LDS Freedom Forum

Barney Fife wrote:Wow, what an awesome thread! Thanks to all who've posted so far, particularly Amonhi for sharing a portion of his sacred experiences.

These two contradictory directions (trust in God vs. follow the prophet) really have me concerned.

I believe it's critically necessary, right here, right now, for us to make the right decisions regarding this very real contradiction. There are powerful forces at work now, and I can testify to you brothers and sisters that it's going to get harder and harder to do the right thing. In fact, I dare say that some correct decisions may involve "going against the grain".

I quote Pres. Heber C. Kimball:

"After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage." (I think we can check this off as having been fulfilled).

"Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do...the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes."

"the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God."

"Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?" (Statement by Heber C. Kimball in Whitney, Orson F. Life of Heber C. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1979. 449-451)

It seems according to this statement that the coming "test" will involve intense persecution that will try the integrity even among the best of us. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this persecution may come from other church members.

How can you pass this test? You must possess a testimony based on a personal knowledge or witness that Jesus is the Christ. You can obtain this testimony by living right and calling upon the Lord (see D&C 93:1) and cease not until you obtain it.

That's why what I said in my opening sentence is so meaningful to me: I'm grateful for those who are sharing a portion of their sacred experiences and testifying that yes, we can obtain such a testimony. I'm even more grateful to the Lord who's orchestrating these wonderful experiences.

Because with what's coming, we'll need them.

I don't disagree at all. I was struck this morning that properly following the prophet is not unlike the covenant Eve is put under to follow Adam AS HE FOLLOWS FATHER.

I do believe that a very fine balance needs to be struck. On the one hand we ABSOLUTLEY need to pursue our own revelation, our own relationship with Christ and Father, and grow spiritually to the fullest extent possible. On the other hand, we need to sustain, support and uphold the prophet, and yes, FOLLOW him as he follows Father. The argument against is that we should simply follow Christ. Unless we are claiming to be ahead of the prophet, it is largely a semantic argument. Certainly our focus should be on Christ, but if the prophet is fulfilling his calling, He should be a valuable ally and leader in how to go about that.

There is so much that the prophet simply CANNOT give us regarding our day to day responsiblities and require personal revelation. But we should still be humble enough to try to follow the prophet and support him in his office. This isn;t easy, just as it isn't easy for many modern-day Eves to support the leadership role of her husband. Does that mean women are under the thumbs of husbands? No. Does it mean women should not with all energy be pursuing their own progression, and the development of their children? No. But it does mean that as the husband righteously exercises priesthood authority and tries to lead the family, that the wife needs to SUPPORT rather than insisting on a power struggle that should not be necessary. Likewise there should be no "power-struggle" between following our personal revelation or following the prophet. We should yoke ourselves beside the prophet and work with him towards the goal, not promote ourselves for the sake of putting ourselves forward as a light.

Not saying you or anyone in particular is doing this. just thinking out loud as to what came to mind as I read your post.

swiftbrook wrote:Tzone said:

"That so many good saints will go to the celestial kingdom even if they don't have a 1st hand witness of Christ is just one"

Thoughts on this? From what I have learned thru the spirit and from d&c 76 I believe one must see Christ in mortality to be received into the Celestial kingdom.

This is not my understanding. You must receive your C&E prior to going to the CK, but that can happen as spirits as well.

Amonhi

The thought I find important about the ten virgins is that this parable is less written as a warning for the people of the world, it is mostly written for the people that consider themselves as the chosen people of God.

The ten virgins are those that expect the bridgegroom. They have dressed up with a garment and look foreward to the meeting. They know that he will come. It's talking about us.

How important to be prepared.

Our "light" or "oil lamp" represents our ability to light our own way.

Ok some new thoughts based off barneys post. So I was thinking we have to light our own way, we will need a testimony due to the coming persecution. But if it will try us to the very core than obviously its not even enough to get through it with your husband and spouse. It was brought up the wife should obey the husband as he obeys God. Well if the wife has a testimony and they go through the trials together technically speaking the wife could "believe on others" or his husband and follow him know as he is following the Lord. In every persecution!

It seems there is a bigger trial than just that. It may be slightly different for everyone but I have a strange feeling itll revolve around "a land of martydom" as amulek tried to save all the righteous but couldn't who believed in the "bible". Whether after the test some will be saved by fire (either literally or beyond the veil) or not.

Can, therefore, the gift to KNOW that Jesus is the son of God also be given to nonmembers ?

Technically speaking just like the be attitudes they are given ONLY to members of the gospel. Does that mean others outside the gospel cannot possess a be attidude, or a gift of a spirit? I would think they can but only on a temporally basis. Otherwards only when there is a specific purpose to do so by the Lord. But after the HG is received they can perfect it and have it in "abundance".

Why is the be attitudes and gifts for the saints primarily anways?

3Nephi 12:1 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words unto Nephi, and to those who had been called, (now the number of them who had been called, and received power and authority to baptize, was twelve) and behold, he stretched forth his hand unto the multitude, and cried unto them, saying: Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost; therefore blessed are ye if ye shall believe in me and be baptized, after that ye have seen me and know that I am.

2 And again, more blessed are they who shall believe in your words because that ye shall testify that ye have seen me, and that ye know that I am. Yea, blessed are they who shall believe in your words, and come down into the depths of humility and be baptized, for they shall be visited with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and shall receive a remission of their sins.

The major difference between the be attitudes in matthew and 3 nephi is this scripture. It begins blessed are those who give heed and are baptized and receive the holy ghost. Its a pre-requiste for the remaining be attitudes. Otherwards for all saints of God. Obey the commandment behind it get the blessing. However, non members can "obey" the commandment and receive a blessing as well just in a different way. These scriptures are NOT present in the matthew versions.

D&C 1

38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

There is no conflict between following a prophet and receiving your own revelation.

D&C 84
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

Seek the Truth wrote:There is no conflict between following a prophet and receiving your own revelation.

D&C 84
36 For he that receiveth my servants receiveth me;

37 And he that receiveth me receiveth my Father;

38 And he that receiveth my Father receiveth my Father’s kingdom; therefore all that my Father hath shall be given unto him.

Those are very interesting and profound verses that you quote. They have a very specific meaning that is in complete harmony with the subject of this thread. The first task is to identify exactly who those servants are. A calling in the church does not necessarily make one a servant of God. Lehi is the perfect example of this. Lehi was a true servant of Christ. Lehi received the testimony of Christ and the Father.

