Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers

[log]

Wow. What trap? Seriously. No need to be offended that I pointed out this dude/dudette's contradiction of words and called him/her out on it. I'm just asking for some clarification in case we are all misunderstanding.

What, you want me to explain that the man who rises up to "correct" the Church, saying it is out of the way while he, himself, is righteous is on the high road to apostasy?

Asking any man how the Church is out of the way is an obvious trap and a snare. One which he politely avoided.

There is no contradiction in "I don't know what the Church should teach because it isn't my right to determine what the Church should teach."

Trying to make a contradiction appear is exactly the behavior Isaiah condemned.

[Simon]

Knock yourself out Simon. I've been down this road before with those who claim to have a higher spiritual calling. I know the results that come from following false spirits. They aint pretty. Anybody who claims to have a direct connection with the heavens and then displays an attitude of faultfinding and accusatory defaming and criticizing of church leadership is not following the spirit of Christ-like charity in my book. I saw this happen with many who organized the TLC church out of Sanpete County years ago. They also claimed great spiritual manifestations and higher spiritual callings just as Amonhi has done here and I KNOW they were following false spirits. Amonhi is following their same patterns. Buyer beware is all I can say. Do with it as you please. I want no part of it.

I came across so many people claiming to have had visions and great revelations, and I know that most of them truely are deceived and false. I guess I just wanted to point out that the Lord has often called outsiders to call his chosen people unto repentance, and if we, as a church are under condemnation, this might happen again. We just should not exclude that this may happen to us again. That the church is under condemnation is something that even churchleaders have talked about themselves, and that is also found in the scriptures. This is how it started with the Jews, this is how it often happend with the Nephites, and IF that happens, then there might be people like Samuel the Lamanite, Lehi or even Christ. We need to be aware how we would receive Christ if he came among us and if we would recognize him.

My point really is to be wise with such things, to not get easily deceived by false prophets, and to not easily reject true prophets.

[InfoWarrior82]

Wow. What trap? Seriously. No need to be offended that I pointed out this dude/dudette's contradiction of words and called him/her out on it. I'm just asking for some clarification in case we are all misunderstanding.

What, you want me to explain that the man who rises up to "correct" the Church, saying it is out of the way while he, himself, is righteous is on the high road to apostasy?

Asking any man how the Church is out of the way is an obvious trap and a snare. One which he politely avoided.

There is no contradiction in "I don't know what the Church should teach because it isn't my right to determine what the Church should teach."

Trying to make a contradiction appear is exactly the behavior Isaiah condemned.

The Lord deals with His prophets. Not you. Not me. Can you give me an example when a prophet fell away from his calling? Ah, Jonah you say? What happened to Jonah?

All you and I can do is choose to sustain them and follow their guidance... or not. Who are you or I to tell the Lord what to do?


Besides, I made no contradiction. It was already there for anyone to see in all its glory. I dunno, it just doesn't sound like what one of the 144,000 would say.

[keep the faith]

Knock yourself out Simon. I've been down this road before with those who claim to have a higher spiritual calling. I know the results that come from following false spirits. They aint pretty. Anybody who claims to have a direct connection with the heavens and then displays an attitude of faultfinding and accusatory defaming and criticizing of church leadership is not following the spirit of Christ-like charity in my book. I saw this happen with many who organized the TLC church out of Sanpete County years ago. They also claimed great spiritual manifestations and higher spiritual callings just as Amonhi has done here and I KNOW they were following false spirits. Amonhi is following their same patterns. Buyer beware is all I can say. Do with it as you please. I want no part of it.

I came across so many people claiming to have had visions and great revelations, and I know that most of them truely are deceived and false. I guess I just wanted to point out that the Lord has often called outsiders to call his chosen people unto repentance, and if we, as a church are under condemnation, this might happen again. We just should not exclude that this may happen to us again. That the church is under condemnation is something that even churchleaders have talked about themselves, and that is also found in the scriptures. This is how it started with the Jews, this is how it often happend with the Nephites, and IF that happens, then there might be people like Samuel the Lamanite, Lehi or even Christ. We need to be aware how we would receive Christ if he came among us and if we would recognize him.

My point really is to be wise with such things, to not get easily deceived by false prophets, and to not easily reject true prophets.

