LDS Freedom Forum

Hold your breath, this one's a doosie... (Eyes wide open)

I was inspired to start this thread by some comments from multiple threads... (If it is too much or too blunt or not inline with the spirit of the forum, then, Moderators feel free to delete it...

Before reading this, I want to ensure you that I do have a testimony that the LDS Church is the most correct Church on earth meaning that we can get nearer to God by abiding by it's precepts than by any other organized religion. (If you want to call this "True" go ahead. lol, the word “True” doesn't make much sense to me. It doesn't say anything useful to me. What IS true about the Church? Certainly not the doctrines taught in the ward meetings or even everything taught in GC, My opinion anyway. But if a Church can be defined as "True" then the LDS Church is the only physical church that meets that general description.)

And I will also add that the leaders of the Church are inspired, usually. And regardless of the flaws of men, the church continues on and it IS fulfilling the work that it was established to do. I am a result of the Church. I love who I am! I love that God used the church to bring me to where I am in my progression and I encourage everyone to trust God and the spirit to come to know God for yourselves.

I know that that sounds a bot waffly, but it is hard to say absolutes regarding the LDS Church when you have intimate knowledge of the Church of the Firstborn and see the difference. I do speak honestly though, the LDS church is inspired, usually or more often than not! And I know that President Monson is a Prophet of God. No question. And he is a good man with a huge heart.

Ok, with that being said...

We know that prophets have flaws and are imperfect. But can we see the flaws, and acknowledge them with eyes wide open and still accept them as a prophets of God? When we look at the prophet Jonah who saved the souls of Nineveh, can we recognize his flaws and failings and still acknowledge his divine calling?

When we Look at President Monson, and the other 14 men at the top of the church, (or the prophets and apostles of our recent past), can we see their weaknesses and still accept that they have been called by God despite their weaknesses?

Does the Church have to be perfect to be God’s church? Does it have to do everything right good and glorious in order to be God’s church? Does it have to be an "All or Nothing" Church?

Can it be God’s church and not be perfect, and even occasionally break the law, make poor financial decisions, use consecrated money for unintended purposes, and even sometimes teach false doctrine?

The church has and does all these things, and will continue to do all these things because imperfect men and women hold the reigns. Until the people in every position become infallible the church will continue to make mistakes and have issues, even in doctrine.

Now to the point, We all accept that Christ Leads the Church.

BUT, How does Christ lead this church? Does he personally attend the weekly and monthly meetings in the temple?

Amonhi wrote:BUT, How does Christ lead this church? Does he personally attend the weekly and monthly meetings in the temple?

Nope, he runs it the same way He ran the early church after he ascended to heaven.

Look at every major doctrine and change that has come about in the church. Never once has anyone said that Christ showed up and told us what he wants done with his church. Look at how the doctrine was decided upon regarding the end of the Law of Moses/whether the gentiles should be placed under the Law of Moses to be saved. This was one of the most important doctrine decisions of the day and Christ didn’t show up to tell them what to do. There was no edict from heaven spelling out word for word the revelation from Christ. It was the same process then as it is today.

Acts 1:1-2 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

Christ chose his original 12 Apostles personally. After that, the 11 remaining apostles replaced Judas as an apostle by first considering who had been with them from Jesus baptism through to his resurrection. That narrowed it down to 2 men. Then they “cast lots” (rolled the dice) to see which of them should replace Judas. They had not yet received the Gift of the Holy Ghost. (See ACTs 1:20-26) (They received the gift of the Holy Ghost in the next Chapter.)

Major doctrine decisions were not made by Christ appearing and telling the people what he wants taught or done. They were not dictated by Christ directly word for word as we see the revelations recorded in the D&C. Here is how major doctrine decisions were made in the primitive church:

ACTs 15:5-12 - But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 ¶And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.

Notice that Peter heard the arguments from both sides and then used logic and reasoning to persuade the others. Aside from this, we assume that Peter had the Holy Ghost bear witness to him regarding the direction the church should take, but Christ was not found present in the meeting.

The church today is run the same way. Christ doesn’t show up in the meetings. In fact, many of the 15 men that run the church have never seen Christ, in vision, dream or otherwise.

How does Christ lead and guide his church today? President Hinckley was asked this many times in the hundreds of interviews he had. Every time he said about the same thing. Here is an example of what he said,

RB: As the world leader of the the Church, how are you in touch with God? Can you explain that for me?

GBH: I pray. I pray to Him. Night and morning. I speak with Him. I think He hears my prayers. As He hears the prayers of others. I think He answers them.

RB: But more than that, because you’re leader of the Church. Do you have a special connection?

GBH: I have a special relationship in terms of the Church as an institution. Yes.

RB: And you receive........

GBH: For the entire Church.

RB: You receive?

GBH: Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation. But if a problem arises, as it does occasionally, a vexatious thing with which we have to deal, we go to the Lord in prayer. We discuss it as a First Presidency and as a Council of the Twelve Apostles. We pray about it and then comes the whisperings of a still small voice. And we know the direction we should take and we proceed accordingly.

RB: And this is a Revelation?

GBH: This is a Revelation.

RB: How often have you received such revelations?

GBH: Oh, I don’t know. I feel satisfied that in some circumstances we’ve had such revelation. It’s a very sacred thing that we don’t like to talk about a lot. A very sacred thing.

Q: But it’s a special experience?

GBH: I think it’s a real thing. It’s a very real thing. And a special experience.
- http://www.abc.net.au/compass/intervs/hinckley.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is how the church is run… The same way you would receive revelation from the Holy Ghost to teach a gospel Doctrine class, run a ward as a bishop or prepare to Home and visiting teaching lesson.

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

There is no visit from Christ in this process as publicly detailed so many times by President Hinckley. In fact, it is exactly like it was in the primitive church under Peter. (Acts 15)

Amonhi wrote:There is no visit from Christ in this process as publicly detailed so many times by President Hinckley. In fact, it is exactly like it was in the primitive church under Peter. (Acts 15)

I know some people will say, “No they talk with Christ face to face and Christ tells them what to do.” That is a nice idea, and I will admit that some have seen Christ, not all, and I would even venture to say not the majority. But before getting into that, let’s look at some of the major decisions made in the church and see if we can find Christ appearing in person to direct and lead the church.

How blacks received the priesthood…

Here is Elder Bruce R. McConkie’s description of how the revelation came…

It was during this prayer that the revelation came. The Spirit of the Lord rested upon us all; we felt something akin to what happened on the day of Pentecost and at the Kirtland Temple. From the midst of eternity, the voice of God, conveyed by the power of the Spirit, spoke to his prophet. The message was that the time had now come to offer the fullness of the everlasting gospel, including celestial marriage, and the priesthood, and the blessings of the temple, to all men, without reference to race or color, solely on the basis of personal worthiness. And we all heard the same voice, received the same message, and became personal witnesses that the word received was the mind and will and voice of the Lord. - Kimball, Spencer W.; et al. (1981), Priesthood, Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book, pp. 127–128, ISBN 0877478597, OCLC 7572974

That sounds pretty awesome! But Brucey seemed to like dramatics… For example, He wasn’t present at the day of Pentecost nor at the Kirtland Temple so he is making assumptions that his experience was like that of the other experiences without being able to truly compare them from experience. But, ok, that works...

