LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 6:39 pm**

Amonhi, when you speak of the two doctrines floating around in the church, I would agree, they are both present. But the second one "ignore your personal revelation" has never been taught by the brethren as church doctrine and that is the straw man I referred to.

The first example you cite (and I wish I was good as displaying them instead of just making reference to them, so I appologize) compare the teaching of Church leaders to the teaching of men, not personal revelation. He clearly states: "respecting the arts and sciences of men."

The next example refers to "any revelation that comes from God through the mouth of His prophet who leads His people..." which obviously means when he has indeed received revelation and is speaking as a Prophet, in which case it would in fact be the voice of the Lord through his prophet. It does not say "any whim or notion of the man in charge...." In fact, I would say that any time we are taught to "follow the prophet" this principle is implied, whether stated or not.

Concerning the third group of quotes, the first quote you mention brings up a good point. I can't think of anyone in the history of the church who has "run counter" to the prophet and prospered. They always seem to fall away. The second quote in this batch clearly references "our traditions and education" and not personal revelation. And then the third one speaks of the prophet as being the man to whom the Lord will reveal anything that is applicable to the entire church, not just to certain individuals, which is clearly his perogative.

I think in general though we are on the same page in that we need to seek personal revelation, I am just more inclined to believe it is necessary as much because of our own faithlessness as the chance we might be lead astray. But if anyone ever teaches in our classes, quorums or Relief Societys that we should not seak confirmation by the Spirit, we have the obligation to stomp out that foolish notion.

Though I do have to sharply descent with the notion that the Holy Ghost grants authority. Authority comes from priesthood keys and the delegation of authority from those who hold those keys. This is the order God as established in his kingdom. But yes, that authority must be exercised under the influence of the Holy Ghost for it to have power.

Sorry again about not being better able at replying to what you said, hope it makes sense.

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 8:07 pm**

PRAY THAT THE LROD WILL DELAY HIS COMING A FEW MORE YEARS

We talked about this OI in priesthood. The teacher brought up a few societies in the bible that were destroyed and Sodom and Gumorah. Why did the lord destory those places (forget which ones he stated)? He said because tehre was no one to offer themself as an intercessory for them. If we partition the lord to be an intercessory (like christ is for us) than he will listen to us, let grace be present for us, and let us to our part to try to save the people. But Lot failed and had to leave. I have prayed for what you mentioned but starting to think it means nothing if we don't do the work to be an intercessory for others.

Amonhi, THANK YOU

I felt the spirit answer a few questions I have had lately. That so many good saints will go to the celestial kingdom even if they don't have a 1st hand witness of Christ is just one. Showed the connection beyond the veil as well. I don't doubt though are some of these who said they hadde'nt seen christ could have received it before death without recording it though. We know Lorenzo Snow saw christ. I think what you mentioned TRULY showed how revelation works. There was another quote at a few posts up from April 2012. I think that sums it up for you quite nicely

Just re-paste that. I did have the spirit un-confirm a few small pieces that my wondered to but had nothing to do with what your message was trying to teach.

Juniper wrote:
"How does the Savior reveal His will and doctrine to prophets, seers, and revelators? He may act by messenger or in His own person. He may speak by His own voice or by the voice of the Holy Spirit—a communication of Spirit to spirit that may be expressed in words or in feelings that convey understanding beyond words (see 1 Nephi 17:45; D&C 9:8). He may direct Himself to His servants individually or acting in council (see 3 Nephi 27:1–8)."

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 9:05 pm**

Amonhi wrote:
durangout wrote:I must be really special because I haven't seen God like 3 of the posters on this thread have and I already knew that the church, it's leaders and it's membership weren't perfect. Is the information that we're living on a telestial level and not a terrestrial level supposed to revelatory? Doesn't everybody already know this?

I'm a really simple guy Amonhi. Would it be possible to state what the point of this thread is in one sentence?
=)) ) =))
Oh my, uh, I don't think I can... lol, I...am...uh... speechless.

Maybe - The Lord leads the church by the holy Ghost, (if we let Him), in exactly the same way he leads our daily lives by the Holy Ghost if we let Him.

I'm quite sure I have no idea what is so funny.

