Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers

[jo1952]

In looking at the 1835 version of the D&C, we discovered that section 101 (regarding “Marriage”) became section 109 in the 1844 version of the D&C. In the 1876 version of the D&C, the 1844 version section 109 was completely deleted; and was replaced with a new section 109---the dedicatory prayer for the Kirtland Temple which prayer was given back on March 27, 1836 (a date preceding the 1844 version of the D&C which did not include the dedicatory prayer---at least not that I could easily discover). Section 132 was an additional revelation which showed up in the 1876 version of the D&C (though there is a confusion of when, exactly, the contents of Section 132 were received, all of the speculative dates preceded the year 1844); which had not previously been published in any versions of the D&C. Interestingly, the biggest promoter of polygamy was Brigham Young, who died the very next year after section 132 was added! So I looked up the history of the D&C and found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctrine_and_Covenants

In 1876, Section 101 from the 1835 Edition (and subsequent printings) was removed. Section 101 was a Statement on Marriage as adopted by a conference of the church,[9][10] and contained the following text:

“Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.”[11]

It was superseded by section 132 of the modern LDS edition, recorded in 1843, which contains a revelation received by Joseph Smith on eternal marriage and teaches the doctrine of plural marriage, the principles of which can be dated to as early as 1831.

ONLY as a result of our involvement with apologetics were we made aware that the Lectures on Faith had been removed when the 1921 version of the D&C was published. For the same reason we became aware that the original Book of Commandments which was published in1833, was the foundation of the 1835 publication of the Doctrine and Covenants. We became disturbed to discover that there were major changes from the 1833 publication versus the 1835 publication of the same sections. We would not have known that those changes had been made if we had not been doing a search to find original sources….as it had not occurred to me to ever question our Standard Works. I had no idea that changes had ever been made. I thought that the same Standard Works and revelations being taught to me when I joined the Church in 1974 were the same Standard Works and revelations (other than perhaps typos and punctuation changes) taught by Joseph when he was alive (accept, of course, any revelations received after his death).

With the discovery of so many contextual changes, I have been astounded. One of the reasons I joined the Church (aside from the powerful testimony I received about the Book of Mormon) was because we were a church which was still receiving revelation. This was one of the biggest “selling” points used by the Church. What the Church did NOT tell me was that they were also making changes to our Standard Works...or more importantly, making changes to those revelations; some even being completely lost.

The history of the Church is nigh impossible to nail down. We are taught to do due diligence in our studies of scripture. But the Church itself has made such distortion of the history (even making it unavailable) of our own scripture, how are we supposed to do a true due diligent searching of scripture? How do we even know which version is the "correct" version???

When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear.

How the heck are we supposed to be able to heed that quote? The “accepted revelations of the Church” as decided by its constituted authorities is going through changes, revisions, deletions, and such which are not being disclosed to us. Why are such things even necessary??? Wasn’t the Lord the one who originally gave us the revelations? That’s what I’ve been taught….that the revelations were given directly by the Lord!! Did He change His mind on the words He “meant” to say? And what of those received through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Were those inspirations not legitimate? If all I had was the 1844 version of the D&C (which version, btw, is the last version which Joseph approved--so he did not approve any changes which were made, which changes were to things dated prior to those dated and approved by Joseph), how would I even realize that this version is NOT the currently accepted version of today’s constituted authorities? According to the above quote, how would I know that I was believing in beliefs which were not of God?

Has the Church made changes, revisions, deletions, and such to the context of the version of the Book of Mormon which I was first given when I joined the Church? I haven’t bothered to try to make comparisons…why should I have to worry about it? Why should I need to now doubt? The KJV of the Bible I am using has not gone through those types of changes, revisions, deletions, and such from the time I joined the Church. The only changes I am aware that have been made to this Bible, are in the footnotes made by the Church, and commentaries and such.

WHAT IS GOING ON?? My salvation is at stake here!!!

All I can determine at this point is that this is all a part of opposition which will continually spurn us on to NOT depend upon the arm of flesh. That God allows these things to take place because the confusion is not being caused by God….but by man. And it is the opposition and the confusion which can cause us to give ourselves up to Christ—even on a daily basis---because we can certainly not figure it all out for ourselves.

I HAVE lost confidence in the leaders; but my faith is such that I believe in God, AND believe God…that I believe in Christ, AND I believe Christ---even more so now than I ever thought possible, because now I have so much more to believe!! As a result, the heavens have opened to me personally; and truth is pouring in…even pure knowledge—which thing I had only gotten glimpses of just a few short years ago. I get angry; but at the same time, I recognize that these things are being allowed BECAUSE they help cause us to depend upon God first; and NOT upon man (something I didn’t even realize I had been doing). These are the very types of circumstances which help cause us, after all we can do, to turn to God first and give ourselves up entirely to Him. This is what divides the wheat from the tares. It gives me even more opportunity to learn how to love and forgive others better. It is not easy; in fact, it is really hard to go through this awakening.

Without all of the confusion and opposition I have experienced as a member of the Church…which circumstances were created because I was such an active member of the Church, I would not have been able to actually learn to discern the Holy Spirit, or be thrown into the fires of my baptism. For this, I am so truly thankful. But now I struggle with what to do next. The Church still provides the atmosphere which serves the same purpose for others which she has served for me. The Church’s presence is still finding place in my personal progression; specifically, my ability to forgive better…to love better---though I still struggle with the need to warn, teach, and assist others, and maintain some type of semblance of balance. Basically, to continue the process for which we are all here…to be tested in all things.

[log]

What you should do next is cry mightily to be as clean and as pure and as filled with light, love, and joy, as you were when you were born again.

From thence, follow the spirit in all things.

What else was there ever to it?

[Amonhi]

Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

It seems that some people would define apostasy as disagreeing with the brethren or leaving the church. However, the earth was in apostasy for hundreds of years while there was no valid church on the earth. The apostasy ended when a 14 year old boy pierced the veil and spoke with God. But the apostasy ended only for him. We are each in apostasy until we also breach the veil and speak with God.

