S waves, and by studying these at stations all over the earth, scientists have been able to "X-ray" the inside of the earth. It is not hollow. Rather there is a core of liquid iron+nickel (mostly) in the center of the earth.

See how facts, experiments and the scientific method can "demolish" false hypotheses? (BTW, we do the same thing with the "official story" regarding the collapses of the WTC skyscrapers on 9/11 -- experiments show that more than gravity was at work here!)

Re: Scientific method: see also Elder Richard G. Scott's talk at the last Gen Conf! Great talk.

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Bridgey
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Bridgey »

Oh well, there is one theory I will be letting go of. Thanks for the explanation. It was fun to imagine it for awhile though. Yeah I listened to that GC talk. Very good. I wish the world was more open to the same scientific methods disproving Global Warming being Man Made or like you said the Twin Towers collapsing.
Thanks again

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a-train
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Location: Kansas City - The Real Zion
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by a-train »

A History Channel program on NAZI spiritualism last night told of their belief or at least questions into a hollow earth theory.

-a-train

Proud 2b Peculiar
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Proud 2b Peculiar »

Years ago, a friend of mine served a mission in Russia. He talked about a book that he found in a pawn shop that was a rare book. (the other copies had been destroyed by fire) And it talked about Christ visiting those people as a Resurrected being.

My Cousin, who is also Cherokee, has spoken of records that discuss Christ, but only those that can read Cherokee are allowed to read them.

I have Native American friends that mention a large amount of records that they have recorded on skins etc.. that they have preserved for a very long time, and that they cover 4000 years of history, but they will not give them to any 'white men' because they will not believe them, and would destroy them.

So who knows, but it would be awesome to read all of these..

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ChelC
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by ChelC »

Way too bizarre for me to even think about.

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Robert
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Robert »

I am a simple man, so my thoughts are simple. Scriptures are simple. The scriptures say that this planet was a home built for God's children. If I could build a planet that was hollow, then I would. Think of all of the materials that would be saved. You could build 3 or 4 hollow planets for every one solid planet. That would also include 6 to 8 times more surface area. Homes are hollow. I think that it is a mistake to try to use man's knowledge to figure out the mysteries of god. Mans knowledge has changed ever since the begining. Remember we thought the earth was flat not so long ago. I dont put much faith in man's knowledge anymore. The scriptures do seam to point to something strange like this. 50% of me says Hollow Earth. 50% of me says Demensional/other planet. Niether of which I understand.

I Dont really know. It is just a fun thought.

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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by SwissMrs&Pitchfire »

For the record, I still believe that the groups are those of the Northern Countries of Europe and Siberia and North America. They are commonly referred to as the reindeer herders. I have heard something of their anti-shamans (prophets) and strange occurrences up North. They were persecuted by the Soviets and their holy men taken away and killed or imprisoned. Likely they hid up their records and have a legitimate fear to bring them forth now (anyone watched Putin or Russia lately). Search them out and read up on them see if they (still several distinct groups and languages) do not fit the bill.
Although the current archaeological, anatomical, linguistic and genetic data do not provide a consistent story, there are some common themes in the main stages of the history of the peopling of Siberia. The precise antiquity of anatomically modern humans in the Old World Arctic is still not known.
Image
At present, 31 indigenous ethnic groups live in the territories of Siberia and the Altai. Although most populations differ in their origin, language, and culture, they are characterized by common types of economic activities: hunting, fishing, reindeer-breeding and herding.
..., a pattern has emerged indicating a considerable degree of genetic differentiation among Siberian populations, especially among those populations living in the extreme North.
Native Siberian populations represent one of the least studied groups in the world. These populations may preserve evidence in their genomes of the history of population bifurcations, movements and mergers (i.e., the separation of the European and Asian gene pools and the formation of the Native American gene pool).


http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/peopling_siberia.html

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Robert
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Robert »

That is a good read. I just dont see these people striking rocks and water comeing from them. People always take one or the other. Maybe it is both or all of the above. Ephraim are part of the lost 10 tribes. We are being "gathered".

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by HeirofNumenor »

For the record, I still believe that the groups are those of the Northern Countries of Europe and Siberia and North America. They are commonly referred to as the reindeer herders. I have heard something of their anti-shamans (prophets) and strange occurrences up North. They were persecuted by the Soviets and their holy men taken away and killed or imprisoned. Likely they hid up their records and have a legitimate fear to bring them forth now (anyone watched Putin or Russia lately). Search them out and read up on them see if they (still several distinct groups and languages) do not fit the bill.
Swiss, your comment reminds me of a subplot in the fictional series "Millennial Glory" by Wendie L. Edwards. In this series, she places the 10 Tribes to be in Siberia, in the Arctic regions of the Soviet Far East. Yes, they are reindeer herders.