To receive Christ is to receive His testimony. When one receives Christ, He will then bring that individual to the Father. When you are brought before the Father, you are given all that the Father has. That is why if you turn away from it, you will not receive forgiveness in this life or the next. These scriptures mean far more than having someone simply lay their hands on your head to ordain you to the priesthood. Just because someone has laid their hands in your head to confer priesthood, does not make that priesthood become operative in your life.

We will be tried and tested and those who are able to recognize true messengers from the Father will be separated from the tares. Those who do not risk condemnation. This should be a subject to which we each devote much prayer and fasting.

And in the end, there is no conflict between following a prophet and receiving your own revelation.

Seek the Truth wrote:And in the end, there is no conflict between following a prophet and receiving your own revelation.

... unless you receive a revelation to not follow the prophet. :-\

What if The Father told you one thing and the Son something else...

Before you dismiss this IIRC this was stated by someone else with variation, when asked if they were to undergo and Abrahamic test they said they would do what the Spirit said, as if God could give you a command the Spirit would not back up...

"What if's" are of limited utility, ie the old questions like "would you tell a lie if it saved all human life on earth", ie if i say yes there then I can find more and more reasons to lie.

Simon wrote:There are two very interesting questions

1. Can anyone enter the celestial kingdom without having received the second Comforter ?
2. If so, what qualifies them to enter God's presence ?


Question One
D&C 137:7-8 I recommand the whole chapter

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

Besides children all those that WOULD HAVE received, WILL enter the celestial kingdom.


Question Two
There is a scripter that, at first sight, looks as if it would contradict D&C 137. But in truth it can give us some deeper understanding.

D&C 76:74

Those "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." shall inherit the terrestial kingdom

Looking at the differences between these two groups/scriptures will also help us understand what qualifies someone to enter the celestial kingdom. even wihtout having received the Second Comforter

Differences
- Those that inherit the terrestial are "HONORABLE men of the earth, who were BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN" D&C 76:75
- Those that inherit the celestial are "JUST men MADE PERFECT THROUGH JESUS THE MEDIATOR " D&C 76:69

- Those that inherit the terrestial, "RECEIVED not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it" D&C 76:74
- Those that inherit the celestial, "WOULD HAVE RECEIVED it if they had been permitted to tarry" D&C 137:7-8

To receive means to accept, which implies that those who enter the terrestial must have heard about the gospel, but rejected it while in the flesh.. while the celestial would have received, or accepted it with all their heart if they had just heard it.

The "honorable men" allowed themselve to get blinded by other men, while the "just men" allowed themselves to get perfected through Jesus Christ.

Those that have not received Christ, or the Gospel while in the flesh, are "Just men not yet perfected through Jesus Christ".. but it's a promise given to them once they have received him

In the end, God "will judge all men according to their works, according to the DESIRE OF THEIR HEARTS" D&C 137:9



Such knowledge should strenghten our testimony of how loving, forgiving and merciful our Saviour is, it should strenghten our desire to come unto him. But it should not sternghten our testimony about ourselves. Feeling too save will keep us from salvation in the Fathers Kingdom, unless such savety comes from the Lord himselfe.

The whole purpouse of the Second Comforter is to give comfort, this includes the knowledge that we have earned eternal life. Mayby eternal life can be attained witout receiveing the Second Comforter while in the flesh, but why stay in uncertainty when he offers us a sure word ? No matter where we stand, we should always strive for receiving the Second Comforter.. it is the only way to know while in this life.

Thank you, that makes sense.

I posted this on another thread, but I think it applies here. A good friend of mine shared this with me; I'm quoting a portion of it here. (You can read the full version here: http://mldb.byu.edu/PPPRATDI.HTM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

This dialogue was published in the New York Herald on January 1, 1844. Parley P. Pratt wrote: "Visiting North Bridge, a short distance from Boston, and having a day's leisure, I wrote a dialogue entitled 'Joe Smith and the Devil,' which was afterwards published in the New York Herald, and in various papers in America and Europe. It was finally published and republished in pamphlet form, and had a wide circulation; few persons knowing or mistrusting who was the author."

[2] Smith: Good morning, Mr. Devil. How now, you seem to be much engaged; what news have you got there?

[3] Devil: [Slipping his bills into his pocket with a low bow] Oh! good morning Mr. Smith; hope you are well sir. Why, I--I was just out on a little business in my line. Or, finally, to be candid I was contriving a fair and honorable warfare against you and your imposition, wherein piety is outraged and religion greatly hindered in its useful course. For, to be bold, sir--and I despise anything under-handed--I must tell you to your face that you have made more trouble than all the ministers or people of my whole dominion have for ages past.

[04] Smith: Trouble! What trouble have I caused your majesty? I certainly have endeavored to treat you and all other persons in a friendly manner, even my worst enemies, and I always aim to fulfil the Mormon Creed, and that is, to mind my own business exclusively. Why should this trouble you, Mr. Devil?

[05] Devil: Ah, your own business, indeed! I know not what you may consider your business, it is so very complicated; but I know what you have done and what you are aiming to do. You have disturbed the quiet of Christendom, overthrown churches and societies, you have dared to call into question the truth and usefulness of old and established creeds, which have stood the test of ages, and have even caused tens of thousands to come out in open rebellion, not only against wholesome creeds, established forms and doctrines, well approved and orthodox, but against some of the most pious, learned, exemplary and honorable clergy whom both myself and all the world love, honor and esteem, and this is not all. But you are causing many persons to think who never thought before and you would fain put the whole world a thinking and then where will true religion and piety be? Alas! They will have no place among men, for if men keep such a terrible thinking and reasoning as they begin to do, since you commenced your business, as you call it, they never will continue to uphold the good old way in which they have jogged along in peace for so many ages, and thus, Mr. Smith, you will overthrow my kingdom and leave me not a foot of ground on earth, and this is the very thing you aim at. But I, sir, have the boldness to oppose you by all the lawful means which I have in my power.

[06] Smith: Really, Mr. Devil, your majesty has of late become very pious. I think some of your Christian brethren have greatly misrepresented you. It is generally reported by them that you are opposed to religion. But--

[07] Devil: It is false; there is not a more religious and pious being in the world than myself, nor a being more liberal minded. I am decidedly in favor of all creeds, systems and forms of Christianity, of whatever name and nature; so long as they leave out that abominable doctrine which caused me so much trouble in former times, and which, after slumbering for ages, you have again revived; I mean the doctrine of direct communication with God, by new revelation. This is hateful, it is impious, it is directly opposed to all the divisions and branches of the Christian church; I never could bear it. And for this very cause, I helped to bring to condign punishment all the prophets and apostles of old, for while they were suffered to live with this gift of revelation, they were always exposing and slandering me, and all other good pious men in exposing our deeds and purposes, which they called wicked, but we considered as the height of zeal and piety; and when we killed them for these crimes of dreaming, prophesying, and vision-seeing they raised the cry of persecution, and so with you miserable, deluded Mormons.

