Apostate event was to take place today

[Nephi294]

So a few weeks ago I came across some info regarding a group of "alleged members" and their plot to call for a reformation of the LDS Church. About 300 people were supposed to participate in this event. Event was this, "Between the hours of 9 PM Saturday, February 16 and 9 AM Sunday, February 17, 2013, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others will post this list of 95 LDS Theses onto the doors of LDS churches around the world."

All of these issues that the group have brought up have been answered time and time again.

We have enemies in our ranks!

Here's the link http://mormonreformation.blogspot.com/2 ... ion_2.html

Anyone have any thoughts?

[firend]

This is bizarre. Why? 95 thesis was written by Luther in response to the Catholic Church moving away from true doctrine assuming the church at one point was true.

This new thesis never assumes the lds church was never true to begin with. I was rather interested when I thought this was going to be like Ogden krauts 95 thesis, but this is simply a point to point anti response. Really? Same old crap over and over answered years ago. Any informed mormon can answer every point with ease. Maybe if they do this on all the churches it will inform Mormons alright, to wake up and better know their own history in that Joseph smith actually is a true prophet, etc.

Mormons need to know their history, and then it will strengthen the wheat of the church. Antis want Mormons informed, ok....absolutely because a true informed mormon is a true Christian.

[Gad]

I vaguely remember that. At my building we have people showing up at 6:30 or earlier for Bishopric meeting and etc. I think that is the case at most buildings. If anyone actually did that, it would have been removed and thrown in the garbage long before the church would have gathered to meet.

[firend]

If I were a bishop, I would have read it to the congregation and point to point answered it. Nothing to fear here from these antis.

[Benjamin_LK]

If I were a bishop, I would have read it to the congregation and point to point answered it. Nothing to fear here from these antis.

In fact, that's what a lot of bishoprics do with known misinformation being thrown about, sometimes in letters, sometimes on the web, and so on. I recall 2008, where people were throwing around chain e-mails about political issues, my BYU campus Bishopric said something to the effect of, "No, the bretheren of the church aren't going to repossess your car or house if you don't vote John McCain" and "No, it's not some excommunicable sin to vote no on Proposition 8", and many more besides. Again, there's plenty of deceivers out there, and frankly, most of the time, I don't take chain e-mails or apostate misinformation as something to fear. Again, this event is extremely lacking in creativity. Seriously, you want to imitate Martin Luther? That's what I call rediculous ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) =)) ) =)) ) =)) :ymapplause: ) =)) =)) =)) =))

[Gad]

By the way, the original guy linked to this thread from his website.

[Nephi294]

That's okay if the Apostate wants to link this. His efforts will fail!!! )

[Daryl]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

[Mark]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

The wolves are out in full force Bro. They are found both outside and inside the church. And this forum. Their goal is to separate you from the flock and cause division and doubt among the membership. Remember Joseph's council. Stay with the majority of the living oracles and the revealed records of the church along with the whisperings of the spirit that bring peace to your heart. Tune out the noise from all the laughing hyenas out there and all will be well with you.

[eric]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

The wolves are out in full force Bro. They are found both outside and inside the church. And this forum. Their goal is to separate you from the flock and cause division and doubt among the membership. Remember Joseph's council. Stay with the majority of the living oracles and the revealed records of the church along with the whisperings of the spirit that bring peace to your heart. Tune out the noise from all the laughing hyenas out there and all will be well with you.

Yep - you just have to lift the soft woolly fleece up a bit to expose the silvery fur....... :ymsmug:

[Nephi294]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

The wolves are out in full force Bro. They are found both outside and inside the church. And this forum. Their goal is to separate you from the flock and cause division and doubt among the membership. Remember Joseph's council. Stay with the majority of the living oracles and the revealed records of the church along with the whisperings of the spirit that bring peace to your heart. Tune out the noise from all the laughing hyenas out there and all will be well with you.

