18 to 24 Year Olds Forced Into Military Service

[SmallFarm]

Sorry if I misjudged your posts, FF. I just saw a thread with posts from people who planned to refuse the draft, and you posting about how people who won't fight to defend their country are cowards, and somehow correlated the two. I'll admit I probably jumped the gun since what I judged you to be saying ticked me off.

My personal viewpoint is that I won't join a military that invades other countries whatever the law may say, but when the time comes to defend against threats on our own soil (foreign or domestic), I'll do what I can, including joining any local defense militia.

I'll admit I was a bit puzzled since your posts up to now haven't been of that nature. I guess I shouldn't post in a bad mood :ymhug: .

Ditto.

[HeberC]

In the past, no one was technically forced into the military. The order to report for induction needed to be obeyed but the next step was voluntary. A statement along the lines of, 'Everyone who is here for induction, take a step forward'. Taking a step forward is what you do to 'volunteer' for induction. If you don't take that step, you will be insulted, threatened and maybe physically assaulted, but as long as you keep your feet together, you are not 'stepping forward'.

If our country were invaded, there would be no shortage of true volunteers.

I told my sons that is good to fight for your country, but it is not good to fight for the NWO.

I used to tell our kids, "The good thing about being an American is you never have to do anything anyone tells you to do [as long as you aren't hurting anyone]". Once, our older daughter said, "But, you and Mom tell me what to do". I told her, "You're not a full American until you're 18".

[freedomforall]

Sorry if I misjudged your posts, FF. I just saw a thread with posts from people who planned to refuse the draft, and you posting about how people who won't fight to defend their country are cowards, and somehow correlated the two. I'll admit I probably jumped the gun since what I judged you to be saying ticked me off.

My personal viewpoint is that I won't join a military that invades other countries whatever the law may say, but when the time comes to defend against threats on our own soil (foreign or domestic), I'll do what I can, including joining any local defense militia.

I'll admit I was a bit puzzled since your posts up to now haven't been of that nature. I guess I shouldn't post in a bad mood :ymhug: .

Sometimes I have great difficulty articulating the exact point I want to make.

Frankly, I don't care about foreign wars, I think we have no business getting involved with them. And I do think our government purposely stirs up trouble so they feel justified in getting many of our soldiers killed.

But aside from all that, military training can be beneficial. I mean, you mentioned joining a militia. Well, just what kind of training is required to be a successful militia unit? You got it...Guerrilla warfare...learning ways and means of taking out the enemy. And just who is going to teach that type of training? Someone that knows how to fight. And where do they get that kind of training?

I'm saying that when we have to fight the government on our local soil, somebody better know how to lead the pack, and help people survive. The people have to learn to take orders so the unit functions as one...not a wild bunch running every which way.

A battle can be one with few people, but a war can only be one by using a well trained, disciplined unit of hundreds of people, having the same end in mind....restoring freedom and liberty. This is how Moroni was so successful.

[freedomforall]

Sorry if I misjudged your posts, FF. I just saw a thread with posts from people who planned to refuse the draft, and you posting about how people who won't fight to defend their country are cowards, and somehow correlated the two. I'll admit I probably jumped the gun since what I judged you to be saying ticked me off.

My personal viewpoint is that I won't join a military that invades other countries whatever the law may say, but when the time comes to defend against threats on our own soil (foreign or domestic), I'll do what I can, including joining any local defense militia.

I'll admit I was a bit puzzled since your posts up to now haven't been of that nature. I guess I shouldn't post in a bad mood :ymhug: .

Ditto.

Ditto.

[freedomforall]

In the past, no one was technically forced into the military. The order to report for induction needed to be obeyed but the next step was voluntary. A statement along the lines of, 'Everyone who is here for induction, take a step forward'. Taking a step forward is what you do to 'volunteer' for induction. If you don't take that step, you will be insulted, threatened and maybe physically assaulted, but as long as you keep your feet together, you are not 'stepping forward'.

If our country were invaded, there would be no shortage of true volunteers.

I told my sons that is good to fight for your country, but it is not good to fight for the NWO.

I used to tell our kids, "The good thing about being an American is you never have to do anything anyone tells you to do [as long as you aren't hurting anyone]". Once, our older daughter said, "But, you and Mom tell me what to do". I told her, "You're not a full American until you're 18".