It looks like you took a stab at making your point in one scentence. Thanks. Again I say eveyone already knows this and agrees with it so I don't suspect that that was your point. I think this quote of yours from a post or two later probably comes closer to your point: "You need to risk something like your testimony if you want to gain something like a true and powerful testimony."

btw in the post after the one above you incorrectly attributed a quote to me.

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 9:14 pm**

laronius wrote:Amonhi, when you speak of the two doctrines floating around in the church, I would agree, they are both present. But the second one "ignore your personal revelation" has never been taught by the brethren as church doctrine and that is the straw man I referred to.

He knows this as well as you and I do but he intentioally chose to imploy it anyway...I ask myself: Why does someone do that?

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 9:17 pm**

durangout wrote:I'm quite sure I have no idea what is so funny.

Sorry, your right, that wasn't clear at all. I was laughing at your request to summarize into one sentence and my inability to fulfill your request...

btw in the post after the one above you incorrectly attributed a quote to me.

Thank you for catching that. My appologies to you both.

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 10:26 pm**

laronius wrote:The first example you cite (and I wish I was good as displaying them instead of just making reference to them, so I appologize) compare the teaching of Church leaders to the teaching of men, not personal revelation. He clearly states: "respecting the arts and sciences of men."

Good catch. Based on his quotes as expressed, do you think he would espouse following your own revelation when it contradicts with the revelation/direction of the prophet and the church?

And Just so I understand your views, which do you place as the higher authority in your life, the voice of God to you via personal revelation or the voice of God to you via the prophet and president of the church?

Also, do you think that we should give up our own thoughts regarding the sciences and arts or any other area of study simply because the prophet had stated otherwise?

Thanks in advance.

The next example refers to "any revelation that comes from God through the mouth of His prophet who leads His people..." which obviously means when he has indeed received revelation and is speaking as a Prophet, in which case it would in fact be the voice of the Lord through his prophet. It does not say "any whim or notion of the man in charge...." In fact, I would say that any time we are taught to "follow the prophet" this principle is implied, whether stated or not.

I agree that it is implied. The real question to ask is, "How do YOU know when a prophet or any one is speaking "with the voice of God"?

Though I do have to sharply descent with the notion that the Holy Ghost grants authority. Authority comes from priesthood keys and the delegation of authority from those who hold those keys.

T
I know this is a concept that is new and even odd with the teachings of the church, but let me ask you this question:

If the Holy Ghost tells us all things what we should say and all things what we should do, then, if the Holy Ghost were to tell you to say or do something would you be authorized by God to say or do it?

Sorry again about not being better able at replying to what you said, hope it makes sense.

I think you did fine.

Humbly and in Peace,
Amonhi

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 10:45 pm**

Amonhi wrote:
laronius wrote:The first example you cite (and I wish I was good as displaying them instead of just making reference to them, so I appologize) compare the teaching of Church leaders to the teaching of men, not personal revelation. He clearly states: "respecting the arts and sciences of men."
Good catch. Based on his quotes as expressed, do you think he would espouse following your own revelation when it contradicts with the revelation/direction of the prophet and the church?

If both were really revelation, there would be no difference.

And Just so I understand your views, which do you place as the higher authority in your life, the voice of God to you via personal revelation or the voice of God to you via the prophet and president of the church?

All revelation comes from God, so therefore there is no higher authority. The purpose of personal revelation is to know that it did come from God, regardless of how it was communicated.

Also, do you think that we should give up our own thoughts regarding the sciences and arts or any other area of study simply because the prophet had stated otherwise?

Not because the prophet said so, but because God said so through His prophet.

Thanks in advance.

The next example refers to "any revelation that comes from God through the mouth of His prophet who leads His people..." which obviously means when he has indeed received revelation and is speaking as a Prophet, in which case it would in fact be the voice of the Lord through his prophet. It does not say "any whim or notion of the man in charge...." In fact, I would say that any time we are taught to "follow the prophet" this principle is implied, whether stated or not.
I agree that it is implied. The real question to ask is, "How do YOU know when a prophet or any one is speaking "with the voice of God"?

The Holy Ghost confirms it.