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

I am discerning that spirit referred to here by Heber C. Kimball with Amonhi and many other posters on this site who participate in ill speaking of the Lords chosen Prophets in His church. When people start talking smack about the 15 men sustained as Prophets/Seers/Revelators in TCOJCOLDS it is evident that they are following this same pattern. I don't know how much clearer it can be. The spirit of Charity disappears when one allows this adversarial spirit of becoming an accuser of the Brethren to take hold of them. Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

[log]

Wow. What trap? Seriously. No need to be offended that I pointed out this dude/dudette's contradiction of words and called him/her out on it. I'm just asking for some clarification in case we are all misunderstanding.

What, you want me to explain that the man who rises up to "correct" the Church, saying it is out of the way while he, himself, is righteous is on the high road to apostasy?

Asking any man how the Church is out of the way is an obvious trap and a snare. One which he politely avoided.

There is no contradiction in "I don't know what the Church should teach because it isn't my right to determine what the Church should teach."

Trying to make a contradiction appear is exactly the behavior Isaiah condemned.

The Lord deals with His prophets. Not you. Not me.

Speak for yourself.

Can you give me an example when a prophet fell away from his calling?

I can do better. Omni (1 Nephi 19:4, Omni 1:2). Judas (John 13:27). Others who are unnamed (Mosiah 15:13, 1 Kings 13:20-22).

All you and I can do is choose to sustain them and follow their guidance... or not. Who are you or I to tell the Lord what to do?

Who are you to make a man an offender for a word, laying verbal traps and snares? The Lord has forbidden it by his prophets, speaking of "sustain[ing] them and follow[ing] their guidance." They who do such things shall be consumed at the coming of the Lord.

3 Nephi 14
1 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words he turned again to the multitude, and did open his mouth unto them again, saying: Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother: Let me pull the mote out of thine eye—and behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

[log]

Wow. What trap? Seriously. No need to be offended that I pointed out this dude/dudette's contradiction of words and called him/her out on it. I'm just asking for some clarification in case we are all misunderstanding.

/:)

I am curious. What are some of these truths that the church does not endorse, but should?

I don't know, it isn't my right to say what the church should endorse. I am not over the church.

Didn't you just say that you didn't know what those truths were that the church leadership wasn't teaching or getting wrong? Now you are claiming the opposite. That they are indeed teaching falsehoods and withholding truth. Which one is it?

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

I am discerning that spirit referred to here by Heber C. Kimball with Amonhi and many other posters on this site who participate in ill speaking of the Lords chosen Prophets in His church. When people start talking smack about the 15 men sustained as Prophets/Seers/Revelators in TCOJCOLDS it is evident that they are following this same pattern. I don't know how much clearer it can be. The spirit of Charity disappears when one allows this adversarial spirit of becoming an accuser of the Brethren to take hold of them. Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

What trap, indeed.

[InfoWarrior82]

Wow. What trap? Seriously. No need to be offended that I pointed out this dude/dudette's contradiction of words and called him/her out on it. I'm just asking for some clarification in case we are all misunderstanding.

/:)

I am curious. What are some of these truths that the church does not endorse, but should?

I don't know, it isn't my right to say what the church should endorse. I am not over the church.

Didn't you just say that you didn't know what those truths were that the church leadership wasn't teaching or getting wrong? Now you are claiming the opposite. That they are indeed teaching falsehoods and withholding truth. Which one is it?

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

I am discerning that spirit referred to here by Heber C. Kimball with Amonhi and many other posters on this site who participate in ill speaking of the Lords chosen Prophets in His church. When people start talking smack about the 15 men sustained as Prophets/Seers/Revelators in TCOJCOLDS it is evident that they are following this same pattern. I don't know how much clearer it can be. The spirit of Charity disappears when one allows this adversarial spirit of becoming an accuser of the Brethren to take hold of them. Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

What trap, indeed.

Get it right:

I am curious. What are some of these truths that the church does not endorse, but should?

I don't know, it isn't my right to say what the church should endorse. I am not over the church.

Prophets/President DO NOT teach false "Current Church Doctrine" because they decide what the current church doctrine is, but they can and do teach contrary to truth.

Didn't you just say that you didn't know what those truths were that the church leadership wasn't teaching or getting wrong? Now you are claiming the opposite. That they are indeed teaching falsehoods and withholding truth. Which one is it?

Now, tell me how this does not contradict? Take your blinders off.


And that last quote you attributed to me wasn't mine. (The one with Heber C Kimball).

