Have you no sense of decency, sir?

[gclayjr]

I wonder,

What would life here in the US be like today had there been no Joe McCarthy, admttedly a flawed man, whose struggle to reveal Communists working in the DOD, made his name into an epithet to all... even today?

Did he actually succeed in making a difference? (He was right). Did his flamboyant grandstanding actually help Communists, communist sympathisers and other others who want to destroy the U.S., because of fear of being associated with McCarthy and Welch's famous dishonest smear?

Regards,

George Clay

[Original_Intent]

I think he made a difference. He suffered a massive smear campaign which the leftists have always employed against any person or organization that threatened their goals.

I believe he made a difference as his example of standing up to the powers that be lifted the spirits of Joe Citizen who was fighting the good fight. It is good to see that someone in the halls of power will speak truth to power.

[gclayjr]

original _intent

I agree he fought the noble fight. He also was working within his stewardship as a United States Senator. That being said, was his lasting legacy truly useful? Yes, many of the common people adored him, ...back then... but how about now? Did his expose actually stop any Communist infiltration? (Lets not confuse the Tydings Committee with HUAC as many do).

Did his self promotion and lack of clarity in his message hurt his cause or did he truly leave a positive legacy?

I'm not sure. What do we have today as his legacy besides the purgurative "McCarthyism"?

Regards,

George Clay

[Fairminded]

Here's a similar question.

During WW2 a large majority of the Japanese American population was imprisoned in internment camps and, because the military needed provision, forced to do slave labor in the farmlands of America. This was done because there was fear that the immigrant Americans, because of their heritage, might betray the U.S. and work treason from within.

Is it ever right to punish people who have done nothing, merely on the fear that they will? If you're willing to do that, then you might as well support preemptive war as well.

But communism is an evil poison and those who support it will destroy freedom in America and turn us into an evil socialist dictatorship.

Lolwut? Look around you and tell us how our own approach worked.

Back in the early days of the American colonies young women were routinely executed on the premise of being witches. They didn't have to DO anything to warrant this accusation, the accusation itself was enough. Witches were obviously evil and in league with the devil, so they had to be stopped before they would work their evil. From that dark, dark period in human history spawned a term: witch hunt.

Is it ever right to start a witch hunt for those who have as yet not worked any treason or broken any law? Is it right to destroy their livelihoods, imprison them, or murder them?

Just some food for thought.

[gclayjr]

Farminded,

Are you saying that the search for subversive communists working in our government to destroy our country was wrong? I think that it was correct to do such a search. The release of the Venona documents from the former Soviet Union disclosed that McCarthy was not only right in the fact that there were communists in the government working with the Kremlin to destroy us, but he was right in who he named as said communists.

There definatly were Japanese spies working in the US, particularly in Hawaii who helped provide detailed information for the Pearl Harbor attack. There are cultural connections among the Japonese that often made their loyalty to the fatherland more important than their loyalty to their adopted country. I don't know enough to know whether the "Shotgun" approach used by Roosevelt administration was necessary or not, but it is easy to judge them from the safety of a country not fighting for its very life in a desparate war.

Also, the fact that women were routinely killed as witches in Salem is mythology. There were few (less than 20) women who were so killed. That still doesn't make right, but it does put it in perspective.

Again, I think that McCarthy was right, the question is was he effective?, and did he do more harm than good in his clumsy attempt to do that which was right.

Regards,

George Clay

[Fairminded]

The question of whether he was effective pales in comparison to the question of whether he was right. He destroyed the careers of people on suspicion and his paranoia sparked a witch hunt. Searching for proof of guilt and then acting on it through the court systems is one thing, but he did massive harm with little to no proof. The fact that future events showed him to be correct in some of his suspicions does nothing to absolve him of his actions.

[gclayjr]

Fairminded

Whose carreers did McCarthy destroy? I think you, like many, confuse Sen McCarthy with HUAC (House Un-American Activities Committee).
McCarthy was only interested in people in the Military or State Department who were in sensitive positions not being allowed to work in such sensitive positions requiring handling American secret documents if they were Communist agents of the Kremlin. He didn’t even want to destroy them, only get them removed from certain sensitive positions in the government.