What I have found unfortunate, is that other religions and sects seem to be much more open to direct communication with God, than us LDS. Many of us here on this very forum would be chastised and told that we could not have experienced the things we have by direct communication with God - because it did not go through church leadership. It seems that most LDS I know are accepting this doctrine that Satan wishes to purport.

Jules, that has certainly not been my experience. In my experience people get concerned over the following.

1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

Really these verses are rich with Doctrine and understanding. Keep in mind Brother Cowdery is being directly addressed by the Lord's own voice, meaning this is not a lowly levite deacon, this is someone who has indeed pierced the veil; in fact not even a year earlier he had been ministered unto by an angel, and yet still he had been deceived by Hiram Page (who in fairness was not a deceiver but was also deceived). A man visited by angels, deceived.

So he instructed that:

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations
2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph, as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)
3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter
4) He shall not command Joseph
5) It shal be so until another is appointed in his stead

Slight rewording for grammar, feel free to use your own words, point being it could be helpful to identify various points.

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand.

3 And this ye shall know assuredly—that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me.

4 But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.

5 And this shall be a law unto you, that ye receive not the teachings of any that shall come before you as revelations or commandments;

6 And this I give unto you that you may not be deceived, that you may know they are not of me.

7 For verily I say unto you, that he that is ordained of me shall come in at the gate and be ordained as I have told you before, to teach those revelations which you have received and shall receive through him whom I have appointed.

8 And now, behold, I give unto you a commandment, that when ye are assembled together ye shall instruct and edify each other, that ye may know how to act and direct my church, how to act upon the points of my law and commandments, which I have given.

9 And thus ye shall become instructed in the law of my church, and be sanctified by that which ye have received, and ye shall bind yourselves to act in all holiness before me—

Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

It seem like a confirmation of the earlier revelations, given 3 times.

So 3 times by the voice of the Lord and by the voice of the Prophet Joseph Smith a fairly clear picture is painted. Now, Joseph Smith taught that all may receive unlimited revelation for themselves, and may use revelation according to their office or calling, and there are many other statements on revelation, I only ask that we include these 3 in the discussion, because they are important.

In the end all blessings and warnings depend on the law upon which they are predicated. If the church stands blameless before God all this warnings are in full power, unless the lord himselfe has given revelations on the last days aswell as on the standing of the church before him which tells us otherwise. Is Nephi just talking about all other churches or is he talking about ALL churches? I think noone of us is called to steady the ark, but each of us is called to steady ourselves before the lord. We are called to seek after him and to follow his counsil. If, and just if the church has truely gone astray, the lord will call the small and weak to call the church unto repentance. Its not our decision, but the Lords, how to proceed. If this is the Lords way, there also will be counterfeits.

.

This is a great thread. Thanks to all who contributed.

Hi all, I am just stopping by for a quick visit...

Seek the Truth wrote:Jules, that has certainly not been my experience. In my experience people get concerned over the following.

1 Behold, I say unto thee, Oliver, that it shall be given unto thee that thou shalt be heard by the church in all things whatsoever thou shalt teach them by the Comforter, concerning the revelations and commandments which I have given.

Notice that Oliver IS authorized to teach and the church is instructed to hear ALL THINGS whatsoever he teaches them BY THE COMFORTER concerning revelations AND Commandments. So, Oliver is given to teach revelations and Commandments if he teaches them by the comforter or spirit. This means he is following the same edict given to simple missionaries who are authorized to speak for and on behalf of the Lord which happens only when and every time they speak by the spirit...

D&C 68:4 - And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.

Amazing that even missionaries speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost are speaking for God. So too Oliver speaks the voice of the Lord, scripture, the will of the Lord and the power of God to salvation when he speaks by the comforter or Holy Ghost.

So what then is Oliver being corrected on? Well, look at the chapter heading which is an uninspired yet semi accurate account of what was happening:

Hiram Page, a member of the Church, had a certain stone and professed to be receiving revelations by its aid concerning the upbuilding of Zion and the order of the Church.

Oliver was buying into Hyrum Pages Claim to authority to lead the church and order the church. That is the calling of the President of the Church, just like a Bishop is called to lead his ward and fulfill his calling by revelation. It is wrong for someone to say, I have revelation for the ward and what programs the ward needs to sponsor. Let those who are in their calling serve in that calling. But that does not mean that revelation regarding truth, the mysteries or God are not received and even taught by anyone whom God sees fit as directed by the Holy Ghost. Truth is truth and we are not held back in our ability to receive it by others who are not prepared yet. The prophet only reveals things which the weaker members of the church are ready for, or capable of receiving. But he is taught far more and lives far more, and so can we...

Notice that the quote you provided is aimed at the "order of the church" as being the revelation which the prophet receives sole instruction for, and not truth in general...

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

hehehe, this (above) reminded me of this (below)...

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! - Num. 11:27-28

Notice in your quote above that only the prophet is able to receive commandments and revelations "IN THIS CHURCH" meaning for the church as a church. For example, the prophet is in the position to lead the church and make decisions for his calling and you nor I nor anyone else has the right or act in his stewardship which is to act in the role of President of the church. And Conversely, he as the prophet/president of the church doesn't have the right to receive revelation for my stewardship as a Bishop or Stake president or whatever calling the Lord called me to serve. But does that mean that there is no revelation except that it comes through the prophet. Our history and scriptures are chalk full of examples of revelation and doctrine being received by the lay members, women, children, etc...

Notice the rest of your quote and how much it focuses on the prophet receiving revelation for the church specifically... as a whole under his stewardship and not revelation in general about truth, but about directing the church and the affairs of the church.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not write by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

Here some corrections in your list, according to my understanding...

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations

for the church or regarding the ORDER of the Church,

2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph,

to the church,

as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)

Ok, ummm, Blasphemy is defined as removing God from His rightful place in our lives and placing a man in His stead to be God for us. A prophet is to lead us to God, not to himself. We listen to the prophets who tell us about things we haven't experienced and then try to experience them for ourselves. Personal revelation is essential to the plan. Obedience to man is damning. We listen to the prophets who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost and fell the holy Ghost witness to us. When we feel the Holy Ghost, we know the prophets have spoke for God, (just like a missionary speaking by the power of the Holy ghost). Then we obey the Holy Ghost who IS the voice of God speaking to our souls. So we are not following man, or position, but we are following the Holy ghost and in this way the Holy Ghost teaches us ALL THINGS what we should do and what we should believe. Whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same because it is given by the Holy Ghost which is my voice.