I didn't witness this myself, but sometimes a bunch of new recruits were lined up, whether Marine or Army enlisters, or draftees in my day...and a high ranking guy will walk in front and randomly pick men and say "you, you're in the Army as of right now, or, "you, you're in the Marine Corpse, get your gear and report to so and so." All that was required is a 1A health rating, a good working trigger finger and a case of bad luck to get into the Marines. Actually, I wanted to go into the USAF, but my buddies kept at me until I relented. I think even today the Air Force would be the way to go. It's the Army and Marines that do most of the ground pounding. My son was in the Navy and did two six month tours aboard a carrier.

Anyway, enough of this.

[Fairminded]

Sometimes I have great difficulty articulating the exact point I want to make.

Frankly, I don't care about foreign wars, I think we have no business getting involved with them. And I do think our government purposely stirs up trouble so they feel justified in getting many of our soldiers killed.

But aside from all that, military training can be beneficial. I mean, you mentioned joining a militia. Well, just what kind of training is required to be a successful militia unit? You got it...Guerrilla warfare...learning ways and means of taking out the enemy. And just who is going to teach that type of training? Someone that knows how to fight. And where do they get that kind of training?

I'm saying that when we have to fight the government on our local soil, somebody better know how to lead the pack, and help people survive. The people have to learn to take orders so the unit functions as one...not a wild bunch running every which way.

A battle can be one with few people, but a war can only be one by using a well trained, disciplined unit of hundreds of people, having the same end in mind....restoring freedom and liberty. This is how Moroni was so successful.

I fully agree that "a wild bunch running every which way" would be a disaster that got good people killed. Any serious militia can't just slap itself together and go off to fight the bad guy or they'll get into a one-sided slaughter.

Proper training and coordination will be essential. I'm just not sure I agree that the only place to find that is in the military. If you're dedicated and determined you can find people to train you, and in many cases train yourself, quite well. You can also find local enthusiasts and train together. It will be more expensive and potentially time consuming, and it may not match the quality of a formal military training, but you can avoid all the entanglements that come with enlistment.

In any case in the event of a disaster that required a local militia, you would want the militia to train together extensively as a unit before it ever saw action. They would have to learn coordination, tactics, and standard operating procedures together. As long as experienced and intelligent people were there to train them properly, and everyone had personally familiarized themselves with their weapons and equipment, I think it would work quite well.

[jonesde]

In the past, no one was technically forced into the military. The order to report for induction needed to be obeyed but the next step was voluntary. A statement along the lines of, 'Everyone who is here for induction, take a step forward'. Taking a step forward is what you do to 'volunteer' for induction. If you don't take that step, you will be insulted, threatened and maybe physically assaulted, but as long as you keep your feet together, you are not 'stepping forward'.

If our country were invaded, there would be no shortage of true volunteers.

I told my sons that is good to fight for your country, but it is not good to fight for the NWO.

I used to tell our kids, "The good thing about being an American is you never have to do anything anyone tells you to do [as long as you aren't hurting anyone]". Once, our older daughter said, "But, you and Mom tell me what to do". I told her, "You're not a full American until you're 18".

Yeah, voluntary in the same way that paying taxes is "voluntary". You only see gun barrels, hand cuffs, and cages if you don't "voluntarily" comply.

[awar_e]

Sorry if I misjudged your posts, FF. I just saw a thread with posts from people who planned to refuse the draft, and you posting about how people who won't fight to defend their country are cowards, and somehow correlated the two. I'll admit I probably jumped the gun since what I judged you to be saying ticked me off.

My personal viewpoint is that I won't join a military that invades other countries whatever the law may say, but when the time comes to defend against threats on our own soil (foreign or domestic), I'll do what I can, including joining any local defense militia.

I'll admit I was a bit puzzled since your posts up to now haven't been of that nature. I guess I shouldn't post in a bad mood :ymhug: .

Sometimes I have great difficulty articulating the exact point I want to make.

Frankly, I don't care about foreign wars, I think we have no business getting involved with them. And I do think our government purposely stirs up trouble so they feel justified in getting many of our soldiers killed.

But aside from all that, military training can be beneficial. I mean, you mentioned joining a militia. Well, just what kind of training is required to be a successful militia unit? You got it...Guerrilla warfare...learning ways and means of taking out the enemy. And just who is going to teach that type of training? Someone that knows how to fight. And where do they get that kind of training?

I'm saying that when we have to fight the government on our local soil, somebody better know how to lead the pack, and help people survive. The people have to learn to take orders so the unit functions as one...not a wild bunch running every which way.

A battle can be one with few people, but a war can only be one by using a well trained, disciplined unit of hundreds of people, having the same end in mind....restoring freedom and liberty. This is how Moroni was so successful.