Her plot device has these people as completely unaware of their ancestry and heritage, and John & the 3 Nephites teaching them now to reawaken them to their prophetic destiny.
See the series' Book V "Hanging by a Thread" Chapter 1 endnotes, pp.16-27 for detailed discussion of the 10 Tribes, and her reasons for placing them as she did.

BTW, this is one of THREE book series that I call "LDS verisons of the "Left Behind" series."

The other 2 series are: the "Seventh Seal" trilogy by Jessica Draper & Richard D. Draper;
"The Great and the Terrible" by Chris Stewart (4 books and counting).

"Millennial Glory "has 6 books so far, with book 7 due out this July.

Rock34
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Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Rock34 »

I don't think anyone outside a few government and science elites know for sure, but I like to believe there are people and other life on the inside. It would also open up more possibilities for extra-terrestrial life, as many planets have no liveable surface atmosphere.

A few coast2coast interviews on the subject by people who have devoted their lives to studying it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRMxJh5LFVI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFN4b0plmRE

Here's an LDS guy talking about it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIRdDA_EDfM

There are some others on Youtube, but these seem to have a more Christian, scriptural and scientific perspective while others just seem occult and "New Age" (probably worth a look anyway).

Now I know most Mormons won't believe it, but I personally think it's probably more integral to scripture than previously thought. How else does one explain millennial life spans and giants in the Bible and other scripture? There was probably a different environment and gravity.

I think the "rivers" in Genesis were great water bodies on the inside. I know Joseph Smith said it was Missouri, and the Bible says Mesopotamia, but could it be that both areas were modeled on a primal land from which humans sprang inside this earth? "The Garden of Eden" may just be the whole of the interior earth.

Joseph Smith also said people lived "on" the moon. Could he really have meant the inside? Some that feel smug by mentioning this statement (and how it "disproves" his prophetic role) may have missed original intention altogether. Sure it could have been a guess or opinion, but how do we know he was wrong? The moon may have a working living environment on the inside. I'm almost certain people have been living on Mars somehow or another. Just examine the pyramids and the mysterious "face". Maybe they were internal dwellers that built some monuments on the outside.

Also I like to think most UFOs are not extra-terrestrial, but inner-terrestrial in origin. That said, I'm I pretty sure interstellar and interplanetary travel are common among higher extraterrestrial peoples.

BTW, has anyone considered the technology behind the first vision before? A "light beam from the sky". Was it a space ship in orbit, that beamed these divine Beings down? I guess this is another subject altogether, but I believe God to have many technologies in his kindgom. Just look at the Liahona and Urim and Thummin. Could these not be viewed as advanced "technology" that harness the spiritual as well as physical? After all, both are but part of a whole.

Rock34
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Posts: 249

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Rock34 »

Bridgey wrote:I have also heard the theory that the 10 lost tribes of Israel could be living in hollow earth, which could make sense in that the conditions were different back then and it may have been possible for them to make that journey. But then, Govt would probably know about them which kind of goes against the prophecy??? However, somehow they need to make their trek to the USA at one stage or another. In a cold winter you can cross over Russia and Alaska to get to the USA. Regardless, what do you guys think of the theory?
Governments cover these types of things up. They do so partly to "protect" the people (just see the fictionalized and fantasized "Men In Black" movie, which is based partly in fact). "A person is smart, people are dumb and panicky" or something to that effect. If a hollow earth empire was discovered that was potentially more powerful than anything on the surface, you can safely bet the government will hide it from the masses.

I think the 1938 reaction to the Halloween radio broadcast of "War of the Worlds" gives government legitimate reason to worry about public panic.

Rock34
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Posts: 249

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Rock34 »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:I voted "unsure" since I have never been there. The deepest I have dug down was a few feet...
The deepest anyone in modern known history has dug is 20 miles. This was done by Russians during the Communist era.

Rock34
captain of 100
Posts: 249

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Rock34 »

DrJones wrote:Roughly fifteen years ago, I picked up a book entitled "The Hollow Earth." To its credit, it defines what it means by a "hollow earth": a shell about 1200 miles thick (per recall) with large holes in the north and south pole. People inside are pulled outward by gravity as well as a small "centrifugal force". There is a star inside to give light to the plants and animals inside.

It is important to have a well-defined hypothesis in science, in order to apply facts and test/challenge the hypothesis following the scientific method. The above hypothesis is well-defined and can be studied scientifically -- it can be verified or falsified with experiments.

So I presented the theory to students routinely in my Physics 121 classes -- it was fun and challenging to let them use the scientific method to try to sort it out.

They were able to do this -- and I present the same challenge to you. It is more than a mere exercise, in that it teaches a process to avoid becoming scammed or deceived. The students enjoyed it, and I hope you will, too. Two hints: what is the gravitational force "outward" for someone living inside a spherical shell? How do seismic waves travel through such a shell?