Even when the prophet directs he church, we support the prophet in his calling by letting him declare and organize and do as he will according to his revelation and his best efforts. Then we get our own revelations to how or if we should participate in the programs and efforts the church is undertaking as directed by the prophet/president.

3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter

If he is speaking by the comforter, then it is the voice of the Lord, the will of the Lord, scripture and the power of God unto salvation. The only way to know if it is by the comforter is that it will be carried by the same spirit into your own heart and you will feel it by the comforter and know for yourself it is the word of God. The same actually holds true of the prophet who is also obligated to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost before it is binding on us. But even without the power of the holy GHost, he can lead and organize the church and we have no say over his calling.

4) He shall not command Joseph

Unless the Holy Ghost were to say so. The Holy Ghost is a higher authority than even the prophet. Remember that the courts of the church are also over the president of the church and there is no one who is exempt from these courts, the prophet included.

5) It shal be so until another is appointed in his stead

yes, just like every calling in the church...

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand....

Again, take a look at the uninspired heading...

At this time some members of the Church were disturbed by people making false claims as revelators. The Prophet inquired of the Lord and received this communication addressed to the elders of the Church. The first part deals with matters of Church polity;

You happened to have quoted the first part exactly which deals with Church policy. The prophet is called to declare current church policy, current Church doctrine and Current church commandments. The problem is that Current church policy, doctrine and commandments change over time based on a number of things including how prepared the people are to live them. This means that Current church doctrine is not true doctrine or eternal doctrine. Nor are current church commandments true or eternal or even binding on those who are prepared to live higher doctrines according to their own progression. For example, we are told that we are given a doctrine that is binding until the Savior appears to us and that after he appears to us we are to do what he tells us to do.

2 Nephi 32:6 - Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

That is certainly the case except when directed by the Holy Ghost which as Nephi pointed out gives authority...

1 Nephi 10:22 - And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

...just as it gave Lehi authority when he had none through the church...

7 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the awords of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a bvision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the cMessiah who should come—I, Nephi, was ddesirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the eHoly Ghost, which is the fgift of God unto gall those who diligently seek him, as well in times of hold as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.

But, that doesn't mean that Lehi tried to go tell teh Leaders of the church how to organize the Church. Even Christ didn't go tell the leaders of the Church how to organize the church. That wasn't his calling or authority. But he certainly had revelations and the spirit and taught with power from God regarding truth. If anyone could have a right to usurp the authority of the Church, it was Christ. But he showed us exactly how we should be. Let the leaders of the church lead the church. We are to teach by the power of the Holy Ghost as directed by the Holy Ghost and not our own whims or ambitions, always pointing to God and never to ourselves, just as all the ancient prophets have done. And just as Amos taught,

Amos 3:7 - Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he brevealeth his csecret unto his servants the dprophets.

How are those prophets called? The same way Amos himself was called...

Amos 7:14 - Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no aprophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:

15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the aLord said unto me, bGo, cprophesy unto my people Israel.

And as Amos, we are not called to take over the church and reorganize it and create policies, That is the Prophet/President's calling...

A Random Phrase wrote:Thank you for this thread, Amonhi. And thank you (Amonhi), OI, and Gad for your testimonies of your experiences.

Yes, I esteem all four of you as true messengers who speak by and through the HG. Great thread.

Gad wrote:I normally don't get to share this, but I feel inspired to say that revelation and all these scriptural gifts are currently available to all those who seek after them. I have been in the presence of the Christ and the Father. They love you and want you to come to them.

I have had an angel teach me the hard truths about our condition as a people. Speaking the truth may be hard, but it is not evil speaking to declare it. The LDS church is full of wheat and tares from the very top to the very bottom. But the Lord wants us to repent. Just because there are tares doesn't mean there is no wheat. Just because there is wheat doesn't mean there are no tares.

The invitation that was extended to me was to repent and then to help others to repent. I strongly feel that we need to be examples of faith while retaining our membership in the church. So for those of us who are in the church, we are called to repent and then remain in the church. (But we should never be confused as to God's power, He can and does work among all nations and peoples, including non-LDS.) But for the LDS, let us work on taking the Spirit as our guide and then when we have reached the the tasty fruit of the tree, let us help those others who are on the path to come and partake.

Excellent point, Gad. You have always been spot on in your analysis as I see it.

Amonhi wrote: Notice that Oliver IS authorized to teach and the church is instructed to hear ALL THINGS whatsoever he teaches them BY THE COMFORTER concerning revelations AND Commandments.

That's correct, teach, not reveal.

So, Oliver is given to teach revelations and Commandments if he teaches them by the comforter or spirit.

Teach, not reveal.

This means he is following the same edict given to simple missionaries who are authorized to speak for and on behalf of the Lord which happens only when and every time they speak by the spirit...

That's right. Even simple primary teachers have this ability. I've experienced it myself.

Amazing that even missionaries speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost are speaking for God.

Indeed. Even primary teachers.

So too Oliver speaks the voice of the Lord, scripture, the will of the Lord and the power of God to salvation when he speaks by the comforter or Holy Ghost.

Well this hangs on the meaning of the word scripture, which has different meanings in different circumstances, much like the word Israel or Church. Several possible meanings of the word. Perhaps a subject for another time.

So what then is Oliver being corrected on? Well, look at the chapter heading which is an uninspired yet semi accurate account of what was happening:

Hiram Page, a member of the Church, had a certain stone and professed to be receiving revelations by its aid concerning the upbuilding of Zion and the order of the Church.

Oliver was buying into Hyrum Pages Claim to authority to lead the church and order the church. That is the calling of the President of the Church, just like a Bishop is called to lead his ward and fulfill his calling by revelation.

No such qualification is in the text. The more verses you add the more general it becomes when you add both sections, 43 and 28.

It is wrong for someone to say, I have revelation for the ward and what programs the ward needs to sponsor. Let those who are in their calling serve in that calling. But that does not mean that revelation regarding truth, the mysteries or God are not received and even taught by anyone whom God sees fit as directed by the Holy Ghost. Truth is truth and we are not held back in our ability to receive it by others who are not prepared yet.

We are held back in what we can share. And whatever it may be isn't binding on anyone else if it hasn't come through authorized channels.