Thankyou Mark! :ymapplause:

[Tribunal]

This is such a waste of time. These 95 issues are the same issues the anti-Mormon community has been arguing about for years. This is nothing new.

I've been studying this stuff for almost thirty years and have concluded that if you believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then there are solid counter arguments to the anti-Mormon community. If you don't believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then you might just believe what the anti-Mormon community has to say. Take your pick! Either you believe it or you don't. If you don't then move on! It's a big world so why attack people for their beliefs?

[AussieOi]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

The wolves are out in full force Bro. They are found both outside and inside the church. And this forum. Their goal is to separate you from the flock and cause division and doubt among the membership. Remember Joseph's council. Stay with the majority of the living oracles and the revealed records of the church along with the whisperings of the spirit that bring peace to your heart. Tune out the noise from all the laughing hyenas out there and all will be well with you.

Mark. I spend a bit of time at those sites. Trust me, even on those sites, they aren't talking about coming here.

we are so inconsequential we overstate our significance.

perhaps to get a dose of reality, perspective, go spend some time at sites where JWs have doubts, or SDAs do.

better still, go to their forums, read on how they talk about their prophecies, their leadership, how they set aside their own brain, roll eyes, come back here and revisit some threads like thinking has been done for us.

then if u want to really know if the antis and wolves truly are here, go spend a day at NOM.

As for the 95 thesis. Yeah, I get it. I disagree with their method and a lot of their problems, but I understand where some of these people are coming from. (Although I don't think the 95 people want dialogue or answers, they just want to attack the church)

the bigger problem is that We are losing people hand over fist, and those with doubts, they turn to google, and see stuff like this, some true. Some not.

take point 1. The most recent Ensign mentioned the hat. Sadly, we've dug ourselves into such a Disney version that worked when the world trusted people in authority, and wasn't able to simply log on and look it up.
so we are slowly adapting, introducing the non pixar version,

but will we show the warts? Good question. We need to, but I doubt it. Not yet at least.

FAIR arguing over the semantics of the word "__Droves" was pathetic. We can bury our head in the sand and call this attempt to boost missionary numbers and conversions as a revelation or look at how the administrators have taken over the show.

we ignore at our own peril.

we can be holier than thou and say things like a test, a test, and.rejoice that we are.righteous and they are sinners, or say no, I won't clean the chapel, no, I won't go on scab labour missions, for example.

mark, once the tithing payments slow down, and I'm sure they are because those paying the most tithing are usually those who....



either way things won't.change, in which case in 5 years things will be very different, or they will change.

the 95/ Luther thing is stupid, but they have a point we can ignore att our own peril

[AussieOi]

This is such a waste of time. These 95 issues are the same issues the anti-Mormon community has been arguing about for years. This is nothing new.

I've been studying this stuff for almost thirty years and have concluded that if you believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then there are solid counter arguments to the anti-Mormon community. If you don't believe in Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon, or the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, then you might just believe what the anti-Mormon community has to say. Take your pick! Either you believe it or you don't. If you don't then move on! It's a big world so why attack people for their beliefs?

"Might just"??!!

dude, what cult do you belong to?

I hear your point about why harass them. What if they ARE members and simply want things to be honest so they don't have to deal with the non answers and incorrect Disney version we project?
What if they feel it impacts their missionary efforts?

[Rose Garden]

I read the whole thesis. A lot of it is 100% true. Some of it is true but represented in a way that makes it look bad when it isn't. Some of it is true and looks bad because it is bad. Some of it I wasn't sure was true or not. If I could, I looked those ones up.

I don't care what the church or the apologetics tells me about these things; I want to know for myself. That's why I read the whole thing and followed a lot of the links. I learned a few things.

I'm not afraid of the negative things said about the church. I have no rosy glasses on telling me it's perfect. I have been blessed by the Spirit to see that the church is a very human operation and yet is still managing to do the Lord's work.

So anyone want to throw a lot of dirty stuff about the church at me? Bring it on. They can't hurt me because I know for myself.