The famous hearings where Hollywood celebritities were brought in and questioned about their membership in the Communist Party was held by HUAC. SENATOR McCarthy wasn’t involved in this at all. He was a Senator and not even a member of the HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

Regards,

George Clay

[Fairminded]

So when his paranoia sparked a witch hunt by others, did he fight to stop it? Did he advocate only taking precautions supported by the Constitution?

Because that's the thing. People who incite riots personally do very little damage. But their actions still cause huge damage. People who start wildfires usually only light a tiny flame, but it sparks something much bigger. And starting a national panic and doing nothing to stop it puts him in a key position of responsibility.

[gclayjr]

Fairminded,

I would suggest that you check your history, because most of that which you accuse McCarthy of is just not true (Well documented, not theory). The fact that you and many others believe scurrilous lies about McCarthy may be making my point.

While I think that McCarthy was right on the issues, because he was a puffed up grandstander, he allowed his enemies to paint him as an evil man who destroyed peoples reputations, incited riots etc (I don't know where you get the idea that he didn't follow the precautions of the Constitution).

Regardless, the myth of the evil McCarthy remains and the truth he tried to proclaim is lost, and people fear trying to reveal such truths for fear of being painted with the brush of "McCarthyism"

Regards,

George Clay

[Fairminded]

I'll agree that what I know of McCarthy is mostly from high school, and has a huge bias to it, same with anything else public schools teach. All I know is that the information I do have paints him a certain way, and I haven't seen much to change that. But I'll look around.

One thing is that the Military Industrial Complex painted communism as the big bogeyman until the Soviet Union collapsed, then terrorists became the bogeymen, and global warming, and anything else they can do to stir people to fear. People profited from propagating the Cold War, and while the Soviet Union was certainly a threat, it wasn't the hide under your bed, teach schoolchildren to hide under their desks threat they tried to portray it as.

[boo]

I suspect that i am probably the only person on this forum who actually met McCarthy and knows how he actually operated. My father who was the youngest Special Agent in Charge in the history of the FBI and also the person who served longest at the position , including being in charge of the Los Angeles , San Franciso, Houston, Baltimore, Albany, El Paso , and Jacksonville field offices among others. He knew McCarthy well and introduced me on one occasion when I was young. My father also was intimately involved with the bureau's successful efforts to infiltrate the communist party in the US and among other things personally literally bumped into Gus Hall having tracked him across the country as Hall was on his way to Mexico. Hall wasn't arrested at that time because the bureau planed to roll up the entire organization. My uncle and brother were also in the FBI and worked domestic counter intelligence and well acquainted with communist threats.. I spoke with my father about McCarthy at length on several occasions and it was his carefully considered opinion having been in McCarthy's hearings in NY and having watched him carefully over an extended time that he did far more damage to the country and its citizens that any meager good he did and was only interested in his personal aggrandizement not the public good. I recognize that the message will not be well received in some quarters but we would be better off if we would stop trying to make saints or martyrs out of people whose only agenda is to pick some issue and pursue it for their own ends irrespective of the damage they do to others and the country.

Fairminded,

I would suggest that you check your history, because most of that which you accuse McCarthy of is just not true (Well documented, not theory). The fact that you and many others believe scurrilous lies about McCarthy may be making my point.

While I think that McCarthy was right on the issues, because he was a puffed up grandstander, he allowed his enemies to paint him as an evil man who destroyed peoples reputations, incited riots etc (I don't know where you get the idea that he didn't follow the precautions of the Constitution).

Regardless, the myth of the evil McCarthy remains and the truth he tried to proclaim is lost, and people fear trying to reveal such truths for fear of being painted with the brush of "McCarthyism"

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

boo,

Do I understand you correcty that you think that McCarthy did NOT help the country, even if he may have been right on the issue of Communists in high places, because of his personal flaws?

Regards,

George Clay

[AussieOi]

A politician that pandered to an audience? Of people taught to be scared.

and some wonder if anyone would have replaced him if_he_wasn't there?