I think a person can be in good standing with the church, believe all its doctrines, follow its leaders and still be in apostasy with God. And if a person is apostate with regard to God, then not much else matters. Its like the BoM teaches,

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he awithheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of bunbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. - Moro. 7:36-38

[Amonhi]

May I add something?

[*] Through the process of Temple Recommends, we judge people's worthiness to receive saving ordinances. (What?? I thought that being a sinner qualified us for being saved. Rather than bringing people closer to Christ, our Temples block living people from getting to Him; since some of us aren't worthy of being saved.)

I hear you. There are a few things that don't sit right with me, like this, in regard to the temple system. But what can you do?

[jo1952]

It seems that some people would define apostasy as disagreeing with the brethren or leaving the church. However, the earth was in apostasy for hundreds of years while there was no valid church on the earth. The apostasy ended when a 14 year old boy pierced the veil and spoke with God. But the apostasy ended only for him. We are each in apostasy until we also breach the veil and speak with God.

I think a person can be in good standing with the church, believe all its doctrines, follow its leaders and still be in apostasy with God. And if a person is apostate with regard to God, then not much else matters. Its like the BoM teaches,

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he awithheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of bunbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. - Moro. 7:36-38

I have, in the recent past, come to realize that apostasy does not have to do with whether or not you belong to any particular organized religious institution; rather, it has to do with your personal relationship with God. You bring an even higher level of understanding to apostasy. Thank you.

[Simon]

Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

It seems that some people would define apostasy as disagreeing with the brethren or leaving the church. However, the earth was in apostasy for hundreds of years while there was no valid church on the earth. The apostasy ended when a 14 year old boy pierced the veil and spoke with God. But the apostasy ended only for him. We are each in apostasy until we also breach the veil and speak with God.

I think a person can be in good standing with the church, believe all its doctrines, follow its leaders and still be in apostasy with God. And if a person is apostate with regard to God, then not much else matters. Its like the BoM teaches,

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he awithheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. - Moro. 7:36-38

This scripture really should tell us something. We honestly need to ask, do we, do I receive angels and visions? No doubt, there are counterfeit visions and angels, but that doesn't change that we truely MUST have such things, otherwise we have prooven unfaithfull. It is not enough to have feelings, emotions and and impressions. If these things don't happen, ALL IS VAIN. This shows how neccesary the ministering of angels to US is a MUST.

True prophets need to point this doctrine out, they need to show us how to get there. These are the fruits of true faith, the power though which God created all things. We need to create a relationshi with God in such a manner.

[Amonhi]

What's Amonhi's point anyway?

I guess I have a number of points, but my 3 main points are:

Point 1 - From the OP

We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil.

People get confused thinking that the Current Church Doctrine or authorized Church Doctrine is the same thing as "Truth". Many of the statements made by President Joseph F. Smith and Elder Ballard in the OP are only true if you recognize that they are talking about "Current Church Doctrine" and not "truth". Nearly the entire quote is also only valid in relation to the church, for example in this quote he says, "which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world." If I were to clarify this statement to make it absolutely clear and true, I would change it to say, "which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind regarding Current Church Doctrine, the direction of the church and His will concerning the church across the world."

There are a great many channels by which God may make his will know to the world, or even individual parts of the world, but only one by which he makes his will known to the whole church across the world. Truth can come from any source and we should realize that. It is not limited to the same constraints that Church Doctrine is. And the Prophet and Church do not hold the patent on "truth" for the world. They cannot say that truth will not come to the world except through the living prophet.

Point 2 - from the OP:

Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to God’s true prophets and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the eternal well-being of those whom they seduce...One is either for the kingdom of God and stands in defense of God’s prophets and apostles, or one stands opposed.

You can disagree with prophets and apostles and still be "for the kingdom of God". They are not exclusive. This is like saying, "Beware of those who speak and publish in opposition to America's leaders and who actively proselyte others with reckless disregard for the political well-being of those whom they seduce. One is either for the United States of America and stands in defense of the President, Senators and Congressmen or one stands opposed." If our leaders were infallible and were our God then sure I could see that we would have to agree with them all the time. But they aren't and so it is not speaking ill of them to disagree or even persuade others to believe in truths that contradict the teachings of the prophets, apostles or church.

Point 3 - We need to stop relying on the crutch of men. There was a girl who thought that if she had sex with someone she had to marry them. Then she got raped by her boyfriend who broke into her house while she was asleep and felt like she needed to marry the guy in order to be right with God's law. In God's mercy, she got raped again by another guy. She realized that she couldn't marry both of them and through a little though on her part she realized that she didn't have to marry either of them.

Regarding Prophets and apostles, many people think that they have to accept everything that they say as if it comes from God. the smart ones realize that there is so much contradiction among leaders that maybe they only have to accept everything that comes from the prophets. They believe everything the prophet/president says, true or not, until one day, in God's mercy they come across a quote from one Prophet/President that directly contradicts another Prophet/President. Realizing that they can't believe both they become free in their mind to believe either or neither. They are no longer following men, but looking for truth.

We should stop spending our time trying to determine what is Current Church Doctrine by proving it with quotes and references and spend our time looking for truth, from whatever source that truth may come from. Let the church believe and declare whatever it will and if the church believes in truth then will match up with the truth's we have learned. If not, then it won't. But using the church and prophets as the measuring stick for truth by proving quotes from prophets that contradict with truth is not going to progress us toward God, only toward the church. Know one should ever use their priesthood position or the position of someone else as a reason for believing, obeying, or doing anything.

Man, I just can't seem to make anything short and sweet.

Did that answer your question InfoWarrior82?

[Amonhi]

I agree with this. But it will not contradict revealed doctrine. It will only expand upon existing doctrine so that which was confusing is made clear.