But more importantly, McConkie is speaking in the langue of the scriptures. For example: "The voice of God" that they all heard was the ratifying voice of the spirit as detailed in D&C 68:4 & 75:1. Other accounts including Elder Hinckley’s account were not so dramatic, to say the least and referenced a simple witness from the still small voice. (Remember that President Hinckley said that we don't receive visions any more and that revelation comes from the still small voice. If he had heard the voice of the Lord the way McConkie described it to the Saints, then I think Hinckley might have expressed a little more regarding the grand experience. However, there were 15 people present in the meeting and some one them spoke as openly as McConkie did...

In an interview on August 16, 1978, in the Church Office Building, Salt Lake City, Elder LeGrande Richards who was also an Apostle at the times shared his thoughts on the matter with Wesley Walters and Chris Vlachos:

Walters: On this revelation, of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories: I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles; I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared; and then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time, and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Are any of those stories true, or are they all?

Richards: Well, the last one is pretty true, and I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population there that it is hard to get leaders that don't have negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All those people with Negro blood in them have been raising money to build that temple. If we don't change, then they can't even use it. Well, Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it. He asked each one of us of the twelve if we would pray--and we did--that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. Then he invited each one of us in his office--individually, because you know when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of the group, see--so he interviewed each one of us, personally to see how we felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. Then he asked each one of us to hand in all the references we had, for, or against that proposal. See, he was thinking favorably toward giving the colored people the priesthood. Then we had a meeting where we meet every week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group circle. and then held another prayer circle after the close of that meeting, and he (President Kimball) lead in the prayer; praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed to do the thing that would be pleasing to Him and for the blessing of His children.

And then the next Thursday--we meet every Thursday--the presidency came with this little document written out to make the announcement--to see how we'd feel about it--and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of the Twelve suggested a few changes in the announcement, and then in our meeting there we all voted in favor of it--the Twelve and the first Presidency. One member of the Twelve, Mark Peterson, was down in South America, but Brother Benson, our president, had arranged to know where he could be reached by phone, and right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother Kimball talked with Brother Peterson, and read him the article, and he (Peterson) approved of it.

Walters: There wasn't a special document as a "revelation", that he had wrote down?

Richards: We discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that that was sufficient; that no more needed to be said.

How about the end of Polygamy?

Wikipedia makes the following points:

The final element in President Woodruff's revelatory experience came on the evening of September 23, 1890. The following morning, he reported to some of the General Authorities that he had struggled throughout the night with the Lord regarding the path that should be pursued. The result was a 510-word handwritten manuscript which stated his intentions to comply with the law and denied that the church continued to solemnize or condone plural marriages. The document was later edited by George Q. Cannon of the First Presidency and others to its present 356 words. On October 6, 1890, it was presented to the Latter-day Saints at the General Conference and approved. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_ ... l_marriage" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If the Lord had dictated the revelation as he seems to have with the majority of the D&C, then it would seem odd that George Q. Cannon and others would feel it appropriate edit and revise the revelation down to 356 words and changing the dictates from the Lord before presenting it to the Lords people… Of course maybe Joseph Smith edited the words of the Lord before putting they were added to the D&C and declared scripture.

Some Other Verifiable References:
If Christ lead the church himself, in the resurrected flesh or even by visions, then we would assume that all of the Presidents of the church would have seen him at some point or perhaps even regularly. Although some leaders have seen Christ, not all of them have. This is a testimony of personal preparedness more than position, especially in light of the fact that many members of the church have seen Christ without being called to high leadership positions in the Church.

Consider the following examples of Presidents of the church who had never seen Christ.

Brigham Young was ordained president of the Church in December 1847. He had lead the church for about 12 years when he said the following:

“I have flattered myself, if I am as faithful as I know how to be to my God, and my brethren, and to all my covenants, and faithful in the discharge of my duty, when I have lived to be as old as was Moses when the Lord appeared to him, that perhaps I then may hold communion with the Lord, as did Moses. I am not now in that position, though I know much more than I did twenty, ten, or five years ago. But have I yet lived to the state of perfection that I can commune in person with the Father and the Son at my will and pleasure? No, - though I hold myself in readiness that he can wield me at his will and pleasure. If I am faithful until I am eighty years of age, perhaps the Lord will appear to me and personally dictate me in the management of his Church and people. A little over twenty years, and if I am faithful, perhaps I will obtain that favour with my Father and God.” - Journal of Discourses, 7:243. Brigham Young, September 1, 1859

About another 6 years later he said, (President of the Church for 17 years at the time of this statement.)

And what shall we say of our Heavenly Father? He is also a man in perfection, and the father of the man Jesus Christ, and the father of our spirits; He lives far above the influence and power of sin, and holds in his hands the destinies of all. We have not seen the person of the Father, neither have we seen that of the Son; but we have seen the children of the Father, and the brethren of the Savior, who are in every way like them in physical appearance and organization. Although mankind of the same color look alike, yet there exist expressions of the features by which one person can be distinguished from another. The human family all resemble one another in the main characteristics of humanity, and all resemble the Savior who died for us; and could we see him in the flesh, as he appeared to the ancients, we should very likely find that some men are more like him that others in feature and form, as we often see men who are more like Joseph Smith than others are. - Journal of Discourses, 11:42. Brigham Young, January 8, 1865

The following letter was written by President Heber J. Grant to his sister 13 April 1926. (Grant succeeded Joseph F. Smith as president of the LDS Church in November 1918. He had been the Prophet/president of the church for 8 years.)

Dear Sister:

Answering your letter of the 12th.

I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Sincerely your brother,

[signed] Heber J. Grant
- Lester Bush’s papers at the UU
- http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/02/23/a ... ng-letter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After nearly 24 years as President of the church President Grant tells us in General Conference address in 1942:

"I have never prayed to see the Savoior, … I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestations to them.”

