Thoughts on the Pope

[HeirofNumenor]

"Master Jesus" ? And I suppose that's the anti-christ?

Just so you all know, there is no specific anti-christ in the bible. It's just a name for anyone who opposes Jesus.

I agree.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This cannot be a pope. He does not sit in a temple as if he were God. It sounds more like a dire warning for people who live in a time and religion when true temples exist - and the temple is entered by a man who knows (son of perdition) and yet exalts himself as if he were God.

In other words, if it was in our time, it would be a man who has a knowledge of God (a prophet who has seen the Lord, for example), yet holds himself up as if he was God. I do not want to live in that day.

Agree it MAY not be the Pope.
Disagree it will be an LDS Prophet or Apostle, in an LDS Temple.

The likelihood is far stronger that you will have an Anti-Christ figure (Lord Maitreya) who comes "from Heaven" and every person will hear him in their own language and religious terminology for that region of the Earth (Project Blue Beam) working "miracles" (nanotechnology), who preaches one-worldism/follow the UN, declares himself to be Christ, Messiah, Twelfth Imam/Imam Madhi, Vishnu, Buddha, etc. He will sit in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (courtesy of Rothschilds).

Maitreya is real (and hanging out in England, Kenya, India, etc). The technology is there. His spokesman (Benjamin Creme) is already here running around proclaiming his greatness and coming.

One sign to tell this is an anti-christ, is that Creme says there is to be a great earthquake, which will reveal a major treasure trove of archeological artifacts and writings. These will (supposedly) prove that ALL historical religions of the world are corrupted and changed to give power and wealth to past "prophets", and the ORIGINAL TRUE religion will be shown in these writings (which just so happens to be the mystical, New Age/Pagan/Earth Goddess, one-worldisms that will be very popular and what Maitreya will be preaching).

[embryopocket]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

You may enjoy this fascinating discussion and history of the Catholic church and Popes and prophecies that have existed to explain what may be coming, and soon. http://blogtalk.vo.llnwd.net/o23/show/4 ... 361077.mp3. It's several hours long, and may help explain the meaning of some of these seemingly unrelated events. I'm not saying it's gospel or even fully accurate as they quote source we don't focus on, but it's enlightening and useful to posit in the back of your brain (plan on a few hours to listen) as events unfold.

There are many concepts spoken of if you read and study about ancient text/pseudepigrapha (via Nibley, et al.) that will be familiar to you discussed by these authors. It's important to think about these events in terms of global/ancient history as there are many players. While we have the Priesthood restored and fullness of the gospel, our religion does and will encompasses all truth..."all truth will be... (don't need to quote it all)". I think we'll all be completely amazed at the coming events in the next 5-10 years, both "great and dreadful".

In Chapter 40: A Long Night of Apostasy in Jesus the Christ, Elder James E. Talmage says that the institution of the Pope in the Catholic Church fulfilled this prophecy.

[JohnnyL]

Agree it MAY not be the Pope.
Disagree it will be an LDS Prophet or Apostle, in an LDS Temple.

The likelihood is far stronger that you will have an Anti-Christ figure (Lord Maitreya) who comes "from Heaven" and every person will hear him in their own language and religious terminology for that region of the Earth (Project Blue Beam) working "miracles" (nanotechnology), who preaches one-worldism/follow the UN, declares himself to be Christ, Messiah, Twelfth Imam/Imam Madhi, Vishnu, Buddha, etc. He will sit in the rebuilt temple in Jerusalem (courtesy of Rothschilds).

Maitreya is real (and hanging out in England, Kenya, India, etc). The technology is there. His spokesman (Benjamin Creme) is already here running around proclaiming his greatness and coming.

One sign to tell this is an anti-christ, is that Creme says there is to be a great earthquake, which will reveal a major treasure trove of archeological artifacts and writings. These will (supposedly) prove that ALL historical religions of the world are corrupted and changed to give power and wealth to past "prophets", and the ORIGINAL TRUE religion will be shown in these writings (which just so happens to be the mystical, New Age/Pagan/Earth Goddess, one-worldisms that will be very popular and what Maitreya will be preaching).

THAT temple has already been built. Maybe... (Search for the truth among the untruth:)
This one: http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/r ... upreme.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
or this one: http://destination-yisrael.biblesearche ... mount.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is the original true religion going to be that (a la "Avatar"), Prometheus/ gnosticism (a la Prometheus/ "Iron Man", "Iron Man 2" (as discussed on vigilentcitizen.com), or a mix?

[HeirofNumenor]

THAT temple has already been built.

I suppose that is a possibility...

[A Random Phrase]

Agree it MAY not be the Pope.
Disagree it will be an LDS Prophet or Apostle, in an LDS Temple.