[log]

And that last quote you attributed to me wasn't mine. (The one with Heber C Kimball).

My bad. I will correct it.

[log]

Now, tell me how this does not contradict? Take your blinders off.

I don't have the patience to teach remedial reading today. If you cannot see that there is no contradiction in claiming that there exist things which are true which the Church does not teach, things which are false which the Church does teach, and not making a claim on what the Church should endorse since such endorsements are beyond one's stewardship, then you are another who should be on my ignore list, like Epistemology.

[InfoWarrior82]

Now, tell me how this does not contradict? Take your blinders off.

I don't have the patience to teach remedial reading today. If you cannot see that there is no contradiction in pointing out that there exist things which are true which the Church does not teach, and that one makes no claim on what the Church should endorse since such endorsements are beyond one's stewardship, then you are another who should be on my ignore list, like Epistemology.

Truth is truth. It seems like he's trying to bash the leaders of the church without backing it up with anything. "Yes there is truth being withheld! But I don't know what it is." Again... doesn't sound like something one of the 144,000 High Priests chosen and visited by Jesus Christ Himself would say.

Isn't it quite possible that these truths weren't meant for public consumption? Didn't J.S. say that if he told everything he knew, that even the most devout followers of the faith would kill him?

What's Amonhi's point anyway?

[log]

What's Amonhi's point anyway?

Possibly that there are other truths which we don't have that we must seek each one for ourselves, and not depend upon men?

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

[InfoWarrior82]

What's Amonhi's point anyway?

Possibly that there are other truths which we don't have that we must seek each one for ourselves, and not depend upon men?

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.

11 And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.

I agree with this. But it will not contradict revealed doctrine. It will only expand upon existing doctrine so that which was confusing is made clear.

Another quote from Amonhi:

Prophets/President sometimes use the power of fear, (not of God - 2 Timothy 1:7), to bind/close our minds to "unauthorized" ideas (cult tactics BTW).

Amonhi, can you further clear up this contradiction... or at least put some substance on the table? Please, tell us what are some "unauthorized" ideas that we are told to "bind/close our minds to"?

[jo1952]

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

It is a very sad thing that it is the Brethren themselves whose activities and fruit then cause members to lose confidence in them. It does cause some people to apostatize; but not from the Church....they actually lose faith in and apostatize from God. Fortunately, others who have faith sufficient to ride out the storm upon awakening, do NOT lose their faith in God. They do NOT apostatize from God; even though they may or may not leave the Church.

How can we ignore that scripture has been altered and/or eliminated (some which can't even be found unless you happen across a way to find it other than through the Church herself). How can we ignore that talks are manipulated after being presented one way "live" in GC (which is supposed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit....and which, in fact, the hearers claim to have been confirmed to them personally by the Holy Spirit); but then are revised in order that the "correct" message is written. How can we ignore that we then have two different versions of the "true" message....both being confirmed to first the listener; and later to the reader...but there have been two different messages given... There is so much; the use of Church funds, correlation of Truth, the current prophet trumps a past prophet, etc, etc,....and it has all been discussed and argued over again and again. The result being that these are the issues which cause members to lose confidence. If those members do not have a great deal of faith, then they become so disenchanted that they can lose faith in God and turn from Him. Meanwhile other members have enough faith to hang on to their belief and experiencing of God; regardless of whether or not they stay in the Church.

[natasha]

I have read over and over again so much of what you have posted, jo1952...and rather than argue with you I just want you to know that my heart goes out to you.

[Simon]

Knock yourself out Simon. I've been down this road before with those who claim to have a higher spiritual calling. I know the results that come from following false spirits. They aint pretty. Anybody who claims to have a direct connection with the heavens and then displays an attitude of faultfinding and accusatory defaming and criticizing of church leadership is not following the spirit of Christ-like charity in my book. I saw this happen with many who organized the TLC church out of Sanpete County years ago. They also claimed great spiritual manifestations and higher spiritual callings just as Amonhi has done here and I KNOW they were following false spirits. Amonhi is following their same patterns. Buyer beware is all I can say. Do with it as you please. I want no part of it.