The prophet only reveals things which the weaker members of the church are ready for, or capable of receiving.

Certainly not. Teachings modern and ancient have often been met with murmuring all the way to murderous rage by all levels of the Church.

But he is taught far more and lives far more, and so can we...

Notice that the quote you provided is aimed at the "order of the church" as being the revelation which the prophet receives sole instruction for, and not truth in general...

2 But, behold, verily, verily, I say unto thee, no one shall be appointed to receive commandments and revelations in this church excepting my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., for he receiveth them even as Moses.

hehehe, this (above) reminded me of this (below)...

27 And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.

28 And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them! - Num. 11:27-28

What's always interested me about this verse is that Moses is speaking rhetorically. He doesn't actually say all people can receive revelation for all people. It sounds like he's exasperated at the end of a long day.

Notice in your quote above that only the prophet is able to receive commandments and revelations "IN THIS CHURCH" meaning for the church as a church. For example, the prophet is in the position to lead the church and make decisions for his calling and you nor I nor anyone else has the right or act in his stewardship which is to act in the role of President of the church.

And Conversely, he as the prophet/president of the church doesn't have the right to receive revelation for my stewardship as a Bishop or Stake president or whatever calling the Lord called me to serve. But does that mean that there is no revelation except that it comes through the prophet. Our history and scriptures are chalk full of examples of revelation and doctrine being received by the lay members, women, children, etc...

Certainly. Anyone can receive any revelation for themselves. It simply isn't binding on anyone else, and often shouldn't be shared.

Notice the rest of your quote and how much it focuses on the prophet receiving revelation for the church specifically... as a whole under his stewardship and not revelation in general about truth,

It was certainly revelation in general. See section 43:5

but about directing the church and the affairs of the church.

It was certainly not limited to that, or he would have said so. For example, if I publish a revelation about what happens to hermaphrodites in the resurrection, well, that job was not given to me. Thankfully.

3 And thou shalt be obedient unto the things which I shall give unto him, even as Aaron, to declare faithfully the commandments and the revelations, with power and authority unto the church.

4 And if thou art led at any time by the Comforter to speak or teach, or at all times by the way of commandment unto the church, thou mayest do it.

5 But thou shalt not writ-e by way of commandment, but by wisdom;

6 And thou shalt not command him who is at thy head, and at the head of the church;

7 For I have given him the keys of the mysteries, and the revelations which are sealed, until I shall appoint unto them another in his stead.

Here some corrections in your list, according to my understanding...

1) Only Joseph can receive commandments and revelations

for the church or regarding the ORDER of the Church,

2) He is to be obedient to the commands given through Joseph,

to the church,

I see. Both section 24 and section 43 jsut make reference to revelation, without qualification, on plain reading.

as Aaron was to Moses (IIRC the language is Moses was a god to Aaron)

Ok, ummm, Blasphemy is defined as removing God from His rightful place in our lives and placing a man in His stead to be God for us. A prophet is to lead us to God, not to himself. We listen to the prophets who tell us about things we haven't experienced and then try to experience them for ourselves. Personal revelation is essential to the plan. Obedience to man is damning.

Joseph Smith said that the Jews were to be obedient to John the Baptist or be damned. TPJS pg 276

That language that Moses was a God to Aaron is in the Bible and Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, it's not my language. Joseph Smith referred to these prophets as Gods he had reverence for (TPJS pg 375, Ex 4:16, 7:1)

We listen to the prophets who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost and fell the holy Ghost witness to us. When we feel the Holy Ghost, we know the prophets have spoke for God, (just like a missionary speaking by the power of the Holy ghost). Then we obey the Holy Ghost who IS the voice of God speaking to our souls. So we are not following man, or position, but we are following the Holy ghost and in this way the Holy Ghost teaches us ALL THINGS what we should do and what we should believe. Whether by my own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same because it is given by the Holy Ghost which is my voice.

But we are recognizing the authority God has given to a man. That calling of Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and President of the Church.

This raises an interesting point. It seems that the old Lectures on Faith has fallen out of favor more or less. This reminds me however of the Second Lecture, which is mainly about JS's observation that our knowledge of God is completely dependent on receiving it first from men, until the holy ghost confirms it after hearing it. He went to great lengths establishing that.

Even when the prophet directs he church, we support the prophet in his calling by letting him declare and organize and do as he will according to his revelation and his best efforts. Then we get our own revelations to how or if

If?

we should participate in the programs and efforts the church is undertaking as directed by the prophet/president.

3) If he is teaching it is wisdom, not commandment even by the comforter

If he is speaking by the comforter, then it is the voice of the Lord, the will of the Lord, scripture and the power of God unto salvation.

Could be. It certainly isn't a commandment.

The only way to know if it is by the comforter is that it will be carried by the same spirit into your own heart and you will feel it by the comforter and know for yourself it is the word of God. The same actually holds true of the prophet who is also obligated to speak by the power of the Holy Ghost before it is binding on us. But even without the power of the holy GHost, he can lead and organize the church and we have no say over his calling.

4) He shall not command Joseph

Unless the Holy Ghost were to say so.

Jesus just said he wouldn't.

The Holy Ghost is a higher authority than even the prophet.

How do Jesus and the Holy Ghost compare.

Remember that the courts of the church are also over the president of the church and there is no one who is exempt from these courts, the prophet included.

Yes. An order was established for that. I believe it is to operated by the twelve and not one one man.

5) It shall be so until another is appointed in his stead

yes, just like every calling in the church...

Interestingly not even 6 months later the Lord had to repeat himself. Note verse 6, and remember even Oliver Cowdery had been deceived, as he would be again as well as Sidney Rigdon (in future times)

1 O hearken, ye elders of my church, and give ear to the words which I shall speak unto you.

2 For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand....

Again, take a look at the uninspired heading...

At this time some members of the Church were disturbed by people making false claims as revelators. The Prophet inquired of the Lord and received this communication addressed to the elders of the Church. The first part deals with matters of Church polity;

You happened to have quoted the first part exactly which deals with Church policy. The prophet is called to declare current church policy, current Church doctrine and Current church commandments.

The matter of Church polity being referenced is the order through which revealed knowledge itself comes to the earth.

Joseph Smith taught that we take truth from any source and the example he used was welding. Respect a good welder. The things of heaven can only be known by revelation, we cannot discern truth about the celestial kingdom except by revelation, they cannot be divined by the normal senses of a man.

