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Nephi, where do you think the funds the church invested that generated the interest the church used to help fund City Creek came from? Were direct tithing monies used? No. Was money generated in the form of interest that orginally derived from tithing? Yes. Thus, it was a rather misleading statement to say that no tithing funds were used. Do you see now?Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
Hey Flagg, I can see where your concern comes from but I just don’t think that’s the case. The Church’s real estate arm and another real estate developer (not affiliated with The Church) went in together to build the City Creek Center. The City Creek Center itself cost 1.5 billion. The money that The Church’s real estate arm receives comes from other real estate ventures.Col. Flagg wrote:Nephi, where do you think the funds the church invested that generated the interest the church used to help fund City Creek came from? Were direct tithing monies used? No. Was money generated in the form of interest that orginally derived from tithing? Yes. Thus, it was a rather misleading statement to say that no tithing funds were used. Do you see now?Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
It definitely wasn't from private investments and contributions that's for sure! I was thinking today, what role would Jesus have in inspiring this project:Col. Flagg wrote:Nephi, where do you think the funds the church invested that generated the interest the church used to help fund City Creek came from? Were direct tithing monies used? No. Was money generated in the form of interest that orginally derived from tithing? Yes. Thus, it was a rather misleading statement to say that no tithing funds were used. Do you see now?Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
There is a difference between tithing and the interest accrued on tithing over the three year period it sits before being used. Conjecture, yea or nay, doesn't accomplish anything since the church does not disclose anything in the U.S. But I understand it is a law in Canada and England that they have to disclose how they spend money (not sure if they have to disclose where the money comes from, though).Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
Nephi294 wrote:Hey Flagg, I can see where your concern comes from but I just don’t think that’s the case. The Church’s real estate arm and another real estate developer (not affiliated with The Church) went in together to build the City Creek Center. The City Creek Center itself cost 1.5 billion. The money that The Church’s real estate arm receives comes from other real estate ventures.Col. Flagg wrote:Nephi, where do you think the funds the church invested that generated the interest the church used to help fund City Creek came from? Were direct tithing monies used? No. Was money generated in the form of interest that orginally derived from tithing? Yes. Thus, it was a rather misleading statement to say that no tithing funds were used. Do you see now?Nephi294 wrote:Aussie Aussie, The Church leaders said no tithing was used. So are you asserting the Leaders lied? A simple Yes or No will do. So nice of you to say I'm blind..which is not the case at all!
Reflecting on City Creek, Bishop Burton said that if he'd known seven or eight years ago that “We'd be facing the second-worst recessionary period in our history, I may have not suggested we proceed this quickly with the City Creek project. But knowing there would be on any given day upwards of 1,700 jobs in the community — and that could bless the lives of a lot of families," the church decided to move forward. And when you get the secondary impact of those 1,700 prime jobs and the multiplier effect, it is a substantial contribution to this state and this community and its tax base.”
Some here on the forum have accused the LDS Church of embracing Babylon because of the some of the stores in the mall and that alcohol is served and stores are opened on Sunday. The locations that serve alcohol and are open on Sundays are not owned by the LDS Church. Those stores or “venues” are owned by the other real estate partner which is not affiliated with The Church. The “venues” owned by The Church do not serve alcohol and are not open on Sundays. The other real estate company was Taubman Centers Inc.
In the end I think the Mall was a good real estate investment. Anywho Flagg I hope you and your Family are well.
Property Reserve, Inc. and Taubman Centers, Inc. seems like the perfect partnership.Billionaire mall mogul A. Alfred Taubman was sued by former employee Nicole Rock for sexual harrasment, discrimination, pregnancy discrimination and wrongful termination.
The 38-year-old Michigan woman worked as a flight attendant on Taubman Air Terminals from 2005 to 2011, the Detroit News reports. The lawsuit filed in federal court Thursday seeks $29 million in damages for violations of her civil rights.
The numerous instances of repeated sexual harassment listed in the suit include claims that Taubman forcibly kissed Rock, tore her shirt, touched her breasts, grabbed her crotch, forced her to touch his crotch and "attempted to perform oral sex on her without her consent " -- threatening her by screaming,"I said lay down."
When Rock became pregnant in 2009, the suit alleges, Taubman told her she "should have had an abortion," and made other harassing comments about her decision to have a baby. He told her she "ruined her f--king life" and that her "a-- has gotten wide."
Rock also claims she was forced to return to work from maternity leave a month before she was scheduled.
The Detroit Free Press has a statement from Taubman’s office:
“The allegations contained in the complaint filed in court this morning against A. Alfred Taubman are not true. Mr. Taubman will address the complaint through the appropriate legal channels."
Read the lawsuit against A. Alfred Taubman on WDIV.
88-year-old Taubman, a philanthropist who seems to maintain a lavish lifestyle, is no stranger to the courtroom. In 2002, he went to jail after being convicted for his involvement in a price-rigging scheme with Christie's art auction house during his tenure as chairman of Sotheby's.