But how is it possible for a person to be a son of perdition if they don't have the knowledge? And who, outside of the LDS church, would have that kind of absolute knowledge? And, surely, the word "temple" was used to mean that, and not some random house of worship of another religion?

I wonder what the original words were, how they could be translated, that were translated into

3 ... man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 ... opposeth ... exalteth ... above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I take it to mean a temple of God. I take it to mean a true servant of God who has turned bad. I also don't want to be here when it gets that bad because, if it does, this church will be a scary place to be.

IF it happens, I would think that some of the leaders follow the evil man and some don't - and the members will be in a quandary unless they have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, totally and completely, above all else.

[A Random Phrase]

Strong's numbers

G444 - man - human being; - certain, man.

G266 - sin - offence, sin(-ful)

G601 - revealed - to take off the cover, that is, disclose: - reveal

G5207 - son - Apparently a primary word; a "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kindship: - child, foal, son.

G684 - perdition - From a presumed derivative of G622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable ( - nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

G480 - opposeth - From G473 and G2749; to lie opposite, that is, be adverse (figuratively repugnant) to: - adversary, be contrary, oppose.

G5229 - exalteth himself - Middle voice from G5228 and G142; to raise oneself over, that is, (figuratively) to become haughty: - exalt self, be exalted above measure.

G1901 - above - A primary preposition properly meaning superimpositioin (of time, place, order, etc.), as a relation of distribution [with the genitive case], that is, over, upon, etc.; of rest (with the dative case) at, on, etc.; of direction (with the accusative case) towards, upon, etc: - about (the times), above, after, against, among, as ong as (touching), at, beside, X have charge of, (be-, [where-]) fore, in (a place, as much as, the time of, -to), (because) of, (up-) on (behalf of) over, (by, for) the space of, through (-out), (un-) to (-ward), with. In compounds it retains essentially the same import, at, upon, etc. (literally or figuratively).

G3004 - called - A primary verb; properly to "lay" forth, that is, (figuratively) relate (in words [usually of systematic or set discourse; whereas G2036 and g5346 generally refer to an individual expression or speech respectively; while G4483 is properly to break silence merely, and G2980 means an extended or random harangue]): by implication to mean: - ask, bid, boast, call, describe, give out, name, put forth, say (-ing, on), shew, speak, tell, utter.

G2316 - God - Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supereme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: - X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].

G4574 - worshipped - From G4573; something adored, that is, an object of worship (god, altar, etc.): - devotion, that is worshipped.

G5613 - as - Probably adverb compound from G3739; which how, that is, in that manner (very [sic] variously as shown): - about, after (that), (according) as (it had been, it were), as soon (as), even as (like), for, how (greatly), lie (as, unto), since, so (that), that, to wit, unto, when ([-soever]), while, X with all speed.

G2523 - sitteth - Another (active) form for G2516; to seat down, that is, set (figuratively appoint); intransitively to sit (down); figuratively to settle (hover, dwell): - continue, set, sit (down), tarry.

G3485 - temple - From a primary word naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple: - shrine, temple Compare G2411.

G584 - shewing - From G575 and G1166; to show off, that is, exhibit; figuratively to demonstrate, that is, accredit: - (ap-) prove, set forth, shew.

Well, that didn't really clear anything up.

[HeirofNumenor]

Well, that didn't really clear anything up.

)

[HeirofNumenor]

3 ... man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Question: Did the King James Translators (or revised, NIV, whatever), have the same understanding of the word "Perdition" as LDS do?

My guess is they would not.

In that case, what would probably be a better term to fit here is "man/son of Hell"

IMO, this would fit the language and understanding in use at the time of translation.

But that is just my opinion...

[HeirofNumenor]

And of course my netnanny scrambled the use of the word H e l l

[A Random Phrase]

3 ... man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Question: Did the King James Translators (or revised, NIV, whatever), have the same understanding of the word "Perdition" as LDS do?

My guess is they would not.

In that case, what would probably be a better term to fit here is "man/son of Hell"

IMO, this would fit the language and understanding in use at the time of translation.

But that is just my opinion...

Well, Strong's numbers says the word "perdition" was translated from could be ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal): - damnable ( - nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

I understand the word perdition is another word for hell. LDS have a different understanding for the phrase "son of perdition" which is where I was coming from. But if one considers the man to simply be a child of Hell, I'm sure hundreds of people today could fit that. But, then, what about the temple? Why that word?

[HeirofNumenor]

But, then, what about the temple? Why that word?

a) it could be as you said - an LDS temple

b) it could that Paul was thinking of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem....

Given the limits of prophecies by Paul of the Last Days, as well as pretty much all the Biblical Last Days prophecies seem to be dealing with Europe & Middle-East - I'd say b)


But that's just my opinion....

