Apostate event was to take place today

[ajax]

I don't think it is the church's fault. The church is to preach the gospel, not give history lessons.

But now that information is more readily available, we are really dealing with "unrealistic expectations" that many people may have had.

[Seek the Truth]

I'm much closer to you there ajax.

[Rose Garden]

STT, I'm a bit confused about what your point is exactly. It seems to me you are saying that the problem is not the church trying to sell a varnished version of history, but just that all this material is easily accessible now. If you truly believe that then I would challenge you to present an alternative perspective about the church among a group of LDS. I was terribly embarrassed at a party over Christmas because I was openly speaking to one of the people there about his atheism among a party of mostly faithful LDS. I didn't realize at first that the topic was taboo. I am used to speaking candidly about religion and didn't realize I was speaking on a socially sensitive subject.

Why is it troubling to some to openly speak of these things? Could it be because of the church's multiple fear-filled warnings to stay far away from anything that doesn't mesh with the central view? Why are we often incapable of discussing alternate ideas with an open mind and charitable heart? What are we afraid of?

[Seek the Truth]

Satan. Apostasy. Temptation. Something like that.

Mormons are people too. If you go into a room of Mormons what is acceptable in that room will vary as you cycle through different sets of Mormons. Just like non-Mormons.

I drove my Dad up the wall reading Ayn Rand (atheist) in HIgh School, my mom and seminary teacher didn't mind.

[Rose Garden]

Gotta do something as a teen to drive your parents up the wall!

The thing is, if we trust the Lord, we shouldn't have to be afraid of Satan, apostasy, temptation, or anything else.

Yes, Mormons are people, too. And a lot of non-Mormons have the same problem with their churches or organizations as well. That just doesn't make it right. It's not right to encourage people to stick with one perspective and to shun other ideas because of fear. Jesus died for us so we didn't have to live lives of fear. Unfortunately, some people use Him as an excuse to inspire fear in others. He's not going to desert us just because we ask honest questions. In fact, He's going to love the opportunity to teach us, if we are turning to Him for the answers to our questions. There is no need to fear.

[AussieOi]

Well whatever we are doing we are losing the next generation of we tell them they just have to have faith and ignore all they read hear and see.

bigger issue is the kids who do get the vision, they want to participate. Missions are great for that for sure, but they don't see the adults buying into the "true Christianity/ charitable" aspect.

[davedan]

http://ldsdoctrine.blogspot.com/2013/02 ... n.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://brainbender.blogspot.com/2013/02 ... n.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

my 2-cents

[Mark]

Well whatever we are doing we are losing the next generation of we tell them they just have to have faith and ignore all they read hear and see.

bigger issue is the kids who do get the vision, they want to participate. Missions are great for that for sure, but they don't see the adults buying into the "true Christianity/ charitable" aspect.

You keep saying we are losing the next generation but frankly I don't see it mate. Perhaps you are spending to much time on all the anti sites like the NOM site and have developed a far to jaded view of the church? I see many youth who are being touched by the spirit of The Lord and in many cases are more committed than most of the adult members I know. They have felt the spirit testify to them of the truthfulness of the gospel and the great mission of the restored church of Jesus Christ. They are not fazed by those who make a living at trying to discredit the church any way they can. They don't buy into all the deceptive blather out there using half truths and out of context tricks to discredit our Prophets both past and present. They don't look at Joseph as he is portrayed to have been by all these anti's and axe grinders. They see him as he is. The Prophet of the restoration who restored a fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ back to the earth. They look at the fruits of all that has come through this church. They don't focus on human frailties of men. Remember what Moroni said in Ether 12 when concerned about his weaknesses:

23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them;

24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words.

26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness;

The work of The Lord will move forward. No unhallowed hand can stop it. Some will be sifted by the craftiness of men. They did not build their own foundation upon the rock of the Redeemer. No man can say that Jesus is the Christ yet deny the mission of the Prophet Joseph. The church will be continue its mission. Those who remain faithful to it will receive their inheritance as promise by The Lord. No worries mate.

[Mark]

http://brainbender.blogspot.com/2013/02 ... n.html?m=1

my 2-cents

And an excellent 2 cents it was. Great write up davedan.

"The Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done” (History of the Church, 4:540)

[AussieOi]

Um, mark, have you noticed we don't baptise people any more?

