Apostate event was to take place today

[sadie_Mormon]

I read some of this list and asked myself why would an LDS believer post this on the doors of the very church they apparently "believe in"? I'm confused. This list is a "lets debunk Mormons" list to me.

[natasha]

I read some of this list and asked myself why would an LDS believer post this on the doors of the very church they apparently "believe in"? I'm confused. This list is a "lets debunk Mormons" list to me.

You got that right, Sadie!!!

[Col. Flagg]

Guess I'll weigh in here with my .02... I read over the list of 95 and yes, most, if not all of the 95 mentioned are big problems for the church and yes, the church is doing itself a disservice by not addressing these issues and simply remaining silent on most of them while continuing to cover up others as if it's all the ramblings of antis with axes to grind with the church or information not worthy of disclosure to the members because of the negative light it sheds on the reputation and image of it. It seems as though the church’s position is to simply ignore most of these issues in order to prevent disclosure and to protect a reputation based on traditional and historical accounts, but IMHO, if we were to come clean and address these issues once and for all, the church would find itself in a brighter light, especially if this is the Lord’s only one and true church on the face of the earth… it’s all about truth is it not?

If so, why can’t we ‘come clean’ (so to speak) on these issues? If the church did this, I think it would earn far greater trust and respect not just from our members but from non-members and investigators alike. It would certainly impress me and make me stop questioning some of the things I have over the past few years. We should be as open, honest and forthcoming as a church as possible and if that means having to face some ugly truths and letting some cats out of the bag that might tarnish our image and reputation or leave a scar for a time, so be it, but in the end, we would be a much stronger church for it.

Furthermore, regardless of the aforementioned 95 problems, what other church focuses on the family and principles we espouse more than ours? What other church promotes the ideals and values we do that are of the utmost admirable of human qualities? What other church teaches the true meaning of who we are, where we came from and where we are going? What other religious institution promotes a plan presented by our Father-in-Heaven that not only makes sense in terms of mankind’s existence but completely aligns with logic, common sense and spiritual agreement after pondering and praying? We are a church lead by men who are and have always been capable of wrong-doing since the only perfect man to ever walk the earth was Christ and as such, we are going to experience problems now and then, however, the actions of our church leaders have no bearing whatsoever on the truthfulness of the gospel and anyone affiliating another with a lack of faith or making accusations of apostate behavior because of valid/legitimate questions/concerns similar to the ones expressed in the ‘95’ here is simply out of line because there are glaring problems that need to be addressed once and for all. Anyway… my .02.

[braingrunt]

When you understand that the whole thing is set up to make the church look bad and look at it with that in mind, there is no danger in reading it, asking questions about it, and allowing yourself to learn from it. I did the same thing with the Communist Manifesto and I'm glad I did. When I first read it (the manifesto), I honestly couldn't find anything wrong with the ideas presented there. I kept reading, praying for understanding, and pondering what I read and finally I began to see the fallacious and dangerous ideas it espoused. Because they were so difficult for me to discern at first, I also understood how seductive they are and how our society is seeped in these ideas.

We can keep parroting "I know the church is true." all we want but if we have never asked ourselves and the Lord all the questions that come nagging at the back of our mind, finding out answers through the Spirit that we know are true, then we are standing on a very thin foundation. At some point, our knowledge has to go beyond a simple yes or no answer from the Lord about the church. At some point we need to search the depths and root out everything that might bother us, examine it closely, and find out the truth of these things. Then we can truly say we understand that this is the Lord's church, that He's watching over it, and that it continues to serve the purposes of the Lord.

Seek the Truth mentioned bandwidth, and I think it applies here: you can use a lot of your capacity arguing with negative folks. Look at it this way: what if we created threads for each of the 95 points and invited the negative folks to discuss it with us. Each thread could turn into one of our 10 page ring-around the rosies. Even if the truth is accurately stated by someone somewhere in the thread it becomes obscured by nitpicking and unbelief.

I have an uncle who has studied anti material to death. He knows all the ins and outs, the answers to the queries, but they don't care; they just move onto the next point. He has developed fairly effective ways of turning their own arguments against them, laying traps for them: get them to attack the old or new testament without them realizing it, etc, then doing the big reveal. He's drawn crowds when confronting anti mormon street hecklers. He can really rip them up. But one thing is common: they become filled with rage. One said to him: "I can tell that you are possessed with an evil spirit because I want to kill you!"

He's helped a few people but largely they are a bottomless pit of negativity. The next month they are bringing up the same points and if he approaches them again, they just walk away if they recognize him. They don't like to get taken apart. Yet their blind determination tends to have no limit.