That is my greatest fear regarding surviving against a govt out of control. WE have no massive unity of purpose and obviously each thinks they should manage their own actions. A four post series even in this forum can have a cat and dog fight over most anything.
Of one mind and purpose has been stricken from the language ever since 1948.

[awar_e]

Perhaps the best source of training might come from the moonshiners in the hills. They understand how to survive against great odds.

[freedomforall]

This goes along with what I've been saying.

From "The Hidden Things of Darkness" written by Christopher Bentley

To Save Freedom.jpg (142.98 KiB) Viewed 801 times

[jonesde]

Perhaps the best source of training might come from the moonshiners in the hills. They understand how to survive against great odds.

I think you're onto something here. There are some important differences between modern large force military action and what any of us is likely to be involved with should a foreign army invade the USA, or should the USA violently fail or break apart (as opposed to doing so in a peaceful way, which is unlikely due to debt, power lust, etc), and the small guerrilla or insurgent tactics that we are more likely to engage in as individuals more interested in defense than empire building.

We could probably learn more from modern insurgents and organized crime than from the US Military. Not that many people engaged in such activities are doing good things, but their tactics of evading large organized forces and institutions and of winning a war of attrition are more likely to be useful.

I've run into this with survival stuff as well. So much military survival and military tactical teaching assumes short-term situations or consistent supply. The concepts of escape and evasion are useful, but they don't go into things useful to civil defense like raiding convoys, taking supplies, or prioritizing the survival of yourself and those you care about as THE mission instead of a priority less than some other mission.

Training to be part of a large force that basically stomps on bugs and defends itself from pests is not likely to be useful. The chances of having a worldwide secure data network that we can use to control drones (air-, ground- or water-based), keep real-time status, relay orders and mission plans, and so on is pretty slim. That requires a level of organization and dominance that only really exists as part of empire building. There may be ways to hack technology established by others (like takeover or piggybacking of satellites, ground relay towers, etc, etc), but building and maintaining that sort of technology is not the sort of thing that will be tenable if things are falling apart enough for us to actually have to deploy our own arms in defense of ourselves and our communities.

[uglypitbull]

This goes along with what I've been saying.

From "The Hidden Things of Darkness" written by Christopher Bentley

To Save Freedom.jpg

Does anyone have any idea as to how to get a copy of this book? I cant find it anywhere...is it out of print?

[buffalo_girl]

Here's another possibility...there are many more throughout scripture which could be considered.

2Kings 6
15 And when the servant of the man of God was risen early, and gone forth, behold, an host compassed the city both with horses and chariots. And his servant said unto him, Alas, my master! how shall we do?

16 And he answered, Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.

17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord, and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.

19 ¶And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.

20 And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that Elisha said, Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may see. And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold, they were in the midst of Samaria.

21 And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them?

22 And he answered, Thou shalt not smite them: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master.

23 And he prepared great provision for them: and when they had eaten and drunk, he sent them away, and they went to their master. So the bands of Syria came no more into the land of Israel.

[Fairminded]

Perhaps the best source of training might come from the moonshiners in the hills. They understand how to survive against great odds.

I think you're onto something here. There are some important differences between modern large force military action and what any of us is likely to be involved with should a foreign army invade the USA, or should the USA violently fail or break apart (as opposed to doing so in a peaceful way, which is unlikely due to debt, power lust, etc), and the small guerrilla or insurgent tactics that we are more likely to engage in as individuals more interested in defense than empire building.

We could probably learn more from modern insurgents and organized crime than from the US Military. Not that many people engaged in such activities are doing good things, but their tactics of evading large organized forces and institutions and of winning a war of attrition are more likely to be useful.

I've run into this with survival stuff as well. So much military survival and military tactical teaching assumes short-term situations or consistent supply. The concepts of escape and evasion are useful, but they don't go into things useful to civil defense like raiding convoys, taking supplies, or prioritizing the survival of yourself and those you care about as THE mission instead of a priority less than some other mission.

Training to be part of a large force that basically stomps on bugs and defends itself from pests is not likely to be useful. The chances of having a worldwide secure data network that we can use to control drones (air-, ground- or water-based), keep real-time status, relay orders and mission plans, and so on is pretty slim. That requires a level of organization and dominance that only really exists as part of empire building. There may be ways to hack technology established by others (like takeover or piggybacking of satellites, ground relay towers, etc, etc), but building and maintaining that sort of technology is not the sort of thing that will be tenable if things are falling apart enough for us to actually have to deploy our own arms in defense of ourselves and our communities.