I came across so many people claiming to have had visions and great revelations, and I know that most of them truely are deceived and false. I guess I just wanted to point out that the Lord has often called outsiders to call his chosen people unto repentance, and if we, as a church are under condemnation, this might happen again. We just should not exclude that this may happen to us again. That the church is under condemnation is something that even churchleaders have talked about themselves, and that is also found in the scriptures. This is how it started with the Jews, this is how it often happend with the Nephites, and IF that happens, then there might be people like Samuel the Lamanite, Lehi or even Christ. We need to be aware how we would receive Christ if he came among us and if we would recognize him.

My point really is to be wise with such things, to not get easily deceived by false prophets, and to not easily reject true prophets.

President Heber C. Kimball, of the first Presidency said this: “I will give you a key which Brother Joseph Smith used to give in Nauvoo. He said that the very step of apostasy commenced with losing confidence in the leaders of this church and kingdom, and that whenever you discerned that spirit you might know that it would lead the possessor of it on the road to apostasy.”

I am discerning that spirit referred to here by Heber C. Kimball with Amonhi and many other posters on this site who participate in ill speaking of the Lords chosen Prophets in His church. When people start talking smack about the 15 men sustained as Prophets/Seers/Revelators in TCOJCOLDS it is evident that they are following this same pattern. I don't know how much clearer it can be. The spirit of Charity disappears when one allows this adversarial spirit of becoming an accuser of the Brethren to take hold of them. Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

I am deeply gratefull for the churchleaders. I once had the chance to listen to Elder Scotts testimony of Christ, and I know that he knows. His testimony stays deeply in my heart and mind even years later.. I like the words of Joseph..

If you do not accuse each other, God will not accuse you. If you have no accuser you will enter heaven, and if you will follow the revelations and instructions which God gives you through me, I will take you into heaven as my back load. If you will not accuse me, I will not accuse you. If you will throw a cloak of charity over my sins, I will over yours—for charity covereth a multitude of sins. – Joseph Smith

Insteadt of focusing o the faults of the bretheren, I like to focus on the dutys and rights WE have ourselves.. And these rights and dutys are well described by Joseph:

Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth. Consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft…The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.

- Joseph Smith

“for God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but what He will make known unto the Twelve, and even the least Saint may know all things as fast as he is able to bear them, for the day must come when no man need say to his neighbor, ‘Know ye the Lord; for all shall know Him who, remain from the least to the greatest.’ ” TPJS 149.

I like to focuse that we should follow any truth that comes from anywhere.. For some it may be hard to accept truth when it comes from outside the church, for others it may be hard when it comes from within the church. We need to be humble at all times.

I also think we need to differ between the bretheren as individuals and the church as an organization. As church, we are under condemnation, this has not been taken away. Before any of us finds faults with the bretheren, we have to solve that condemnation on an individual level first.

The possibility that God calls prophets from the outside can always exist, especially if we don't try to remove that condemnation. But as we learn in the scripture, those that are true servents of God will recognize his voice, no matter where it will come from. But we need to be familiar with Christ. So, that is our highes priority.

[Amonhi]

People on this forum will have to discern for themselves whether or not to accept the declarations of those made here by Amonhi.

Once again, Keep the Faith, you have neglected to address even one of the points directly. And now you are saying that people should choose to accept what I am saying as if I was asking anyone to had faith in an unprovable thing. There are some thing sthat are not provable and some things which are. You can choose to have faith in unprovable things or not based on your beliefs. But you cannot reject provable things without being blind. You have to actually close your eyes, plug your ears and sing, "lalalalalala, I can't hear you...I don't see it, it doesn't exist..."
Not something a supporter of truth is willing to do. Certainly not something someone built on the rock feels the need to do.

You are treating my points as if I just made statements without backing them up with facts, examples, etc. You haven't even attempted to show me or anyone else where I am wrong. You act as if I asked someone to have faith in me or in what I am saying. My points are based on examples, not faith. Very real concrete instances, not theory, or possibility. You think that by pretending that they are false we change the fact that the proof is are right there in front of you. Do you seek truth or do you keep the faith even when the faith is shown to be wrong?

If you won't challenge my conclusions, then, I will acknowledge that perhaps I was wrong on some of the points and see if I can find the error for myself... Let me see if I can find a hole in my own thinking...