If you have a different hypothesis, bring that forth with details such that it can be examined scientifically.
Well this book is somewhat more recent and Mr. Lamprecht tackles stuff like seismic waves and gravity (which he believes is centered around shells and pushing, rather than solids and pulling)
http://www.hollowplanets.com/

I haven't read it yet, and probably wouldn't come close to your Physics expertise, Dr. Jones, but I'd be interested in seeing what you think of his findings. He also studied the odd shape of Mercury's meteor collision points, and how the larger craters would tend back towards a fixed shell, kind of like a wiffle ball would when dented and repaired.

BTW, he's not a "believer" of Hollow Earth so much as one who tests out the feasibility of the concept. The second Youtube video I linked in the above post is his interview.

Rock34
captain of 100
Posts: 249

Re: Hollow Earth Theory

Post by Rock34 »

SwissMrs&Pitchfire wrote:For the record, I still believe that the groups are those of the Northern Countries of Europe and Siberia and North America. They are commonly referred to as the reindeer herders. I have heard something of their anti-shamans (prophets) and strange occurrences up North. They were persecuted by the Soviets and their holy men taken away and killed or imprisoned. Likely they hid up their records and have a legitimate fear to bring them forth now (anyone watched Putin or Russia lately). Search them out and read up on them see if they (still several distinct groups and languages) do not fit the bill.
Although the current archaeological, anatomical, linguistic and genetic data do not provide a consistent story, there are some common themes in the main stages of the history of the peopling of Siberia. The precise antiquity of anatomically modern humans in the Old World Arctic is still not known.
Image
At present, 31 indigenous ethnic groups live in the territories of Siberia and the Altai. Although most populations differ in their origin, language, and culture, they are characterized by common types of economic activities: hunting, fishing, reindeer-breeding and herding.
..., a pattern has emerged indicating a considerable degree of genetic differentiation among Siberian populations, especially among those populations living in the extreme North.
Native Siberian populations represent one of the least studied groups in the world. These populations may preserve evidence in their genomes of the history of population bifurcations, movements and mergers (i.e., the separation of the European and Asian gene pools and the formation of the Native American gene pool).


http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/peopling_siberia.html
I think the Siberians and other related groups are more connected to Mahonri Moriancumr's covenant than Abraham's. Not all crossed the freezing seas near the Bering Strait in thermal wooden submarines called "barges". Some stayed in along the shores of the Pacific, and Migrated east along the subarctic regions of Asia and northern Europe, as well as south in to China. I don't believe all Jaredites were wiped out, and even if Coriantumr was the only survivor, his line would still continue. Ether probably was unaware of isolated groups that avoided the last war.

Some Abrahamic religions are probably what some refer to as "Sun Worshippers" or "Aryans". The Vedic religious conquerors of India even had Abraham's name in forms of (A-)"Brahmin", (A-)"Brahman", etc. The word "Brahmana" denoted scholar/teacher, priest -- all of which were Abraham. We know from the Book of Mormon that the so-called "Sun-Worshippers" of Central America were in fact an Israelite sect, largely of Judah and Manasseh.

Zoroastrianism is another "Sun-Worshipping" religion, which more clearly connected their sun worship and fire worship to the worship of Akura Mazda, or their equivalent to what we know as Elohim or Heavenly Father. Some even claim Christianity heavily borrowed from Zoroastrianism, they are so similar. (Also "Magis", which some refer to the "3 wise men" as, are Zoroastrian in origin)

Abraham was more than just Israel or Christianity, as the sons of Keturah, Ishmael (Islam), and Esau (remnants of Judah + Esau = Judaism, merged in the era of the Maccabees) were all of the Abrahamic covenant. I think Keturah's sons were closely connected to the migrating and conquering Sun worshippers. Also Egypt probably got much of it's sun worship from Abraham's visit. The reason for the Sun worship can be seen in the Book of Abraham, as Kolob is said to directly power the sun, so it symbolized the power of God throughout his dominion.

Mahonri Moriancumr's ancestry was not given, but I think he descended from Japheth. Since Shem's called the "great high priest" D&C 138:41, maybe all selected "high priests" descended from him. But since Japheth is the literal firstborn, I think he had a covenant as well. Some of Ham's covenants are mentioned in the Pearl of Great Price, and I think they were more of the secular variety ("blessed in government", etc.). Early Pharoahs, Assyrian and Babylonian rulers all came from Ham, according to scripture.

In this dispensation of the fulness of times, all covenants come into one, so Mahonri Moriancumr's and Abraham's covenants, along with any others, become scattered "Israel" in this dispensation. Also, many groups in ancient times already combined or mixed the covenants, such as Lehites and their descendants.

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