Another major consideration when it comes to defense is terrain. Historically one of the greatest advantages of a small force defending its home against a larger force has been knowing the area and being able to work it to your advantage. One of the greatest examples of this in our own history is the indians vs European colonials. They were able to kill a few people and then vanish like ghosts, often with their victims having no idea where the attack had come from or how many.

So it's always a good idea to get out and explore the local landscape. Learn the land you'll be defending.

[freedomforall]

This goes along with what I've been saying.

From "The Hidden Things of Darkness" written by Christopher Bentley

To Save Freedom.jpg

Does anyone have any idea as to how to get a copy of this book? I cant find it anywhere...is it out of print?

See: http://www.amazon.com/The-Hidden-Things ... 0971790906" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[LateOutOfBed]

This goes along with what I've been saying.

From "The Hidden Things of Darkness" written by Christopher Bentley

To Save Freedom.jpg

Does anyone have any idea as to how to get a copy of this book? I cant find it anywhere...is it out of print?

See: http://www.amazon.com/The-Hidden-Things ... 0971790906" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I just recieved a copy of this book yesterday. I've read it, but I wanted my mom to read it. She'll be reading it this week! The book is absolutely amazing. I found it very interesting that there's as many if not more references in The Book of Mormon about secret combinations and their works as their are references to Christ himself! Obviously, there's several reasons for reading The Book of Mormon, the first to gain a testimony of Christ and the second to understand what we are facing and have been facing for the last 150 years as a country. We HAVE to expose these things, it's a must for survival!

-- Geoff

[Benjamin_LK]

Just a rhetorical question here: does anyone believe that somehow the Lord has limits in his reach as to where he will separate the wheat and the tares? I am pretty confident that his separation of the wheat and tares will happen, or even is happening now, not just among civilians, but among government leaders, federal employees, and people in the armed services as well. I don't think God still doesn't expect some people to keep trying, if they choose to both serve in the military and/or politics, and to account for how well they represented and/or shared the gospel principles while in that service. Until some great commandment comes that God has to say "well done" I am pretty sure we should still be willing to serve, with few exceptions based on morality issues in various available offices if we so choose, or find it to match our career/educational pursuits. Do I think the politicians who command our armed forces are neccessarily great, no I don't think that at all, but giving up on serving in some capacity, and assuming that they don't need the gospel without even trying, is a rediculous judgement to make.

By the reasoning that we should always think the military bad, well, you might as well give up believing the Book of Mormon, because the two people who credit themselves to compiling it served a wicked nation in a wicked military, yet still were somehow worthy enough to bring forth the record to light.

I would agree with Fairminded and freedomfighter's posts above, sure God can do miracles, but when the government turns truly against him, I doubt God would condemn one for learning and giving it one's all to have sufficient discipline to defend, or make the Exodus to some designated gathering place, so long as one still had faith in God in what one was doing. I am also pretty sure that God wouldn't outright ban members from going into the military without some serious revelatory warnings about it.

[uglypitbull]

Guess I could have looked at Amazon...I checked all the other options and it doesnt show up using Googleshop either.

Thanks...just ordered my copy.

[Benjamin_LK]

Perhaps the best source of training might come from the moonshiners in the hills. They understand how to survive against great odds.

I think you're onto something here. There are some important differences between modern large force military action and what any of us is likely to be involved with should a foreign army invade the USA, or should the USA violently fail or break apart (as opposed to doing so in a peaceful way, which is unlikely due to debt, power lust, etc), and the small guerrilla or insurgent tactics that we are more likely to engage in as individuals more interested in defense than empire building.

We could probably learn more from modern insurgents and organized crime than from the US Military. Not that many people engaged in such activities are doing good things, but their tactics of evading large organized forces and institutions and of winning a war of attrition are more likely to be useful.

I've run into this with survival stuff as well. So much military survival and military tactical teaching assumes short-term situations or consistent supply. The concepts of escape and evasion are useful, but they don't go into things useful to civil defense like raiding convoys, taking supplies, or prioritizing the survival of yourself and those you care about as THE mission instead of a priority less than some other mission.

Training to be part of a large force that basically stomps on bugs and defends itself from pests is not likely to be useful. The chances of having a worldwide secure data network that we can use to control drones (air-, ground- or water-based), keep real-time status, relay orders and mission plans, and so on is pretty slim. That requires a level of organization and dominance that only really exists as part of empire building. There may be ways to hack technology established by others (like takeover or piggybacking of satellites, ground relay towers, etc, etc), but building and maintaining that sort of technology is not the sort of thing that will be tenable if things are falling apart enough for us to actually have to deploy our own arms in defense of ourselves and our communities.