The first point is:

• Prophets/Presidents DO in fact contradict each other on Exalting Principles

That statement is a fact. It should be easy to prove. Even one instance where Prophets/Presidents contradict each other would make this statement a fact. I have seen this happen many times, not just the once that I pointed out above where President Joseph F. Smith and President John Taylor contradicted each other. This is a pure fact. Because I showed you one instance make the statement true. You just can't get around it. I showed that both Joseph F. Smith and John Taylor contradicted each other on an exalting principle. BUT, Just to firm up this point and solidify it as a fact, here are two more contradicting quotes by Presidents of the Church. The first quote is given in General Conference by President Romney who is quoting President Grant. The second quote is by President/Prophet Joseph Smith.
"Always keep your eye on the President of the church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, even if it is wrong, and you do it, the lord will bless you for it but you don't need to worry. The lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray." - LDS President Marion G. Romney (of the first presidency), quoting LDS President (and prophet) Heber J. Grant "Conference Report" Oct. 1960 p. 78

It replaced this contradicting doctrine taught by Joseph Smith:

"We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them -- even if they knew it was wrong. But such obedience as this is worse than folly to us. It is slavery in the extreme. The man who would thus willingly degrade himself should not claim a rank among intelligent beings until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise this idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their presidents, they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves." -- Joseph Smith, Jr. in the Millennial Star, volume 14, number 38, pages 593-595."

And as Joseph points out, a man willing to degrade himself in that way should not be ranked among intelligent beings, and the glory of God IS intelligence, then this becomes an exalting principle as we cannot be Gods if we are not ranked among the intelligent, nor if we are slaves in the extreme.

Here is a third one where the prophets/Presidents are contradicting each other regarding their role and ability as the Prophet/President.

“When he concluded, Brother Joseph turned to Brother Brigham Young and said, ‘Brother Brigham, I want you to take the stand and tell us your views with regard to the living oracles and the written word of God.’ Brother Brigham took the stand, and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: ‘There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,’ said he, ‘when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me; those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet or a man bearing the Holy Priesthood in our day and generation. I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books.’ That was the course he pursued. When he was through, Brother Joseph said to the congregation: ‘Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth.’” [In Conference Report, October 1897, pp. 22–23]

President Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them…. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man´s doctrine" (DS 3:203).

So now you have three actual examples of prophets/presidents contradicting each other.

That being said, the first point stands and is now backed up three times. You can chose to see it or not, but don't pretend this is a faith issue when you just have to open your eyes and see, and know.

My second point -

• Prophets/President DO NOT teach false "Current Church Doctrine" because they decide what the current church doctrine is, but they can and do teach contrary to truth.

I think this is backed up by both the first contradiction I pointed out in my first post on this thread and the second example where President grant was teaching contrary to truth in General Conference.

Ya know, even Bruce R. McConkie of the Q12 ran into this problem and had to figure out how to solve it. Not only did he say that Prophets/Presidents of the Church teach false doctrines, but that they even teach damning heresies.

This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us. - Bruce R. McConkie (Letter to Professor Eugene England

So, with all his study, Bruce R. McConkie determined that Brigham Young taught daming heresies and led the people astray. The doctrines in question here included the Adam God theory with was taught as church doctrine and a requirement for salvation. So, BY said you believe this or be damned and MCConkie says that if you believe these heresies you will be damned. In the same letter, McConkie told Eugene what President Joseph Fielding Smith thought of BY's required doctrine...

I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved.

Now I have given ample evidence to support both my first two points and a number of others as well. Before continuing on to prove or disprove my points, I wanted to address your comments directed at me. You, Keep the Faith, quoted

From the days of Hiram Page (Doc. and Cov, Sec. D&C 28), at different periods there have been manifestations from delusive spirits to members of the Church. Sometimes these have come to men and women who because of transgression became easy prey to the Arch-Deceiver. At other times people who pride themselves on their strict observance of the rules and ordinances and ceremonies of the Church are led astray by false spirits, who exercise an influence so imitative of that which proceeds from a Divine source that even these persons, who think they are “the very elect,” find it difficult to discern the essential difference [Matthew 24:24]. Satan himself has transformed himself to be apparently “an angel of light” [2 Corinthians 11:14; 2 Nephi 9:9].

You are doing it again... Ignoring the evidence, examples, reasoning, etc and not even address the points themselves. You are looking for some reason to discount what I said without actually addressing what I said. BTW, I am not repeating anything that I learned form any source except my own study. Do to say that some angel or other being told me these lies just doesn't hold water. No angel can create the historical evidence that I have placed before you. Provable facts are cool that way, they don't take faith. They either are or are not verifiable. These ones are verifiable.