President Grant indicates that having such great manifestations might cause us to fall. As if he as the President of the Church might fall by having such an experience… This is an odd idea because what he is saying is that those who have such experiences “fall” and those who don’t remain grounded in the church. If the church cannot bring us to have those experiences, then it isn’t doing its job of bringing souls to Christ. And if those who do come to Christ fall away from the church, then maybe the problem isn’t with those who are speaking to God directly, maybe the problem is somewhere else. Joseph “Fell” from Christianity too, but I don’t think the problem is with him…

Now, I speak from personal experience having been in the presence of Christ myself. I have felt of his unfathomable love and acceptance. I have been held in his arms. I was healed by him. I know the reality of Christ firsthand and give my witness that Christ lives and loves. I have more than a witness from the Holy Ghost. I say emphatically that there IS a more powerful witness than the Holy Ghost and ANYONE who says that the Holy Ghost is the most powerful witness has not stood in the presence of Christ or God. I have experienced the presence of the Holy Ghost and I have experienced the presence of Christ and the latter pales the former like the Sun does the stars! There is no comparison. I have asked a number of people who have seen Christ if they could ever say that the Holy Ghost was a greater witness or even an equal witness and they all laugh as it seems so ridicules to compare the still small voice with the majesty and glory of God. It just isn’t on the same scale…

Anyway, back to how Christ leads the church…

President George Albert Smith was the next Prophet/President of the church starting May 21, 1945. After serving as the President of the Church for nearly 5 years, he wrote the following on March 25, 1950:

"I have not seen the Father or the Son, neither have I heard their voices in an audible way, but I have felt their presence and have enjoyed the whispering of the Still Small Voice that comes from them, the result of which has given me a testimony of the truth." - "The Vocation of David Wright: An Essay in Analytic Biography1" by Bruce W. Jorgensen in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 11, No. 2 Summer 1978, p. 48-49[

The sixth president of the LDS Church testified under oath before Congress that he, as prophet of the Church, has not received any revelations and that he only gets impressions from God the same as any good Methodist would get. I think that he didn’t understand what he was talking about because we receive revelations all the time and just don’t acknowledge them as coming from God…(So he must have had revelations…)

The actual dialogue:

"Senator Dubios: Have you received any revelations from God, which has been submitted by you and the apostles to the body of the church in their semiannual conference, which revelation has been sustained by that conference, through the upholding of their hands?

Mr. Smith: Since when?

Senator Dubios: Since you became President of the Church.

Mr. Smith: NO, SIR; NONE WHATEVER.

Senator Dubios: Have you received any individual revelations yourself, since you became President of the church under your own definition, even, of a revelation?

Mr. Smith: I CANNOT SAY THAT I HAVE.

Senator Dubois: Can you say that you have not?

Mr. Smith: No; I cannot say that I have not.

Senator Dubois: Then you do not know whether you have received any such revelation as you have described or whether you have not?

Mr. Smith: Well, I can say this: That if I live as I should in the line of my duties, I AM SUSCEPTIBLE, I THINK, of the impressions of the Spirit of the Lord upon my mind at any time, JUST AS ANY GOOD METHODIST or any other good church member might be. And so far as that is concerned, I say yes; I have had impressions of the Spirit upon my mind very frequently, but they ARE NOT IN THE SENSE OF REVELATIONS." (Reed Smoot Case, Vol. 1, pages 483-484).

On page 99 of the same volume Joseph F. Smith stated:
'I have NEVER PRETENDED TO NOR DO I PROFESS TO HAVE RECEIVED REVELATIONS.'

It is a good thing we have modern Prophets like Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson’s who have more revelations than those of the past, because... wait, I am reminded of President Hinckley who said, "Now we don’t need a lot of continuing revelation. We have a great, basic reservoir of revelation” and “Revelation no longer comes by vision.” (Quoted above… )But at least he didn’t say it doesn’t come at all… That’s a step up, right?!?

(Somewhat with tongue in cheek) But hey, as Elder Hinckley said, “Don't worry. The Lord is at the helm. This is his church. He has made provisions for it to go forward under any set of circumstances that might face it.” (http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=404" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) And someone might add, “All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well, and it will continue to be so because the Lord has set this little machine in motion and made provisions for it to go forward under any set of circumstances that it might face. It can’t be set off the rails, it will never lead us astray and we might as well give up our free will and personal revelation because our leaders are inspired for us and we have Current Church Doctrines, protocols and procedures to think for us.”

And so it is. Look at our poor missionary force. If the church wasn’t true, they would have destroyed it long ago… (or so I am told.) And if the church wasn't true, then our leaders would have put us in spiritual bondage and we would have ended up like the Catholic Church where the members can’t talk to God for themselves so they are forced to rely on their prophet or uh pope…to tell them what God says and to receive divine direction from God.

It is a good thing that the Pope can’t lead them astray or they would have real cause to worry. But then again, because they listen to, obey and follow their Pope above their own inspiration, they wouldn’t know the difference anyway. Their leader could walk them off a spiritual cliff and without personal revelation they wouldn’t know the will of God for themselves and would just happily follow right along. 8-|

Or worse yet, if they were inspired contrary to the Current Church Doctrine of the Catholic Church or the Pope they would be told that they were apostate and be excommunicated for not sustaining the pope and cardinals and arch bishops… And they would easily be told that their personal views are wrong unless they agree with the Church or the Pope that speaks for God. And that if God wanted the Catholic Church to know something, he would certainly tell the Pope and not some inspired Martin Luther or Joan of Arc from the lower ranks…

I am so glad our Prophets are inspired because I would hate to be required to agree with my spiritual leaders or be considered an apostate if they were NOT inspired. I mean, imagine being required to agree with the views of the false Popes?!? I mean, if I want to keep my membership and that requires me to give up my own intelligence and spiritual witness to accept those of my leaders, then I would rather be lead by the nose by inspired leaders than be lead by the nose by uninspired people. Having your salvation dependent upon obedience to inspired people is soooo much better than having your salvation dependent on obedience to uninspired people… Not that we could tell the difference without personal revelation, but it feels better and safer thinking that our leaders won’t lead us astray…
8-|

LOL, I’m just kidding, …and perhaps I should not joke about something so important. But honestly, if I wasn’t joking, I would be crying because All is NOT well in Zion! The way I see it, at least 25% of the church are good people that should have their C&E. I would just be glad if 10% of the church had more than heard of the blessing and 5% had a general idea as to what it was…

Special Witnesses:
Have they seen Christ to be a special Witness? “Current Church Doctrine” has changed so that our special witnesses no longer are required to have seen Christ for themselves. The “Current Church Doctrine” says that they just need a testimony by the Power of the Holy Ghost to be a special witness. (They just have a testimony like any other member of the church…and they can be special witnesses, ie. Apostles and Prophets.)

Now, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERY APOSTLE OR PROPHET HAS NOT SEEN CHRIST. Some have! It just means that “Current Church Doctrine” says you don’t need to have seen Christ to be a Special Witness.