Being part of a force heavily dependent on cutting-edge electronics also will be practically useless if part of America's downfall involves America getting hit by nuclear weapons. Electronics will be crippled from both the power being fried by the sheer extent of the nuclear bomb blast, and transmitters will get fried by the EMP. Electronics would degrade rapidly from the nuclear fallout radiation, as most electronics aren't well "hardened" against charged particle bombardment. To keep it straight, the electronic components will be crippled, if not reduced to a fraction of overall functionality if the military at least puts some electronic-powered weapons like drones, radio, or GPS out of reach of both the hot nuclear blast as well as insulate from the EMP.

A lot of the defensive weapons and tactics available if a nuclear attack occurs will be primitive weapons, or at least conventional firearms for most general survivors, who keep safe through the event.

[freedomforall]

Just a rhetorical question here: does anyone believe that somehow the Lord has limits in his reach as to where he will separate the wheat and the tares? I am pretty confident that his separation of the wheat and tares will happen, or even is happening now, not just among civilians, but among government leaders, federal employees, and people in the armed services as well. I don't think God still doesn't expect some people to keep trying, if they choose to both serve in the military and/or politics, and to account for how well they represented and/or shared the gospel principles while in that service. Until some great commandment comes that God has to say "well done" I am pretty sure we should still be willing to serve, with few exceptions based on morality issues in various available offices if we so choose, or find it to match our career/educational pursuits. Do I think the politicians who command our armed forces are neccessarily great, no I don't think that at all, but giving up on serving in some capacity, and assuming that they don't need the gospel without even trying, is a rediculous judgement to make.

By the reasoning that we should always think the military bad, well, you might as well give up believing the Book of Mormon, because the two people who credit themselves to compiling it served a wicked nation in a wicked military, yet still were somehow worthy enough to bring forth the record to light.

I would agree with Fairminded and freedomfighter's posts above, sure God can do miracles, but when the government turns truly against him, I doubt God would condemn one for learning and giving it one's all to have sufficient discipline to defend, or make the Exodus to some designated gathering place, so long as one still had faith in God in what one was doing. I am also pretty sure that God wouldn't outright ban members from going into the military without some serious revelatory warnings about it.

Thank you, Benjamin.
If I understand it correctly, the separation of wheat and tares will begin in the church itself. I'm not saying that this verse is directly connected to the point at hand but I think it shows how God works and, to me, will be implemented in that separation.

We read:

Alma 60:23
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

inward vessel = church
outer vessel = the nation and the world

Now read it in context, and see why I think the saints should awaken to our awful situation and prepare to protect freedom. This scenario fits our time to the T.

20 Have ye forgotten the commandments of the Lord your God? Yea, have ye forgotten the captivity of our fathers? Have ye forgotten the many times we have been delivered out of the hands of our enemies?
21 Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us?
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.
24 And now, except ye do repent of that which ye have done, and begin to be up and doing, and send forth food and men unto us, and also unto Helaman, that he may support those parts of our country which he has regained, and that we may also recover the remainder of our possessions in these parts, behold it will be expedient that we contend no more with the Lamanites until we have first cleansed our inward vessel, yea, even the great head of our government.
25 And except ye grant mine epistle, and come out and show unto me a true spirit of freedom, and strive to strengthen and fortify our armies, and grant unto them food for their support, behold I will leave a part of my freemen to maintain this part of our land, and I will leave the strength and the blessings of God upon them, that none other power can operate against them—
26 And this because of their exceeding faith, and their patience in their tribulations—
27 And I will come unto you, and if there be any among you that has a desire for freedom, yea, if there be even a spark of freedom remaining, behold I will stir up insurrections among you, even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct.
28 Yea, behold I do not fear your power nor your authority, but it is my God whom I fear; and it is according to his commandments that I do take my sword to defend the cause of my country, and it is because of your iniquity that we have suffered so much loss.
29 Behold it is time, yea, the time is now at hand, that except ye do bestir yourselves in the defence of your country and your little ones, the sword of justice doth hang over you; yea, and it shall fall upon you and visit you even to your utter destruction.

We now have a crooked government. We may have to defend ourselves against tyranny. Should our desire for freedom be any less now than it was for Moroni?