The polity issue at hand is the order by which revelation comes, through the President of the Church. You or I are not chosen to reveal the truth about hermaphrodite resurrection issues, and I thank God for that, if God wishes to reveal that to the world it will be through Thomas S Monson, at this time. However, both you or I can receive the knowledge for ourselves if for whatever reason it is relevant to our personal progression.

As you read both sections plainly they don't put a qualification on what kind of revelation is being talked about.

The problem is that Current church policy, doctrine and commandments change over time based on a number of things including how prepared the people are to live them. This means that Current church doctrine is not true doctrine or eternal doctrine.

I think this is misleading or incorrect. Eg, Tithing is an eternal principle for us according to D&C 93:1-3 (how that works I'm not entirely sure; actually, I have no idea) but has been modified many times in modernity and antiquity. So whether 10% of income ( a very modern concept that would make little sense to many ancient peoples) or 10% of possessions (something that would make no sense now. Imagine dropping off a car and an entertainment center at the bishop's storehouse, then he has to sell it for cash, thank God for continuing revelation) based on the level of civilization one lives in at the time, the surface method may be different over time but the underlying principle is eternal and true, and the way you live it in your time, most importantly, is of eternal consequence. So the problem you are concerned about seems to not exist.

Nor are current church commandments true or eternal or even binding on those who are prepared to live higher doctrines according to their own progression.

Except the ones that say they are.

For example, we are told that we are given a doctrine that is binding until the Savior appears to us and that after he appears to us we are to do what he tells us to do.

Would that not then require obedience?

2 Nephi 32:6 - Behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and there will be no more doctrine given until after he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh. And when he shall manifest himself unto you in the flesh, the things which he shall say unto you shall ye observe to do.

Now consider the following, 3 years later Joseph Smith had this to say:

I will inform you that it is contrary to the economy of God for any member of the Church, or any one, to receive instructions for those in authority, higher than themselves; therefore you will see the impropriety of giving heed to them; but if any person have a vision or a visitation from a heavenly messenger, it must be for his own benefit and instruction; for the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom. tpjs pg 21

That is certainly the case except when directed by the Holy Ghost which as Nephi pointed out gives authority...

1 Nephi 10:22 - And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

...just as it gave Lehi authority when he had none through the church...

7 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the awords of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a bvision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the cMessiah who should come—I, Nephi, was ddesirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the eHoly Ghost, which is the fgift of God unto gall those who diligently seek him, as well in times of hold as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.

But, that doesn't mean that Lehi tried to go tell teh Leaders of the church how to organize the Church.

[/quote]
I don't know what this refers to. There is no indication Lehi was not a "leader of the Church". Any Prophet called of God has to be a leader of men, that is in the job title. I recently found a bunch of scriptures that say God appoints them to lead his people. If one is a leader one must have a follower. It seems clear that he was a newly called Prophet but there is no indication he operated independently of any other Prophet or the Church.

Even Christ didn't go tell the leaders of the Church how to organize the church. That wasn't his calling or authority. But he certainly had revelations and the spirit and taught with power from God regarding truth. If anyone could have a right to usurp the authority of the Church, it was Christ. But he showed us exactly how we should be. Let the leaders of the church lead the church.

I have no idea what this is about. Jesus absolutely organized his Church. There was no Church when he arrived other than John, alone. Joseph Smith taught that John was the last legal administrator on earth and the Jews should have been obedient to him or be damned, and that the keys rested with him until Christ came, who he was the forerunner of (TPJS index "John the Baptist").

We are to teach by the power of the Holy Ghost as directed by the Holy Ghost and not our own whims or ambitions, always pointing to God and never to ourselves, just as all the ancient prophets have done. And just as Amos taught,

Amos 3:7 - Surely the Lord God will do nothing, abut he brevealeth his csecret unto his servants the dprophets.

How are those prophets called? The same way Amos himself was called...

Amos 7:14 - Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no aprophet, neither was I a prophet’s son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit:

15 And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the aLord said unto me, bGo, cprophesy unto my people Israel.

And as Amos, we are not called to take over the church and reorganize it and create policies, That is the Prophet/President's calling...

Nor is anyone else called to give revelations to the Church.

FOUND wrote:Yes, I esteem all four of you as true messengers who speak by and through the HG. Great thread.

Wow. Thanks. I consider myself pretty "least" around here. You are so kind to include me in that commendation.

Thank you for your feed back FOUND. I take it that you once were lost but now are FOUND?  I like your name.

Thanks for responding Seek the Truth.

I thought of a perfect example of the type of Church organization things that only the prophet has authority to give to the church. The example is the age change for missionaries. That had to come from the Prophet or President and nobody else. Sure it was discussed in meetings with the twelve, but the revelation on church policy change and final say came from the Prophet.

Now, consider this. We sustain the 12 apostles as prophets, seers and REVELATORS. But based on your understanding/teaching the ONLY REVELATOR in the church is the Prophet. So you are saying that we DO NOT and CAN NOT sustain the 12 as REVELATORS because ONLY the PROPHET/PRESIDENT of the church is authorized to reveal things to the church. If any of the 12 were to attempt to reveal truth to the church which the prophet or a prophet had not already revealed, then they would be out of line and not consistent with the scriptures according to your understanding.

I am defining the word “Reveal” to mean uncover new truth or to show something hidden for the first time. Once a doctrine is “Revealed” to a person anyone else who teaches it is not Revealing it, but reviewing it. That being the case, Missionaries or as you pointed out, Primary teachers are “Revealing” new truths to people all the time. Truths that the person did not know prior. So, this means that we are all revelators to someone when we are teaching that person a truth that they had never heard before.

BUT, this is not want we are talking about. We are talking about receiving a revelation directly from God by way of the Holy Ghost and then turning around and teaching others what you learned by personal revelation. In essence, it is to quote your own personal revelation as the source of your knowledge rather than quoting a Prophet.

The problem is that EVERYTHING we learn by the spirit comes by personal revelation. We cannot know that Jesus is the Christ or the truth of God’s existence, the Book of Mormon or any other truth save it is given to us as a revelation from heaven. The things of God can no man know save by the spirit of God and revelation.

So, a Missionary or Primary teacher who testifies to others that they know Jesus is the Christ, if they are speaking truly and are testifying that this truth was revealed to them by the Holy Ghost, then they are sharing their personal revelations. Any time we teach, if are not teaching or ministering by personal revelation, then we have no business teaching and we are considered a false prophet and the truth is not in us.