I think if you are talking about Church doctrine, then... I don't know, maybe... I am trying to make it work here. Revealed doctrine like the Adam God Theory that was considered a saving doctrine under Brigham Young, (and for which Orson Pratt was almost disfellowshipped for and had to make public confession to avoid that disfellowship even though the was against the doctrine - CLICK HERE FOR DETAILS), hasn't been expanded on or made more clear. It was refuted and removed from Current Church Doctrine and is no longer a tenant of our beliefs today. Other doctrines like the one saying we should follow our leaders even if they are wrong at one point were preached against by Prophets/Presidents and at other point in our history were preached for.
This flip-flop in doctrine doesn't sound like what you are describing. I am not saying that what you are describing does not exist, only that it is not the way Current Church Doctrine changes throughout the history of the church. And my main point is who cares? Focus on truth and stop using Current Church Doctrine to determine what is true. We didn't accept the Book of Mormon because it is current church doctrine...

Another quote from Amonhi:

Prophets/President sometimes use the power of fear, (not of God - 2 Timothy 1:7), to bind/close our minds to "unauthorized" ideas (cult tactics BTW).

Amonhi, can you further clear up this contradiction... or at least put some substance on the table? Please, tell us what are some "unauthorized" ideas that we are told to "bind/close our minds to"?

I admit that I didn't spend a great deal of words on this one. Here is what I used to make that point, I will add the 2 Timothy scripture in where appropriate:

President Joseph F. Smith gave wise and clear counsel that applies to us today:

“We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the Priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan, and render themselves liable to become servants of the devil; they lose sight of the true order through which the blessings of the Priesthood are to be enjoyed; they step outside of the pale of the kingdom of God, and are on dangerous ground. Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the Priesthood, you may set him down as an imposter” (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 41–42).

Here we have Joseph F. Smith using fear of the being deceived by the devil to scare us away from looking for "authoritative" truth outside the "appointed channel" which he says is the priesthood.

For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. - 2 Timothy 1:7

President Smith seems to indicate that we are not capable of learning the truth of ALL things by the spirit and so we should never listen to false teachings and the only way to never listen to false teachings is to only learn those thing which our leaders tell us is true.

I will add to this the following for clarification:
President Smith is clearing using the "fear" of deception to motivate us away from even "looking" at other sources saying that the very "moment" we even look outside the "appointed channel"/"organizations of the priesthood", "that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan". Now if a good person believed that, then they would be afraid to even look for truth outside the authorized priesthood channels. They would also believe that whatever their leaders said was true because they would be afraid that if they didn't agree that it was because they were under the "seductive influences of Satan". Such statements do not empower us except to become more dependent on the church leaders and less dependent on our own revelation and ultimately God. Such statements are also the cause of many hours of psychological counseling for the treatment of cult abuse. Statements like this are why our critics say the the church is a cult. They say that because statements like this are text book examples of cult tactics. such statements create fear in their members which binds them mentally, spiritually and even emotionally to the cult and cult leaders. For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but President Smith, in this instance has.

God gives us the spirit of Power, and of love, and a sound mind. To empower people would be to teach them how to recognize truth without requiring their leaders so that they are enabled to fill their own oil lamps and light their own path rather than rely on the light of their leaders. Teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Teach them how to recognize truth from any source and they will know how to recognize truth when their leaders speak it or when anyone speaks it. It is funny to me that we trust investigators to to be able to learn from God the truth of the BoM, the role of Christ, etc. for themselves directly from God. But then, once they join the church we tell them that they can't trust their own revelations to determine truth and that they need their leaders to tell them what is true so they aren't deceived by the big scary satan monster.

Edit: I wanted to back up my claim that cults use fear to bind people to their leaders and groups. You can look up "cult tactics fear" or even just "cult tactics" on google and find 100s of sites that walk you through this process. Here is a quote from the first site I pulled up:

Manipulation through fear and guilt.

Fear and guilt are central to any thought reform/mind control program. A fearful person is one who cannot think critically and who's ability to make decisions is reduced. Cult tactics include inducing fears and phobias (strong, irrational fears) in group members to allow the leadership to maintain control. Members can believe that all sorts of horrible things may happen if they don't follow the rules, if they don't earn more money, if they leave the group or even think of leaving the group etc. - http://www.decision-making-confidence.c ... ctics.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Again, as I told Keep the Faith, I am not making a claim that cannot be verified as a fact. Either he used fear to manipulate members to only accept information that comes from the leaders of the church or he didn't. He either empowered us by adding oil to our lamps which helps us to light our own way through the dark night, or he didn't. Fact, not faith.

Does that help clarify and substantiate my claim?

Also, I am going to be very busy for the next few days, so I won't post much. I am not ignoring anyone's questions or comments.

Peace,
Amonhi

[jo1952]

Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

It seems that some people would define apostasy as disagreeing with the brethren or leaving the church. However, the earth was in apostasy for hundreds of years while there was no valid church on the earth. The apostasy ended when a 14 year old boy pierced the veil and spoke with God. But the apostasy ended only for him. We are each in apostasy until we also breach the veil and speak with God.

I think a person can be in good standing with the church, believe all its doctrines, follow its leaders and still be in apostasy with God. And if a person is apostate with regard to God, then not much else matters. Its like the BoM teaches,

36 Or have angels ceased to appear unto the children of men? Or has he awithheld the power of the Holy Ghost from them? Or will he, so long as time shall last, or the earth shall stand, or there shall be one man upon the face thereof to be saved?

37 Behold I say unto you, Nay; for it is by faith that amiracles are wrought; and it is by faith that angels appear and minister unto men; wherefore, if these things have ceased wo be unto the children of men, for it is because of unbelief, and all is vain.

38 For no man can be saved, according to the words of Christ, save they shall have faith in his name; wherefore, if these things have ceased, then has faith ceased also; and awful is the state of man, for they are as though there had been no redemption made. - Moro. 7:36-38

This scripture really should tell us something. We honestly need to ask, do we, do I receive angels and visions? No doubt, there are counterfeit visions and angels, but that doesn't change that we truely MUST have such things, otherwise we have prooven unfaithfull. It is not enough to have feelings, emotions and and impressions. If these things don't happen, ALL IS VAIN. This shows how neccesary the ministering of angels to US is a MUST.