Um, yeah. I don't think he created the JBS

[boo]

Let me tell you of an actual experience my father had with McCarthy when he was in charge of the FBI office in NY. McCarthy had scheduled hearings in Albany ( the state capital) to expose all of the multitudinous communists working in state govt. He placed a phone call to my father asking for all of the names of communists know to the FBI in state govt so he could expose them. When my father said actually we have thoroughly infiltrated the communist party in NY and there aren't any working in state govt McCarthy refused to believe that and when ahesd with the well publicized hearing. My father was there. He over heard McCarthy tell on of his aids that and the hearing was underway but before they were to call any witness that the aid was to rush into the hearing room and announce that the Senator had to return to Washington on urgent business. That was the way the hearing went and was never rescheduled. McCarthy never developed any information about communists on his own . Senate investigating committees have to rely on other investigative agencies for counter intelligence work. He added nothing to the sum of information and misused to terrible effect that little he had actual access to .I know for a fact that J Edgar Hoover instructed my father not to cooperate with him and considered him a dangerous buffoon. So I suppose the answer is yes he did not help the country .

[SmallFarm]

I don't know if this is relevant but this is a question that came to my mind when learning about McCarthy in school:
Shouldn't the people be able to choose communism (evil that it is), if that is their desire to do so? Wouldn't letting people choose communism be the best way to illustrate to the people that it is indeed evil?

[Fairminded]

Let me tell you of an actual experience my father had with McCarthy when he was in charge of the FBI office in NY. McCarthy had scheduled hearings in Albany ( the state capital) to expose all of the multitudinous communists working in state govt. He placed a phone call to my father asking for all of the names of communists know to the FBI in state govt so he could expose them. When my father said actually we have thoroughly infiltrated the communist party in NY and there aren't any working in state govt McCarthy refused to believe that and when ahesd with the well publicized hearing. My father was there. He over heard McCarthy tell on of his aids that and the hearing was underway but before they were to call any witness that the aid was to rush into the hearing room and announce that the Senator had to return to Washington on urgent business. That was the way the hearing went and was never rescheduled. McCarthy never developed any information about communists on his own . Senate investigating committees have to rely on other investigative agencies for counter intelligence work. He added nothing to the sum of information and misused to terrible effect that little he had actual access to .I know for a fact that J Edgar Hoover instructed my father not to cooperate with him and considered him a dangerous buffoon. So I suppose the answer is yes he did not help the country .

Thanks for sharing your insight and helping to clear this up. It certainly helps confirm my views on McCarthy and his actions.

[Seek the Truth]

I'll agree that what I know of McCarthy is mostly from high school,

yeah.

and has a huge bias to it, same with anything else public schools teach. All I know is that the information I do have paints him a certain way, and I haven't seen much to change that. But I'll look around.

One thing is that the Military Industrial Complex painted communism as the big bogeyman until the Soviet Union collapsed, then terrorists became the bogeymen, and global warming, and anything else they can do to stir people to fear. People profited from propagating the Cold War, and while the Soviet Union was certainly a threat, it wasn't the hide under your bed, teach schoolchildren to hide under their desks threat they tried to portray it as.

How old are you?

[gclayjr]

I am quite surprised that there seems to be universal agreement that even if someone has truth on their side, if their personal motives are selfish, or they get caught up in the theater of public grandstanding, they do more harm than good to the very cause that they are trying to help than good.

I actually expected people here to stand up and say that McCarthy did good, because he was a voice trying desparately to awaken this country to the truth of the Communist menace.

Maybe there is a lesson here that we can apply to our own pursuit of grandstanding things that we might believe in. Even if we are right, if we get caught up in self agrandizing we do more harm than good, and discredit both ourselves, and our cause.

Regards,
George Clay

[Fairminded]

I am quite surprised that there seems to be universal agreement that even if someone has truth on their side, if their personal motives are selfish, or they get caught up in the theater of public grandstanding, they do more harm than good to the very cause that they are trying to help than good.

I actually expected people here to stand up and say that McCarthy did good, because he was a voice trying desparately to awaken this country to the truth of the Communist menace.

Maybe there is a lesson here that we can apply to our own pursuit of grandstanding things that we might believe in. Even if we are right, if we get caught up in self agrandizing we do more harm than good, and discredit both ourselves, and our cause.

Regards,
George Clay

I don't think you've actually been reading my posts, so I'll give you the cliff notes.

THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS. IT IS NEVER RIGHT TO HARM THE INNOCENT BASED ON WHAT THEY MIGHT DO.