And if the idea that apostles and prophets have not seen Christ and are going around telling people they are special witnesses has been a let down to you, think of what it does to those who are called without feeling qualified!!! Remember President Grant quoted in a previous post? Here is his story detailing how he felt and the resolution he received. But notice that although he doesn't get a special witness of Christ, he is comforted by the revelation that somebody was rooting for him…

Elder Heber J. Grant (Apostle) said in General Conference,
“From October when I was called to be one of the council of the Twelve, until the following February, I had but little joy and happiness in my labors. There was a spirit following me that told me that I lacked the experience, that I lacked the inspiration, that I lacked the testimony to be worthy of the position of an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. My dear mother had inspired me with such a love of the gospel and with such a reverence and admiration for the men who stood at the head of this Church, that when I was called to be one of them I was overpowered; I felt my unworthiness and the adversary taking advantage of that feeling in my heart, day and night, the spirit pursued me, suggesting that I resign, and when I testified of the divinity of the work we are engaged in, the words would come back, "You haven't seen the Savior; you have no right to bear such a testimony," and I was very unhappy.

But in February, 1883, while riding along on the Navajo Indian Reservation with Elder Brigham Young, Jr., and fifteen or twenty other brethren, including the late president, Lot Smith, of one of the Arizona stakes, on our way to visit the Navajos and Moquis--as we were traveling that day, going through a part of the Navajo Reservation to get to the Moqui Reservation--as we were traveling to the southeast, suddenly the road turned and veered almost to the northeast, but there was a path, a trail, leading on in the direction in which we had been traveling. There were perhaps eight or ten of us on horseback and the rest in wagons. Brother Smith and I were at the rear of our company. When we came to the trail I said, "Wait a minute, Lot; where does this trail lead to?"

He said, "Oh, it leads back in the road three or four miles over here, but we have to make a detour of eight or nine miles to avoid a large gully that no wagons can cross."

I asked: "Can a horseman get over that gully?" He answered, "Yes."

I said, "Any danger from Indians, by being out there alone?" He answered, "No."

I said, "I want to be alone, so you go on with the company and I will meet you over there where the trail and road join."

One reason that I asked if there was any danger was because a few days before our company had visited the spot where George A. Smith, Jr., had been killed by the Navajo Indians, and I had that event in my mind at the time I was speaking.

I had perhaps gone one mile when in the kind providences of the Lord it was manifested to me perfectly so far as my intelligence is concerned--I did not see heaven, I did not see a council held there, but like Lehi of old, I seemed to see, and my very being was so saturated with the information that I received, as I stopped my animal and sat there and communed with heaven, that I am as absolutely convinced of the information that came to me upon that occasion as though the voice of God had spoken the words to me.

It was manifested to me there and then as I sat there and wept for joy that it was not because of any particular intelligence that I possessed, that it was not because of any knowledge that I possessed more than a testimony of the gospel, that it was not because of my wisdom, that I had been called to be one of the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ in this last dispensation, but it was because the prophet of God, the man who was the chosen instrument in the hands of the living God of establishing again upon the earth the plan of life and salvation, Joseph Smith, desired that I be called, and that my father, Jedediah M. Grant, who gave his life for the gospel, while one of the presidency of the Church, a counselor to President Brigham Young, and who had been dead for nearly twenty-six years, desired that his son should be a member of the Council of the Twelve. It was manifested to me that the prophet and my father were able to bestow upon me the apostleship because of their faithfulness, inasmuch as I had lived a clean life, that now it remained for me to make a success or a failure of that calling.

I can bear witness to you here today that I do not believe that any man on earth from that day, February, 1883, until now, thirty-five years ago, has had sweeter joy, more perfect and exquisite happiness than I have had in lifting up my voice and testifying of the gospel at home and abroad in every land and in every clime where it has fallen to my lot to go. And I have gone to Japan, I have been in the Hawaiian Islands, I have been from Canada to Mexico. I have been in nearly every state in the Union of the United States; I have been in England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Germany, Holland, Belgium, France, Switzerland, Italy, Norway, Sweden and Denmark and I have had joy beyond my ability to express, in lifting up my voice, in bearing witness to those with whom I have come in contact that I know that God lives, that I know that Jesus is the Christ, the Savior of the world, the Redeemer of mankind; that I know that Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of the true and living God, that I have the abiding testimony in my heart that Brigham Young was a chosen instrument of the living God, that John Taylor, that Wilford Woodruff, that Lorenzo Snow were, and that today Joseph F. Smith is the representative of the living God, and the mouthpiece of God here upon the earth.

I do not have the language at my command to express the gratitude to God for this knowledge that I possess; and time and time again my heart has been melted, my eyes have wept tears of gratitude for the knowledge that he lives and that this gospel called "Mormonism" is in very deed the plan of life and salvation, that it is the only true gospel upon the face of the earth, that it is in very deed the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That God may help you and me and everyone to live it is my constant and earnest prayer.” - Heber J. Grant, Conference Report, October 1918, p.23-25

His revelation was that Joseph Smith and his father worked from beyond the veil to get him into the position of an apostle and then eventually the President and Prophet. He never received a firsthand witness of the resurrected Lord, and he didn't hide that fact.

And some Apostles like David B. Haight honestly tell us upfront that they have not seen Christ but have a testimony of him.

God bless us with faith in Christ—the faith Christ stressed when he appeared to the eleven. Thomas, you recall, wanted proof—wanted to personally see what had been described to him. The Savior said, “Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.” (John 20:29.)

I have not seen, but I know. I have always known, but now I have received a greater assurance and pray that I will always know that this is the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, that it has been restored in our day, that God is a reality. I know that he lives, that man was created in his image and likeness. I know that Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary, is the Christ, the Son of God, and that there is no other name under heaven by which man can be saved. I know that he lives now—today—and that salvation is only through him; that he will bring us back, if worthy, to the presence of God, our Eternal Father. – David B. Haight http://www.lds.org/ensign/1976/05/he-is ... d?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And even more relevant, we see that some like Elder Haight do finally get that special witness. Haight got his years later, just before he died… Of Course he had been telling everyone he had it for years prior to that point… But his final testimony in his last General Conference included the new greater witness which he did not have previous to his near death experience…

I knew this truth before—I had never doubted nor wondered. But now I knew, because of the impressions of the Spirit upon my heart and soul, these divine truths in a most unusual way.
…
I was being taught, and the eyes of my understanding were opened by the Holy Spirit of God so as to behold many things.
…
During those days of unconsciousness I was given, by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, a more perfect knowledge of His mission. I was also given a more complete understanding of what it means to exercise, in His name, the authority to unlock the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven for the salvation of all who are faithful. My soul was taught over and over again the events of the betrayal, the mock trial, the scourging of the flesh of even one of the Godhead. I witnessed His struggling up the hill in His weakened condition carrying the cross and His being stretched upon it as it lay on the ground, that the crude spikes could be driven with a mallet into His hands and wrists and feet to secure His body as it hung on the cross for public display.
…
I cannot begin to convey to you the deep impact that these scenes have confirmed upon my soul.
…
The added knowledge which has come to me has made a great impact upon my life. The gift of the Holy Ghost is a priceless possession and opens the door to our ongoing knowledge of God and eternal joy. Of this I bear witness, in the holy name of Jesus Christ, amen. - https://www.lds.org/ensign/1986/09/elde ... s?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Great info! Keep it coming. I think you are on track with what I have learned so far.