True prophets need to point this doctrine out, they need to show us how to get there. These are the fruits of true faith, the power though which God created all things. We need to create a relationshi with God in such a manner.

Isn't it interesting that angels---not only of light, but also of darkness---are able to manifest unto men? Is that because we do exercise faith and the desire to believe? Is it even in the opposition of determining which angels are manifesting that helps us to learn about and experience God? IOW, if we aren't seeking, then neither type of angel will manifest to us.

[Simon]

I think we should truely ask ouserlves why each one of us needs to be a prophet? My simple answer would be so that we can know truth, so that we can dicern true messangers, may that be prophets or angels. To be a prophet ourselves does not mean that we neccesarely are receiving revelations for others, or that we are high ranking leaders. It simply means to receive revelation and a testimony of Christ.

1 Sam. 10:12

....Is Saul also among the Prophets?

Replace Sauls name with yours and ask yourselfe that question ?

1 Sam 10:11

...... behold, he prophesied among the prophets

There is a difference between having authority, such as the prophet of the church has the authority over the church, and between having revelations. Authority belongs only to the Prophet of the church, but revelations belong to each one of us. We often are quick to reject revelations that do not come from an authority, but this can and does happen. Christ himselfe taught this in a very special manner

3 Nephi 26:14

14 And it came to pass that he did teach and minister unto the children of the multitude of whom hath been spoken, and he did loose their tongues, and they did speak unto their fathers great and marvelous things, even greater than he had revealed unto the people; and he loosed their tongues that they could utter

He allowed the children to teach the multitude even greater things then Christ himselfe. What a humble guesture. What a great proove for oneness. What an example for prophets amongst prophets. This is a society in which people do not follow the prophet, but instead follow the truth that comes trough prophecy.

What is the key for us to dicern between true and false prophets. Miracles, wonders, logic, habbits, structurs, signs?

Deut:13:1-4

1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
4 Ye shall WALK AFTER THE LORD YOUR GOD, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey HIS voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
quote]

The key to dicerning true from false prophets will alwaysbe that WE love the Lord, that we will walk after him, that we hear his voice, or in other words, that we KNOW CHIRST.. for this is the spirit of prophecy

Revelations 19:10
...

for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

[Simon]

Isn't it interesting that angels---not only of light, but also of darkness---are able to manifest unto men? Is that because we do exercise faith and the desire to believe? Is it even in the opposition of determining which angels are manifesting that helps us to learn about and experience God? IOW, if we aren't seeking, then neither type of angel will manifest to us.

We so many examples of this, the greatest being Christ himselfe. Before he started to preach amongst the people, he was fasting fourty days in the deseret. Then came the devil to tempt him in all manners, and only after that came the angels and served him. After that he started his mission to preach and to heal.

Joseph Smith also first encountered the devil, and the he received his first vision, and it was the beginning of his mission

With Moses it was the other way around, he first saw God and then encountered the devil.. But what all have in common is the experience of both. This is how it works.

In the D&C we learn that there are many spirits wandering the earth to deceive. I think that evil spirits can easily be invited and even be seen and experienced. Many fall into deceptin with them.

[Amonhi]

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

It is a very sad thing that it is the Brethren themselves whose activities and fruit then cause members to lose confidence in them.

They are men, like you or I. What is sad is that we expect so much of them and measure the against a standard that is unreasonable for men to be on. Then we find out that they haven't met the unreasonable standard we don't excuse them and move on, we say, the church isn't true, the Gospel isn't truth, there is no God, etc.

When we make of men a rock, and it crumbles into sand, why do we blame the sand for not being a rock when we should be blaming ourselves for trying to make rocks of sand?!? The majority of our leaders are good and sincere people who are doing the best they know how. They are progressing just as we are progressing. They may be ahead of us ing some things and behind us in others. If we learn a principle of truth which our leaders have not yet learned, why should we be upset with them for not living a truth we have learned but they have not?

If we accept what they say and they are wrong, why do we get upset with them when they are telling us to check what they say with God before accepting it? And even if they have have not yet learned that they ARE fallible and make mistakes and they think that their position comes with built in error correction, and they tell you, I can't lead you astray and then you believe them and they lead you astray... Why do we get mad at them? They themselves are deceived just as much as you or I were/are. They are progressing, just like us and they are dealing with the same doctrines that we are taught. Even the Prophet thinks that if he were about to lead the church astray that he would die first. So, he does the best he can, the best he knows how. In the end he is still a man just like you or I. And as much truth as they may have gained in life, I guarantee that they do NOT know all things any more than you or I do. And as much truth as they have gained in life, they still believe in false ideas, just like you and I do. To expect anything more is unfair. To think that every word out of their lips is from God BEFORE they have said it IS BLIND following! As believing every word out of their lips BECAUSE they said it! EVEN IF THEY SAY, "THUS SAITH THE LORD."

How do you know when the Prophet/President is speaking for God? There is ONLY one way to know and it is exactly the same way you will know anyone is speaking for God.

2 Nephi 33:1 - And now I, Nephi, cannot write all the things which were taught among my people; neither am I mighty in writing, like unto speaking; for when a man speaketh by the power of the Holy Ghost the power of the Holy Ghost carrieth it unto the hearts of the children of men.

Now please be aware that the Nephites used a difficult written language called "reformed Egyptian". This writing was difficult to interpret because a single symbol could have multiple meanings or aspects depending on which symbol/word came first and what words were grouped together to make a though. In addition, it was difficult to write/press into the metal plates. They often complained that they were not powerful in writing like they were in speaking. But this does not mean that the Power of the Holy Ghost can't carry a written message to the hearts of the reader. The Brother of Jared had a better written language which was more clear because the words were specific and unique. The writer was able to express himself more accurately and clearly, so the communication was more perfect.