[AussieOi]

I read the whole thesis. A lot of it is 100% true. Some of it is true but represented in a way that makes it look bad when it isn't. Some of it is true and looks bad because it is bad. Some of it I wasn't sure was true or not. If I could, I looked those ones up.

I don't care what the church or the apologetics tells me about these things; I want to know for myself. That's why I read the whole thing and followed a lot of the links. I learned a few things.

I'm not afraid of the negative things said about the church. I have no rosy glasses on telling me it's perfect. I have been blessed by the Spirit to see that the church is a very human operation and yet is still managing to do the Lord's work.

So anyone want to throw a lot of dirty stuff about the church at me? Bring it on. They can't hurt me because I know for myself.

Is this guy one of those "wolves" Mark?

[jcricket6048]

So a few weeks ago I came across some info regarding a group of "alleged members" and their plot to call for a reformation of the LDS Church. About 300 people were supposed to participate in this event. Event was this, "Between the hours of 9 PM Saturday, February 16 and 9 AM Sunday, February 17, 2013, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and others will post this list of 95 LDS Theses onto the doors of LDS churches around the world."

All of these issues that the group have brought up have been answered time and time again.

We have enemies in our ranks!

Here's the link http://mormonreformation.blogspot.com/2 ... ion_2.html

Anyone have any thoughts?

I have seen this before and it is nothing new to me this is just like the born again chirstians were spreading in California.

[Mark]

I don't like what I was reading in the thesis. Is there any truth to the thesis? Am I afraid of the truth so I revial and dismiss the author and his followers as anti or apostate? What could I learn that strengthens my testimony of the Savior by reading this thesis?

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Joseph Smith.

Is that bolded part true and something we should abided by? Or should we reject truth because it doesn't fit our team's goals?

The wolves are out in full force Bro. They are found both outside and inside the church. And this forum. Their goal is to separate you from the flock and cause division and doubt among the membership. Remember Joseph's council. Stay with the majority of the living oracles and the revealed records of the church along with the whisperings of the spirit that bring peace to your heart. Tune out the noise from all the laughing hyenas out there and all will be well with you.

Mark. I spend a bit of time at those sites. Trust me, even on those sites, they aren't talking about coming here.

we are so inconsequential we overstate our significance.

perhaps to get a dose of reality, perspective, go spend some time at sites where JWs have doubts, or SDAs do.

better still, go to their forums, read on how they talk about their prophecies, their leadership, how they set aside their own brain, roll eyes, come back here and revisit some threads like thinking has been done for us.

then if u want to really know if the antis and wolves truly are here, go spend a day at NOM.

As for the 95 thesis. Yeah, I get it. I disagree with their method and a lot of their problems, but I understand where some of these people are coming from. (Although I don't think the 95 people want dialogue or answers, they just want to attack the church)

the bigger problem is that We are losing people hand over fist, and those with doubts, they turn to google, and see stuff like this, some true. Some not.

take point 1. The most recent Ensign mentioned the hat. Sadly, we've dug ourselves into such a Disney version that worked when the world trusted people in authority, and wasn't able to simply log on and look it up.
so we are slowly adapting, introducing the non pixar version,

but will we show the warts? Good question. We need to, but I doubt it. Not yet at least.

FAIR arguing over the semantics of the word "__Droves" was pathetic. We can bury our head in the sand and call this attempt to boost missionary numbers and conversions as a revelation or look at how the administrators have taken over the show.

we ignore at our own peril.

we can be holier than thou and say things like a test, a test, and.rejoice that we are.righteous and they are sinners, or say no, I won't clean the chapel, no, I won't go on scab labour missions, for example.

mark, once the tithing payments slow down, and I'm sure they are because those paying the most tithing are usually those who....



either way things won't.change, in which case in 5 years things will be very different, or they will change.

the 95/ Luther thing is stupid, but they have a point we can ignore att our own peril

I know a fair amount about the antis and the wolves Bro. I have lost family members and friends to their deceptive pitch. They have no desire to seek for truth. They are only interested in portraying the worst possible scenario with every aspect of the restored gospel. Their hearts are not pure and they have no charity behind their faultfinding attacks on the church and its Prophets. By their fruits ye shall know them. The Kingdom will roll forward despite their feeble attempts to discredit it. The pure in heart will see through the adversaries best laid plans.