Aside from refugees and single foreign students.

its kids growing up bro.

no white people. No families. No one meaningfully employed.

have you wondered why?

[Mark]

Um, mark, have you noticed we don't baptise people any more?

Aside from refugees and single foreign students.

its kids growing up bro.

no white people. No families. No one meaningfully employed.

have you wondered why?

Where do you get your statistics from mate? Last I checked we were baptizing plenty of people. I am here in Chile. People are being baptized every week here. I just went to one Sat where 2 wonderful souls were baptized. Stop reading the anti sites. They are full of half truths and flat out lies.

[Fairminded]

From a personal perspective, I grew up in a nice ward in the heartland of Mormondom. Of my circle of friends growing up, all members and most of whom served missions, only one is active and married in the temple. Most were semi-active or inactive within months of returning from their missions.

Now, it could be argued that we all dragged each other down together. But these were all good people. Our idea of a late night was begging the keys to the stake center and playing basketball at one in the morning. None of my friends ever got in trouble with morality, never got in fights or anything. I would call them some of the best people I know.

But none of us stayed participants in the Church. Some of that could possibly be blamed on the home ward hostility to single young men, even returned missionaries, and being pushed to unfamiliar singles wards where we felt like outcasts and lepers.

So Aussie's assessment of the Church losing young members is accurate as far as the 6 out of 7 young men in my personal group are concerned.

[Mark]

From a personal perspective, I grew up in a nice ward in the heartland of Mormondom. Of my circle of friends growing up, all members and most of whom served missions, only one is active and married in the temple. Most were semi-active or inactive within months of returning from their missions.

Now, it could be argued that we all dragged each other down together. But these were all good people. Our idea of a late night was begging the keys to the stake center and playing basketball at one in the morning. None of my friends ever got in trouble with morality, never got in fights or anything. I would call them some of the best people I know.

But none of us stayed participants in the Church. Some of that could possibly be blamed on the home ward hostility to single young men, even returned missionaries, and being pushed to unfamiliar singles wards where we felt like outcasts and lepers.

So Aussie's assessment of the Church losing young members is accurate as far as the 6 out of 7 young men in my personal group are concerned.

People fall away from the church for a 100 different reasons. Getting offended is a big one. There are myriads of others. That does not make the church any less true in its doctrine and teachings. One day we will be left standing before God to account for our choices. There will be no one else there for us to blame for the bad ones we have made.

[davedan]

but I would like to ask you, where did you get this information:

"Rough Stone Rolling" talks about the practicality of the hat vs. the breastplate. Common sense after that.

[karend77]

I read the whole thesis. A lot of it is 100% true. Some of it is true but represented in a way that makes it look bad when it isn't. Some of it is true and looks bad because it is bad. Some of it I wasn't sure was true or not. If I could, I looked those ones up.

I don't care what the church or the apologetics tells me about these things; I want to know for myself. That's why I read the whole thing and followed a lot of the links. I learned a few things.

I'm not afraid of the negative things said about the church. I have no rosy glasses on telling me it's perfect. I have been blessed by the Spirit to see that the church is a very human operation and yet is still managing to do the Lord's work.

So anyone want to throw a lot of dirty stuff about the church at me? Bring it on. They can't hurt me because I know for myself.

Thank you for your thoughts, as this is how I feel as well.

[karend77]

From a personal perspective, I grew up in a nice ward in the heartland of Mormondom. Of my circle of friends growing up, all members and most of whom served missions, only one is active and married in the temple. Most were semi-active or inactive within months of returning from their missions.

Now, it could be argued that we all dragged each other down together. But these were all good people. Our idea of a late night was begging the keys to the stake center and playing basketball at one in the morning. None of my friends ever got in trouble with morality, never got in fights or anything. I would call them some of the best people I know.

But none of us stayed participants in the Church. Some of that could possibly be blamed on the home ward hostility to single young men, even returned missionaries, and being pushed to unfamiliar singles wards where we felt like outcasts and lepers.

So Aussie's assessment of the Church losing young members is accurate as far as the 6 out of 7 young men in my personal group are concerned.

Luckily our ward/stake are not "hostile" to any single adults. But I have a young adult relative in a struggling situation- good person, returned missionary, but his serious issues are ones that are internal. He is working on them and did blame others for awhile, but no longer does. He chooses to go to the singles ward where activity there is about 45%.