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;
24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.
25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. - Ether 12:25

When someone speaks or writes by the power of the Holy Ghost, then the Holy Ghost carries the message to our hearts. And it is like receiving revelation from God directly.

3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. - D&C 68:3-4

Here, the D&C is talking about Elders serving missions. It says that they are able to speak and reveal the will of the Lord and the mind of the Lord but most importantly, they are speaking with the VOICE of the Lord, which is the spirit. And the audience will know that they are doing so because the holy Ghost carries that revelation to the hearts of the audience so that the audience receives it as if it came from God because it is spoke with the voice of God, (so it did come from God).

This is why the scripture says, "whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same." (D&C 1:38). It is the same because whether God is speaking to us directly or through his servants, it comes to us the same way, WITH the power of the Holy Ghost which is the voice of the Lord. If you are reading something or listening to someone and you DO NOT feel the power of the Holy Ghost, then they are not speaking/writing with the power of the Holy Ghost and it is not from God. If you are reading or listening to a talk and you feel like you are receiving revelation, then it is the Holy Ghost communicating to you that what was written and or spoke was from God.

Anyone who has the Holy Ghost can speak/write by the power of the Holy Ghost and have this effect. It is so powerful that if done correctly, even those who want to disbelieve can't. It is the power of God unto the convincing of men.

Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men. - D&C 11:21

This is what 3rd Nephi used when it was written:

And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily. - 3 Ne. 7:18

This is the power of God to the convincing of men. Nephi called it the tongue of angels.

Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. - 2 Ne. 32:2

Again, the way to know when someone is speaking for God, is by realizing that they MUST be speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost which carries their message into your heart and mind. Your experience is the same as if God were speaking to you directly, as if you were receiving personal revelation. If you do not feel like you received personal revelation, then it was not God speaking but man.

To back me up as another witness, I will call on J. Reuben Clark.

After reading D&C 68:3-5 he said,

"The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”; yet only when they do speak as “moved upon” is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”? I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak." - When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?, Church News (31 July 1954)

Your humble servant,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Here are some examples of people speaking with the tongue of angels:

Mark 1:22
22 And they were astonished at his doctrine: for he taught them as one that had authority, and not as the scribes.

The scribes quote prophets and scripture trying to prove Church doctrine. Christ taught truth.

Christ taught Higher Truth, even when it contradicted the Current Church Doctrine and Law of Moses. For example,

43 And behold it is written also, that thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy;
44 But behold I say unto you, love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

He was willing to contradict what was written in scripture to teach higher truths and the higher law.

Back to examples of the tongue of angels:

Helaman 5:18
18 And it came to pass that Nephi and Lehi did preach unto the Lamanites with such great power and authority, for they had power and authority given unto them that they might speak, and they also had what they should speak given unto them—

Helaman 6:5
5 Yea, and many did preach with exceedingly great power and authority, unto the bringing down many of them into the depths of humility, to be the humble followers of God and the Lamb.

Luke 4:36
36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

Alma 17:3
3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

[Amonhi]

Other things to consider:

False prophets do not speak with the tongue of angels, yet they claim to be prophets and that we should obey them because of their position. (We see this to some degree in all religions, not just Mormon prophets/Apostles/General authorities and Prophet/Presidents, but Popes, Priests, Bishops of all faiths and denominations.)

They teach for commandments the doctrines of men. Thier own doctrines, those things which they think are true are taught as if they were true and give their doctrines by way of command or commandment.

They have a form of Godliness, the physical appearance of Godliness. They look like Godly systems, organizations or leaders.

But, they deny the power of God. They deny the power of God to persuade men through the Holy Ghost which tells them all things that are true. They deny it because they teach that even if the Holy Ghost, (which is the power of God), tells you it is wrong, you need to trust your leaders and do it anyway. They say, deny the Holy Ghost and the power of God to convince men and obey the organization, leaders, etc. who are more right than your personal revelation.

Think of a single church on the earth that does not expect you to obey its teachings and doctrines as if they were commandments from God. What church says, follow your personal convictions and rely on the Power of the Holy Ghost, voice of God, to persuade you of truth before you are obligated to obey it.

I know of only one physical church on the earth that does not deny the power of God in our lives. The LDS Church, and because of the weakness and lack of knowledge of its members who run it, it too often ranks with the churches of the world.

If men/women are relying on priesthood position to prove their point, solidify their doctrine as true or to determine who to follow/ what to do, then they are not relying on God.

True prophets either speak of themselves and invite you to determine if they speak truth before you follow them or they speak with the tongue of angels and know without asking that if you received the message with the power of personal revelation that you will follow your own revelation and live accordingly. They only expect obedience to God through the Holy Ghost, and not to man through position. They won't even ask it. When you don't obey false prophets,or when you disagree with them, they turn on you personally and attack you, not the doctrines, not persuasion, but personal attacks as they try to tear you to shreds. Beware of False prophets they look like sheep, they talk like sheep, they smell like sheep and are found with the sheep. But they are not sheep.

John 10:27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

They hear the voice of the spirit, whether it is through Christ or through Angels or through Prophets speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost.

If a prophet or Prophet/President speaks by the power of position, then he is not speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost, and you can feel it within yourself that you are not receiving personal revelation. But if he is speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost, it comes with an inherent authority of God which can not be duplicated or falsified by saying "Thus sayeth the Lord".

Anyone can speak for the Lord. But, they ONLY speak for the Lord when they are speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost which grants them authority to say whatever it tells them to say.

1 Nephi 10:22 - And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

It grants you whatever authority you need to do what it asks you to do. And when you speak, you will speak with the tongue of angels and they will know you are speaking for the Lord because they will feel the spirit backing you up.

Now, speaking by the spirit is good, but it you want the power of God unto the convincing of men, you have to know the word of God first. Not the word of Current Church Doctrine, but the word of truth. Then with the word of truth and the Holy Ghost you have the power of God unto the convincing of men.