[Seek the Truth]

perhaps to get a dose of reality, perspective, go spend some time at sites where JWs have doubts, or SDAs do.

Why limit it to that?

Why not go to a Catholic or other Protestant forums, you find the same things where they struggle with Lilith or whatever. People are leaving all the churches. I find a lot of people are rather myopic in this view. As you mention, nobody knows or cares about us, most anti-mormon sites I find now are run by mormons or some kind of partial mormons. You now have this group who thinks Joseph Smith was a prophet and condemn everything after, but the standards they use easily condemn Joseph Smith himself. There are only so many hours in a day.

we ignore at our own peril.

In what way really. I've been engaging anti-mormon material my whole life, what good has it done. I've been opposing anti-freedom pro globalist politics my whole life, what good has it done. What have I ignored? Why do I have to dance a jig whenever someone wants to make me?

Oh lets repackage some age old anti-mormon crap, put it in a new delivery vehicle and watch 'em squirm. I know, let's find some old journals of a sister/brother/cousin of a polyg that didn't like Joseph Smith, say it was suppressed and ooh and ahh about a new bombshell sure to bring down the Mormon Church.

mark, once the tithing payments slow down, and I'm sure they are because those paying the most tithing are usually those who....

Good reason for all those investments. Hopefully they pay off.

either way things won't.change, in which case in 5 years things will be very different, or they will change.

What do you want to change? What should it change to? Other than obscure journals that would never justify publication before digitization what hasn't been addressed a bazillion times.

[Seek the Truth]

dude, what cult do you belong to?

I hear your point about why harass them. What if they ARE members and simply want things to be honest so they don't have to deal with the non answers and incorrect Disney version we project?
What if they feel it impacts their missionary efforts?

I've helped a number of members dealing with anti-mormon materials. There is a difference between them and people creating or promoting anti-materials.

[ajax]

I think the problem is most of it really isn't "anti" material. Just people learning reality and facts rather than the sanitized version.

A lot of mormons have an unrealistic view of the history of the church and have been taught and only read the sanitized versions the church has put out. The information age has brought out of obscurity the ugly facts of history as well. It is a matter of reorienting these people to a more realistic approach.

This essay is helpful:
http://mimobile.byu.edu/?m=5&table=revi ... m=2&id=560" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Seek the Truth]

I think the problem is most of it really isn't "anti" material. Just people learning reality and facts rather than the sanitized version.

There is definitely anti-material.

A lot of mormons have an unrealistic view of the history of the church and have been taught and only read the sanitized versions the church has put out.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least we are well ahead of the Catholics on that count. WAY ahead. We have that going for us.

[Rose Garden]

I read the whole thesis. A lot of it is 100% true. Some of it is true but represented in a way that makes it look bad when it isn't. Some of it is true and looks bad because it is bad. Some of it I wasn't sure was true or not. If I could, I looked those ones up.

I don't care what the church or the apologetics tells me about these things; I want to know for myself. That's why I read the whole thing and followed a lot of the links. I learned a few things.

I'm not afraid of the negative things said about the church. I have no rosy glasses on telling me it's perfect. I have been blessed by the Spirit to see that the church is a very human operation and yet is still managing to do the Lord's work.

So anyone want to throw a lot of dirty stuff about the church at me? Bring it on. They can't hurt me because I know for myself.

Is this guy one of those "wolves" Mark?

Guy, Aussie? As in male?

[Rose Garden]

I think the problem is most of it really isn't "anti" material. Just people learning reality and facts rather than the sanitized version.