[A Random Phrase]

So, possibly someone taking over the temple in Jerusalem - but we may not hear about it?

[HeirofNumenor]

So, possibly someone taking over the temple in Jerusalem - but we may not hear about it?

That depends on if you follow a Last Day's sequencing that Cleon Skousen believed:

Adam-Ondi-Ahman
3/1 years persecution of LDS Church
Americas cleansed/ First Beast falls (Rev 13)
AOA (alternate timing)
New Jerusalem
Oceans and atmosphere in Turmoil - West. Hemisphere cut off from rest of world
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second Beast rises (Rev 13) EAST. Hemisphere - Tyranny
Last call for repentance, 144,000 (alternate timing)
Saints and good people flee to America, via power of God to pass storms
Anti-Christ sits in Jerusalem Temple
Persecution of Jews
3 1/2 years siege of Israel
Armageddon
2 Prophets slain
Anti-Christ sits in Jerusalem Temple (alternate timing)
2 Prophets resurrected, Mount of Olives appearance (some say this IS Second Coming in glory to all the world)
Last call for repentance, 144,000
Second Coming in glory to all the world

With the Americas cut off, there will be NO communication between East and West, though the First Presidency and Twelve Apostles will know by revelation. Later, refugees allowed by God and faith will come to America bringing news confirming the Second Beast's tyranny.


I am not saying this IS exactly how it will be - only what Dr. Skousen, his SIL Glen Kimber, and Elder Hartman Rector jr (emeritus 70) taught around 2000. But the sequencing DOES make sense...
I have indicated alternate timings for a few events.
Not saying this way is absolute, but I also don't think we have anything else truly authoritative, either.

[sixth seal]

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

= Satan.

[A Random Phrase]

Thanks, Heir.

So, Sixth, what is the temple in that case? A spiritual one? A spiritual ascension? Something he has been trying to do since the creation of the earth? (Serious questions.)

[HeirofNumenor]

One OTHER possibility:

The LDS Temple in ROME will be dedicated in 2014-15.

We invite all local government officials for a VIP tour prior to the general public Open House.

I think we would naturally invite representatives from the Vatican as well.


Pure SPECULATION:

Is it out of the realm of possibility that the new Pope would decide to tour the Rome Temple, and in some manner claim at least a divine experience there, which gets morphed into that he (Pope) is Deity himself? :-\

[A Random Phrase]

You know, Heir, temples have been destroyed before, and have been taken over by unfriendly forces. It does not seem out of the realm of possibility that the temple slated to open in Rome should one day be taken over. I'd not thought of that.

[HeirofNumenor]

You know, Heir, temples have been destroyed before, and have been taken over by unfriendly forces. It does not seem out of the realm of possibility that the temple slated to open in Rome should one day be taken over. I'd not thought of that.

This goes to something else that has been bothering me for the last year or two...

I just have a gut feeling that somehow we (LDS Church) will be able to prosper long enough to get the Rome temple finished (dedicated?).

Once that is done, though - all Heck breaks loose on us....

[A Random Phrase]

I wonder how that would mesh, time-wise, with the outflux of missionaries. We have those going out now who would not have gone out until 1 and 2 years later, before the last general conference. Total conjecture, but if they go out now and could not have gone at their regular times, that's a year or two - 2014-2015. Probably just superstition and hogwash, but it's fun to try to figure it out, and to pretend we know a thing or two.

[sixth seal]

Thanks, Heir.

So, Sixth, what is the temple in that case? A spiritual one? A spiritual ascension? Something he has been trying to do since the creation of the earth? (Serious questions.)

The simple answer is, yes. The falling away was the apostasy after the death of Christ and the apostles. The church (symbolized as the temple of God) was corrupted and changed and headed by Satan.

[samizdat]

Elder James Talmage was quoted as saying that there were people alive at that time, and even some in the audience, that would read the records of the Ten Tribes.

He said that in October 1916.

There is a Tetrad coming in 2014 and 2015 on the Jewish holidays, and whenever that has happened, something of great significance to the Jewish people has happened. Could this be when the Ten Tribes come?

This pope resigning is very fishy to say the least. Nostradamus was quoted as saying that the last pope would flee Rome in December when there were two suns in the sky...given that ISON is going to be as bright as a full moon on 28 November, something is getting EXTREMELY fishy...

[A Random Phrase]

Thanks, Heir.

So, Sixth, what is the temple in that case? A spiritual one? A spiritual ascension? Something he has been trying to do since the creation of the earth? (Serious questions.)

The simple answer is, yes. The falling away was the apostasy after the death of Christ and the apostles. The church (symbolized as the temple of God) was corrupted and changed and headed by Satan.

That seems like a plausible explanation.

samizdat, what is a tetrad?