You are now enabled to do likewise.
Amonhi

[laronius]

I think Amonhi makes the crucial distinction above concerning the difference between "false" prophets and "imperfect" prophets. He also touches on the need for the Holy Ghost in discerning between the two. Which leads me to a key scritpure:

2 Nephi 32:8

And now, my beloved brethren, I perceive that ye ponder still in your hearts; and it grieveth me that I must speak concerning this thing. For if ye would hearken unto the Spirit which teacheth a man to pray, ye would know that ye must pray; for the evil spirit teacheth not a man to pray, but teacheth him that he must not pray.

If this is a key distinction between the Spirit and an evil spirit, I think it is also a key distinction between those who are true prophets as opposed to false. The brethren have always taught us to pray and seek the Lord's guidance through the Spirit. I believe they will always continue to do so.

But if we look in the world around us we will see how effective Satan has been in teaching people that they must not pray, at least in terms of seeking revelation. Most good Christian people deny that ability.

[jo1952]

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

It is a very sad thing that it is the Brethren themselves whose activities and fruit then cause members to lose confidence in them.

They are men, like you or I. What is sad is that we expect so much of them and measure the against a standard that is unreasonable for men to be on. Then we find out that they haven't met the unreasonable standard we don't excuse them and move on, we say, the church isn't true, the Gospel isn't truth, there is no God, etc.

Your humble servant,
Amonhi

Amonhi, To save space, I used only the first paragraph of your post.

I agree that the Brethren are learning and progressing just like the rest of us. When I see their fallibility I see that they ARE just like the rest of us. Your presentation was wonderfully thought out.

In teaching us to look at the fruit, this is a process for us to learn from. If we see the things we have been taught to watch for, then we will know that we need to make personal corrections. Sand doesn't make a good foundation; nor does it make a good material to use to build upon the foundation. When we see the fruit of such things as losing scripture, because it has been removed and is no longer taught, then we can search for those scriptures and do our own studying of them. When we see the fruit of such things as monies being wildly mis-spent---and see that there is no accountability being made---we should try to do something about it; not be complacent and allow it to continue.

The problem is that if we DO study scriptures which have been removed and lost, we can't talk about them, or edify one another concerning their contents. If we do, we are in danger of being excommunicated. If we DO try to discuss recapturing accountability about monies, we are in danger of being excommunicated. It has become an incredibly difficult situation. This is what causes me to lose confidence in the leaders of the Church. The "apostasy" this results in...at least for me...is the discontinuation of blindly following the leaders. IOW, I am now apostate to following blindly. It is NOT resulting in an apostasy from my belief in Father or in Christ; I have not turned away from them...I have turned away from seeking God first through our leaders. Now, the Church will view this as apostasy from the Church and will actually pursue to make this official; i.e., through the process of excommunication. Yet that process has nothing to do with my spiritual relationship with God.

As you have shared your idea that apostasy is not being able to pierce the veil, this is a different level of understanding--which I believe is valid; though it is a more extreme definition than most would even consider. It is something worth pondering about which can have good fruit---an adjusting of definition which will align our perceptions from another viewing point.

The laity are not the ones making the claims of infallibly leading the Church; unfortunately, the laity too often believes the claims being made (to their own destruction). The laity are not the ones who have caused that scripture be removed and lost. The laity then dwindle in the unbelief of those scriptures (to their own destruction). It is up to the laity to choose what to do about it. Meanwhile, I certainly would not want the responsibility which our leaders have taken upon themselves (i.e., the becoming of leaders).

Scripture provides the process wherein a voice of warning can lay claim. Unless we have developed a strong personal relationship with God which is built upon a rock instead of sand, then we aren't going to be able to hear the voice of warning. We need to be able to see the fruit of our own labors, as well as the fruit of those we allow to lead us. If we become aware that something has become lost, we can then know to go searching for it. If we don't know that it has been lost, then we remain blind to it; etc. What a mess. I suppose that we need to be prepared for the consequences for discovering both good and bad fruit. Who will we remain faithful to? It is through the methodology of looking at the fruit of our own labors and of those who lead us, that we are assisted to ultimately obtain our goal. We need to be prepared for the interim result that even the Church will hate us.

Depending upon where we are in our journey, we receive the message we are ready for from the Holy Ghost. I hope that readers will see that my comments are not at odds with yours.

[Simon]

I loved the occasion were Paul was to stand before the king, and where the Lord told him not to worry what to say, but that at the right time he woud be given the proper words. I believe that such spontanious revelations, that will speak directly to the hearts of the listeners, is one of the great "signs" of a true prophet. I also believe that prophets of God will always be usual people with normal flaws, but when they teach, they will utter great wisdom and truth. Often times we truely expect the wrong things from our churchleaders, we expect them to be perfect beings, well dressed and well educated. They must have the answers to all questions. But I feel that the scriptures show us a different kind of prophets, usually they are outsiders, have normal flaws and often times they come from a poor and simple backround. God's gospel is a "living thing", there is life in it. So there also has to be "life, light and truth" within the prophets of God.

[Amonhi]

I think Amonhi makes the crucial distinction above concerning the difference between "false" prophets and "imperfect" prophets. He also touches on the need for the Holy Ghost in discerning between the two.

Good call! This bugged me all morning and I was just logging in to address this. When I said "false Prophets" above, I meant something else. A true prophet sometimes acts like an untrue prophet. And if you catch a true prophet acting like an untrue prophet, your tendency is to judge their ministry using a few small moments.

The whole term "False Prophet" seems to me to be stupid because it indicates that they are always a false prophet when they may have taught false doctrine once or prophesied incorrectly once or acted contrary to truth a few times, etc. It doesn't mean that they screwed up once and now they are on the naughty list for life. Like Joseph F. Smith, I pointed out a few things that he did and taught which were not so good for a "True Prophet" to do. Does that mean that he was a false prophet? No. You can't make a person a true or a false prophet out of a single quote.