There is definitely anti-material.

A lot of mormons have an unrealistic view of the history of the church and have been taught and only read the sanitized versions the church has put out.

Maybe, maybe not, but at least we are well ahead of the Catholics on that count. WAY ahead. We have that going for us.

There is a lot of anti-material out there, and the stuff in the opening paragraph certainly could qualify, but I think what Ajax was saying is that a lot of material that is considered anti these days is not really anti. It's just the ugly truth. But because in the church we are taught a certain version of things with much of the questionable stuff pulled out, the members have never had to face this sort of challenge to their faith. And unfortunately, a lot of them are finding that this kind of thing really does a lot of damage.

It really doesn't matter if we are ahead or behind of the Catholic church in this or any other thing. It only matters whether we have the ability to bring people to Christ. If we fail in that, it doesn't matter how much worse the Catholics have done as well. We have a certain mission and we ought to be accomplishing it. And despite all the human failings found in the church, including the modern tendency to whitewash history to make us look a little more polished, we are still accomplishing that most important goal.

[Seek the Truth]

I guess I disagree with that. I'm not so sure about the claims of "white wash". The Gospel is not History, whether ancient or modern. There is a relationship yes but there is a separation.

This is about the internet. I don't know everyone's age here but public discourse has dramatically changed, before/after and I've watched it.

Take politics for instance. In days of yore you could literally LIE and have little chance of getting caught, now,being made to look like a fool is a youtube away, or some other link. Now what is lied about are motivations and whatnot.

Everything is instantly searchable. Now the deceptions lie in other areas.

For instance a lot of anti that I see now are what I call "summaries". They put out a dozen summaries or partial quotes or one quote when there are a dozen relevant on an issue and draw a condemning conclusion. So to refute it you have to dig out a dozen quotes from the source in full context, and very quickly you run out of gas besides who is even going to read it... There is only so much bandwidth.

But what I think we're really seeing all the way around is the exponential growth of material, period, regardless of whether we're talking about our religion, other religions, other cultural aspects.

Consider this:

The bulk of our teaching comes from the canon, History of the Church/TPJS, JoD, and General Conference.

Until somewhat recently these were only available through purchase, and were subject to economic realities. We are a church with a history of poverty, and growing up hardly anyone could afford a JoD, HoC, Conference compendiums and so forth. Except for a relative few the only exposure to these materials has been through the accursed terrible Correlation Committee manuals.

A result of this is from the Church's point of view you can't justify printing vast tracts of what at the time would be considered obscure material when people aren't even buying the JoD or the HoC, and a lot of "outside" church publishing are essentially tiny cottage industries;

Now publishing costs almost nothing and apparently people are being exposed to things they've never seen before. It is very hard for me to be sympathetic to these views. I'm a nobody and I bought all the books. Put away $25 a month and use your resources and you can buy a lot of stuff and read and know for yourself. People who won't even read the Book of Mormon are complaining they weren't taught about something Wilford Woodruff did in 189x. Well, for the most part I knew about it and I'm nothing special.

Second, where is the suppression? A lot of this stuff was public domain. Do you record everything you do and then tell your children about it and make sure they know all about it by the age of 6? Eg, I've seen people SHOCKED that their were anti polygamy movements in SLC back in the day. THE CHURCH SUPPRESSED IT! Err, how can they, it was in the paper and in common memory. How bout this? How about EVERYBODY FORGOT ABOUT IT AND MOVED ON. YES, NOW EVERY SCRAP OF PAPER IS BEING DIGITIZED BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE ALL POWERFUL MORMON CHURCH IS HIDING SOMETHING FROM YOU. UNTIL RECENTLY THERE WAS NO OUTLET FOR IT.

Now for all these journals it goes double. People wouldn't/couldn't buy the JoD or the HoC, who is going to buy all these journals?

This is about the internet and digitization and if affects far, far more than mere Mormonism. Deep breaths.