When visions, dreams, tongues, prophecy, impressions or any extraordinary gift or inspiration conveys something out of harmony with the accepted revelations of the Church or contrary to the decisions of its constituted authorities, Latter-day Saints may know that it is not of God, no matter how plausible it may appear. Also they should understand that directions for the guidance of the Church will come, by revelation, through the head. All faithful members are entitled to the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for themselves, their families, and for those over whom they are appointed and ordained to preside. But anything at discord with that which comes from God through the head of the Church is not to be received as authoritative or reliable.6

[/quote]
Notice in the list provided, it does not include facts, history, examples, and concrete information. Truth is reason. Again, I am not asking anyone to blindly believe anything, I am presenting information, followed with my reasoning and conclusions. I am not presenting personal revelation, and asking anyone to believe it on faith. I am presenting facts and drawing conclusions based on facts. I welcome other views or information that might change my views. You appear unable to provide anything substantial, (anything at all actually), related to the topic at hand. But because you disagree with me, you are trying really hard to dis-validate me by concluding that I must be deceived or I am Delusional. But you still have not even made an attempt at correcting the information presented. Use the principles of the priesthood and persuade me.

If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. - Joseph Smith, TotPJS, Section Six 1843-44, p.313

Oh, and here is another quote by Joseph Smith I stumbled upon while getting the reference to the quote above. It agrees with President John Taylor in contradicting the OP quote by Joseph F. Smith...

One of the grand fundamental principles of "Mormonism" is to receive truth, let it come from whence it may. - Joseph Smith, TotPJS, Section Six 1843-44, p.313

Peace and truth,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I am discerning that spirit referred to here by Heber C. Kimball with Amonhi and many other posters on this site who participate in ill speaking of the Lords chosen Prophets in His church. When people start talking smack about the 15 men sustained as Prophets/Seers/Revelators in TCOJCOLDS it is evident that they are following this same pattern. I don't know how much clearer it can be. The spirit of Charity disappears when one allows this adversarial spirit of becoming an accuser of the Brethren to take hold of them. Apostasy is just the natural progression once this happens unless they repent and turn from this insidious display of prideful behavior.

Is it speaking ill of someone to acknowledge they are fallible? Is is speaking ill of someone to see flaws in their doctrine/teaching and offer corrections?

I have not criticized any of the leaders, called them names or focused on them as individuals at all. I have focused on their message. In fact I have treated them exactly how I am asking you to treat me.

And why should we treat them or anyone with more respect than we treat the least of these our brethren. Shouldn't we treat everybody with the same respect based on the principles of righteousness? Or should we be a respecter of persons when God clearly is not?

Following the Golden rule,
Amonhi

[InfoWarrior82]

Is it speaking ill of someone to acknowledge they are fallible? Is is speaking ill of someone to see flaws in their doctrine/teaching and offer corrections?

What, in terms of corrections, do you have to offer? Who are you to receive revelation for the world? What priesthood keys do you claim to be able to accomplish this?

How come you haven't cleared up your contradictions yet?

[laronius]

We know that in the BofM during the years leading up to the appearance of Christ, we have a type and shadow of our day. And I think it sheds a light on the topic of this thread.

During the first 480 or so years of the Nephite civilization, the Nephites were generally governed by a theocratic king who were often both kings and prophets. But in 121 BC we see the first formation of a Church seperate from the king when Alma Sr. formed a church of God.

Mosiah 21:30
"... Alma and the people that went with him, who had formed a church of God through the strength and power of God, and faith on the words which had been spoken by Abinadi."

When he and his people arrived in Zarahemla, Mosiah, the last prophet king, granted Alma authority to establish churches throughout the land.

Mosiah 25:19
"And it came to pass that king Mosiah granted unto Alma that he might establish churches throughout all the land of Zarahemla; and gave him power to ordain priests and teachers over every church."

Then with the death of King Mosiah and the formation of judges to govern the land, the Church became completely independent from the government and was headed by the prophet Alma. It is true that Alma the younger held both the position of chief judge and the prophet leading the Church but they are clearly seperate offices as we see when he gives up the office of chief judge to focus all his time preaching the gospel.

So from the time of Alma Sr there is a clear succession of prophets from Alma Sr to Alma the younger to Helaman to Nephi to another Nephi who is alive and is accepted of Christ at his appearance. Each of these successions is accompanied by the transfer of the plates and records which establish the doctrine of the gospel.