[awar_e]

We are a group with many different paradigms of what is considered normal. As the gadiantons have been in power to some degree since 1776 that we know of, they have grown stronger as the years have passed. Our govt has morphed to become something previously thought to be impossible as we ended a war that was presented as a righteous war, and after a short breather, while the govt was changed mightily with FDR, Johnson and some assorted other ilk, we now see our nation as being the debtor nation that is hated by all.

When we allowed the constitution to become a ridiculed and disdained document, we lost the will and understanding to defend it against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

For some decades the GA's have warned that the real threat to our freedoms would come from within. How many still do not see that?
When the national mind set is that we "must support the troops" as they are sent to "protect our freedoms" by killing enough to cause the overthrow of numerous govts., we are our own worst enemy.
Supporting our troops would mean to get them home on the next plane and remove them from such mind destroying situations as now is causing them to suffer more deaths from suicide than from combat.

As we grow older our views change, perhaps because we have been lied to by govt for more years than the younger generations have witnessed. I see a good example of the altering of history if we do a REAL search for the truth about Joseph P McCarthy. In 1950-53 we were glued to the radio as the McCarthy hearings were on going. When the internet became a source of news we began to see a flood of "new and skewed" stories about how McCarthy was a mental case, etc.
There can still be found a number of the factual accounts of the McCarthy era, while we continue to observe what he warned about , which is now fact, as the spin stories are still proliferated.

[AshleyB]

We are a group with many different paradigms of what is considered normal. As the gadiantons have been in power to some degree since 1776 that we know of, they have grown stronger as the years have passed. Our govt has morphed to become something previously thought to be impossible as we ended a war that was presented as a righteous war, and after a short breather, while the govt was changed mightily with FDR, Johnson and some assorted other ilk, we now see our nation as being the debtor nation that is hated by all.

When we allowed the constitution to become a ridiculed and disdained document, we lost the will and understanding to defend it against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.

For some decades the GA's have warned that the real threat to our freedoms would come from within. How many still do not see that?
When the national mind set is that we "must support the troops" as they are sent to "protect our freedoms" by killing enough to cause the overthrow of numerous govts., we are our own worst enemy.
Supporting our troops would mean to get them home on the next plane and remove them from such mind destroying situations as now is causing them to suffer more deaths from suicide than from combat.

As we grow older our views change, perhaps because we have been lied to by govt for more years than the younger generations have witnessed. I see a good example of the altering of history if we do a REAL search for the truth about Joseph P McCarthy. In 1950-53 we were glued to the radio as the McCarthy hearings were on going. When the internet became a source of news we began to see a flood of "new and skewed" stories about how McCarthy was a mental case, etc.
There can still be found a number of the factual accounts of the McCarthy era, while we continue to observe what he warned about , which is now fact, as the spin stories are still proliferated.

Well said. Although, I don't think its just the younger generations who are blind though there are many of them who are. I know some who are a good bit my senior that don't fully get how corrupt things have become... And then when you are younger they won't listen to you because your younger...

[Benjamin_LK]

Just a rhetorical question here: does anyone believe that somehow the Lord has limits in his reach as to where he will separate the wheat and the tares? I am pretty confident that his separation of the wheat and tares will happen, or even is happening now, not just among civilians, but among government leaders, federal employees, and people in the armed services as well. I don't think God still doesn't expect some people to keep trying, if they choose to both serve in the military and/or politics, and to account for how well they represented and/or shared the gospel principles while in that service. Until some great commandment comes that God has to say "well done" I am pretty sure we should still be willing to serve, with few exceptions based on morality issues in various available offices if we so choose, or find it to match our career/educational pursuits. Do I think the politicians who command our armed forces are neccessarily great, no I don't think that at all, but giving up on serving in some capacity, and assuming that they don't need the gospel without even trying, is a rediculous judgement to make.

By the reasoning that we should always think the military bad, well, you might as well give up believing the Book of Mormon, because the two people who credit themselves to compiling it served a wicked nation in a wicked military, yet still were somehow worthy enough to bring forth the record to light.

I would agree with Fairminded and freedomfighter's posts above, sure God can do miracles, but when the government turns truly against him, I doubt God would condemn one for learning and giving it one's all to have sufficient discipline to defend, or make the Exodus to some designated gathering place, so long as one still had faith in God in what one was doing. I am also pretty sure that God wouldn't outright ban members from going into the military without some serious revelatory warnings about it.