The Lord leads the church as much as he leads each of us in our individual callings just like he leads the Prophet/President and the apostles...

He leads us as much as we receive personal revelation and let him lead us and teach us directly.

We choose how much the Lord leads this church by how much we allow him to lead us each individually.

We are his servants ONLY when we are acting under the direction of the Holy Ghost. That holds true for everyone from the bottom to the top of the church. A servant of God is not determined by their position, but by their spirit.

Amonhi

I feel the same way as you Amonhi. I sometimes wonder what exactly keeps some of the apostles and prophets away from actually Meeting the savior. Especially people that seem to have such a strong guidance through the holy ghost, like monson for example. Living such a life, having that guidance and inspiration consequently should lead to an audience. Of course we only can onle see the surface.

Nevertheless, I can confirm that there are Apostles today that know. The Lord will not abandon his church and only he can steady the ark

An outward showing of receiving revelation and guidance would be choosing to consume that which is good for health, and thereby being a much needed example to others.

I love this thread. I believe that being open and honest about where the church is today will actually help individuals seek and receive the greater blessings the gospel has to offer.

I have been studying D&C 84 for the last couple of months. One thing that was recently impressed upon me comes from this verse.

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 84)

20 The power and authority of the lesser, or Aaronic Priesthood, is to hold the keys of the ministering of angels, and to administer in outward ordinances, the letter of the gospel, the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins, agreeable to the covenants and commandments. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107)

In fact I was discussing this scripture with the missionaries in my ward and they said, that's what we preach. I thought, almost. We also preach the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is essentially the path to all of the higher and greater blessings the Gospel has to offer.

However, the church as a whole does not go beyond the letter of the law, the outward ordinances and carnal commandments. We remain, and often are quite content to do so, with the lesser portion of the word and the lesser priesthood. I think one of the reasons for this, has to do with D&C 124, where we are told that fullness of the priesthood was taken from us and we did not do what was required of us to get it back.

Individually everyone has the ability to receive the greater blessings.

18 The power and authority of the higher, or Melchizedek Priesthood, is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church—
19 To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the mediator of the new covenant. (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 107)

These blessings are real and I know many of have received them. I have had the privilege of having the heavens opened and communing with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn. Speaking openly in church about having the heavens opened often invites persecution and even excommunication. This would not be so if everyone in the church experienced these blessings.

I do not believe it is a criticism of the church to honestly recognize where the church is at. It preaches the preparatory gospel. It's purpose is to point the way to a higher sphere. But the LDS church, like the children of Israel, is in a fallen condition. The LDS church walks the same path that has been walked by everyone of God's chosen people.

15 Yea, and they did keep the law of Moses; for it was expedient that they should keep the law of Moses as yet, for it was not all fulfilled. But notwithstanding the law of Moses, they did look forward to the coming of Christ, considering that the law of Moses was a type of his coming, and believing that they must keep those outward performances until the time that he should be revealed unto them.
16 Now they did not suppose that salvation came by the law of Moses; but the law of Moses did serve to strengthen their faith in Christ; and thus they did retain a hope through faith, unto eternal salvation, relying upon the spirit of prophecy, which spake of those things to come. (Book of Mormon, Alma, Chapter 25)

Salvation does not come by the church or the ordinances that are performed therein. Salvation comes by Christ alone. All of the ordinances we perform point the way to salvation. Notice that in these verses it says that they did keep the outward performances until that time that he should be revealed to them. When you have a personal meeting with the Savior, He will teach you all things that which you should do. He will then fulfill the law in you and you will move to greater light and knowledge.

Great thread!

It seems that as in everything, the Lord gives us our agency. As has been mentioned, like Israel we could have God leading us directly, but we would not. It seems that even with being directed trough our prophet, to some extent we get what we want. If a prophet preaches "hard things", then by and large the members will reject that prophet, even while singing "We thank thee O God for a prophet" with enthusiasm.

The average member wants the church to be accepted by the world. They don;t want to be told we are not Christian, or that the christ that we believe in is different from the christ they believe in. They want the respectand acceptance of the world. It appears that they want a wealthy church of great and spacious buildings, fine apparel, and nice chariots. This is not in condemnation of the leadership, but of the members collectively. I don;t doubt that there are members who in their heart of hearts pray that President Packer preceeds President Monsen through the veil - will the Lord answer their prayer?

Do we pray to be led as the Lord would lead us, regardless of how difficult and challenging it may be, or do we pray that the housing market will ercover, that the economy will improve (praying for the health of Babylon, lol!), pray for a Mormon POTUS (because it will help the mission work, of course!), PRAY THAT THE LROD WILL DELAY HIS COMING A FEW MORE YEARS so that we can enjoy Babylon just a little longer? Hah of course not on this forum, and certainly NO ONE would ever admit such a thing, but I see it in the lives we live EVERY DAY.

The issue I take when someone starts to pursue this arguement is the straw man they set up in order to make their point, and that is that somehow the leaders of the Church have ever said or implied anything but "seek to gain a witness for yourself," when from the beginning that is all they have said. If someone believes they can follow their leaders without the Spirit, they simply don't understand the doctrine as our leaders have taught it. The brethren are not perfect, nor have they ever implied they were, EXCEPT when speaking under the influence of the Spirit, which can be said about any of us. There are other points in Amonhi's posts that I don't agree with (such as who has and hasn't seen Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost vs seeing Christ) but that's not the main issue being discussed. Those who stand at the head of the Church hold the keys to revelation for the Church. It is a dangerous path we pursue when we seek to cast doubt on that authority in order to make a point about presonal revelation. There are betters ways of doing so. For instance, I would rather tell someone that without a personal witness, even the words of Christ himself would not be sufficient to maintain our faith.

I think one of the proofs that shows this is true (and I'm sure there are many), is that it seems Pres. Hinckley only referred to receiving promptings of the Spirit, yet, in my view, the decision to build many temples worldwide was an inspired one, one could even say it was revealed to Pres. Hinckley that the Saints should have greater access to the temples.

I normally don't get to share this, but I feel inspired to say that revelation and all these scriptural gifts are currently available to all those who seek after them. I have been in the presence of the Christ and the Father. They love you and want you to come to them.

I have had an angel teach me the hard truths about our condition as a people. Speaking the truth may be hard, but it is not evil speaking to declare it. The LDS church is full of wheat and tares from the very top to the very bottom. But the Lord wants us to repent. Just because there are tares doesn't mean there is no wheat. Just because there is wheat doesn't mean there are no tares.

The invitation that was extended to me was to repent and then to help others to repent. I strongly feel that we need to be examples of faith while retaining our membership in the church. So for those of us who are in the church, we are called to repent and then remain in the church. (But we should never be confused as to God's power, He can and does work among all nations and peoples, including non-LDS.) But for the LDS, let us work on taking the Spirit as our guide and then when we have reached the the tasty fruit of the tree, let us help those others who are on the path to come and partake.