Though I do have to sharply descent with the notion that the Holy Ghost grants authority. Authority comes from priesthood keys and the delegation of authority from those who hold those keys.
T
I know this is a concept that is new and even odd with the teachings of the church, but let me ask you this question:

If the Holy Ghost tells us all things what we should say and all things what we should do, then, if the Holy Ghost were to tell you to say or do something would you be authorized by God to say or do it?

Its not a matter of IF the Holy Ghost grants authority beyond what Priesthood authority has already granted, it wouldn't. Christ gave that authority to Peter, James, and John, who in turn gave it to Joseph Smith, all by the laying on of hands. Seems like they sure went out of their way to bestow authority if all it took was the Holy Ghost to say "Start a church." And as for it being a new concept, the Catholic church has you beat by a good millenia or so.

Sorry again about not being better able at replying to what you said, hope it makes sense.
I think you did fine.

Humbly and in Peace,
Amonhi

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 11:01 pm**

Posted: **February 26th, 2013, 11:31 pm**

Thank you for this thread, Amonhi. And thank you (Amonhi), OI, and Gad for your testimonies of your experiences.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 3:49 am**

Amonhi wrote
I say conflicting principles because we can't follow God and man. At some point we must value one above the other because personal revelation can and does conflict with our leaders up to and including the prophet. When those conflicts come, we either trust in the arm of flesh/our leaders or we trust in the spirit/God. There is doctrine supporting both and people will choose one or the other and believe it strongly.

I totally agree with you here but feel it's worth to mention one exception where revelations can seemingly contradict eachother and still be right. Abraham received revelation that he would gain a son and that he will have seed like the sand on the sea, but than, later on received the revelation to kill his son, and to act against the revelations he received first.

The maindifficulty is wether a seemingly contradictive revelation truely comes from God or not... this is where, kind of funny, personal revelation is needed again..

Abraham knew it came from God because he talked with him face to face. But what if God sends such contradicitve revelations to us through a weak man.?? Can that happen ? I think definetly yes, it can happen.

To me, Woodruff is right in one point. We are to follow the prophet whereever he leads, and to believe the prophet whatever he teaches, BUT, ONLY IF that prophet truely speaks for God. And this is where we need to be connected to heaven ourselves.. Sometimes God will choose a certain channel to teach us faithfullness, obidience and humility.

There is one passage of scripture that impresses me over and over again.. Nephi, having felt the Holy Ghost, Having conversed with the Lord, having had visions of the saviour, stood blameless before God. Lehi, the guide and prophet of the family ( church ) at one point murmured against God and was truely chastened for that.. Nevertheless, and now it comes, when revelation for the family was required Nephi still went to his father and asked him to get that revelation. 1 Nephi 16:18-26

To me, there are a a few great lessons in that...

First,
Nephi, even though not the leader of the family ( church ), often times had more revelations and insights than Lehi. ( For example he received more insight on the tree of life). This can and does happen even today... If the prophet, or any other leader, reveices revelation it should never ever keep us from receiveing it ourselves. In fact, Nephi was impressed by the words of his father, and "wanted to know for himselfe"... Thats how it should be for us aswell.

Second
Even though Nephi might have lived more faithfull than Lehi at times, and even though he might have received more insights here and there, he respected that Lehi ( still ) received the revelations for the family ( church ), sometimes including personal revelations for Nephi ( like getting the plates, Ishmael e.t.c.). I like how these scriptures show how the Lord works...

1 Nephi 3:1-2

And it came to pass that I, Nephi, returned from SPEAKING with the Lord ( myslefe ), to the tent of my father.
And it came to pass that he spake unto me, saying: Behold I have dreamed a dream, in the which the Lord hath COMMANDED ME that thou and thy brethren shall return to Jerusalem

Even though Nephi just returned from speaking with the Lord himselfe, the Lord still had chosen Lehi as the channel for the revelations what to do.

Nevertheless, one point I find deeply interesting aswell is this. The first time the Lord gave a direct commandment to Nephi, which also concerned the whole family, was after Nephi had prooven that he repected Lehi as a channel... Think we can learn much from that.

Third
.. and probably most important to me... When Lehi murmured against God, he did wrong with doing so. Nevertheless, Nephi didn't give up on Lehi. His "deeper connection" to the Lord did not cause him to abandon Lehi as a prophet, seer and revelator... He rather did the opposite.. he encouraged Lehi to turn to the Lord and get the revelations, revelations that he easily could have received himselfe. At that moment he simply would have been more worthy than Lehi.