This time frame for young adults has always, always been hard, awkward. You have to ignore the "why aren't you....(active, married, temple worthy, dating, going to college, etc)" given by well meaning people and stay true to yourself. If the young adults can ignore the outside pressures and focus on living how the Holy Ghost and Lord want them to, they can weather this time in their lives. If inactive, they will return to activity eventually. They just need people around them to love them and not lecture them. Two young men (in their 20's) in our ward have returned to activity in the past couple of years, with a great support system.

[samizdat]

Here in Mexico we saw nothing of the sort. about people abandoning the Church, there are many that go inactive. In my ward there's about 350 people on the list and about 120 of them are active. Once I served in a branch where there were 600 on the list and 70 active.

not enough people understand just what it means to be baptized, and here there is a lot of gossip. People run away from that like the plague

[skmo]

The thing is, if we trust the Lord, we shouldn't have to be afraid of Satan, apostasy, temptation, or anything else.
...
He's not going to desert us just because we ask honest questions.

No, but when those questions are designed to lead a person into a wrong answer, it's folly to play their game. It's like when one of my students asks another one:

1- Can I ask you a question?
2- Sure.
1- Does your mother know you're gay?

Nobody in my community wants to admit to homosexuality, it's still something to ridicule here. There's also the old saying about there being lies, damned lies, and statistics. Sometimes a question can be asked to learn a truth, but generally a movement like these 95 Thingies (I'm not calling them Theses) has a purpose in mind, and it's not to discover truth, it's to show why they're right and you're wrong. Playing into a game like that is rarely productive.

[skmo]

From a personal perspective, I grew up in a nice ward in the heartland of Mormondom. Of my circle of friends growing up, all members and most of whom served missions, only one is active and married in the temple. Most were semi-active or inactive within months of returning from their missions.

I grew up in Colorado, of the 365 graduating seniors in my class there were 3 of us who were LDS. Including the other schools in the are and the few years of classes on either side of me for a few years, there was a group of about 25 of us. In that group, all but one of the boys went on a mission, the one went in the Army. None of the girls in my group went on missions. However, every single one, both male and female were married in the temple except the Army guy. Of all of us there has been one divorce of the temple marriges. Army dude has three failed marriages. To the best of my knowledge I'm the only one who has had disciplinary court actions against me, and I'm working on caring for that. Over the last few years I have been getting LOT of mission farewell invites and temple wedding invitations. Some things seem to be working well.

[Benjamin_LK]

Well whatever we are doing we are losing the next generation of we tell them they just have to have faith and ignore all they read hear and see.

bigger issue is the kids who do get the vision, they want to participate. Missions are great for that for sure, but they don't see the adults buying into the "true Christianity/ charitable" aspect.

I recall joining the church when I was in my late teens, and I am certainly in the under 30 age group, for at least a little longer, anyways. Again, there were plenty of people who tried to make the church look bad for me when I was considering joining it, and also when I was a new convert to it. It didn't ultimately faze me. Why? Because I really sought answers by prayer, and made it an ever-increasingly strong commitment to inviting the spirit of the Lord into my life, by being ever-increassingly faithful in how I carried out his commandments. Sure, as the new convert, I wouldn't seem that impressive, and even as a member of a number of years, I'm still not perfect, but then again I guess the church is all about the perfecting of the saints as a main goal right?

Regarding the youth, as with anyone else, how able they are to stay with the gospel is a matter of how strongly they invite the spirit into their lives, the less you invite it's companionship, the more difficult it becomes to live as a faithful member.

[Benjamin_LK]

Um, mark, have you noticed we don't baptise people any more?

Aside from refugees and single foreign students.

its kids growing up bro.

no white people. No families. No one meaningfully employed.

have you wondered why?

There's been quite a number of baptisms in Philadelphia, PA. What exactly you mean by ,"We don't baptize people any more?"

[Tribunal]

dude, what cult do you belong to?

Funny!

I hear your point about why harass them. What if they ARE members and simply want things to be honest so they don't have to deal with the non answers and incorrect Disney version we project?

My counsel for members of the Church who want to know the truth is study the scriptures, the history of the church, and the prophets. Then fast, ponder, and pray. No one is perfect. Everyone has a skeleton or two in the closet. We as members need to look beyond the skeletons and see the good people have done. I don't believe in great men, just men who have done great things!