Gad wrote:I normally don't get to share this, but I feel inspired to say that revelation and all these scriptural gifts are currently available to all those who seek after them.

Totally agree with this. I think this is what Pres. Hinckley was getting at as Amonhi quoted above in the interview:

RB: But more than that, because you’re leader of the Church. Do you have a special connection?

GBH: I have a special relationship in terms of the Church as an institution. Yes.

In terms of his position as Prophet, Seer and Revelator, he has a unique "connection" to the Lord in directing the affairs of the church, but as an individual, he had no special access to the Lord than what we all have based upon on our faithfulness. Therefore, in terms of where the Church is heading, it is not our job to steady the ark, but in terms of where our own lives are going (and those for whom we have stewardship) we have the responsibility to seek revelation.

Gad wrote:I normally don't get to share this, but I feel inspired to say that revelation and all these scriptural gifts are currently available to all those who seek after them. I have been in the presence of the Christ and the Father. They love you and want you to come to them.

I have had an angel teach me the hard truths about our condition as a people. Speaking the truth may be hard, but it is not evil speaking to declare it. The LDS church is full of wheat and tares from the very top to the very bottom. But the Lord wants us to repent. Just because there are tares doesn't mean there is no wheat. Just because there is wheat doesn't mean there are no tares.

The invitation that was extended to me was to repent and then to help others to repent. I strongly feel that we need to be examples of faith while retaining our membership in the church. So for those of us who are in the church, we are called to repent and then remain in the church. (But we should never be confused as to God's power, He can and does work among all nations and peoples, including non-LDS.) But for the LDS, let us work on taking the Spirit as our guide and then when we have reached the the tasty fruit of the tree, let us help those others who are on the path to come and partake.

Thank you for sharing your testimony Gad... thats amazing.


There comes a scripture to my mind

Alma 29:8

8 For behold, the Lord doth grant unto ALL nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have; therefore we see that the Lord doth counsel in wisdom, according to that which is just and true

If we believe what this scripture teaches us, every nation that has ever existed on earth had inspired teachers sent from God. They all taught and teach his words to that extend that he seeth fit that they should have... All nations... I find that extremely amazing how unlimited God's work is..

From Elder Christofferson's April conference talk.

"How does the Savior reveal His will and doctrine to prophets, seers, and revelators? He may act by messenger or in His own person. He may speak by His own voice or by the voice of the Holy Spirit—a communication of Spirit to spirit that may be expressed in words or in feelings that convey understanding beyond words (see 1 Nephi 17:45; D&C 9:8). He may direct Himself to His servants individually or acting in council (see 3 Nephi 27:1–8)."

So there you have it!

I must be really special because I haven't seen God like 3 of the posters on this thread have and I already knew that the church, it's leaders and it's membership weren't perfect. Is the information that we're living on a telestial level and not a terrestrial level supposed to revelatory? Doesn't everybody already know this?

I'm a really simple guy Amonhi. Would it be possible to state what the point of this thread is in one sentence?

durangout wrote:I must be really special because I haven't seen God like 3 of the posters on this thread have and I already knew that the church, it's leaders and it's membership weren't perfect. Is the information that we're living on a telestial level and not a terrestrial level supposed to revelatory? Doesn't everybody already know this?

I'm a really simple guy Amonhi. Would it be possible to state what the point of this thread is in one sentence?

Your comment reminds me of priesthood a couple of weeks ago. I testified of an experience that I had, and that if a shmuck like me could have spiritual experiences then I was sure they were available to everyone. One other brother shared a similar experience. then one guy said that he had never had any special spiritual experiences. And then someone else said neither had they, and it was probably because God knew that they didn't NEED such an experience (the clear implication was I'm better than you for NOT having that kind of experience.)

The sad thing was, I know that everyone in my quorum knows I am a shmuck. I certainly wasn't implying superiority because of an experience with whcih I had been blessed. But I can see why sharing such things is advised against, people can get pretty bitter and angry about it. I guess that is where the mockery and ridicule come from.

I'll admit, even witht he things that I have experienced, when I see others claiming much greater ones, it makes me skeptical sometimes. (funny that I never feel that way about anyone that has had the same or "less profound" experiences...)

Lol, maybe I am projecting

durangout wrote:I must be really special because I haven't seen God like 3 of the posters on this thread have and I already knew that the church, it's leaders and it's membership weren't perfect. Is the information that we're living on a telestial level and not a terrestrial level supposed to revelatory? Doesn't everybody already know this?

I'm a really simple guy Amonhi. Would it be possible to state what the point of this thread is in one sentence?

It's not just that the church is lacking the fullness of the priesthood, it's that we too often feel content to remain there, with the lesser law, the lesser portion of the word, the preparatory Gospel of repentance and baptism. Remember, this lesser priesthood was given to us in the Lord's wrath.

You may well understand that we as a church were rejected by the Lord as it states in D&C 124, but I'm sure many others are not. Just because someone lays their hands on your head and confers the Melchizidek priesthood on you, does not make that higher priesthood become operative in your life. This priesthood is conferred by the Lord, by His own voice out of the heavens. (D&C 84, and JST Gen 14)

This greater priesthood is available to anyone who hearkens to the voice of the Spirit. When we receive this priesthood, the heavens open and we behold the mysteries of God. Clearly, as OI stated, sharing these experiences still invites anger at church. This indicates a very hard hearted mindset of the Saints. We need to repent and come to Christ with full purpose of heart. It will not go well with us if we do not fully turn our hearts to the Lord.

laronius wrote:The issue I take when someone starts to pursue this arguement is the straw man they set up in order to make their point, and that is that somehow the leaders of the Church have ever said or implied anything but "seek to gain a witness for yourself," when from the beginning that is all they have said.

There are currently 2 opposing doctrines floating around in the church. They are both taught by the leaders of the church and the members of the church. People don't realize they are opposing doctrines and in one breath a person/leader will say, "You need to get your own revelation and know for yourself by the spirit" and in another breath they will say, "Follow your leaders even if you disagree with them and even if your own personal revelation tells you otherwise." As a case in point, I will refer to the recent "Teachings of the Living Prophets - Wilford Woodruff" manual that we used a few years back. This quote was taken from the chapter, "Chapter 19: Following the Living Prophet":

It is necessary that all the members of the Church should exercise their powers of reason and reflection, and thoroughly understand why they take the course which God points out. Intelligent obedience on the part of His Saints is desired by our Father in Heaven. He has given us our agency to think and act for ourselves, on our own volition, to obtain a testimony for ourselves from Him concerning the truth of the principles which He teaches, and then be firm and unshaken in the performance of all which is necessary for salvation.19

This quote certainly supports personal revelation to know the Lords will for ourselves. This means that we are trusting in the Lord above all others. We are trusting in our own connection to God. This is one doctrine taught.