But Nephis "encouragment" caused Laman, Lamuel and also his father to humble theselves.. and at least Lehi learned his lesson.

I believe we can have the same effect upon our churchleaders or church as Nephi had on Lehi and his family Just as Nephi was just the younger brother, we can just be the small and weak members. Sometimes we are called to follow true teachings that come through weak men, and other times we are called to "ecnourage" our leaders as the small and weak. Both can be challanging, but only by being challanging it can increase our faith in the Lord, mostly by learning to follow HIS VOICE while being in all that chaos.

Most important will always be our own connection with heaven.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 10:50 am**

:ymapplause: :ymhug: :ymapplause:

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 10:56 am**

You really like those icons, ha? :ymparty: me too

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 12:33 pm**

Amonhi wrote:That sounds pretty awesome! But Brucey seemed to like dramatics… For example, He wasn’t present at the day of Pentecost nor at the Kirtland Temple so he is making assumptions that his experience was like that of the other experiences without being able to truly compare them from experience. But, ok, that works...

But more importantly, McConkie is speaking in the langue of the scriptures...

More to the point, Elder McConkie was speaking as the type of person he was. It's true he wasn't at the Pentecost, nor at Kirtland, but as an Apostle, especially the type of man he was, I can see him having a vision or other spiritual experience to understand what those days were like. Having met him, I can honestly say that he has the kind of countenance that leaves little doubt that he understands what he's talking about. Truly a great man. That's not to say he wasn't without his faults, but I'm also willing to see that he sees things I cannot.

As to how God leads his church, it is enough for me that I have a testimony of the Truth in our scriptures and the inspired leadership of God's prophets and apostles.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 1:46 pm**

Tzone said:

"That so many good saints will go to the celestial kingdom even if they don't have a 1st hand witness of Christ is just one"

Thoughts on this? From what I have learned thru the spirit and from d&c 76 I believe one must see Christ in mortality to be received into the Celestial kingdom.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 2:03 pm**

swiftbrook wrote:Tzone said:

"That so many good saints will go to the celestial kingdom even if they don't have a 1st hand witness of Christ is just one"

Thoughts on this? From what I have learned thru the spirit and from d&c 76 I believe one must see Christ in mortality to be received into the Celestial kingdom.

I didn't expound on it since this was in Gospel Discussion thread but than realized I first was introduced to that idea a few weeks ago in the Fastest way to make your C&E made sure thread. So I will now.

I am still open for what could be true, but it seems according to what Amonhi posted he basically "proved" unofficially that to not be the case. I don't doubt the "testimony of christ" means having a personal witness of him in this life. I do believe though many will pass on and make it into the CK.

While we don't know the details of these men's life, he brought up Brigham Young for example. Well I am almost 99% positive he went to the CK. And if the records are correct than he didn't see Christ. Not saying that its a reliable source, but the spirit spoke peace that my thoughts were correct about the possibility to be extended the offer in the next life. But maybe I misread what the spirit was referring to which is possible. He brought up other prophets as well.

My source for BY? He was present IN the Brigham city temple dedication. Why would he be there as a terrestrial being? We even have account of joseph smiths brother Alvin in the CK though granted the gospel was not restored yet. Just what I thought about as I read the posts.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 2:19 pm**

One other note. As long as you are on the RIGHT path when you die doing what you should, perfecting yourselves this offer will be extended. Not if you are a slothful servant waiting for the last minute and than repent. But people do change instantly like paul/saul who was converted by the Lord while being Evil. "If you follow the rod working daily to perfect yourself". Just have to use caution as we don't know where that line fails us. Why would the Lord condemn for something not taught with plainness? (If it was so plain than the majority of the church would know what a C&E is but they don't, the apostles don't even touch the subject unless you know what to look for in 1 or two sentences) What would happen if you don't seek the lord to appear yet live the gospel as you should have to be worthy of it? Would he appear anyways? How do we know if the Lord's test to follow him in ALL things isn't given until we die? Than he will give us that blessing on the death bed or immediately after?