When I first studied anti-Mormonism I was overwhelmed. Then I began to realize that the arguments of the anti-Mormon community could apply to any religious community. You could even use the arguments of the anti-Mormon community to disprove the Bible and the early church. So, either God lives or He doesn't. Either Joseph Smith had an incredible experience or he didn't. Either the Church is true or it isn't. Each person needs to know this personally. You can't rely on the testimony of another person. The most important thing is we find this out on our own. This is a personal testimony! And this is going to require faith!!!

What if they feel it impacts their missionary efforts?

Then they aren't doing it right!

[JohnnyL]

Anti-Mormonism DOES affect youth, some older people, and investigators/ new members. It's pretty simple, you know?
It can even negatively affect people who have the Spirit.

Some people have no desire to know the truth, some do; for those who might, a primer on anti-Mormonism and a few pro-M sites would help.

The Church does leave a lot out. Your bishop leaves a lot out about the very ward you live in. There are reasons beyond trying to hide it for hiding's sake.

Some of what the Church leaves out is the good, too. There's plenty of that, if you look for it.

[Rose Garden]

The thing is, if we trust the Lord, we shouldn't have to be afraid of Satan, apostasy, temptation, or anything else.
...
He's not going to desert us just because we ask honest questions.

No, but when those questions are designed to lead a person into a wrong answer, it's folly to play their game. It's like when one of my students asks another one:

1- Can I ask you a question?
2- Sure.
1- Does your mother know you're gay?

Nobody in my community wants to admit to homosexuality, it's still something to ridicule here. There's also the old saying about there being lies, damned lies, and statistics. Sometimes a question can be asked to learn a truth, but generally a movement like these 95 Thingies (I'm not calling them Theses) has a purpose in mind, and it's not to discover truth, it's to show why they're right and you're wrong. Playing into a game like that is rarely productive.

When you understand that the whole thing is set up to make the church look bad and look at it with that in mind, there is no danger in reading it, asking questions about it, and allowing yourself to learn from it. I did the same thing with the Communist Manifesto and I'm glad I did. When I first read it (the manifesto), I honestly couldn't find anything wrong with the ideas presented there. I kept reading, praying for understanding, and pondering what I read and finally I began to see the fallacious and dangerous ideas it espoused. Because they were so difficult for me to discern at first, I also understood how seductive they are and how our society is seeped in these ideas.

We can keep parroting "I know the church is true." all we want but if we have never asked ourselves and the Lord all the questions that come nagging at the back of our mind, finding out answers through the Spirit that we know are true, then we are standing on a very thin foundation. At some point, our knowledge has to go beyond a simple yes or no answer from the Lord about the church. At some point we need to search the depths and root out everything that might bother us, examine it closely, and find out the truth of these things. Then we can truly say we understand that this is the Lord's church, that He's watching over it, and that it continues to serve the purposes of the Lord.

[natasha]

Well whatever we are doing we are losing the next generation of we tell them they just have to have faith and ignore all they read hear and see.

bigger issue is the kids who do get the vision, they want to participate. Missions are great for that for sure, but they don't see the adults buying into the "true Christianity/ charitable" aspect.

I recall joining the church when I was in my late teens, and I am certainly in the under 30 age group, for at least a little longer, anyways. Again, there were plenty of people who tried to make the church look bad for me when I was considering joining it, and also when I was a new convert to it. It didn't ultimately faze me. Why? Because I really sought answers by prayer, and made it an ever-increasingly strong commitment to inviting the spirit of the Lord into my life, by being ever-increassingly faithful in how I carried out his commandments. Sure, as the new convert, I wouldn't seem that impressive, and even as a member of a number of years, I'm still not perfect, but then again I guess the church is all about the perfecting of the saints as a main goal right?

Regarding the youth, as with anyone else, how able they are to stay with the gospel is a matter of how strongly they invite the spirit into their lives, the less you invite it's companionship, the more difficult it becomes to live as a faithful member.

I agree 100% Benjamin. Unfortunately, some people continue to research the anti-mormon sites rather than taking it to our Heavenly Father directly. We are products, in many ways, of our environment. Therefore, we need to be careful with regard to what we surround ourselves with.