If we did that, I would be a false prophet many times over for the number of mistakes I have made. I Respect Jeremy a great deal and look up to him as an example of how I could better myself and I read a post recently where he acted contrary to his own expectations and publicly chastened himself and committed himself to improvement. A very honorable thing to do. What if said something or did something that was out of line and he didn't catch himself for months or years later? Would one mistake wipe out all the good this man has done? All the love he has given? Not a chance.

Look at Jonah, poor guy. One of the worst true prophets recorded in the scriptures. He just messed up time and again. But, he was a true prophet. Even when he was sitting under the tree with his popcorn bowl and thermal radiation suit waiting for the city to get toasted. Even though he was hoping it would get toasted and bummed that it didn't. (Really, would a "true prophet" hope for people to be destroyed or repent? Would he hang out for days because he wanted to see the blood and horror and hear the screams of the people while God did His dirty work?) Yeah, he didn't seem to be shedding many tears for the awful state of the people. But through all he did, he was a true prophet. And we could judge him an hundred times over for his unrighteous attitudes and actions and conclude that he was a false prophet. But ultimately he was a true prophet who had a true message for a wicked people.

Another example is Joseph Smith in carthage jail and the others with him who ordered wine to "revive their spirits" and smoking tobacco. Along with the six shooter (gun) that was smuggled into the prison which Joseph used to injure 1 man and kill two more. Some anti's have judged Joseph as a false prophet not keeping with the word of wisdom, breaking the law and defending his and other's lives. "This isn't how a prophet acts!!" they exclaim.

Or Brigham Young for owning distilleries, a beer hall and tobacco farms. Or for all the doctrine he taught that the church has since denounced, He must have been a false prophet they say...

So, when I said, "False prophet" above, I meant a prophet speaking falsely at that moment. I like the term "imperfect prophet" because all prophets are imperfect, but what would be a good term for a true prophet who is speaking truth in this instance and another term or easy way of saying a true prophet that is speaking false in this instance?

I started writing this early this morning, and haven't had time to finish until now. I still haven't read the last two posts and am not sure when I will have time.

Peace,
Amonhi

[log]

Maybe y'all would be better off using the scriptural definition of "true prophet".

[Simon]

The simplest scriptual definition of a true prophet is, that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy.

Amonhi, an true prophet that sometimes acts like an untrue prophet and is humble enough to admit that are the ones I like most. I would not want a perfect prophet, the gap between the prophet and me would be too big ;) so it feels more natural, more "normal", and that way more intense

[log]

The simplest scriptual definition of a true prophet is, that the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy.

Alas. The scripture never calls those individuals prophets. They're called "saints" in the scripture.

In making this comment, I assumed you read the post I linked to, and that you were therefore speaking of the same subject I was.

[Simon]

It surely depends on wether we talk about THE prophet, who is in authority of leadership, and A prophet, who can be just anyone. Any saint, member or nonmember who receives the testimony of Christ will also receive the spirit of prophecy, and will therefore be a prophet in the boundaries set to him by the Lord.

Joshua was offended because two man, who were not specificially chosen to be leaders ( 70;s) started to prophecy in the camp. Thy did not take part in the "ordinance", they were afar off. But Moses still said he should not be offended because of that, but he wished all were Prophets just like that ( Numbers 11 )

Or as we read another statements that were made about Paul ..

1 Sam. 10:12
....Is Saul ( am I ) also among the Prophets?


1 Sam 10:11
...... behold, he prophesied among the prophets

I believe this statement describes best how the Lord would want his church to be, that we all do "prophesie amongs prophets". That we all become prophets among prophets. This to me is part of being one, as Christ and the Father are one. It is a great doctrine and does not take away the authority of THE prophet.

[KCCraft]

First off, I'd like to thank you, Amonhi, for your involvement in this thread and this forum. There has been much that you have stated that resonates with me and gives me much to ponder.

Speaking to the forum generally, I do not know if Amonhi is one of the 144k as he has claimed. I don't know if he is a true prophet (or at least, an imperfect one ;) ) or a false prophet who has been deceived by evil spirits. There have been those who have suggested as much, or at least compared him to those who are deceived. I do believe that men can be deceived as was Korihor, so why listen to those who claim to have received truth from angels and so forth, lest they were deceived and we follow? Why seek our own messengers lest we are deceived as well? There is safety in remaining firmly within the bounds of the church, so why risk it?

A thought has occurred to me regarding the pre-existence. Before the Plan of Salvation was presented, we were safely entrenched in the presence of God. Damned in our progression, but safe. Then the War in Heaven came, and we had two options. Follow the Father's plan and come to Earth to be exposed to opposition where we would risk everything at a chance to progress. Even after our Savior offered himself as an atonement, perhaps we still saw a crucial risk. What if He couldn't go through with it? What if He failed? We would be without hope. It is my opinion that Faith in Christ was the deciding factor in even our first estate. In order to place our salvation in His hands, we had to have Faith that he was capable of what He said He would do. You might say that was a gamble, where we left the safety of damnation and placed our trust in Him. Perhaps those who chose the adversary's side did so because it appeared safe. Saved no matter what, even if our progression was limited, or even halted completely.

That pattern seems to be repeating itself here. There is safety in following the brethren unquestioningly. If we look to them, and only them, we'll never be deceived by an evil spirit appearing as an angel of light. But as the Lectures on Faith have convinced me, that type of life will never lead to the faith required for exaltation. If we never seek the face of the Lord, if we never attempt to pierce the veil in mortaility, we'll be safe from the opposition which will surely come as a result. Safely damned to be neither deceived nor exalted.

This is not to say that the Church and the Brethren are not important. I believe they are. I would not be where I am in my spiritual journey without them. They have placed me on the path and pointed me to the Savior. For that I thank the Lord, but I will not neglect to walk toward Him just because it means there is risk along the way.