Again just my random thoughts at this moment. With my current snapshot in TIME of knowledge.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 2:24 pm**

D&C 46:13-14 is worth readinge

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 2:34 pm**

Simon wrote:D&C 46:13-14 is worth readinge

13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

And what is Eternal Life?

John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent

So in my case, I do believe on the words of those who have seen. And if I continue faithful, will be able to know and see for myself or in other words, have eternal life.

Posted: **February 27th, 2013, 2:40 pm**

But does this believing gift (vs 13) gift only serve as a starting point to gain the gift of vs 14?

Is it the difference between the 10 virgins, one having knowledge through others (no extra oil) and two having their own extra oil in their lamps. Thus while it will start you with oil it won't get you into the feast? You begin with believing on others than continue until you receive the next gift?

... if they continue faithful The question than arises if one does this, will they automatically see Christ before they die?

Thanks Simon. I think I will fast on this on Sunday.

I may have asked questions but do already know the answers until told different by the spirit.

ajax well said. Again is that to be the case in mortality or eternities. I know what D&C 76 says but I believe there is more too it.

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 6:58 am**

There are two very interesting questions

1. Can anyone enter the celestial kingdom without having received the second Comforter ?
2. If so, what qualifies them to enter God's presence ?

Question One
D&C 137:7-8 I recommand the whole chapter

All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

Besides children all those that WOULD HAVE received, WILL enter the celestial kingdom.

Question Two
There is a scripter that, at first sight, looks as if it would contradict D&C 137. But in truth it can give us some deeper understanding.

D&C 76:74

Those "Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it." shall inherit the terrestial kingdom

Looking at the differences between these two groups/scriptures will also help us understand what qualifies someone to enter the celestial kingdom. even wihtout having received the Second Comforter

Differences
- Those that inherit the terrestial are "HONORABLE men of the earth, who were BLINDED BY THE CRAFTINESS OF MEN" D&C 76:75
- Those that inherit the celestial are "JUST men MADE PERFECT THROUGH JESUS THE MEDIATOR " D&C 76:69

- Those that inherit the terrestial, "RECEIVED not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it" D&C 76:74
- Those that inherit the celestial, "WOULD HAVE RECEIVED it if they had been permitted to tarry" D&C 137:7-8

To receive means to accept, which implies that those who enter the terrestial must have heard about the gospel, but rejected it while in the flesh.. while the celestial would have received, or accepted it with all their heart if they had just heard it.

The "honorable men" allowed themselve to get blinded by other men, while the "just men" allowed themselves to get perfected through Jesus Christ.

Those that have not received Christ, or the Gospel while in the flesh, are "Just men not yet perfected through Jesus Christ".. but it's a promise given to them once they have received him

In the end, God "will judge all men according to their works, according to the DESIRE OF THEIR HEARTS" D&C 137:9

Such knowledge should strenghten our testimony of how loving, forgiving and merciful our Saviour is, it should strenghten our desire to come unto him. But it should not sternghten our testimony about ourselves. Feeling too save will keep us from salvation in the Fathers Kingdom, unless such savety comes from the Lord himselfe.

The whole purpouse of the Second Comforter is to give comfort, this includes the knowledge that we have earned eternal life. Mayby eternal life can be attained witout receiveing the Second Comforter while in the flesh, but why stay in uncertainty when he offers us a sure word ? No matter where we stand, we should always strive for receiving the Second Comforter.. it is the only way to know while in this life.

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 7:38 am**

D&C 46:13

To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to KNOW that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world

This gift of the spirit is much more than "just" a "ordinary" testimony. Having knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and knowing that he was crucified for the sins of the world is the kind of testimony that Nephi received in 1 Nephi 11
How many people do you know that have this gift? I think the answer to that question prooves how special that gift truely is.

D&C 46:14

To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful

Even though we might consider this a "smaller gift" than the other, this still is much more than just believing. It truely is a gift of the spirit. Having this gift does not mean that you will rely on the testimonies of others, but it means that you will believe truth when you hear it, may that be from ordinary people of today, or from the prophets of ancient times ( The scriptures). If you have the gift to believe their words, you also have the gift to understand their words. And such understanding, when applied faithfully, will ALSO lead to eternal life.

By the way... understanding how special and powerfull these gifts of the spirit are, it is interesting to learn that
"to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God" D&C 46:11..