Thank you, Benjamin.
If I understand it correctly, the separation of wheat and tares will begin in the church itself. I'm not saying that this verse is directly connected to the point at hand but I think it shows how God works and, to me, will be implemented in that separation.

We read:

Alma 60:23
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

inward vessel = church
outer vessel = the nation and the world

Now read it in context, and see why I think the saints should awaken to our awful situation and prepare to protect freedom. This scenario fits our time to the T.

20 Have ye forgotten the commandments of the Lord your God? Yea, have ye forgotten the captivity of our fathers? Have ye forgotten the many times we have been delivered out of the hands of our enemies?
21 Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us?
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.
24 And now, except ye do repent of that which ye have done, and begin to be up and doing, and send forth food and men unto us, and also unto Helaman, that he may support those parts of our country which he has regained, and that we may also recover the remainder of our possessions in these parts, behold it will be expedient that we contend no more with the Lamanites until we have first cleansed our inward vessel, yea, even the great head of our government.
25 And except ye grant mine epistle, and come out and show unto me a true spirit of freedom, and strive to strengthen and fortify our armies, and grant unto them food for their support, behold I will leave a part of my freemen to maintain this part of our land, and I will leave the strength and the blessings of God upon them, that none other power can operate against them—
26 And this because of their exceeding faith, and their patience in their tribulations—
27 And I will come unto you, and if there be any among you that has a desire for freedom, yea, if there be even a spark of freedom remaining, behold I will stir up insurrections among you, even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct.
28 Yea, behold I do not fear your power nor your authority, but it is my God whom I fear; and it is according to his commandments that I do take my sword to defend the cause of my country, and it is because of your iniquity that we have suffered so much loss.
29 Behold it is time, yea, the time is now at hand, that except ye do bestir yourselves in the defence of your country and your little ones, the sword of justice doth hang over you; yea, and it shall fall upon you and visit you even to your utter destruction.

We now have a crooked government. We may have to defend ourselves against tyranny. Should our desire for freedom be any less now than it was for Moroni?

Freedomfighter, as a matter of fact, it's among my favorite references. If the church, or the membership isn't doing so well, how can we expect to have a positive impact outside of the church. I just feel at times bothered as a convert when some people doubt that there are still places that somehow it isn't important to serve and be a member missionary, the Lord will say "well done" when the time for sharing the gospel is up, but being in the church sort of does involve having a good deal of patience, especially when it comes to not jumping the gun with the Lord's expectations. It's often tempting to do it, but it's worth it not to.

-Benjamin

[InfoWarrior82]

By the reasoning that we should always think the military bad, well, you might as well give up believing the Book of Mormon, because the two people who credit themselves to compiling it served a wicked nation in a wicked military, yet still were somehow worthy enough to bring forth the record to light.

Correction. Mormon and Moroni resigned when they realized their leaders were corrupt and going to war for unrighteous reasons. For this, they were blessed to be the ones to bring us this glorious record.

P.S. if you reason for joining the military is perchance to share the gospel... you're joining the military for the wrong reason. You're going to end up doing more harm in the long run.

[awar_e]

Just a rhetorical question here: does anyone believe that somehow the Lord has limits in his reach as to where he will separate the wheat and the tares? I am pretty confident that his separation of the wheat and tares will happen, or even is happening now, not just among civilians, but among government leaders, federal employees, and people in the armed services as well. I don't think God still doesn't expect some people to keep trying, if they choose to both serve in the military and/or politics, and to account for how well they represented and/or shared the gospel principles while in that service. Until some great commandment comes that God has to say "well done" I am pretty sure we should still be willing to serve, with few exceptions based on morality issues in various available offices if we so choose, or find it to match our career/educational pursuits. Do I think the politicians who command our armed forces are neccessarily great, no I don't think that at all, but giving up on serving in some capacity, and assuming that they don't need the gospel without even trying, is a rediculous judgement to make.

By the reasoning that we should always think the military bad, well, you might as well give up believing the Book of Mormon, because the two people who credit themselves to compiling it served a wicked nation in a wicked military, yet still were somehow worthy enough to bring forth the record to light.

I would agree with Fairminded and freedomfighter's posts above, sure God can do miracles, but when the government turns truly against him, I doubt God would condemn one for learning and giving it one's all to have sufficient discipline to defend, or make the Exodus to some designated gathering place, so long as one still had faith in God in what one was doing. I am also pretty sure that God wouldn't outright ban members from going into the military without some serious revelatory warnings about it.