"Faith comes by hearing the word of god, through the testimony of the servants of God; that testimony is always attended by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation." – TotPJS, Section Three 1838-39, p.148

The servants of God referenced here are not the Prophets/Presidents of the church only. They are any one who ministers in the name of Christ by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"What Constitutes a Prophet? - If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected. (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216."Section Five 1842-43, p.269

Now, you said,

We are held back in what we can share. And whatever it may be isn't binding on anyone else if it hasn't come through authorized channels.

Truth is not determined by who says it, but rather by who ratifies it and the ONLY ratifier of truth authorized by God is the Holy Ghost. So, we are not bound to obey, accept or believe something only because a Prophet/President of the church said it and declared it to be the word of the Lord to the church. Before it becomes binding on us, we must have the witness of the Holy Ghost ratify it to our souls. If we do not, then we are not bound before God to obey it regardless of whether the prophet said it or what circumstances it was said or if the prophet/president tagged it with, “Thus saith the Lord”. We are ONLY bound before God when the Spirit ratifies it to our souls. Then it becomes scripture and spiritually binding in our lives. And only when the Holy Ghost ratifies something are we accountable before God to that witness.

Now the Prophet can and does give commandments to the church which are binding on us in relation to the church, not God. The prophet can attach consequences to not obeying a law he has given to the church, like if you don’t pay your tithing, then you can’t go to the temple; or if you commit adultery you will be excommunicated. The prophet can define the laws in the church and assign the punishments for breaking those laws. That is his calling, and nobody else can give commandments to the church which are enforceable by punishments like dis-fellowship or excommunication. But he has no more power than any other person in or out of the church to bind us spiritually to any law of God beyond the enforcement of the church. Meaning that the Prophet cannot speak for God without God’s binding witness and expect that we will be bound to it. Nobody can expect to speak for God without God’s binding witness and expect anyone to be bound spiritually to obey or be damned.

And if a primary teacher or even a person we have never met sitting next to us on a bus or plane speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost and delivers a message from God to us by way of revelation, then we will feel that same spirit carry their inspired message into our hearts and we receive it by way of revelation as if it came from God Himself and we are bound to it as we are bound to obey or suffer the consequences. Not the consequences of the church or even of men, but of God, because Gods witnessed and affirmed that what was spoken was true. And the church or the Prophet cannot nullify any blessings or curses given by God and ratified by the Holy Ghost UNLESS the Holy Ghost ratifies that change. This is why the Bishops tell repenting people that they are clean before the church for fulfilling the churches punishment/process but that they need to get a witness from God that they are clean before Him. Because the Church cannot speak for God in relation to these matters, unless the spirit directs and the person received it by the spirit.

The church has in fact excommunicated people who were innocent and righteous before God and allowed others to join or even enter the temple who were not innocent before God.

So, the Prophet does give Commandments to the church which are binding on the church but only as far as it is able to punish or enforce those commandments with disfellowship or excommunication. Nobody else has that right, authority or power. But no one, no even the prophet can speak for God without the witness of the Holy Ghost making it eternally binding on a person.

The scriptures you have quoted are referring to the commandments and policies and procedures of the Church and the ability to enforce them through the administration of the church. These commandments may or may not be binding on a person eternally/spiritually.

But, a person who receives a commandment by witness of the Holy Ghost is bound eternally/spiritually regardless of who gave the commandment by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. A non-member who speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost to a member has all the authority of God to bind that person spiritually because it is not the person but God who is doing the binding. But the listener must receive the witness of the Holy Ghost for themselves to be bound. They are not bound if they do not receive the witness.

So, that is how commandments work in relation to the church and the eternities. But what of truth or doctrine?

A person who receives a revelation and shares it by way of testimony is a revelator. It does not matter if the truth is or has been taught by a prophet current or past. It does not become “Scripture” for a person until the Holy Ghost witnesses it as truth. The Cannon that we often refer to as scripture are not truly scriptures until the Holy Ghost witnesses the concepts taught as being true. The Songs of Solomon are in the scriptures but they are not scriptures. So too, all the principles taught in the scriptures are ideas of men until the Holy Ghost tells us they are true. We cannot quote verses and logic our way through the scripture verses and hope to understand the things of God. We will not get a witness by the spirit until we understand the truth correctly. Many people logic through the scriptures and accept what they say because they say it and they call it truth because it is in the Cannon. But not everything in the scriptures is true. And what is truth taught in the scriptures cannot be understood except by revelation through the spirit. So, you can know for a certainty that if you do not have a witness from the spirit you do not know the truth. This brings us to an excellent question you asked…

How do Jesus and the Holy Ghost compare.

Both are Gods, however, as far as reveling truth, the Holy Ghost trumps Christ and even God the Father as the greatest witness of truth in our lives because the witness of the Holy Ghost is internal; and not external. This is extremely important.
This is why Christ said that we can speak against the son or commit ALL manor of blasphemies including blasphemy against the Father and be forgiven, BUT Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is the ONLY unpardonable sin which cannot be forgiven.

31 ¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. – Matt. 12:31-32

This then places the Holy Ghost in a position higher than even Christ and the Father as an essential guide and influence in our lives. It is therefore more important that we follow the Holy Ghost than any other guide be it Prophet, Christ or God. The scriptures say that the Holy Ghost alone will “teach us all things and show us all things what we should do”. The scriptures do not authorize any other being to do this in our lives. Nor do they say that speaking against or blasphemy against any other being is unforgivable. That is pretty heavy duty!

When you understand the “order of heaven” and “Who the Holy Ghost IS” then you will understand why the Holy Ghost trumps even the Father in our lives as our personal guide and the witness of truth. This is also why When God speaks or Christ speaks we will always have the witness of the Holy Ghost because without it, we are not obligated to obey.

They are “One” and Christ will not speak without the Holy Ghost and neither would God, so it is seems like it would be a useless discussion. But it is important to note that if they did appear to us, and we did not have the witness of the Holy Ghost then we would not be obligated to obey. Angels are also not exempt from this requirement. If Satan appeared as an angel of light and declared himself to be the only begotten as he did to Moses, we can know that without the spirit’s witness we are not obligated to obey, and so are not going to be deceived…

19 And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. – Moses 1:19

It is better to follow the guidance of the Holy Ghost and disobey any leader, church law, protocol or even previously given scripture. To not do so is to risk blasphemy against the Holy Ghost by making someone else your guide.

I know many stories when the Holy Ghost instructed a person to act against the Church protocols/commandments and did well. Because the spirit trumps the prophet and all the commandments and laws that come through him. The prophet teaches the lower law which is hard and unbending as stone. The spirit writes the law on our hearts which is flexable and adapts to every situation perfectly. It is the higher law.