Well, good as his work is, I don't want that. I have limited bandwidth and I'd rather spend it reading JOD, Millenial Star, Deseret news-positive sources which still provide intellectual challenges for you so you don't get utterly lazy and have an utterly sanitized view of the past. I personally encourage most people down that path.

[Rose Garden]

When you understand that the whole thing is set up to make the church look bad and look at it with that in mind, there is no danger in reading it, asking questions about it, and allowing yourself to learn from it. I did the same thing with the Communist Manifesto and I'm glad I did. When I first read it (the manifesto), I honestly couldn't find anything wrong with the ideas presented there. I kept reading, praying for understanding, and pondering what I read and finally I began to see the fallacious and dangerous ideas it espoused. Because they were so difficult for me to discern at first, I also understood how seductive they are and how our society is seeped in these ideas.

We can keep parroting "I know the church is true." all we want but if we have never asked ourselves and the Lord all the questions that come nagging at the back of our mind, finding out answers through the Spirit that we know are true, then we are standing on a very thin foundation. At some point, our knowledge has to go beyond a simple yes or no answer from the Lord about the church. At some point we need to search the depths and root out everything that might bother us, examine it closely, and find out the truth of these things. Then we can truly say we understand that this is the Lord's church, that He's watching over it, and that it continues to serve the purposes of the Lord.

Seek the Truth mentioned bandwidth, and I think it applies here: you can use a lot of your capacity arguing with negative folks. Look at it this way: what if we created threads for each of the 95 points and invited the negative folks to discuss it with us. Each thread could turn into one of our 10 page ring-around the rosies. Even if the truth is accurately stated by someone somewhere in the thread it becomes obscured by nitpicking and unbelief.

I have an uncle who has studied anti material to death. He knows all the ins and outs, the answers to the queries, but they don't care; they just move onto the next point. He has developed fairly effective ways of turning their own arguments against them, laying traps for them: get them to attack the old or new testament without them realizing it, etc, then doing the big reveal. He's drawn crowds when confronting anti mormon street hecklers. He can really rip them up. But one thing is common: they become filled with rage. One said to him: "I can tell that you are possessed with an evil spirit because I want to kill you!"

He's helped a few people but largely they are a bottomless pit of negativity. The next month they are bringing up the same points and if he approaches them again, they just walk away if they recognize him. They don't like to get taken apart. Yet their blind determination tends to have no limit.

Well, good as his work is, I don't want that. I have limited bandwidth and I'd rather spend it reading JOD, Millenial Star, Deseret news-positive sources which still provide intellectual challenges for you so you don't get utterly lazy and have an utterly sanitized view of the past. I personally encourage most people down that path.

I completely agree with you. I would never take the time to debate any of these points with the author because I can tell by reading it his intent is to convince others that Joseph Smith didn't translate the Book of Mormon by inspiration and the church is not the Lord's church. I didn't look at the stuff with the intent to prove anyone wrong, but with the intent to learn new things myself. And I succeeded beautifully.

[bbsion]

Here is my opinion. I started to read some of the 95 points they brought up. I read a good majority of them to know there is a lot of anti-mormon stuff in there. I have heard all of it before from different religions bashing the Mormons at different LDS events. However, a few of the points made are valid. The church has side stepped a lot of the issues brought up in these points. But! I think if there was someone in the church that was wavering in their testimony... I would NEVER recommend they read any of these points. I would suggest they read the BofM and pray about it. If they do not receive an answer about it in this life then that could only mean they are either not ready, or they will never accept it fully and therefore will receive a Kingdom equal to their intelligence in the life after. I mean that in NO WAY to be condescending or rude. I am also not calling anyone who does not accept it, stupid. Many people accept the doctorines and are way worse off than those who don't.

Any time I read something that tries to discredit Joseph Smith and/or the Book of Mormon, I do two things. First, I recognize that Joseph was not perfect and therefore must have had some problems. Anti-mormons LOVE to feed off of this and a lot of mormons LOVE to ignore it. Second, I remember the MANY witnesses I have had about how Joseph Smith was truly a man of God. Then I TRY to let my bias subside while the spirit tells me what is true.

Yes, there are many things in church history that are buried and never discussed. I do believe this is not good. However, what do you expect from a church established in a Telestial world run by men (albeit good men whom I believe are trying)? If you must point a finger, start with yourself. If you think the church will ever address every single part of its history then you are going to be sorely disappointed.

The gospel of Jesus is perfect. Best thing to do is always the "primary" answers. Read, pray, fast, love.