Can, therefore, the gift to KNOW that Jesus is the son of God also be given to nonmembers ?

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 10:08 am**

Wow, what an awesome thread! Thanks to all who've posted so far, particularly Amonhi for sharing a portion of his sacred experiences.

These two contradictory directions (trust in God vs. follow the prophet) really have me concerned.

I believe it's critically necessary, right here, right now, for us to make the right decisions regarding this very real contradiction. There are powerful forces at work now, and I can testify to you brothers and sisters that it's going to get harder and harder to do the right thing. In fact, I dare say that some correct decisions may involve "going against the grain".

I quote Pres. Heber C. Kimball:

"After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage." (I think we can check this off as having been fulfilled).

"Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do...the Saints will be put to a test that will try the integrity of the best of them. The pressure will become so great that the more righteous among them will cry unto the Lord day and night until deliverance comes."

"the time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy against the people of God."

"Then is the time to look out for the great sieve, for there will be a great shifting time, and many will fall. For I say unto you there is a test, a Test, a TEST coming.

This Church has before it many close places through which it will have to pass before the work of God is crowned with glory. The difficulties will be of such a character that the man or woman who does not possess a personal knowledge or witness will fall. If you have not got this testimony, you must live right and call upon the Lord, and cease not until you obtain it.

Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?" (Statement by Heber C. Kimball in Whitney, Orson F. Life of Heber C. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1979. 449-451)

It seems according to this statement that the coming "test" will involve intense persecution that will try the integrity even among the best of us. It's not outside the realm of possibility that this persecution may come from other church members.

How can you pass this test? You must possess a testimony based on a personal knowledge or witness that Jesus is the Christ. You can obtain this testimony by living right and calling upon the Lord (see D&C 93:1) and cease not until you obtain it.

That's why what I said in my opening sentence is so meaningful to me: I'm grateful for those who are sharing a portion of their sacred experiences and testifying that yes, we can obtain such a testimony. I'm even more grateful to the Lord who's orchestrating these wonderful experiences.

Because with what's coming, we'll need them.

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 10:12 am**

I cannot ever remember a time NOT knowing that Christ lives. I have simply always known. When I stand or kneel before Him to be judged, I will not know any more then than I do now or than I did as a young boy that He lives.

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 10:14 am**

As for the coming persecution, if you don't have what I call Abinadi's fortitude, you might not be worthy of exaltation. Just my initial thought on that matter. Obviously Abinadi possessed Christ's fortitude, who descended below us all.

Posted: **February 28th, 2013, 10:43 am**

Simon, you make a great point,

Even though we might consider this a "smaller gift" than the other, this still is much more than just believing. It truely is a gift of the spirit. Having this gift does not mean that you will rely on the testimonies of others, but it means that you will believe truth when you hear it, may that be from ordinary people of today, or from the prophets of ancient times ( The scriptures). If you have the gift to believe their words, you also have the gift to understand their words. And such understanding, when applied faithfully, will ALSO lead to eternal life.

I also chuckled at your comment/question:

By the way... understanding how special and powerfull these gifts of the spirit are, it is interesting to learn that
"to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God" D&C 46:11..

Can, therefore, the gift to KNOW that Jesus is the son of God also be given to nonmembers ?

I love your post Barney Fife!

Barney Fife wrote:I quote Pres. Heber C. Kimball:

"Remember these sayings: The time will come when no man or woman will be able to endure on borrowed light. Each will have to be guided by the light within themselves. If you do not have the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, how can you stand?" (Statement by Heber C. Kimball in Whitney, Orson F. Life of Heber C. Kimball. Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1979. 449-451)

Our "light" or "oil lamp" represents our ability to light our own way. Our ability to guide our own path by personal revelation. Many people rely on the borrowed light of their leaders, the prophets and apostles to guide them and tell them what to do. The term "Follow the Prophet" is a call to rely on and borrow their light to guide you above and beyond your own. Following the Prophet and borrowing the Prophet's light will NOT be enough to stand through the coming tests.

Joseph Smith tells us that "the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy" and makes us a prophet. I will tell you that the knowledge of Christ by first hand experience is "The More Sure Word of Prophecy".

Peace,
Amonhi

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Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...

Re: How the Lord Leads His Church Today...