At one point we do see another prophet arrive on the scene in the form of Samuel the Lamanite. But his role was clearly to lead people to Christ and the Church which was then headed by Nephi who baptized the individuals converted by Samuel's teachings. His teachings were directed at those who had left the Church and needed to repent for doing so.

Also during these years spanning about 150 years we see the strengthening and weakening of the members of the Church. But consistent during all these years are the Prophets of God who lead the Church down the straight and narrow path. Individual members faltered and apostatized but not the prophets.

There is clearly a type in this for our day. If not, then there is a great deficiency in the BofM which is a book for our very day but only contains a record of faithful prophets during all those years leading up to the coming of Christ.

[Amonhi]

but they can and do teach contrary to truth.

Didn't you just say that you didn't know what those truths were that the church leadership wasn't teaching or getting wrong? Now you are claiming the opposite. That they are indeed teaching falsehoods and withholding truth. Which one is it?

No, I must have miscommunicated. Let me try again. The church and its leaders can and does at times teach contrary to truth. Yes, I have found a number of instances in which the church does this and we have talked about a few of them in this thread, for example when the prophets/presidents contradict in the examples I provided in this thread, one of the prophets/presidents in the contradiction is teaching contrary to truth. I have pointed out a number of examples in this thread in which Elder Ballard and Joseph F Smith were teaching contrary to truth. But, they were teaching Church approved doctrine known as Current Church Doctrine.

I am able to say, "Hey, God just revealed a new truth to me! How neat!" BUT, I can't say, "Hey, God just revealed a new Current Church Doctrine to me." Only the Prophet/President can say that. And when he says that, it becomes Current Church Doctrine for the whole church.

Yes, at times they teach falsehoods for doctrines. We all do. We call them the philosophies of men mingled with scripture. If I discover one of these falsehoods, I can say, "Wow, the spirit doesn't jive with that", or "wow that doesn't sound reasonable at all, here is why..." BUT I cannot say, "Wow, that isn't church doctrine! Church doctrine is..." (and then proceed to inject my version of truth as if I determined what current church doctrine is.) Even using quotes to tryt to prove what Currenyt church doctrine is can be risky because what was docterine before may not be now.

How does one of the 144,000 not have this kind of information readily available?

We have no more blessing than is available to anyone else in this regard.

EDIT: Ok, that wasn't true. We have no more blessing than is available to any CoFB member and which can be available to anyone who comes to the CoFB via C&E.

[Amonhi]

I dunno, it just doesn't sound like what one of the 144,000 would say.

hmmm, I make no claims to be a model example of my calling. I may even fulfill my calling with the grace and poise with which J. Golden Kimball served as an Apostle. None the less, an Apostle he was...

[North_Star]

I dunno, it just doesn't sound like what one of the 144,000 would say.

hmmm, I make no claims to be a model example of my calling. I may even fulfill my calling with the grace and poise with which J. Golden Kimball served as an Apostle. None the less, an Apostle he was...

I thought he served in the First Counsel of the Seventy.

[AnthonyR]

Amonhi, you are taking some pretty awesome Flack here. I am enjoying the thread so far. :ymapplause:

I have read and have prayed about some of the things you have written in this and in other Forums, and the spirit has whispered truth to me in much of it.

Please keep up the posting when the spirit directs, I for one enjoy reading what you have to say. Some of it goes against my traditions, and it gives me a chance to ask my Father in Heaven what is true, and seek for answers.

Your hopefully in this life CoFB brother =p~ <--- I am drooling, awaiting the day
Anthony

[Amonhi]

I dunno, it just doesn't sound like what one of the 144,000 would say.

hmmm, I make no claims to be a model example of my calling. I may even fulfill my calling with the grace and poise with which J. Golden Kimball served as an Apostle. None the less, an Apostle he was...

I thought he served in the First Counsel of the Seventy.

You are correct, thank you.

[Amonhi]

What trap, indeed.

Get it right:

I think you are both right er uh sincere, er looking at two sides of the elephant.

Log, you are correct, there was a trap there, intentional or not. If I did not chose my words carefully someone would have pulled the string and rightly so. I would have been caught.

InfoWarrio82, I think that you are also sincerely trying to understand what I was saying and you got confused by my poor communication. I hope that I was able to clarify for you in one of my more recent posts. Let me know it you still are unsure.

Peace,
Amonhi