Taubman is worth an estimated $2.9 billion as of September, according to Forbes. He's one of the wealthiest men in Michigan; see the slideshow below for the list of the richest people in the state as of March 2012.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/3 ... 13559.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps even the organization/corporation/business we call the COJCOLDS. Throwing in with the merchants and purveyors of idol worship and flaunt only really speaks highly of the actual corporation in question here if you happen to work in retail.natasha wrote:I dare say we would be hard put to find any organization/corporation/business, etc., where all affiliated were without blemish.
The Church is rich as pertaining to the things of this world. Is there need in the world? Are there those that starve, are naked, and that perish from disease? There is plenty of need. If the church has a couple billion to drop on a lavish mall, then they have the means to go into any third world country on the planet and set up "hand up" industries that could benefit millions of people with no opportunities.16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
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22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
Wisdom and order. 1.5 billion (if that was the actual cost... KSL reports that it is likely over 5 billion) on a mall (not to mention several other for profit expenditures) in the last 6 years and just over 1 billion on charitable giving in the last 32 years does not speak of wisdom and order. It speaks of a corporation that is in the business of making money far more than it is interested in saving souls. It speaks of "prophets" who had no clue that the economic crisis would hit, and that will likely press forward with this high-end endeavor despite the austerity measures that are currently being instituted by local and federal governments. It speaks of businessmen that are out of touch with what is going on in this country and in the world, as in any number of typical sub-Fortune 500 corporations.26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run bfaster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
paper face wrote:I appreciate the respectful response.
Your point about charity funds being "gone" is a little perplexing to me. Christ believed in hand outs.
From Mosiah 4:
The Church is rich as pertaining to the things of this world. Is there need in the world? Are there those that starve, are naked, and that perish from disease? There is plenty of need. If the church has a couple billion to drop on a lavish mall, then they have the means to go into any third world country on the planet and set up "hand up" industries that could benefit millions of people with no opportunities.16 And also, ye yourselves will succor those that stand in need of your succor; ye will administer of your substance unto him that standeth in need; and ye will not suffer that the beggar putteth up his petition to you in vain, and turn him out to perish.
17 Perhaps thou shalt say: The man has brought upon himself his misery; therefore I will stay my hand, and will not give unto him of my food, nor impart unto him of my substance that he may not suffer, for his punishments are just—
18 But I say unto you, O man, whosoever doeth this the same hath great cause to repent; and except he repenteth of that which he hath done he perisheth forever, and hath no interest in the kingdom of God.
--
22 And if ye judge the man who putteth up his petition to you for your substance that he perish not, and condemn him, how much more just will be your condemnation for withholding your substance, which doth not belong to you but to God, to whom also your life belongeth; and yet ye put up no petition, nor repent of the thing which thou hast done.
23 I say unto you, wo be unto that man, for his substance shall perish with him; and now, I say these things unto those who are rich as pertaining to the things of this world.
But even if it's just hand outs to feed and succor poor homeless people, then so what? Excuse me, but what is the loss of a billion dollars if even only a few lives are preserved and thereby souls are saved? Ammon and his brothers risked their lives going into the territory of the enemy to serve them and teach the gospel. Where in the church is our modern sons of Mosiah?
Wisdom and order. 1.5 billion (if that was the actual cost... KSL reports that it is likely over 5 billion) on a mall (not to mention several other for profit expenditures) in the last 6 years and just over 1 billion on charitable giving in the last 32 years does not speak of wisdom and order. It speaks of a corporation that is in the business of making money far more than it is interested in saving souls. It speaks of "prophets" who had no clue that the economic crisis would hit, and that will likely press forward with this high-end endeavor despite the austerity measures that are currently being instituted by local and federal governments. It speaks of businessmen that are out of touch with what is going on in this country and in the world, as in any number of typical sub-Fortune 500 corporations.26 And now, for the sake of these things which I have spoken unto you—that is, for the sake of retaining a remission of your sins from day to day, that ye may walk guiltless before God—I would that ye should impart of your substance to the poor, every man according to that which he hath, such as feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick and administering to their relief, both spiritually and temporally, according to their wants.
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run bfaster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
But even if you espouse the argument that this is all for the good of future giving, the ends do not justify the means as you suggest. Christ is not going to make money off of flaunt, is not going to collect rent from vendors that harrow up people's souls with desire for things that moth and dust doth corrupt. The thought is ludicrous. It is absolute folly. It is calling evil "good".
If you agree with the mall, then there is no need to pray that the Lord will keep you on the same page as the First Presidency. They built it, and now the financial future of both the Church and the interest on all of your future tithing is tied up in it. Anything owed to Taubman is part of the "debts of the president" of the church. If the economy takes another dive in Utah (likely, if you've been watching the news), the best way to keep the President solvent is to pay your tithing, and shop at City Creek. Then your clothes and jewelry will actually be emblematic of "following the prophet", indeed they will be emblems of righteousness.