Thank you, Benjamin.
If I understand it correctly, the separation of wheat and tares will begin in the church itself. I'm not saying that this verse is directly connected to the point at hand but I think it shows how God works and, to me, will be implemented in that separation.

We read:

Alma 60:23
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.

inward vessel = church
outer vessel = the nation and the world

Now read it in context, and see why I think the saints should awaken to our awful situation and prepare to protect freedom. This scenario fits our time to the T.

20 Have ye forgotten the commandments of the Lord your God? Yea, have ye forgotten the captivity of our fathers? Have ye forgotten the many times we have been delivered out of the hands of our enemies?
21 Or do ye suppose that the Lord will still deliver us, while we sit upon our thrones and do not make use of the means which the Lord has provided for us?
22 Yea, will ye sit in idleness while ye are surrounded with thousands of those, yea, and tens of thousands, who do also sit in idleness, while there are thousands round about in the borders of the land who are falling by the sword, yea, wounded and bleeding?
23 Do ye suppose that God will look upon you as guiltless while ye sit still and behold these things? Behold I say unto you, Nay. Now I would that ye should remember that God has said that the inward vessel shall be cleansed first, and then shall the outer vessel be cleansed also.
24 And now, except ye do repent of that which ye have done, and begin to be up and doing, and send forth food and men unto us, and also unto Helaman, that he may support those parts of our country which he has regained, and that we may also recover the remainder of our possessions in these parts, behold it will be expedient that we contend no more with the Lamanites until we have first cleansed our inward vessel, yea, even the great head of our government.
25 And except ye grant mine epistle, and come out and show unto me a true spirit of freedom, and strive to strengthen and fortify our armies, and grant unto them food for their support, behold I will leave a part of my freemen to maintain this part of our land, and I will leave the strength and the blessings of God upon them, that none other power can operate against them—
26 And this because of their exceeding faith, and their patience in their tribulations—
27 And I will come unto you, and if there be any among you that has a desire for freedom, yea, if there be even a spark of freedom remaining, behold I will stir up insurrections among you, even until those who have desires to usurp power and authority shall become extinct.
28 Yea, behold I do not fear your power nor your authority, but it is my God whom I fear; and it is according to his commandments that I do take my sword to defend the cause of my country, and it is because of your iniquity that we have suffered so much loss.
29 Behold it is time, yea, the time is now at hand, that except ye do bestir yourselves in the defence of your country and your little ones, the sword of justice doth hang over you; yea, and it shall fall upon you and visit you even to your utter destruction.

We now have a crooked government. We may have to defend ourselves against tyranny. Should our desire for freedom be any less now than it was for Moroni?

Freedomfighter, as a matter of fact, it's among my favorite references. If the church, or the membership isn't doing so well, how can we expect to have a positive impact outside of the church. I just feel at times bothered as a convert when some people doubt that there are still places that somehow it isn't important to serve and be a member missionary, the Lord will say "well done" when the time for sharing the gospel is up, but being in the church sort of does involve having a good deal of patience, especially when it comes to not jumping the gun with the Lord's expectations. It's often tempting to do it, but it's worth it not to.

-Benjamin

Being a convert from age 40, I recognized that I knew virtually nothing about prophecy, past events or even what the Lord's plan was for each of us. I began to read voraciously regarding prophecy and also the workings of the gadiantons, as I studied the founding documents,etc. During this quest, I thought that lifetime members already knew what had taken me over 10 years to learn. Now as I have watched the destruction of our nation for the past 56 years since I got out of the Army, I am amazed how few can see the snares which have been placed upon them as they have accepted the plan to enslave everyone.
When the young swallowed the lie about a college degree leading to riches in a fast way, they grabbed for as much college debt as they could find. That was step one for a lifetime of debt. (Slavery to the banks)
Next came marriage with a home to furnish and credit was available as long as you could obtain another card.
Those who were more stable by that time, could buy a home in an ever increasing price bubble.
Cars were sold on time after WW2 when the production caught up with demand which took about 3 years.
Now we see them being leased with seldom any mention of a purchase price, which is further evidence of bank slavery.
Now we have a president? making claims that he will cause as many layoffs as possible to punish the legislators
who will not give him free rein to continue his destruction of the US dollar. Without understanding the gadianton plan (aka UN) we can not fathom what is happening. The plan includes a one world, govt, and monetary system and RELIGION. Have we seen anything unusual in the Catholic church lately? The Lord has a hand in all things such as missionary numbers and missions increasing rapidly.
How many can see that we are in the winding down stages of the NWO/UN agenda? Are we prepared?