For quite some time I have pondered the concept of seeking the literal face of the Lord. Is the temple ceremony and end, or a means to an end? Is passing through the veil in the temple sufficient, or is the entire experience an allegory to teach us to pierce the veil in mortality? For months I prayed with fear. Tentatively asking for confirmation about this question but afraid of opening myself up to deception. One night I finally let go of my fear. I declared to the Lord my intention to seek the face of the Savior no matter the cost. I asked for access to ministering angels, to visions, to whatever revelations He sees fit to teach me greater Light and Knowledge. And I placed in Christ my faith, that He would teach me to discern between false messengers and true, lest I be deceived. The love I felt as I uttered that first fearless prayer was powerful and spoke to my spirit that I was on the path intended for me.

That is my testimony that I wish to share with the forum. It is difficult to leave the safety of the gate and take those first fearful steps to seek a literal relationship with the Savior, but if we cast off that fear and place our faith in Him, those steps will be steps of confidence and love, not of fear.

To bring this full circle, I do not know if Amonhi has truly pierced the veil, or if he has been deceived. Frankly, it does not matter. I spent a lot of time :-ss over those who claim such experiences. Until I realized that what I was really worrying about was that if so-and-so could have been deceived, so too could I if I seek such experiences. Now I feel that such fear was damning me from progressing to the next step of the Gospel of Christ.

Perfect love casteth out fear. I am so very imperfect and have a lot of progressing to do, but accepting this principle and taking my first tiny step to receiving the testimony of Christ has been a wonderful and inspiring process.

I offer a heartfelt thank-you to all who have helped steer me toward this point in my life! :ymhug:

[FoxMammaWisdom]

First off, I'd like to thank you, Amonhi, for your involvement in this thread and this forum. There has been much that you have stated that resonates with me and gives me much to ponder.

Speaking to the forum generally, I do not know if Amonhi is one of the 144k as he has claimed. I don't know if he is a true prophet (or at least, an imperfect one ;) ) or a false prophet who has been deceived by evil spirits. There have been those who have suggested as much, or at least compared him to those who are deceived. I do believe that men can be deceived as was Korihor, so why listen to those who claim to have received truth from angels and so forth, lest they were deceived and we follow? Why seek our own messengers lest we are deceived as well? There is safety in remaining firmly within the bounds of the church, so why risk it?

A thought has occurred to me regarding the pre-existence. Before the Plan of Salvation was presented, we were safely entrenched in the presence of God. Damned in our progression, but safe. Then the War in Heaven came, and we had two options. Follow the Father's plan and come to Earth to be exposed to opposition where we would risk everything at a chance to progress. Even after our Savior offered himself as an atonement, perhaps we still saw a crucial risk. What if He couldn't go through with it? What if He failed? We would be without hope. It is my opinion that Faith in Christ was the deciding factor in even our first estate. In order to place our salvation in His hands, we had to have Faith that he was capable of what He said He would do. You might say that was a gamble, where we left the safety of damnation and placed our trust in Him. Perhaps those who chose the adversary's side did so because it appeared safe. Saved no matter what, even if our progression was limited, or even halted completely.

That pattern seems to be repeating itself here. There is safety in following the brethren unquestioningly. If we look to them, and only them, we'll never be deceived by an evil spirit appearing as an angel of light. But as the Lectures on Faith have convinced me, that type of life will never lead to the faith required for exaltation. If we never seek the face of the Lord, if we never attempt to pierce the veil in mortaility, we'll be safe from the opposition which will surely come as a result. Safely damned to be neither deceived nor exalted.

This is not to say that the Church and the Brethren are not important. I believe they are. I would not be where I am in my spiritual journey without them. They have placed me on the path and pointed me to the Savior. For that I thank the Lord, but I will not neglect to walk toward Him just because it means there is risk along the way.

For quite some time I have pondered the concept of seeking the literal face of the Lord. Is the temple ceremony and end, or a means to an end? Is passing through the veil in the temple sufficient, or is the entire experience an allegory to teach us to pierce the veil in mortality? For months I prayed with fear. Tentatively asking for confirmation about this question but afraid of opening myself up to deception. One night I finally let go of my fear. I declared to the Lord my intention to seek the face of the Savior no matter the cost. I asked for access to ministering angels, to visions, to whatever revelations He sees fit to teach me greater Light and Knowledge. And I placed in Christ my faith, that He would teach me to discern between false messengers and true, lest I be deceived. The love I felt as I uttered that first fearless prayer was powerful and spoke to my spirit that I was on the path intended for me.

That is my testimony that I wish to share with the forum. It is difficult to leave the safety of the gate and take those first fearful steps to seek a literal relationship with the Savior, but if we cast off that fear and place our faith in Him, those steps will be steps of confidence and love, not of fear.

To bring this full circle, I do not know if Amonhi has truly pierced the veil, or if he has been deceived. Frankly, it does not matter. I spent a lot of time :-ss over those who claim such experiences. Until I realized that what I was really worrying about was that if so-and-so could have been deceived, so too could I if I seek such experiences. Now I feel that such fear was damning me from progressing to the next step of the Gospel of Christ.

Perfect love casteth out fear. I am so very imperfect and have a lot of progressing to do, but accepting this principle and taking my first tiny step to receiving the testimony of Christ has been a wonderful and inspiring process.

I offer a heartfelt thank-you to all who have helped steer me toward this point in my life! :ymhug:

I LOVE THIS!

[kathedralegs]

My husband and I have had a lot of conversation recently regarding "fear". I have been taught that anything motivated by fear is damning. It shuts me down. It prevents me from moving forward. As I have expanded in understanding, I have seen my tendency to be fearful in so much of my life correspondingly disappear. I used to measure where I was spiritually by how much gratitude I felt in my life. That is still an important factor for me but the most amazing discovery is that when I become fearful I am looking elsewhere for my solace and comfort. The fear reminds me that I have turned away and need to turn towards my Lord again.