In the same chapter he teaches the other doctrine that is in direct opposition to this one:

Now whatever I might have obtained in the shape of learning, by searching and study respecting the arts and sciences of men, whatever principles I may have imbibed during my scientific researches, yet if the prophet of God should tell me that a certain principle, or theory which I might have learned was not true, I do not care what my ideas might have been, I should consider it my duty, at the suggestion of my file leader to abandon that principle or theory. …

So, in contradiction to the first quote, he tells us that our own personal search for truth, intelligence, learning and no matter what we have gained, (even by way of personal revelation and spiritual witness), we should abandon the principle at the suggestion of our file leader. This means that personal revelation is irrelevant. Because the end result is that we believe and follow our file leader regardless of our personal revelation, so why bother. In addition, most people are afraid to get their own revelation for fear that it would contradict their leaders and they would be put in a pickle and have to choose whether they follow their own revelation or the dictates of their leaders. (I have had to make that choice many times.)

I say conflicting principles because we can't follow God and man. At some point we must value one above the other because personal revelation can and does conflict with our leaders up to and including the prophet. When those conflicts come, we either trust in the arm of flesh/our leaders or we trust in the spirit/God. There is doctrine supporting both and people will choose one or the other and believe it strongly.

In another paragraph in the same chapter, he presents both conflicting principles back to back is the following:

It is our privilege so to live as to have the Spirit of God to bear record of the truth of any revelation that comes from God through the mouth of His prophet who leads His people, and it has ever been a key with me that when the prophet who leads presents a doctrine or principle or says “thus saith the Lord” I make it a point to receive it even if it comes in contact with my tradition or views, being well satisfied that the Lord would reveal the truth unto His prophet whom He has called to lead His Church before He would unto me. And the word of the Lord through the prophet is the end of the Law unto me.20

In this one paragraph we see both sides of the coin. It is our right to receive personal revelation and know for ourselves that what the prophet and leaders teach is true but in the same breath we are told that if we attempt to exercise that right and receive by the spirit a witness and that witness comes back false, then we loose the right to personal revelation and are expected to accept what the prophet says as if God had said it himself. This in essence makes the prophet our Holy Ghost. It places the prophet on a level higher than the Holy Ghost and witness of God in our lives.

Here are a few more "Follow the prophet above your own revelation" quotes from the same chapter:

I want to say to my brethren and sisters that [the President of the Church] is our leader, he is our law-giver in the Church and Kingdom of God. He is called to this office; it is his prerogative to tell this people what to do, and it is our duty to obey the counsel that he has given to-day to the sisters and the brethren. We, as a people, should not treat lightly this counsel, for I will tell you in the name of the Lord, and I have watched it from the time I became a member of this Church, there is no man who undertakes to run counter to the counsel of the legally authorized leader of this people that ever prospers, and no such man ever will prosper.21
...
With regard to crossing the path of any man who may be appointed to lead us, I will say we never should do it, and I do not care what our feelings and views may be upon the subject as far as our traditions and education are concerned.

If God has anything to reveal, he will reveal it to that man who stands at the head. … There is no other plan, no other system by which to guide and govern men in this kingdom, only that which has been established by the revelations of God in the order of His church and kingdom, and that is for the head to lead, counsel and govern in all dispensations in which the will of God is revealed to man.22
- Chapter 19: Following the Living Prophet, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Wilford Woodruff, (2011), 195–204

This last paragraph is flawed in that we are told over and over that we can learn anything whether is has already been revealed or not. I know that we can because I myself have had many revelations not currently revealed to either the large body of the church or the church as a whole. Many times I learn something and years later someone will confirm it. (I know that I am not the only one to experience this.) Our progress is not dependent on the progress of others, even the highest leaders of the church. And the leadership of the Church are not called because they are the most holy or perfect or the most knowledgeable or spiritual. Just like local Bishops and Stake Presidents are not called because they are the most spiritual or righteous or knowledgeable, etc. Our leaders are called for all sorts of reasons, and sometimes it is for their own growth and development. We do not always know why they are called. Look at Judas Iscariot who betrayed Christ and committed suicide. He was called to be an apostle. Who can say why the Lord chose him when other apostles like Peter were willing to die for Christ?

It takes all sorts. Just because we disagree with something they say or do does not mean that we don't sustain them or that they were not called or that we hate the church or that we lack faith, etc. It means that we have our eyes opened and are not blinded by the honors of men.

If someone believes they can follow their leaders without the Spirit, they simply don't understand the doctrine as our leaders have taught it. The brethren are not perfect, nor have they ever implied they were, EXCEPT when speaking under the influence of the Spirit, which can be said about any of us.

I agree. I am reminded of when Joseph Smith started teaching about the "Gathering of the Saints" and the well intention-ed, over zealous and un-inspired members began teaching people to leave their families and come gather. They caused more damage than good and Joseph Rebuked them and had to reteach them. The more inspired we are, the less likely this is to happen... Here is the account recorded in, "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith"

After having ascertained the very spot, and having the happiness of seeing quite a number of the families of my brethren comfortably situated upon the land, I took leave of them and journeyed back to Ohio, and used every influence and argument that lay in my power to get those who believed in the everlasting covenant, whose circumstances would admit, and whose families were willing to remove to the place which I had designated to be the land of Zion; and thus the sound of the gathering, and of the doctrine, went abroad into the world; and many, having a zeal not according to knowledge, and not understanding the pure principles of the doctrine of the Church, have, no doubt, in the heat of enthusiasm, taught and said many things which are derogatory to the genuine character and principles of the Church; and for these things we are heartily sorry, and would apologize, if apology would do any good.

But we pause here, and offer a remark upon the saying which we learn has gone abroad, and has been handled in a manner detrimental to the cause of truth, by saying, "that in preaching the doctrine of gathering, we break up families, and give license for men to leave their families, women their husbands, children their parents and slaves their masters, thereby deranging the order and breaking up the harmony and peace of society." We shall here show our faith, and thereby, misrepresentations, which have caused, we have every reason to believe, thousands to think they were doing God's service, when they were persecuting the children of God; whereas, if they could have enjoyed the true light, and had a just understanding of our principles, they would have embraced them with all their hearts, and been rejoicing in the love of the truth. And now to show our doctrine on this subject, we shall commence with the first principles of the Gospel, which are faith, repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands. This we believe to be our duty--to teach to all mankind the doctrine of repentance, which we shall endeavor to show from the following quotations: - Principles of the Gospel, Section Two 1834-37, p.80

This is what can and does happen all the time by obeying leaders without personal revelation first. We go about thinking we are doing God's will and end up acting in ways "detrimental to the cause of truth". This is common and causes many today to unknowingly hurt others in the name of God and the church.

There are other points in Amonhi's posts that I don't agree with (such as who has and hasn't seen Christ and the influence of the Holy Ghost vs seeing Christ) but that's not the main issue being discussed.