[Rose Garden]

Great post, BrotherSmith. Welcome to the forum.

I agree with you. I would add that, if our testimony of Joseph Smith as a prophet is firm, we can learn a lot from the foolish things he did, just like we've learned great lessons from the story of the lost 116 pages. As we encounter our own foolishness, it can be comforting to know that Joseph was far from perfect and yet was still able to fulfill the great role God had for him.

[Nan]

I would actually say that most of the items on that list have been asked and answered multiple times. The problem is that the people asking don't actually want to be answered. They want to prove that the church isn't true. So how long do you keep answering the same questions over and over again. Frankly, I am done with answering antis questions. Someone wanting to know the truth is a different matter. I had one baptist ask me about blacks and the priesthood. He didn't really want an answer. So instead of answering I asked him why the baptist church is still segregated today and if he would like to talk about the issues his church has had on this subject. He said no and we moved on. The people wanting to post the list have no desires for answers. This is simply someones list of reasons that they think proves the church isn't true.

I am with someone else on here that said either it is true or it isn't. It is really that simple. I know the answer I have received.

[etnalf]

I am truly amazed at how much information is available today, which the Lord has given to us for our profit and learning. I am also amazed to what degrees information can be manipulated, augmented, distorted, hyphenated, or down-right warped by Satan and those who he has deceived. But I am down right saddened when I think that any of God's children would rather listen to the lies and half-truths of the adversary than to the plain truth.

During a recent CES fireside, President Uchtdorf warned us about falling into the trap of accepting any published "facts" or "information" (so called) as Truth. The ways, thoughts, trends, and fashions of men are fickle and fleeting, coming and going at will and whim. With the wonders of the Internet at our command, we can (through clever argument and authoritative ranting) declare practically anything as "the truth".

But the Gospel, the purest kernel of Truth, is always true, even if the rest of the "world" says otherwise. It is a truth that one does not (and in most cases can not) receive by study alone. The Truths pertaining to the Gospel must be received through the Divine Witness of the Holy Ghost, with study and prayer, having faith in Jesus Christ that will keep His promise. He will not leave us without guidance and comfort.

We have been promised that if we will do the will of the Father we shall know the Doctrines of the Gospel, and whether they be of God or not. So why not just follow the words of the Prophets as the Lord has commanded, and be thankful for their faithfulness in obtaining God's word for us. Let us be grateful for the sacrifices the prophets gave, as well as the mistakes they made. Moroni admonished us to look upon his people in pity and understanding, hoping that we may be able to become more wise than they were. I hope that the same can, and will, be said of us in future generations.

After all...

"We are not obedient because we are blind. We are obedient because we can see." - Pres. Boyd K. Packer

[skmo]

I would actually say that most of the items on that list have been asked and answered multiple times. The problem is that the people asking don't actually want to be answered. They want to prove that the church isn't true...

Exactly. This was why we were counseled not to scripture bash as missionaries. The object there was to fight, not to learn. This clearly seems like a movement to smear, not to learn. I try to not fall into those traps.

[AussieOi]

Well whatever we are doing we are losing the next generation of we tell them they just have to have faith and ignore all they read hear and see.

bigger issue is the kids who do get the vision, they want to participate. Missions are great for that for sure, but they don't see the adults buying into the "true Christianity/ charitable" aspect.

I recall joining the church when I was in my late teens, and I am certainly in the under 30 age group, for at least a little longer, anyways. Again, there were plenty of people who tried to make the church look bad for me when I was considering joining it, and also when I was a new convert to it. It didn't ultimately faze me. Why? Because I really sought answers by prayer, and made it an ever-increasingly strong commitment to inviting the spirit of the Lord into my life, by being ever-increassingly faithful in how I carried out his commandments. Sure, as the new convert, I wouldn't seem that impressive, and even as a member of a number of years, I'm still not perfect, but then again I guess the church is all about the perfecting of the saints as a main goal right?

Regarding the youth, as with anyone else, how able they are to stay with the gospel is a matter of how strongly they invite the spirit into their lives, the less you invite it's companionship, the more difficult it becomes to live as a faithful member.

I agree 100% Benjamin. Unfortunately, some people continue to research the anti-mormon sites rather than taking it to our Heavenly Father directly. We are products, in many ways, of our environment. Therefore, we need to be careful with regard to what we surround ourselves with.

is it that simple? Or do they find they just don't get answers from god (like they are promised), waiver, ask him If its a scam and then believe that they then felt something?

Can we take this to private forum? Id like to post some posts made elsewhere for discussion