Show me the books on the breakdown of that 5 billion and who paid what. You can't. So all you have is the word of the Brethren via the Deseret News. Either way, the Performing Arts Center and the Leonardo do not make up for the fact that the Church is dealing with high end retail. Idol makers and worshipers. A modern day Mammon cult. Whose fruits are what? (please answer this question)Nephi294 wrote:The 5 billion dollar figure refers to the cost of the entire Salt Lake City downtown redevelopment project, referred to as "Downtown Rising." The City Creek Center cost $1.5 Billion.
It all comes off like a "save your money for shopping" talk now. If he was really prescient of the recession that would occur in 2008 after his death, then why tie the Church's future to a shopping mall in anticipation of it? In what book is this defined as wisdom? In what scripture is there a precedent for such fruits?As for Prophets not seeing the economic storm...apparently you missed the talk given in 1998 by Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley where clear warnings about "portents of stormy weather" coming our way. Hinckley talked a great deal about the economy. Maybe you just didn't pick up on the warnings.
When you say that they do a "pretty good job", who or what are you comparing them to? The Jehovah's Witnesses? Or the widow and her mite?As for humanitarian aid and caring for the poor...I think the Church does a pretty good job. Here's a link to some good info.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS_Humanitarian_Services
What amazes me is that most believers, who have read the scriptures their whole lives, can't recognize a partnership with false gods when they see one.What amazes me is all the murmuring against the Church that takes place within our own membership.
Salt Lake City, The Church, Taubman inc, Harmons Grocery and many others invested into the "Downtown rising" project. The Church's real estate arm is always trying to keep the area around Temple Square nice and thriving like they do around all the temples. 3-5 million people visit Temple square each year..many of whom are not LDS. Unlike you I trust the Brethren. Many critics of the downtown project say tithing was used but cannot produce any fact or proof that the Church did. Nobody is worshipping any idols. In your logic anybody that visits a store is worshipping mammon right. I don't believe it.paper face wrote:Show me the books on the breakdown of that 5 billion and who paid what. You can't. So all you have is the word of the Brethren via the Deseret News. Either way, the Performing Arts Center and the Leonardo do not make up for the fact that the Church is dealing with high end retail. Idol makers and worshipers. A modern day Mammon cult. Whose fruits are what? (please answer this question)Nephi294 wrote:The 5 billion dollar figure refers to the cost of the entire Salt Lake City downtown redevelopment project, referred to as "Downtown Rising." The City Creek Center cost $1.5 Billion.
It all comes off like a "save your money for shopping" talk now. If he was really prescient of the recession that would occur in 2008 after his death, then why tie the Church's future to a shopping mall in anticipation of it? In what book is this defined as wisdom? In what scripture is there a precedent for such fruits?As for Prophets not seeing the economic storm...apparently you missed the talk given in 1998 by Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley where clear warnings about "portents of stormy weather" coming our way. Hinckley talked a great deal about the economy. Maybe you just didn't pick up on the warnings.
When you say that they do a "pretty good job", who or what are you comparing them to? The Jehovah's Witnesses? Or the widow and her mite?As for humanitarian aid and caring for the poor...I think the Church does a pretty good job. Here's a link to some good info.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS_Humanitarian_Services
What amazes me is that most believers, who have read the scriptures their whole lives, can't recognize a partnership with false gods when they see one.What amazes me is all the murmuring against the Church that takes place within our own membership.
How can't you care?
I hear this a lot.
how not care?
Don't we.care for our brother's and sisters?
Are we SO far removed from these church officials that we don't participate in the actual church?
When did it al become a corporation?
Are we just stakeholders?
Signed a contract to send money weekly in exchange for promises of wealth back?
I just don't get how a person who loves Christ and wants to help rescue and improve this world would be happy.for the money to
Did you ever ask for help?buffalo_girl wrote:How can't you care?
I hear this a lot.
how not care?
Don't we.care for our brother's and sisters?
Are we SO far removed from these church officials that we don't participate in the actual church?
When did it al become a corporation?
Are we just stakeholders?
Signed a contract to send money weekly in exchange for promises of wealth back?
I just don't get how a person who loves Christ and wants to help rescue and improve this world would be happy.for the money to
I DO care. I don't understand it anymore than I understand what the hell is going on in our state legislature. They decide to give tax breaks to BIG OIL corporations which come in here to frack the Bakken oil shale, but decide to keep high property taxes based on sky-rocketing land values. It's getting so bad, we will need to sell the land to pay the county property taxes. There is NO oil shale under our land, but everyone is in a greed frenzy even in a county with less than 3500 people, 200 miles from the 'action'.
I was poor as a single mom going to BYU and also working. I paid tithing on every dollar I earned. I ate one meal a day and fasted one day a week to get by. No one from the Church helped me. They should have. Because they did not reach out to me, I know the Lord is who saw me through every challenge.
Sad to say, I don't even think of the Church as a source of succor in time of need. I hope I'm never as blind to the needs of others as those in the Church were to mine.