It isn't the main point, but I would love to be corrected rather than continuing to think and tell others that these prophets did not have firsthand witnesses of Christ when in fact they actually did.

Those who stand at the head of the Church hold the keys to revelation for the Church. It is a dangerous path we pursue when we seek to cast doubt on that authority in order to make a point about personal revelation. There are betters ways of doing so. For instance, I would rather tell someone that without a personal witness, even the words of Christ himself would not be sufficient to maintain our faith.

You make a good point about the words of Christ not being able to maintain our faith without personal revelation. I am sure there are also other ways to teach the same principles.

I hope that my words do not cast doubt on the power of leaders as they have power in their positions as long as others support them in that position regardless of whether God gives them authority. This is really what most people fear will be lost or degraded by seeing the flaws of men in the spiritual leaders of Churches, ours included. Power to direct, control, maintain order comes from the honor/support we give them. (That is where God get's his power, and that is where man must get his, even in the priesthood.)

And regarding authority, A person either has it or doesn't. That is God's decision. Casting doubt on authority does nothing. God authorizes a person to act for Him by granting them the Holy Ghost. While they have the Holy Ghost, they are authorized to do whatever the Holy Ghost guides them to do. It grants authority from God regardless of whether people honor them and thereby give them power and influence in their lives. Power and influence should and truly only can come and be maintained by persuasion.

If our leaders are not able to maintain power and influence by persuasion, then they don't deserve it. They don't deserve it because they don't keep the oath and covenant of the priesthood by which all power and influence ought to be maintained. In addition, if they are maintaining power and influence by persuasion which uses the immoral means of hiding truth which contradicts with their views, cover their sins or short comings to gratify their ego, or move forward their own ambitions, or to exercise control, dominion, power or compulsion over others in any degree of unrighteousness, then the spirit that gave them authority withdraws and they are left to themselves to rely on the power they can muster by the honor they have earned from the children of men.

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
...
41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;

42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121:37-42

Gad wrote:I normally don't get to share this, but I feel inspired to say that revelation and all these scriptural gifts are currently available to all those who seek after them. I have been in the presence of the Christ and the Father. They love you and want you to come to them.

I have had an angel teach me the hard truths about our condition as a people. Speaking the truth may be hard, but it is not evil speaking to declare it. The LDS church is full of wheat and tares from the very top to the very bottom. But the Lord wants us to repent. Just because there are tares doesn't mean there is no wheat. Just because there is wheat doesn't mean there are no tares.

The invitation that was extended to me was to repent and then to help others to repent. I strongly feel that we need to be examples of faith while retaining our membership in the church. So for those of us who are in the church, we are called to repent and then remain in the church. (But we should never be confused as to God's power, He can and does work among all nations and peoples, including non-LDS.) But for the LDS, let us work on taking the Spirit as our guide and then when we have reached the the tasty fruit of the tree, let us help those others who are on the path to come and partake.

:ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause:
Thank you for being so bold! For your witness of Christ and call to repentance!

The prophets are coming from the woodwork to call us to repentance just as they did anciently. Lehi was an ancient prophet called from the woodwork of obscurity, as was Samuel the Lamanite as IS GAD the prophet. I hear your words Gad and know they are true. Thank you for sharing them...

Amonhi

laronius wrote:In terms of his position as Prophet, Seer and Revelator, he has a unique "connection" to the Lord in directing the affairs of the church, but as an individual, he had no special access to the Lord than what we all have based upon on our faithfulness. Therefore, in terms of where the Church is heading, it is not our job to steady the ark, but in terms of where our own lives are going (and those for whom we have stewardship) we have the responsibility to seek revelation.

I agree, and didn't want anyone to think otherwise. Sometimes that doesn't come across well in my words.

durangout wrote:I must be really special because I haven't seen God like 3 of the posters on this thread have and I already knew that the church, it's leaders and it's membership weren't perfect. Is the information that we're living on a telestial level and not a terrestrial level supposed to revelatory? Doesn't everybody already know this?

I'm a really simple guy Amonhi. Would it be possible to state what the point of this thread is in one sentence?

=)) ) =))
Oh my, uh, I don't think I can... lol, I...am...uh... speechless.

Maybe - The Lord leads the church by the holy Ghost, (if we let Him), in exactly the same way he leads our daily lives by the Holy Ghost if we let Him.

Original_Intent wrote:

durangout wrote:And then someone else said neither had they, and it was probably because God knew that they didn't NEED such an experience (the clear implication was I'm better than you for NOT having that kind of experience.)

) =)) The funny thing is that "Signs follow those who believe" which means belief comes first and signs are not required proofs necessary to believe first but rather acknowledgements of your beliefs. =)) Just a passing thought. This doesn't mean that those who don't have such experiences DON'T believe, it is my opinion that they have not risked serious personal and spiritual damage to test those beliefs. (For example, would you leave the church if you found out it want's true? I would any day. Prayers of Consequence are answered far more powerfully than prayers of no consequence. You need to risk something like your testimony if you want to gain something like a true and powerful testimony. Lay your spiritual hopes and dreams on the alter and sacrifice them for the sake of truth. Then you'll start getting answers! Big ones!)

The sad thing was, I know that everyone in my quorum knows I am a shmuck. I certainly wasn't implying superiority because of an experience with whcih I had been blessed. But I can see why sharing such things is advised against, people can get pretty bitter and angry about it. I guess that is where the mockery and ridicule come from.

Yes indeed. But, if you can stand it, you will help more people by sharing against the persecution, and you'll get think skin which helps when they through you in the fires.

I'll admit, even witht he things that I have experienced, when I see others claiming much greater ones, it makes me skeptical sometimes. (funny that I never feel that way about anyone that has had the same or "less profound" experiences...)

What a great observation. Thanks for sharing, as I have caught myself feeling the same on some occasions. )

Peace and Love,
Amonhi

Lone Star Patriot, as always your words are profound and enlightening. Thank you!

Amonhi

Lone Star Patriot wrote:It's not just that the church is lacking the fullness of the priesthood, it's that we too often feel content to remain there, with the lesser law, the lesser portion of the word, the preparatory Gospel of repentance and baptism. Remember, this lesser priesthood was given to us in the Lord's wrath.

You may well understand that we as a church were rejected by the Lord as it states in D&C 124, but I'm sure many others are not. Just because someone lays their hands on your head and confers the Melchizidek priesthood on you, does not make that higher priesthood become operative in your life. This priesthood is conferred by the Lord, by His own voice out of the heavens. (D&C 84, and JST Gen 14)

This greater priesthood is available to anyone who hearkens to the voice of the Spirit. When we receive this priesthood, the heavens open and we behold the mysteries of God. Clearly, as OI stated, sharing these experiences still invites anger at church. This indicates a very hard hearted mindset of the Saints. We need to repent and come to Christ with full purpose of heart. It will not go well with us if we do not fully turn our hearts to the Lord.