I think that I have provided a reasonable interpretation of the scriptures you provided and detailed how they are true in relation to the Prophet being the only one to “Give Commandments” to the church while at the same time showing that primary teachers speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost can both reveal new truths and give instructions/commandments as if God were speaking personally. The difference being that the Church/Prophet cannot enforce spiritual/eternal punishments, they can only enforce according to the standing and relationship of their membership in the church. And the commandments given by the Prophet are only enforceable to that end.

Doctrine and Covenants 134:10
10 We believe that all religious societies have a right to deal with their members for disorderly conduct, according to the rules and regulations of such societies; provided that such dealings be for fellowship and good standing; but we do not believe that any religious society has authority to try men on the right of property or life, to take from them this world’s goods, or to put them in jeopardy of either life or limb, or to inflict any physical punishment upon them. They can only excommunicate them from their society, and withdraw from them their fellowship.

According to scripture and the promises of God, the church can excommunicate a person who has their C&E and that person will still enter their exaltation even if they never rejoin the church, AS LONG AS they do not blaspheme the Holy Ghost and become a Son of Perdition…

26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation; but they shall be destroyed in the flesh, and shall be delivered unto the buffetings of Satan unto the day of redemption, saith the Lord God.

27 The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord. – D&C 132:26-27

Oh, and I really appreciated your humor and kind way of disagreeing with me. It was nice.

Peace,
Amonhi

Good discussion.

can I simply comment to this.


>>>>>>if God wishes to reveal that to the world it will be through Thomas S Monson, at this time. However, both you or I can receive the knowledge for ourselves if for whatever reason it is relevant to our personal progression.


The first bit. See, this is the thing about god.
he's god
he can do what he wants.
if he wants to deliver his message through freddo frog, or some 14 year old . He can. He's god


was john the revelatory a prophet, seer and revelatory?
The three nephites?

Why didn't the restoration come through them? Etc
it took a Methodist mate to get it into my head that because we lds know more about god, that that means we still know jack, and it is folly to presume to speak about what he can or can't, will or wont do

AussieOi,

I agree with you very much. Certainly the Lord does and will work outside the Church to accomplish his works. In another thread we discuss the 144,000 who are ordained by angels to bring as many as will come to the Church of the Firstborn. This is detailed in D&C 77:11. Their calling does not come through the prophet or church. They are given to reveal MANY, MANY new truths regarding C&E, Second Comforter, the Church of the Firstborn and all the blessings that come with it. These truths are not currently taught in the LDS Church by Prophets or general members. Most members of the Church would have a very difficult time accepting the truths that are taught by and in the Church of the Firstborn.

I came back to specifically add the following quotes by John Taylor as detailed in the LDS authorized book, The Teachings of the Presidents of the Church - John Taylor, Chapter 23 "Eternal Truth". According to John Taylor, we should accept truth regardless of who reveals it to us, in or our of the church.

In regard to our religion, I will say that it embraces every principle of truth and intelligence pertaining to us as moral, intellectual, mortal and immortal beings, pertaining to this world and the world that is to come. We are open to truth of every kind, no matter whence it comes, where it originates, or who believes in it. Truth, when preceded by the little word "all", comprises everything that has ever existed or that ever will exist and be known by and among men in time and through the endless ages of eternity. And it is the duty of all intelligent beings who are responsible and amenable to God for their acts, to search after truth, and to permit it to influence them and their acts and general course in life, independent of all bias or preconceived notions, however specious and plausible they may be.

If any person in the religious world, or the political world, or the scientific world, will present to me a principle that is true, I am prepared to receive it, no matter where it comes from.

We are after the truth. We commenced searching for it, and we are constantly in search of it, and so fast as we find any true principle revealed by any man, by God, or by holy angels, we embrace it and make it part of our religious creed.

A man in search of truth has no peculiar system to sustain, no peculiar dogma to defend or theory to uphold. He embraces all truth, and that truth, like the sun in the firmament, shines forth and spreads its effulgent rays over all creation. If men will divest themselves of bias and prejudice, and prayerfully and conscientiously search after truth, they will find it wherever they turn their attention.

If there are any good principles, any moral philosophy that we have not yet attained to, we are desirous to learn them. If there is anything in the scientific world that we do not yet comprehend, we desire to become acquainted with it. If there is any branch of philosophy calculated to promote the well-being of humanity, that we have not yet grasped, we wish to possess ourselves of it. If there is anything pertaining to the rule and government of nations, or politics, if you please, that we are not acquainted with, we desire to possess it. If there are any religious ideas, any theological truths, any principles pertaining to God, that we have not learned, we ask mankind, and we pray God, our Heavenly Father, to enlighten our minds that we may comprehend, realize, embrace, and live up to them as part of our religious faith. Thus our ideas and thoughts would extend as far as the wide world spreads, embracing everything pertaining to light, life, or existence pertaining to this world or the world that is to come.

There is no man nor set of men who have pointed out the pathway for our feet to travel in, in relation to these matters. There are no dogmas nor theories extant in the world that we profess to listen to, unless they can be verified by the principles of eternal truth. We carefully scan, investigate, criticize, and examine everything that presents itself to our view, and so far as we are enabled to comprehend any truths in existence, we gladly hail them as part and portion of the system with which we are associated.

If there is any truth in heaven, earth, or hell, I want to embrace it; I care not what shape it comes in to me, who brings it, or who believes in it; whether it is popular or unpopular, truth, eternal truth, I wish to float in and enjoy."

I think that that about sums it up in regard to receiving revelation from anyone in or out of the church regardless of position. The Prophet/President of the Church does not hold the patent on new truths by any means. But he does hold the patent on the church organization, laws and punishments, programs, etc. New revelations on truth can come from anyone, and we should accept them from anyone when the spirit confirms. BUT anyone who claims to be authorized to lead the church and make laws, rules, or governmental changes to the church is out of line, and you can know that they are confused.

Now, I see no issue with Prophets calling the people of the world to repentance, including the people who are predominantly LDS or even the church in general to repentance like Amos, Lehi and others did being called by revelation and not by the church. In fact, I expect it... And the humble will take no issue with it, but the prideful will. Especially those who are prideful about the church.

Amonhi

I love that post! Seems many have forgotten to search out truth from all places instead of one source. Including myself.

Amonhi @ John Taylor wrote:There is no man nor set of men who have pointed out the pathway for our feet to travel in, in relation to these matters.

Amonh @ John Taylori wrote:We are open to truth of every kind, no matter whence it comes, where it originates, or who believes in it.